chakri3
asked on
Where are we going ?
Hi all..We came from a building sized computer to a palm-top..A big room sized mainframe to a compact AS/400 mid-range machine..But even now I feel from my 2 years of experience that the way the mainframe handles data , its capability of data processing , even the best of the open system softwares , I mean JDBC, SQL server, Oracle can't handle..Now my question is where are we going...Again back to mainframes for their better handling of data or work with a better system thru' which we can utilise the better response rate of mainframe & at the same time use open systems for their well-known ease of use ? ? ?
ASKER
Hi mcrider,
thanx for your comments.. I agree that the desktops r getting faster & faster ,But I am sure they 'll not get faster enought to process huge databases like that of a Bank or an Insurance company or an Automobile company
thanx for your comments.. I agree that the desktops r getting faster & faster ,But I am sure they 'll not get faster enought to process huge databases like that of a Bank or an Insurance company or an Automobile company
When they get faster, the databases will get bigger.
ASKER
My dear OZO,
I don't see any such relationship betwn increase in speed & database size..
I don't see any such relationship betwn increase in speed & database size..
chakri3, You *don't* see the difference?? Get a 650MH system and Linux or Windows 2000! Big difference!
Cheers!®©
Cheers!®©
ASKER
mcrider,
looks like u 've misunderstood my question.. I am talking abt processing speed.I 've n't worked much on WINDOWS 2000..so I can't comment on it...But I am pretty sure it is not capable of handling huge databases...even with the combinations U gave....
looks like u 've misunderstood my question.. I am talking abt processing speed.I 've n't worked much on WINDOWS 2000..so I can't comment on it...But I am pretty sure it is not capable of handling huge databases...even with the combinations U gave....
Yes, I understand... You are comparing desktop systems to mainframes... What I'm telling you is that Windows 2000 is much more like a mainframe for example supporting 8 processors in a system (at ohh 650MH per processor).
Here are some direct quotes from microsoft:
"Symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) is a technology that lets software use multiple processors on a single server in order to improve performance, a concept known as hardware scaling, or scaling up . Windows 2000 Advanced Server supports up to 8-way SMP. Improvements in the implementation of the SMP code allow for improved scaling linearity, making Windows 2000 Advanced Server an even more powerful platform for business-critical applications, databases, and Web services. Existing Windows NT Server 4.0, Enterprise Edition servers with up to 8-way SMP can install this product.
Record-setting levels of price performance have been achieved routinely with Windows NT Server 4.0, Enterprise Edition and Microsoft expects this trend to continue with the enhancements to SMP scaling in Windows 2000 Advanced Server.
Windows 2000 Advanced Server supports up to eight gigabytes (GB) of memory with processors supporting Intel’s Physical Address Extensions (PAE). Combined with support for 8-way SMP, enhanced large memory support ensures that the most demanding memory- and processor-intensive applications can be run on Windows 2000 Advanced Server.
The Windows 2000 NTFS version 5 file system and the Windows 2000 storage subsystems let users efficiently store and retrieve ever-larger quantities of data.
The Windows 2000 supports millions of objects per domain (partition). Directory uses indexed data store for fast retrieval Optimized replication between sites and over slow network links Global Catalog provides unified view of directory objects in multiple domains Global Catalog is updated simultaneously with other replication cycles to ensure low latency Single data store and access methods for partitions and catalogs. The Windows 2000 supports large hard disks (up to two terabytes)."
Cheers!®©
Here are some direct quotes from microsoft:
"Symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) is a technology that lets software use multiple processors on a single server in order to improve performance, a concept known as hardware scaling, or scaling up . Windows 2000 Advanced Server supports up to 8-way SMP. Improvements in the implementation of the SMP code allow for improved scaling linearity, making Windows 2000 Advanced Server an even more powerful platform for business-critical applications, databases, and Web services. Existing Windows NT Server 4.0, Enterprise Edition servers with up to 8-way SMP can install this product.
Record-setting levels of price performance have been achieved routinely with Windows NT Server 4.0, Enterprise Edition and Microsoft expects this trend to continue with the enhancements to SMP scaling in Windows 2000 Advanced Server.
Windows 2000 Advanced Server supports up to eight gigabytes (GB) of memory with processors supporting Intel’s Physical Address Extensions (PAE). Combined with support for 8-way SMP, enhanced large memory support ensures that the most demanding memory- and processor-intensive applications can be run on Windows 2000 Advanced Server.
The Windows 2000 NTFS version 5 file system and the Windows 2000 storage subsystems let users efficiently store and retrieve ever-larger quantities of data.
The Windows 2000 supports millions of objects per domain (partition). Directory uses indexed data store for fast retrieval Optimized replication between sites and over slow network links Global Catalog provides unified view of directory objects in multiple domains Global Catalog is updated simultaneously with other replication cycles to ensure low latency Single data store and access methods for partitions and catalogs. The Windows 2000 supports large hard disks (up to two terabytes)."
Cheers!®©
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Suspect you overestimate corporate abuse
>they 'll not get faster enought to process huge databases like that of a Bank or an Insurance company or an Automobile company
Just how big were your big mainframe big disk drives anyway? <1GB unless you're a newbie.
The traditional bottleneck is I/O not slow Intel. Consider a bank of drives managed by a cpu.Old technology.
PCs are here to stay. Mainframes can be servers, but only where they keep up with speed/cost technology.
Thin won't win the big share. Peopl need/want flexibility, KB, big screen. Pocket-wares are nice for notes, but not for daily grind or play.
Enuf, consider your multiple questions, and the proposal, lest I think this to be pointless.
>they 'll not get faster enought to process huge databases like that of a Bank or an Insurance company or an Automobile company
Just how big were your big mainframe big disk drives anyway? <1GB unless you're a newbie.
The traditional bottleneck is I/O not slow Intel. Consider a bank of drives managed by a cpu.Old technology.
PCs are here to stay. Mainframes can be servers, but only where they keep up with speed/cost technology.
Thin won't win the big share. Peopl need/want flexibility, KB, big screen. Pocket-wares are nice for notes, but not for daily grind or play.
Enuf, consider your multiple questions, and the proposal, lest I think this to be pointless.
Hi Sunbow - nobody should underestimate the power of corporate abuse!
Could be that "thin" surprises Wintel the way they suprised IBM, and the brave new world might just belong to bandwidth providers??
I agree that some must have power and flexibility. Maybe the real mass market wants products and services that are as reliable as their phone and TV?
Regards, M
Could be that "thin" surprises Wintel the way they suprised IBM, and the brave new world might just belong to bandwidth providers??
I agree that some must have power and flexibility. Maybe the real mass market wants products and services that are as reliable as their phone and TV?
Regards, M
To add to the confusion, there has been a trend in recent years to go to thin client applications where the big monstor in the back room churns out the database. This is still the approach if you think about it for Intranet database publishing.
For the future, I think your going to see a mix of thin/thick clients. Distributed processing. Many processes are best left up to the Informix or Oracle database, while relying on these for all applications is plain stupid. Many corporations are starting to learn this as their WAN is running red hot.
Consider this, wireless Internet. Yes its here, but not very useful yet. But to demonstrate that not every application is going to be able to use the same app .... you cant get much thinner than this! It will however find its purpose in life.
Ride the wave ... you never know when its going to end. But thats part of the excitement, right?
For the future, I think your going to see a mix of thin/thick clients. Distributed processing. Many processes are best left up to the Informix or Oracle database, while relying on these for all applications is plain stupid. Many corporations are starting to learn this as their WAN is running red hot.
Consider this, wireless Internet. Yes its here, but not very useful yet. But to demonstrate that not every application is going to be able to use the same app .... you cant get much thinner than this! It will however find its purpose in life.
Ride the wave ... you never know when its going to end. But thats part of the excitement, right?
martnz, IBM is now going thin. Several announcements this week, like the PC platform will then disappear. Right.
Oracle was gonna be kingpin of thin. Right.
>power and flexibility
Power is already more that we would have hoped for. Flexibiliy is key. We want it, but actually have to much, in incompatibility. Reliability should be key. But Loss of AT&T H/W for home mad phone less reliable, but courts have indeed kept accessibility for data as if a necessity. Reliable TV is a question mark. The signal is ok, but I hear bad news on support from cable companies. Like Time Warner. And now they are AOL and RoadRunner. RoadRunner will grow, I'll wait & see if it remains viable and they actually care for support. Still, if available I'll likely sign on regardless for a personal looksee. For thin, I do not understand NT on toaster or maytag washer or drier. But perhaps on bicycle/walker exercise unit. I hear they now embed cable tv on the machine, so I suppose a computer could help censor channels, download files, and monitor your heart while exercising, but I still don't understand thin client for each household appliance.
ffarmer,
>big monstor in the back room churns out the database
That hits one nail one head. Central database still essential. Perhaps now more than ever. Attempts to distribute databases are failing for one reason or another. Main theme is Oracle at backend, and mainframes are still going that way, with one monster or another.
The mix is going in a long chain. Like an access database on LAN connected to Oracle on WAN. Or M$ SQL on LAN, whatever. Then VB gets frontended to Access. Then something else to the VB piece. Web pieces are merging into this tree at different branch levels. I prefer distributed, makes more sense to me, but the trend remains hierarchical.
We have experienced the redhot WAN from Oracle, but imho due to poor programming techniques. Too much uneeded SQL remotely, and not enough at the central box. Like 100-1000 packets to lookup rather than 1-10 packets.
Wireless? I am ready. Cellular may be poor choice, IR for LAN ok, but public may get radio for remote access at beach, in car, bathroom, etc. I'm hearing good news on that, but at moment I think you still need a big disk to hit satellite, so not very portable like cellular is.
Excitement is on rate of change. We don't wait centuries or decades for change anymore. Not years or months. Just weeks or days for media report, at work we refer to daily & hourly changes now. Except fo HDTV. When we going to get that?
>Maybe the real mass market wants
The public is into exercising control. When OS goes down, when ISP changes, when a company goes bankrupt or gets virus or loses data inevitably through some 'upgrade' - that public will retain demand to have data placed in home, preferable in pocket. For control. For privacy. For managability. To be able to run favorite stuff whether phone lines work or not. So imho, thin will have a niche, but no big endall as it puts data remotely out of control. The public controls the market buy buying games. This brings down cost of hardware like CD, now DVD, chips, VGA monitors, moving on to HD and Writable CDs. Translation - the data will remain in the home, not kept at a remote bank. If for nothing else, the public likes R&R and will $pend for it, moving the market independent of big business. Their philosophy of personal control will follow them to work. They will object to thin. They are getting more literate each day, especially due to availability of information through web and eMail. So they will express themselves to point where thin falls into its proper niche despite any CEO buyoff. Or CIO buyIn for that matter.
Oracle was gonna be kingpin of thin. Right.
>power and flexibility
Power is already more that we would have hoped for. Flexibiliy is key. We want it, but actually have to much, in incompatibility. Reliability should be key. But Loss of AT&T H/W for home mad phone less reliable, but courts have indeed kept accessibility for data as if a necessity. Reliable TV is a question mark. The signal is ok, but I hear bad news on support from cable companies. Like Time Warner. And now they are AOL and RoadRunner. RoadRunner will grow, I'll wait & see if it remains viable and they actually care for support. Still, if available I'll likely sign on regardless for a personal looksee. For thin, I do not understand NT on toaster or maytag washer or drier. But perhaps on bicycle/walker exercise unit. I hear they now embed cable tv on the machine, so I suppose a computer could help censor channels, download files, and monitor your heart while exercising, but I still don't understand thin client for each household appliance.
ffarmer,
>big monstor in the back room churns out the database
That hits one nail one head. Central database still essential. Perhaps now more than ever. Attempts to distribute databases are failing for one reason or another. Main theme is Oracle at backend, and mainframes are still going that way, with one monster or another.
The mix is going in a long chain. Like an access database on LAN connected to Oracle on WAN. Or M$ SQL on LAN, whatever. Then VB gets frontended to Access. Then something else to the VB piece. Web pieces are merging into this tree at different branch levels. I prefer distributed, makes more sense to me, but the trend remains hierarchical.
We have experienced the redhot WAN from Oracle, but imho due to poor programming techniques. Too much uneeded SQL remotely, and not enough at the central box. Like 100-1000 packets to lookup rather than 1-10 packets.
Wireless? I am ready. Cellular may be poor choice, IR for LAN ok, but public may get radio for remote access at beach, in car, bathroom, etc. I'm hearing good news on that, but at moment I think you still need a big disk to hit satellite, so not very portable like cellular is.
Excitement is on rate of change. We don't wait centuries or decades for change anymore. Not years or months. Just weeks or days for media report, at work we refer to daily & hourly changes now. Except fo HDTV. When we going to get that?
>Maybe the real mass market wants
The public is into exercising control. When OS goes down, when ISP changes, when a company goes bankrupt or gets virus or loses data inevitably through some 'upgrade' - that public will retain demand to have data placed in home, preferable in pocket. For control. For privacy. For managability. To be able to run favorite stuff whether phone lines work or not. So imho, thin will have a niche, but no big endall as it puts data remotely out of control. The public controls the market buy buying games. This brings down cost of hardware like CD, now DVD, chips, VGA monitors, moving on to HD and Writable CDs. Translation - the data will remain in the home, not kept at a remote bank. If for nothing else, the public likes R&R and will $pend for it, moving the market independent of big business. Their philosophy of personal control will follow them to work. They will object to thin. They are getting more literate each day, especially due to availability of information through web and eMail. So they will express themselves to point where thin falls into its proper niche despite any CEO buyoff. Or CIO buyIn for that matter.
You are completely right in saying the market will decide, and there is room for both.
Think about the poularity of "Hotmail" style email accounts, and "Call Minder" style answer-phones (ie that live on the Telco's computer rather than a plastic box next to my phone at home).
I suspect that "society's" reliance on (and expectation of service from) mains power and dial-tone have become very similar (and I live in a city where power to the central district failed for several days a couple of summers ago!).
Think about the poularity of "Hotmail" style email accounts, and "Call Minder" style answer-phones (ie that live on the Telco's computer rather than a plastic box next to my phone at home).
I suspect that "society's" reliance on (and expectation of service from) mains power and dial-tone have become very similar (and I live in a city where power to the central district failed for several days a couple of summers ago!).
How about this for where we're going... A giant asteroid smashes in the earth and iniliates almost everyone on the face of the planet... Bill Gates is left alive, but can't rebuild his empire because everyone he ripped ideas off of is dead...
Just a thought... ;-)
Cheers!®©
Just a thought... ;-)
Cheers!®©
>Hotmail" style email accounts, and "Call Minder
I confess I understand neither, but heard HotMail remains popular besides its problems with security an releasing personal information and virii.
The living on telco cpu I know not staus. My claim is this is not acceptable to public, as being $$$ and NOT under their personal control. A box next to your phone you can take with you to your next residence having different telco rules, and is NOT subject to telco changes rules or fee structure. OTOH - if this is accepted by masses, then my point is lost, my claim proven wrong.
Say, are they still giving you a surcharge for dialtone? Knowing it is cheaper to implement and maintain thatn rotary alternative?
>asteroid hitting
that is history
just remember now, children, MrGates is the one with the Vision that is answering this question for all of us.
martnz, I am less sure of asp's. They have to learn how to keep those critters from crashing me or I shan't subscribe.
I confess I understand neither, but heard HotMail remains popular besides its problems with security an releasing personal information and virii.
The living on telco cpu I know not staus. My claim is this is not acceptable to public, as being $$$ and NOT under their personal control. A box next to your phone you can take with you to your next residence having different telco rules, and is NOT subject to telco changes rules or fee structure. OTOH - if this is accepted by masses, then my point is lost, my claim proven wrong.
Say, are they still giving you a surcharge for dialtone? Knowing it is cheaper to implement and maintain thatn rotary alternative?
>asteroid hitting
that is history
just remember now, children, MrGates is the one with the Vision that is answering this question for all of us.
martnz, I am less sure of asp's. They have to learn how to keep those critters from crashing me or I shan't subscribe.
Am sure this is not a matter of wrong or right - both technolgies are viable and will gain or lose market share along side of each other.
Here in sunny New Zealand, local calls from a home phone are free, but you pay around US$18 per month for the line. Competition is redcing long distance call costs, but guess there is a way to go.
Interesting that we can now subscribe to a free dial-up ISP over the free local phone line - sure hope someone is making enough $ to keep this running at a reasonable service level!
Here in sunny New Zealand, local calls from a home phone are free, but you pay around US$18 per month for the line. Competition is redcing long distance call costs, but guess there is a way to go.
Interesting that we can now subscribe to a free dial-up ISP over the free local phone line - sure hope someone is making enough $ to keep this running at a reasonable service level!
As for where "we" are going... Isn't that the question microsoft keeps asking?? <G>
Anyway, with the processor speeds of the desktop going up...up...up... I don't see going back to mainframe systems. Desktops are too cheap and too fast.
Cheers!®©