I don't know where the cost/muscle trade off comes out on:
(A) replacing my motherboard, memory and CPU as a package, reusing what I can from the current system; vs.
(B) upgrading the CPU and memory and adding a RAID card to this motherboard.
The downside of trying to replace the motherboard is that I've never done it - and while I'm reasonably technically proficient on the software side - I only know enough to be dangerous on the hardware side.
That said, I generally like to make infrequent major stepchanges in my system as oopposed to little steps (she was pretty state-of-the-art, for my purposes, when I bought her 4.5 year ago). If the cost of going to a new motherboard were more, butr not a lot more, and it yielded a lot more muscle, it might make sense.
I use the box primarily for:
(A) writing music (Gigastudio, Cuebase, Sibelius, migrating toward ProTools, etc.)
(B) producing videos with ProShow Producer
My ideal is:
Fastest possible combination that includes:
(a) 64 bit OS
(b) 4 GB memory
(c) ability to connect all 5 of my raptors (currently have 5 in the case)
(d) rehabilitating RAID (the inbuilt RAID controller died
As a secondary question, there are updates available for my bios - but I'm a little afraid to apply them
(a) are there risks to updating the bios?
(b) if you recommend upgrading it, are there any tips of which I should be aware?
Here's what I have:
OPERATING SYSTEM: Windows XP Professional Service Pack 3 (build 2600)
PROCESSOR: 2.20 gigahertz AMD Athlon 64; 128k primary cache; 512k secondary cache
MOTHERBOARD : ASUSTeK Computer INC. A8N-SLI DELUXE 1.XX; Clock: 200 megahertz
BIOS: Phoenix Technologies, LTD ASUS A8N-SLI DELUXE ACPI BIOS Revision 1002 11/26/2004
MEMORY: 1024 Megabytes Installed Memory
Slot 'A0': 512 MB - DDR400 (PC3200)
Slot 'A1': Empty
Slot 'A2': 512 MB - DDR400 (PC3200)
Slot 'A3': Empty
CONTROLLERS:
Standard floppy disk controller
Primary IDE Channel [Controller] (3x)
Secondary IDE Channel [Controller] (3x)
Standard Dual Channel PCI IDE Controller (3x)
DRIVES:
(5) Hard Drives: WDC WD740GD-00FLA1 (74.35 GB)
(2) DVD/CD-ROM: NEC DVD_RW ND-3520A
Floppy drive: 3.5"
DISPLAY:
(2) CONNECT 3D RADEON X300
MULTIMEDIA:
Realtek AC'97 Audio
RME Fireface 800
Thanks in advance!
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Hmmmm.... a mobo with a PATA connector for the DVDs and 5-6 SATAs for the hard drives shouldn't be hard to find, but finding one with a Floppy connector might be interesting.
Saving the raid is also going to be interesting.
Your best chance is finding an addon PCI card with the SAME chipset your mobo used.
This will at lease let you copy your data off to some place safe while you rebuile the new raid.
Not trying to save the RAID - it's toast ... just want to restore capability.
RE: MOBO change ... 2nd thoughts - I'm not up for a executing a complete MOBO replacment myself - unless iy'd s hrck of s lot easier than I think ... and I'm guessing it's more $$ than I'm interested in to have someone else do it ...
For the applications you want to use, I would agree with coral47 that a move to a Core2Duo would be very beneficial, as the things you do are processor intensive (generating audio and video, especially if you compress). The E8400 or E8500 is a good choice, providing two fast cores; you won't need anything faster than DDR2-800 RAM because the 800FSB is the limitation; and Gigabyte has some nice P45 boards such as the GA-EP45-UD3R or GA-EP45-UD3P.
Using motherboard RAID is somewhat risky, as they are not built to the same standards as discrete cards and they will use the cpu to perform any computations. If you practice regular backups, they are acceptable. I would drop support for floppies as USB memory sticks are more convenient, have much higher capacities and can still be bootable.
I hadn't realized how abismal the performance was on this thing until I came home and tried to switch back from my laptop (MacBook Pro) to this desktop .... ARGHH ...
Callandor - what am I looking at to implement your recommendation - in terms of
(a) difficulty
(b) expense
(c) what componants can I reuse from my current configuration?
Be gentle - it's my first time ...
You would need a new cpu, motherboard, and RAM.
The video card, drives, case and power supply can be reused.
The Raptors are SATA, right? There are enough connectors to handle them. You will probably have to reinstall your OS and programs clean, because this is a change from an AMD to an Intel cpu. Installing a new motherboard, cpu, and RAM is probably as difficult as it gets, but it's not really complex - you need to be methodical and exercise care. Something like this: http://www.wonderhowto.com
Cost?
An E8400 cpu is about $168
http://www.newegg.com/Prod
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R motherboard is $110, or $95 after rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Prod
4GB DDR2-800 Corsair XMS2 is $60, or $40 after rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Prod
Total cost $338 or $303 after rebates.
You can reuse everything else, but floppy drives are kind of useless these days.
The PSU sounds like it is enough.
The Gigabyte motherboard will support pretty much any 45nm or 65nm Core2 Duo or quad cpu, but the E8400 is already pretty fast.
An i7 will cost you $280 for the base model, an X58 motherboard will cost you around $200, and 6GB of DDR3 will cost you around $100, so let's say about $580.
Tough choice. Since you don't seem to be inclined to do small upgrades, the Core2 Duo is probably the best bang for your buck at the moment.
The i7 will only net you maybe a 10% increase in preformance, for almost twice the price. And who knows what will be around in another 4-5 years when you are ready to do this again.
If you think you might be wanting to upgrade the ram or cpu in a couple of years, the the i7 and DDR3 is most likely the better choice.
Thanks guys - you've both been a lot of help ... I think we're decided on the Gigabyte MOBO.
Although the last round brings new question for me about core2 Duo vs. quad core ...
I'm a major multi-tasker - I usually have several apps open at the same time; e.g. it's very likely I would have Adobe Lightroom, Photoshop, Some serious WAVE Editor and ProShow Producer all open at the same time ...
Does that affect your CPU recommendation at all? For multi tasking with several resource hog applications - what are the tradeoffs between a core2 Duo and Quad?
Do all the CPUs in this class top off at 4GB of RAM?
Then on a seperate requirement I failed to emphasize before - I need at least one firewire 800 connection for the RME fireface 800 I listed above - am I getting one out of the config we're talking about?
Thanks for all your patience ....
A Quad might not be a bad idea with all that going on. I would stay with one based on the 45nm chip. They have more L2 cache which will help. even if you get one with a little slower clock rate.
The CPUs have nothing to do with the 4 gigs of ram. That is a 32-bit OS limit. The Gigabyte will probably handle 8gigs, but filling all 4 slots can cause problems with some mobos, others will bearly blink (even among the same model)
As for Firewire, some mobos have it onboard. But the addon cards aren't that much, if you don't see one that also meets your other requirements
>it's very likely I would have Adobe Lightroom, Photoshop, Some serious WAVE Editor and ProShow Producer all open at the same time ...
A quad core would benefit these applications, both in the sense of supporting multitasking and Photoshop taking advantage of multiple cores.
>I need at least one firewire 800 connection for the RME fireface 800 I listed above
The motherboard I suggested only has Firewire 400; I don't know of any with Firewire 800 built in. You will need a separate PCI-e card http://www.newegg.com/Prod
>Do Intel MOBOs and processors pkay better together or is that irrelevant?
Irrelevant - Intel motherboards are probably better for servers, because they are more robust and have good chipsets, but at the desktop level, there is a lot of competition.
>what's the significance of "embedded", as in 9300, vs. 9400 vs. 9400s?
Are you talking about embedded cpus? I don't know what you are referring to as it pertains to 9300, vs. 9400 vs. 9400s. The "s" series are identical processors, except they run on less power.
The "embedded" term I didn't understand was from a couple of Intel's CPU comparison charts, e.g. based on the charts the only differences between the E8400 ($163) and the E8500 ($183) are that the 8400 is .16 GHz slower, but is listed as "embedded" - just made me wonder what embedded is
Comparing E8400, E8500, Q9400 and Q9550 at http://ark.intel.com/Compa
I'm flirting with belling up to the bar with an extra $50-$150 to go from the E8000 series to the Q9000 series. For my usage profile, how does .17GHz, 12M L2 cache & FSB parity stack up against $50 cheaper 6M L2 cache and "embedded"?
Finally -
>> ...wonder what embedded is
The best I can figure, it just means that uou can get that cpu in a 'soldered on' version.
On this page, it list four 8400 cpus, but only one is checked embedded:
http://ark.intel.com/Produ
Both quads are rated at 95w, so the included cooler is fine (or are you referring to the cooler you are using now?)
The 12MB cache will help some, but I don't have any numbers for you. : /
Embedded sounds to me like a dedicated hardware solution to a problem, as opposed to a general purpose computer. For example, devices used in labs or manufacturing lines. The embedded version apparently is halogen free, which I suppose means it was manufactured in a different way that doesn't use chlorine.
I would go for the 12M cache, as cache can only improve performance. If you get the retail version, you get a decent cooler with it and a longer warranty period - a year or more. OEMs (trays) are only guaranteed for 30 days and don't come with a cooler.
Your Antec Neopower 480 can probably handle it, but it only has 33a on two +12v rails, which is light for my tastes. I generally like more current so that it can handle peak draws, and skimping on a power supply is not a good idea when connecting with expensive parts. A power supply that blows up under stress can damage everything else. I stick with the Antec EarthWatts when they are on sale or I go with Seasonic.
>> Both quads are rated at 95w, so the included cooler is fine (or are you referring
to the cooler you are using now?)
Is there an included cooler? Since I didn't assemble it, I didn't know whether the fan over my current CPU came with the MOBO, the processor, or was added seperately . NewEgg claims people who bought the CPUs also tended to buy coolers like:
You
Given that Q9550 has already nearly doubled the requirements I gave you guys in the beginning, I did some research on Q9550 vs. i7 for someone who is doing alot of multi-tasking and video rendering, but not gaming. Seems like folks are leaning toward i7 - both now and strategically.
I feel quilty about how much leg work you guys have been doing, so I did some research and tried to put together an equivalent i7 platform, and I came up with a difference of $169. All things being equal - it's worth it to me to be on a significantly more upward mobile platform.
Here's what I came up with:
Q9550 platform we've come up with:
i7 equivalent:
This would leave the following questions
And if so:
Looks pretty good to me.
SLI (CrossFire) is trickier. It depends on how you use the 2 displays.
The main reason to use it is to make 2 cards act like 1 more powerful card. (nice for crunching video data in games)
If you don't need the 'horsepower' for your video projects, you can probably get away with using them as 2 separate cards.
On an unrelated note, I did see this while poking around.
###
If you are looking out and plan an upgrade with Core i7 920 ... you might want to hurry up. It is now semi confirmed that Intel
is going to axe the Core i7 920 and 940 quite soon.
Now the 940 will be replaced with the 950 and also a 975 will be launched next week to replace the 965(we'll review it). But IF the Core i7 920 is to go EOL .. there will be no 'affordable' 300 USD counterpart anymore to fill that gap
UNTIL Core i5 is released late(r) this year.
So if you where in the market for a Core i7 920 .. now's a good time to pick one up. And hopefully we'll be proven wrong.
http://www.guru3d.com/news
###
RE PSU ... Callandor expressed concern that the Neopower 480 was a little light weight. I know even less about PSU's than anything else ... but I did stumble on what appears to be a heck of a deal: "CORSAIR 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified - $89 w/ rebate (down from $159) Here's a comparison link with 3 other "5 egg" units in the same price range. http://www.newegg.com/Prod
The corsair has lots of SATA connections and a thermally controlled fan, but only 1 rail (what's a rail .... is 1 a bad thing?) Corsair claims to have been voted "Best Power Supply Manufacturer by Custom PC 2008"
>> a 975 will be launched next week to replace the 965(we'll review it).
Who's "we"
>> These kind of Qs are fun, and a nice change from the zillion Qs wanting to know why the computer won't boot.
Oh my dear, sweet, naive coral47 ... be patient & we haven't begun the actual installation ;)
I put one of those Corsairs (a 620 I think) in a rig about a tear ago for someone, and they are very happy with it.
There is a fair amount of 'discussion' over single rail or multple rails are better, but as far as I can tell, as long as you have the amps to run what's installed, either one is good.
>> Who's "we"
That is a collective 'we', refering to the readers and himself. ; )
>> ...we haven't begun the actual installation.
Ready when you are. I need a disstraction while I try to figure out what to do with these 4 systems I have spread out on the work bench. : |
Forgot:
A rail is just a 'line' in the PSU the makes/carries current. There the 3.3v rail, the 5v rail, and the 12v rail.
Before, the specs only allowed so many amps on the 12v rail, and when systems started needing more power, they added rails to get around it.
The specs have been update, so now you can get monster amps on just one 12v rail.
(the above is a loose explaination of what happened, and should not be considered very accurate)
That power supply is very nice - a single rail has the advantage that you won't run out of current if demand spikes briefly. What's more, it certified 80% efficient, which means it wastes less energy while in use. A good quality power supply is an integral part of a high performance system and will last many years.
The i7 is a better system; you were worried about finances initially so I didn't recommend it. If you can justify the better performance, it is more open to cpu upgrades in time. That's a good motherboard to use with it; it supports two video cards, so if you just want a lot of screens, two dual port video cards will give you 4 screens.
OK - the final configuration then is going to be:
Taking a step back
Thanks gents
I wouldn't worry about the wrist strap unless you get a lot of 'sparks' where you are going to build it. But some people swear by them
Otherwise 'grounding' yourself is pretty simple, just touch metal on the old computer while it is plugged in, and don't walk on carpet in just your socks. ; )
Some thermal compound should come with the cpu/heatsink, but either of those Arctics will drop the operating temps another couple of degrees, which never hurts.
The tool kit is probably overkill for a single build. Most likely you will only need a Philips head, a slot head (screwdrivers) and maybe a small pair of pliers or needlenose.
All kinds of things you can do with the spare 3.5 slot, but I would just get a snapin cover from any computer shop (they usually have boxes of them from stripped systems and in different shapes and colors). Or make a filter, so air can get in next to the hard drives to help cool them.
Front panel connectors are almost standard; companies that use the 10-pin arrangement stay with the same configuration. AMD or Intel, you shouldn't have to worry about it.
I don't think you need anything else. This should be a very fast machine: http://www.cpubenchmark.ne
Most good experts know that is a good practice and revert to it if something goes wrong. If you know the basics are good, install that same setup in the case, and boot it again. If that works, you know you don't have a grounding problem. Now add more components and boot after each addition, and you will know the minimum of what is working, until you finally get to the OS installation and can close it up. Once you have all the drivers and latest patches installed, make an image of the disk with Acronis or Ghost and save it somewhere safe. You can now restore to a pristine state without having to go through the lengthy install process again.
>> got any more where that one came from?
Everybody has has their own variations to the above, a couple of mine are:
- I keep several pieces of 1" x 1", wood, about 12" long, to put the mobo on, so air can get under it. Long way or cross way doesn't really matter, as long as thecpu socket, ram slots, and any other place that is going to get 'pressed down on' get support. It also lets any addon cards have room for the bottom tab to dangle.
- I like to go ahead and check it with all the ram installed while outside the case (after the first test boot with one).
- lay the case down flat to install the mobo. A lot easier to install 'as a floor' than 'as a wall'.
Hey guys ... let the games begin .... just posted my first installation question at http://www.experts-exchang
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by: coral47Posted on 2009-06-11 at 20:39:03ID: 24608973
Personally, I would go with a 'almost new' setup. You have a very limited upgrade path with the stuff you have now
Even the last generation Core2 Duos with a P35/X38 - P45/X48 chipset mobo, will leave your current system in the dust.
I am kind of fond of the E8400 paired with 1066MHz DDR2 ram. Get an Asus or Gigabyte mobo that has the options you need (probably the X38 or X48 chipset for plenty of SATA with onboardRaid)