Question

MP3 Tag Information: Rating Songs and Saving That Metadata to the File

Asked by: WSC

I have an mp3 music collection of about 8,300 songs. I have almost all of them tagged with the basics (title, artist, album, track, and genre) and many with album art and year.  Other information is sometimes included and for a few, I also have lyrics and album review metadata added.

I began my collection many years ago using MusicMatch until they destroyed that fine app.  I now use WinAmp pro to play, rip, organize, and tag my music.  I began just recently rating my songs with WinAmp and then discovered by accident (and to my horror) that WinAmp does not store this rating value in the songs metadata, but in a separate WinAmp-only file.  This does not suit, as I want to be able to migrate my music to any player in the future and have all of the song information already present.  I dont want to be chained to a specific application.

During my research, one source suggested that MediaMonkey (MM ver 3) and WMP both embedded the rating data.  I installed MM in a virtual environment (www.sandboxie.com) and found that it will indeed import (in batch mode) the rating information from WinAmp, and apparently embed that information into the file metadata.  I examined some of the music files (copies in the virtual box) thus imported and the Date Modified has been changed and the ratings show up correctly in MM as I made them in WinAmp, but I cant verify that the ratings values exist with other MP3 applications.  For example, WMP doesnt see the ratings at all.  It indicated that the songs had not been rated yet.

1.      Does the song rating metadata have a defined spot in the file for storage and retrieval for id3 or does it differ by the application in question?  (WMP vs. MM, e.g.)  Im sensing that this is not a standard tag field.  True?

2.      MM has its own idiosyncrasies, and Id be inclined to otherwise stay with WinAmp; Im thinking that I can just use MM to export the WinAmp-created ratings to the song tags every so often. What do you think of this idea?  Is it risky? I like that MM will import tag info from WinAmp but Im concerned there may be damage or overwritten exiting metadata by MM, especially if this is non-standard.  Or, it wont be able to be read by other mp3 apps.

3.      Any advice? Do you have any experience with MM, thoughts on my solution, or have better ideas for rating my songs and storing that data in the tag area?


System:
Windows XP, SP3, current on all patches.
Dell XPS 630i, 6mb, 3.16 Ghz, 1,333 FSB, Intel Core 2 E8500, Dual Core 6mb Cache;
4GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at RAM; 800MHz - 4 DIMMs memory

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Asked On
2009-02-06 at 14:53:02ID24121201
Tags

MP3 Rating MediaMonkey WinAmp

Topics

Digital Music and Video

,

Software MP3 Media Players

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    Answers

     

    by: MeretePosted on 2009-02-07 at 19:12:23ID: 23581833

    Yes i loved MusicMatch as well you know you can still get the old version
    http://www.oldversion.com/MusicMatch-Jukebox.html
    That's the nature of using selective media players WSC,
    each saves their playlists in their own format however over time
    Winamp does offer different playists which WMP will support
    http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/Other-AUDIO-Tools/Winamp-Playlist-Creator.shtml
    winamp play list editor
    http://advanced-winamp-playlist-copy.software.informer.com/
    http://html.software.informer.com/download-html-winamp-playlist-editor/
    http://gosoftware.org/with-playlist_tag/

     

    by: WSCPosted on 2009-02-08 at 13:28:14ID: 23585766

    Thanks Merete.  The old versions of MMJB don't sync up with the on-line databases anymore.  Too bad, huh?

    The focus of my question is on the "rating value" you can give a song, which has nothing to do with a playlist per se.  I can rate my songs on a scale of 1-5 in WinAmp, but as I noted, the value is not stored in the metadata of the file.  It's stored in a separate WinAmp file.

    Restated from above, MediaMonkey will convert that rating value in the WinAmp file to the individual music files, but I can't get it to read in iTunes or Windows Media Player.  (They don't recognize the rating value for the songs I experimentally tagged. The album title, e.g., reads the same in all of these apps.  The rating value is still blank.) Why is that?  Is there no "official" field designation for the "rating" value under id3?    If so, which application is doing it correctly?

    I didn't know that this question would be so complicated!

     

    by: MeretePosted on 2009-02-08 at 17:24:24ID: 23586723

    Hi WSC,
     from my own experience I don't believe so, ratings is not a standard id tag, but rather a personal opinion based on user input.
    I understand ratings can assist the sorting of mp3 files.
    in  ref to>Is there no "official" field designation for the "rating" value under id3?
    But take a look here
    http://forums.winamp.com/printthread.php?s=6c3474eade6d290df56a66e40adbbb1c&threadid=246869
    http://ask.metafilter.com/30021/Whats-the-best-methodsoftware-for-storingviewing-ratings-in-ID3-tags-for-mp3s
    Have you looked into the folders options like open my music folder then> VIEW go down to
    Choose Details. Add in what you'd like.
    Rightclick an empty space in this folder and then arrange by. Here's a few good settings
    I have all my mp3 in Alphabetical Folders  genres
    listed in details by date,
    I create a playlist from each of these folders genre and then cut that out and use on my desktop in a new folder.
    I am addict for Winamp as well. I bought Gforce to go with it cause of the great visuals.
    Merete

     

    by: WSCPosted on 2009-02-09 at 11:51:24ID: 23593684

    Merete,

    Thanks for the input.  Your references are good.  We both found the one at the winamp forum; that was the one that triggered for me that the Popularimeter (ID: POPM or ratings) is not stored in the tag metadata.  It seems like my dilemma is a common one and no solution seems to exist, at least not as far as I could tell.  
    For some odd reason, all app programmers have shied away from tagging this information in a consistent place in the file. Why do you suppose that is?  


     

    by: MeretePosted on 2009-02-09 at 16:41:54ID: 23596224

    Hello WSC
    Could be copyrights, I believe it's mainly becuase it's an individual rating and unless it's used for some type of marketing source  exposed to the public arena.
    These ratings options do exist but depends what you want to use it for,
     it comes down to the different types media players that are  available. Podcasts and streaming servers using a web page is very popular.
    We both know most media players have a ratings options but it only works with that gui.
    Here's an idea
    http://script.wareseeker.com/ASP/asp-mp3-lister.zip/1359

    Regards Merete

     

    by: WSCPosted on 2009-02-10 at 08:29:49ID: 23602096

    Merete,

    I'm not sure what you mean.  I want to rate a song so that I can later create playlists, etc. based on my ranking.  I'm not sure how this would impact copyrights.  I own all of these mp3's: I ripped them myself.  I've never bought a song (like via iTunes).   I want to label my music with a popularity score just as I want to tag it with the artist and album, and have that info available regardless of the application I'm using.  It's surprising the "powers that be" didn't designate an area and scale (1-5 or 1-10, etc.) for this purpose from the get-go.

    Have you used this program from ASP?

    Thanks.  WSC

     

    by: MeretePosted on 2009-02-10 at 15:48:38ID: 23606900

    Hello WSC,
    By copyrights may not be the right word, copyrights in my mind  just mean that audio tracks belong to the artists and their distributers and they push them out via Audio CD, real media to real, Itunes to quicktime wma to MS and so on ie DRM.
    The  powers that be donot distribute audio cd's in mp3 formats only CDA which can connect to CDDB.
    These DRM files are playable only in their respectiive players with the option to add star ratings and add special tags.
    mp3 however is playable in just about anything making it a broad based format not owned by anyone.

    Without DRM inbuilt into mp3 it's like a universal codec and playable in just about any media player on the market hense  there is not a lot of software to mess with the properties of mp3 so to speak.

    Maybe it boils down to this DRM. Digital rights Managers.
    If you look at the meaning of DRM.
    Digital rights management (DRM) is a generic term that refers to >> access control technologies << used by hardware manufacturers, publishers, and copyright holders to limit usage of digital media or devices
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
    cheers
    Merete

     

    by: WSCPosted on 2009-02-12 at 11:30:02ID: 23625717

    Merete,

    I know little about DRM, but that's never been a factor for me since I ripped all of my own music. I've never wanted those restrictions, so I don't play DRM-controlled music.

    Anyway, it was my understanding that mp3 tag info was driven in part by the ID3 template that was establish early-on (and updated from v1 to v2) and to a less degree by individual players in the market. E.g. MusicMatch in its hey-day created some new tag fields that are now largely adopted by its successors.  I don't think DRM had any impact here at all.  

    My reading on song ratings indicates that although there is a spot in the metadata for it, different apps interpret the data (0-255) differently, but I'm not clear on what this means or how to convert one set of ratings data to be read and understood by a different player.  As I noted in my initial case notes, MediaMonkey will convert and import the ratings from WinAmp.  I'm just surprised there's no agreement on standardizing the rating.  It's a big gap.

     

    by: MeretePosted on 2009-02-12 at 15:48:20ID: 23628317

    WSC
    I  don't know if there ever will be a standardized option made available on the basis that ratings are individual.
    There is already inplace programs for this but mainly used on sights that stream music and is given to the listener to offer their ratings via scripts and counters or imbedded media players
    http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22823
    http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/7670

     

    by: WSCPosted on 2009-02-13 at 09:57:04ID: 23635293

    I don't want to beat this to death, but all tag information is ultimately individual.  I upload mp3 metadata from a GraceNote or FreeDB when I rip a CD, but I can alter the album, artist, etc. to reflect the information I want displayed about this song.  Ratings are certainly more subjective, but I can alter any of the tag information.  

    Now, perhaps you mean the field paramters are not well defined for ratings as they are for artist or album.  That does seem to be case.  One of your sources above mentioned that "AFAIK rating is a standardized ID3 tag. At least in ID3v2.4," which is good and that "Too many bad things can happen when trying to manipulate ID3 tags."  I'm not sure what that means, but it does sound ominous.  WinAmp certains updates by ID3 tags, but I'm still puzzled as to why the ratings values can't be stored in the metadata. MM does but WinAmp not.  WMP does, but others don't read it seamlessly.

     

    by: MeretePosted on 2009-02-13 at 16:39:07ID: 23638593

    If you add the ratings at the time of the rip then it would probaly include this in the meta data.
    Take a look in the properties of an mp3 go to Summery then advanced
    This is the area where you could  possibly add in a ratings in the comments then this information is within the actual properties of the mp3 and should follow it when played in any media player.
    I gues it depends on the media player as well.

     

    by: WSCPosted on 2009-02-16 at 04:44:34ID: 23649193

    Merete,

    It's an interesting idea, but I already use the comments for other things.  And what app will read these values and interpret them correctly?  Same problem.

    Overall, based on my reading from the links I've found and the ones you located too, I think what the music community wants is for the music player providers to come together and just use the AFAIK rating or the (Popularimeter (ID: POPM or ratings)), whichever it's called, and then decide on a common interpretation.  The angst seems to be that the values can be from1 to 255; how to divvy up those potential values into a commonly-agreed-upon rating values: for example, 1 -5 stars, with half-stars permitted would suit me fine, and I suspect work for  almost everybody.  But even before then, just logging a value there for a given player would still be a good start - maybe.

    What do you suppose the problem with this is?  They agreed on the other fields?  (album, artist, track #, lyrics, etc.)

     

    by: MeretePosted on 2009-02-17 at 22:37:37ID: 23667451

    Hi WSC, looking back to your original question,
    >>This does not suit, as I want to be able to migrate my music to any player in the future and have all of the song information already present<< I think you'll agree  realistaclly not feasable unless in the future other media players will support each, can't see that happening since it's about making money.
    That is for personal use.
    An imbedded web player ( public) should work though on a site
    Winamp allows you to install plugins that can do various tasks for you. The Now Playing plugin monitors the song you are listening to and publishes the data in various ways
    http://brandon.fuller.name/archives/hacks/nowplaying/winamp/
    http://www.magnusbrading.com/mp3ts/

    And what app will read these values and interpret them correctly? << hmm depends on what you decide to use
    Below, you will find the code and working examples for two different styles of an embedded Windows Media player.
    http://www.streamalot.com/wm-embed.shtml
    And the debate goes on about ratings,
     of course Winamp would have to be the most used mp3 player in the world
    Song Ratings
    http://forums.winamp.com/printthread.php?s=29249fb82dda3d7fb4ab0dff02941ea4&threadid=272496

     

    by: WSCPosted on 2009-02-22 at 04:22:10ID: 31543888

    Merete: Thanks for all of your input.  I don't guess I got a definitive answer, which is what I wanted. But, I'm sensing that doesn't exist to anyone's satisfaction, not based on the blogs out there.   I learned from our discussion and you provided some good links.  I decided to rate my songs with WinAmp and hope that they will see their way clear to include this info in the tag some day, but I'm not optimistic.  Their reluctance is still a puzzle to me.  Hopefully I won't lose this work to a database glitch.  If you stumble across more information in the future, please report back.  Thanks again.  WSC

    20120131-EE-VQP-002

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