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Jani72

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On board video seems to be damaged but video card not working either

I have a PC DDR266 system board M810D Series and it was working fine until someone tripped over the monitor cable and the screen went black and would not come back on.  I assumed that the on board video was damaged so I inserted a video card but it is still not working.  I was trying to disable to onboard video but I only see two Jumpers, one to clear the CMOS memory (which I tried) and the other for connecting internal USB Card Reader.  Could the motherboard have been damaged?  Does anyone have any suggestions? HELP!
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onedeej

motherboard COULD have been damaged, likely though it is the monitor, try the monitor on a different machine.
Look at the pins inside the monitor's cable..

They could be bent over and grounding the video........
For that matter the video cable could have an internal ground..

Try a different monitor next........
While it is possible that your problems will be fixed by one of the solutions provided above, I think your problem may be of an entirely different cause.  I have downloaded the motherboard manual for the PC Chips M810 series motherboards.  It mentions a BIOS settings which allows you to select the display as PCI or AGP.

The manual says:
  Primary Graphics Adapter:
    This item indicates if the primary graphics adapter uses the PCI or the AGP bus. The default PCI setting still lets the onboard
    display work and allows the use of a second display card installed in a PCI slot.

I am guessing that the replacement video card you are using is a PCI one, which is being detected as a secondary display card.  Usually, a secondary display card displays nothing right throughout the POST screen, and only starts displaying things in Windows after it has been enabled (which you cannot do because you cannot see to enable it).

From my experience, if you insert an AGP video card, it will automatically change the Primary Graphics Adapter to AGP and disable the onboard video card.  It is worth a try at any rate. I would suggest that you borrow an AGP video card to test my theory.
just be carefull and get the right agp card as there are different versions and they are not always compatible

check thaty the agp card you borrow can handle you agp slot version
Very good point I forgot to mention.  The motherboard manual says that the motherboard has an AGP 2X/4X slot.

If anyone is interested, I have put a copy of the motherboard manual at the link http://www.kingsley.id.au/810s71F[1].pdf.
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ASKER

It is not the monitor.  I tried another one on the same machine and the same thing happened.  I will try the AGP Video card.  Thanks for the advise.  Will let you know if it works.
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Check the cable, if you haven't yet, in case it was damaged - swap it for another.  The other possibility is the cable pulled on the motherboard connector so hard that a circuit trace or connector was broken.  A fault in the video circuit can prevent bootup, even if you try another video card.
The AGP vs PCI .. BIOS setting...
It's only to select which display the PC looks for first.
It will not disable Video.

If it's not on the monitor end of the cable that got tripped over or the cable itself then yes, go with damage to the video card..

Look for a physical problem first. (Hope for it too vs electrical damage!)

Before you get to into it simply remove and re-install the card.
It may have been jarred enough to simply unseat it in the slot.

Next check the solder joints between the card and the jack where the monitor plugs into it.
A joint may have seperated there.

If no-go borrow an older PCI video card and see if the basic system at least comes up.

Electrical damage might affect the AGP BUS and not just the Video card. Using a PCI video card will provide better 1/2 splitting in isolating the problem.

PCBONEZ
.
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ASKER

I have checked the physical monitor cable and there is no damage there.  In fact the monitor is working on another pc.
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ASKER

thanks PCBONEZ but I have tried the PCI Video Card option already and still the same result.
Oh Boy.. It couldn't be an easy problem could it... *smile*

Pray something just got knocked loose.

Here's what to do....

WARNING: UNPLUG the system EVERY TIME you make or break ANY electrical connection on ATX powered systems!!! ... UNPLUG FROM WALL.. Not just turn off.. (If the power supply has the switch ON IT, that works too.)

Any part in a PC that uses power can prevent a boot if it's shorted.
A short can pull so much juice from the power supply that there's none left for the system.

First remove and reinstall your memory.
Remove all cards and reinstall.
Unplug (power and data) all drives. The put it back.
(( All of this is to see if something is simply loose or a bad connection. Oxidation happens to some degree even in memory slots....)

If it works cool..

If not keep going....

~~> We are going to 1/2 split then easter egg....

~~ 1/2 split ~~

Remove all cards exept the video card..
Disconnect all drives (the power and data cables.)
Remove all but the minimum amount of memory to run the system.
Disconnect any non-essential wires. (Case LEDs, Front USB, Front speaker/MIC jacks.)
Remove the mouse and keyboard.

See if it will boot to an error screen. (You have no keyboard or drives remember....)

If it boots:
The problem is something you removed....
~ Easter egg that 1/2 ~
Add things back one at a time test booting each time.
(Don't forget that power plug!! Every time!!)
When it won't start again you found the bad guy.....

If it doesn't boot on the first try:
If possible switch the memory with some you removed earlier and try again.
If it boots now you have a bum memory module.

If not it could be:
Power Supply
Mainboard
Processor
(Memory module if you only had one to use.)
In rare cases the monitor....

~ Easter egg that 1/2 ~~

You'll have to swap things one at a time to find the problem..
(You can try your parts in another system too in narrowing it down.)

What's first depends on your resources..

G'd Luck

Let us know~~~~~
PCBONEZ, if you had looked at the motherboard manual that I have already posted a link to above, the motherboard has an onboard video card, which is the video 'card' we believe is causing the problem.  The same fault occurs with a different monitor, so either the monitor is not the problem, or there are multiple problems.

Assuming the monitor works, we can try testing by inserting an AGP video card into the machine.  From my experience, an AGP card will disable the onboard video card and become the primary (and only) video card.  According to the manual for this particular motherboard, inserting a PCI card will install it as a secondary video card.  This will cause the motherboard to continue to try to display the post screen on the onboard video card, which doesn't work.

As I have already mentioned, it is highly likely the display will appear if an AGP 2X or an AGP 4X video card is used.  If that is the case, the problem is solved, if not, we can try reinserting everything and spend several hours fiddling with everything else in the computer (and probably causing more problems) as you have suggested.  Can't we try the simple solution first?
Nah, I didn't see the manual up there.
Nor do I feel like downloading it to read it at the moment.
Don't need one for the basic TS/R I described. It's basic.

It's my understanding that an AGP card is not immediately available at the scene.

We can twiddle our thumbs waiting for one in order to try the 'simple solution' first.

Or we could eliminate some other potential problems as we wait....

Pardon my mentality..
I'm used to the situation where if my equipment isn't working people die.
~ So make it go NOW is how I think....


PCBONEZ:
Firstly, Jani72 has not mentioned how experienced he is with computers and their internals.  While he may be quite comfortable pulling the case off and reinserting the RAM, etc. he may not be.

I realise that there could be other problems, and if that is the case, then we need to follow the track you are suggesting.  I can also understand you often need a PC working again ASAP, but if you read what has already been posted, you may see why I am suggesting the AGP card replacement course of action:

>> Jani72
I assumed that the on board video was damaged...

Jani72 then tried a PCI video card, which didn't work.

>> AlanKingsley:
The manual says:
  Primary Graphics Adapter:
    This item indicates if the primary graphics adapter uses the PCI or the AGP bus.  !!!
The >>default<< PCI setting still lets the onboard display work (which we believe is damaged) and allows the use of a second display card installed in a PCI slot.
!!!

>> PCBONEZ
The AGP vs PCI .. BIOS setting...
It's only to select which display the PC looks for first.
It will not disable Video.
...
If no-go borrow an older PCI video card and see if the basic system at least comes up.
(This has already been tried.  It did not work.)

>> AlanKingsley
From my experience, an AGP card will disable the onboard video card and become the primary (and only) video card.  According to the manual for this particular motherboard, inserting a PCI card will install it as a secondary video card.  This will cause the motherboard to continue to try to display the post screen on the onboard video card, which doesn't work.


I have setup three separate projection computers with dual monitors, so I know something about the intricacies of having a second video card.

To expand on what I have already said:
Generally, although not always, the primary video card displays everything on screen until Windows loads.  Once someone has booted into Windows with a second monitor for the first time, they use the primary display (in our case the onboard one which doesn’t work) to enable the secondary video card and extend the desktop onto the secondary monitor.  From that point onwards, the secondary monitor begins displaying things (but still only in Windows).

Some computers have an alternate configuration; they duplicate the display across both screens whilst the computer boots up.  This does not appear to be the case here.

If my previous experience is correct, then it will not matter what we do, the computer will refuse to work unless we either:
  a) Replace the motherboard with the onboard video card:
         This is both expensive and difficult for a beginner.
  b) Repair the onboard video card:
         This will be very difficult, if not impossible, especially for someone with little electrical experience.  This is also not likely to be economical.
  c) Use an AGP video card to override the onboard video:
          This is easy, cheap, quick and simple.

The reason this is necessary:
The AGP slot is not a bus, but a port – there can only be one AGP video card at a time.  The onboard video card is an onboard ‘128-bit AGP Graphics Accelerator’ based on the SiS730S chipset – essentially a hardwired AGP card.  We can thus conclude that inserting an AGP video card MUST disable the onboard video card.  On the other hand, inserting a PCI video card will install a secondary video card (as the manual mentions), which will behave in the manner described above.

Basically, if what I understand is correct, the AGP card is the only easy way to fix this problem.  I could be wrong, but I doubt it.  Also, the more things you change in a computer, the more things there are to go wrong, especially if the person making the changes has limited computer experience.

PCBONEZ, you may have been in the computer industry for 20+ years and the electronics industry for a further 10, but most of the people asking questions on Experts Exchange do not have that advantage.

I think most people can justify waiting a day or two to try a simple solution on their home computers, but that is up to the owner of the computer.
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PCBONEZ
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Good point on the power supply there.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I was feeling a bit argumentative after a long day at work (note time zone difference in Australia), but that is no excuse for taking it out on others.

As you mentioned, the difficulty with a computer that has experienced a shock is that anything could go wrong, and possibly multiple things.
~~ AlanKingsley ~~
No worries... I apologize too... I'm just up to late...
I'm glad you guys worked it out - everyone benefits when we pool our knowledge together.  Now we need to wait for further info.
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ASKER

You guys are great...first of all I just want to let you know that Jani72 is a female :) and not a guy but please don't let that make a difference.

The computer is booting but there are no beeps.  All the lights come on fine....the only problem is that nothing shows on the monitor...that's why I had narrowed it down to a problem with the onboard video.

I have some experience and would be able to strip the computer and put it back together.  I have been trying to borrow a AGP video card as AlanKingsley suggested but have had no success so far and the cost of  a new one I really do not want to incur especially since I am not sure it will work.  If I do not get one by this weekend I will have to "1/2 split the Easter egg" which PCBONEZ suggested.  I hope I got that right....hahahaha
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ASKER

Had to change motherboard.