Question

200 wireless clients, temporary location

Asked by: kabrutus

I need to setup a temporary wireless network for about 200 devices.  I will be setting this up in a hotel ballroom.  there will be 2 wired drops for internet but i need to cover a huge range of space.  I was thinking of useing some wireless bridges so i can have them connect wireless to the wifi router and then service their area.  I need to know of some decent wifi products that you can recommend me purchase.  I dont really want to go the cisco route because of price, but i hear sonicwall and 3com makes good products at affordable rates.  If you feel strongly about cisco, send them too.

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Asked On
2009-09-28 at 16:13:24ID24768595
Tags

wireless

,

bridge

,

router

,

WDS

,

Range Extenders

Topics

Wireless Networking

,

802.11 Wireless Access Points

,

Wireless Network Cards & Adapters

Participating Experts
2
Points
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Comments
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Answers

 

by: callpetePosted on 2009-09-28 at 16:29:52ID: 25444538

You will want to budget no more than 40 users per AP. Several small APs in separate areas will serve you best, if that is feasible. If you end up with APs that have two antennas, make one vertical and one horizontal.  The laptops with the antennas built into the frame of the display will connect best to the vertical ones, and the USB/PCMCIA cards will connect best to the horizontal antennas.

Is this a temporary setup for an event, or permanent? Do you need to set up authentication or is it free? Do you need to drive the users to an "announcement" hotspot page? Do you want to firewall filter and content filter the traffic or just NAT?

I like Mikrotik for a very customizable and high-availability and affordable solution.




 

by: kabrutusPosted on 2009-09-28 at 16:37:00ID: 25444575

I just got more information.  This is completely temporary.  It is going to be just a wireless network with WPA.  They will have 1 server sending updates to the wireless clients.  I think the will have 1 or 2 wired drops from the sever and the others will need to be connected to those wired drops wireless.  I cant run any cables to the other ap's because the client doesn't want a bunch of cables running around.  I would like to be able to connect those wireless.  No splash page.  Just WPA

 

by: callpetePosted on 2009-09-28 at 20:33:21ID: 25445789

WPA seems like a lot of trouble to connect 200 wireless clients, but it sounds like you will be limited to a single AP.
I would suggest putting one of these antennas against a wall
http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=SA24-180-14&eq=&Tp=
It is a 180degree sector, and should fill a large auditorium nicely with the radio waves.

You will need a processor intensive AP to process all of the WPA, and all of the requests.
The Routerboard 1000 has a fast PPC processor
http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RB1000&eq=&Tp=

You will need a wireless MiniPCI card for that AP.
http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=SR71-12&eq=&Tp=
Supports 802.11B, G, and N. If your clients support N, you can have 100mbps throughput theoretically.

You will also need a pigtail (the cable from the wireless miniPCI card to the side of the case) and a jumper cable (the N-type connectors big coax from the case to the antenna)

This is probably a $1000+ industrial grade solution that I am describing here. If you want to go cheaper, there are canned solutions that don't require the programming that this one does, but may not give you the performance, either.


For cheaper AP bridge solutions, especially if you can get cieling access, see
http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=EAP-3660&eq=&Tp=
It looks like a smoke detector, but is actually a 600mw antenna. For $100 it might work for you.

You will want to consider how much data you plan to transfer, how long the users will stay connected, and if you will also be providing internet access, or just "server" access.

 

by: kabrutusPosted on 2009-09-28 at 22:22:09ID: 25446243

Would WEP lighten the load on the wifi device?  I think the devices are 200 iphones.  I currently own about 10 apple airport extremes but i am not sure this will do the job.  My biggest issue is the wireless bridge connection where i cant run a cable to it.  I dont know if i will be able to use the devices you recommended.  Do you know of any 3com, cisco, or sonicwall devices?  Is netgear completely out of the question?

 

by: callpetePosted on 2009-09-29 at 02:49:16ID: 25447220

Airport, netgear, 3com and Cisco are all going to work fine, and 10 airports should cover a large room better than 1 "anything" but if you are limited to 1 device, you need something with a higher broadcast power.

Most "consumer grade" APs (netgear, airport, etc) have an AP with 60 to 100 mW outpout. The commercial gear that I was referring to is 600mW, and good for several miles links. Commercial grade AP's will also handle more simultaneous connections. A netgear will most likely drop significant number of packets by the time you get 25 users connected, where you might see over 100 connected users on a commercial "carrier class" AP before you see that kind of problem.
Most retail consumer "home" routers and AP bridges like what you describe have a 100mhz processor and 16M RAM. The Routerboard I described has 512M RAM and a 1333Mhz Power PC Processor. You can run RouterOS on more RAM and a faster (intel, AMD) processor if you need more connections/fancier routing.

http://www.mikrotik.com/wireless_faq.html

Another advantage to using a Mikrotik Router is that you can limit each user to a slower connection speed, and get more users on at a time. Since you are talking iPhones (802.11G), you can limit each connection to 256kbps instead of 54000kbps and make more simultaneous links than with an airport, since the airport will link 54Mbps with each unit, and only has a 100Mbps (or even 1Gbps) link to the server, so 2 or 20 connections will max out your ethernet pipe anyway.
200 256k users will only use a max of 512Mbps, which should negotiate over a gigabit link back to the server.

I don't think you will find a retail "consumer grade" AP with that capability. What happens there, is that without a speed limit on the AP, with EVERYONE connecting full speed, packets get dropped. 200 users sending and receiving data at 54Mbps will mean that the 1st 10 to connect will get a mediocre connection and most will get nothing. 200 users with 200 relatively slow queues will probably mostly all get some bits.

Instead of WPA or WEP, since the link is just to connect the iPhones to the private server to get firmware upgrades, is there a reason you don't want to leave it wide open? Any encryption that you do on the wireless side will slow your overall  throughput a little. A little x 200 turns into a lot. Besides, that you will have to (it sounds like) have to give an encryption key to 200 individuals in this event. You won't have a lot of real hacker defense on the wireless side of things anyway, I wouldn't think. Securing the server data would be a higher priority if this is an event for the "public" anyway. Without knowing more about the venue, I cannot really make encryption recommendations.

 

by: nappy_dPosted on 2009-09-29 at 03:05:40ID: 25447299

You could also take a look at dd-wrt on linksys wireless routers. You could slap on high gain antennas for increased coverage.

 

by: callpetePosted on 2009-09-29 at 03:07:53ID: 25447309

the DD-WRT will improve the power level, but you won't have the queue control, and you are still dealing with a 16M or 32M RAM limitation.  

 

by: kabrutusPosted on 2009-09-29 at 07:10:05ID: 25449192

I see.  I am not limited to 1 device.  This is all going to 1 ballroom with the sever serving some kind of information update to the a iphone app.  I can use as many ap's as i want, but some of them will have to be connected wirelessly to other ap's.  i am thinking of using WDS.  

I took a look at the links you provided and i am a little confuised on how that setup works.  These ap's look like they go on top of a building.  And if i am correct you are saying all i need is 1 ap for all 200 clients?  

 

by: callpetePosted on 2009-09-29 at 09:46:15ID: 25450900

No I would recommend budgeting no more than 40 clients per AP, but if you need to connect all 200 to 1 AP, you need a very robust one.

WDS should work, but will double your wirelesss traffic for each WDS AP you implement, since EVERY AP rebroadcasts EVERY packet for it to work properly. (i.e. it will seem slow and choppy) If you do WDS, every AP will be on the same channel. If you can wire every AP, you will want to use channels 1, 6 and 11, with all of the channel 1 AP's as far away from the other channel 1 APs as possible, etc. For example, if you can run wires around against the walls, possibly in the ceiling, placing one every 50 to 100  feet, use channel 1, then 6, then 11, then 1, then 6, then 11, etc all the way around.

 

by: callpetePosted on 2009-09-29 at 09:47:27ID: 25450913

The links I gave were for WISP type equipment, which can mount outside, and shoot to clients up to several miles away. They work indoors as well.

 

by: kabrutusPosted on 2009-09-29 at 11:30:10ID: 25451834

Can you list all the products and quantities i would need.  Even accessories.  I need to put a quote together and come up with a rough estimate on hardware.  How difficult is it to configure?  Is it web based or would i have to use a command line?

 

by: callpetePosted on 2009-09-29 at 13:57:43ID: 25453389

The site I sent you to is a reputable WISP equipment vendor. If you call them, they can quote you on a turn key package with all of the configuration already done. If you tell them what you are planning to do, they should be able to give you an exact quote. I don't hesitate to recommend them.

 

by: kabrutusPosted on 2009-09-30 at 14:56:51ID: 25464073

Do you think i can use a few of these to do the job?
Cisco Aironet 1140 Series Access Point-Dual-band 802.11a/g/n

 

by: nappy_dPosted on 2009-09-30 at 15:17:50ID: 25464204

They are over a $1000 a piece(I know I have three of them on my site).  Is is worth it?

If you get them add the Wireless LAN controller, you can create a hotel/airport style hotspot for authentication

20120131-EE-VQP-002

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