New Server Configuration Recommendation

What is the budget? Do you only need hardware or OS as well?

K

No OS, ONLY hardware.  Budget is about 5K, few dollars more or less (obviously the less the better!).

Forgot to ask you rack or tower? I guess it is gonna be tower, am I right?

K

For that budget, your best shot is going for a Dell box instead of HP. I would prefer HP over Dell but you may have to run a bit over your budget with HP ML370.
The configuration can be like this:
- 4 - 8GB of memory configured with /PAE in boot.ini
- Dual processors and power supply is needed
- 3X146GB SAS and scsi controller is needed
- RAID 5 is OK and budgetary for your case so go for it
- Make sure you have DRAC installed if you choose to go for Dell. HP has ILO feature built in for its servers so no worry about it.

I suggest you to contact both HP and Dell to have their quote with the above configuration and go from there.

K

Yes you guessed right, a tower for now.  I had contacted an HP rep and they have recommended the following configuration.  Please let me know what you think:

-Configurable- HP ProLiant ML370 G5 Tower Server
HP 1000-W Hot-Plug Power Supply
Three hot-plug fans standard
Dual embedded NC373i Multifunction Gigabit Network Adapters
Integrated Lights Out 2 (iLO 2) Standard Management
3 years parts, labor and onsite service (3/3/3) standard warranty.
HP ProLiant ML370 G5 Tower Server
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5110 (1.60GHz, 1066 FSB) Processor
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5110 (1.60GHz, 1066 FSB) Processor
4GB Fully Buffered DIMM PC2-5300 4X1GB Memory
HP 72GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 15,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 72GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 15,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 146GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 10,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 146GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 10,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 146GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 10,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 146GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 10,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP Smart Array E200/64 Controller
HP 1000-W Redundant Hot-Plug Power Supply (NEMA)
Hot Plug Redundant Fan Kit
48x IDE CD-ROM Drive

NOTE: The idea is to have the OS (together with the Program files and the SQL logs) on RAID 1 using the 72GB drives and the databases on RAID 5 using the 146GB drives.

I also had the following questions:
1) Why do you prefer HP over Dell?
2) In my own custom built box I have an independent drive solely for OS Page file, is that a good idea?  Is there much of a performance gain?
3) I will be putting this server in my workspace right next to my desk).  How quite is it?  Is there a difference in noise levels between the tower and the rack?  Does one run cooler than the other?

Thank you for all your help in advance.

Thank you very much for the well detailed and informative answer.

Also, to clarify, the above configuration is a little over 5.5K but if i understand you correctly, it is well worth it!

I just found out to set up RAID5 on the E200 it cannot be E200/64 and it has to be E200/128.  But then the price difference between the E200/128 and the P400/256 is only $100.00.  So i guess thta would be the way to go, right?

Yes, if it's configure to order from HP. If you get it off a reseller they might not be able to do CTO in which case there isn't a Xeon® 5110 model available any more, 5120 is the lowest CPU in the entry models and the base models are mainly quad core nowadays. You're probably better off with a slightly faster single quad-core rather than 2 * dual cores anyway and it might be a bit cheaper although HP have "smart buys" that vary from country to country.

http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/12478_na/12478_na.html is probably what your reseller specs from.

If the price between E200 and P400 is $100, I would choose P400. The reason I did not ask for P400 primely just your budget. Well, If you want to get a conventional server with proper redundancy, it's hard to play with dollars. For redundancy, I will choose 2 dual core procs instead of 1 quadcore. Check with the sale to see if you can bring down the price by playing with the memory so you can have budget to upgrade your controller. For processors, I think they are currently the cheapest for ml370. Last time I contacted HP 2X2GB of mem seems to be cheaper than 1X4GB (they may still have that option).

K

4 * 1GB is slightly faster than 2 * 2GB since you can do bank interleaving. 1 * 4GB isn't supported as the DIMMs come in pairs.

Why would you choose 2 duals over a quad?

A quad is still one processor vs 2 dual cores are physically two processors. It's better if you have dual quad, if not, 2 dual is still my choice. Plus, the budget is limiting him to choose the most bargain processors so he can fully populatate his HD within budget.

4GB isn't supported as the DIMMs come in pairs....
I am a bit unclear about this. Does it mean there is no 2X2GB memory configuration?

K

A quad is actually two physical processors, just google images of clovertown. It's different in the AMD range of course since with two physical packages you get two memory controllers but with Intel there's only one north bridge.

You might be right on the price though, depends if esabet can get the two-for-one refund, same goes with double RAM refund.

>>4GB isn't supported as the DIMMs come in pairs....
>I am a bit unclear about this. Does it mean there is no 2X2GB memory configuration?

We're talking at cross-purposses I think, I refer to a 4GB kit which has 2 DIMMS in it as 2*2GB.

I am talking about Intel. I wouldn't run AMD in my core servers. I would do desktop with AMD. Alright, let me clear it one more time; Intel quad core is a single physical processor with 4 cores http://www.intel.com/technology/quad-core/index.htm

K

Looks like two physical processors in a single package to me.

www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/quadcore/images/2006.int.qua.txt.EN.13x18.jpg, http://images.tomshardware.com/2006/12/06/quad-core-xeon-clovertown-rolls-into-dp-servers/clovertown-without-heatspreader.jpg

But they are sharing Front Side Bus whereas two dual cores have two separate FSBs. Unless, FSB will be replaced with other technology that directly commnunicate to processors, if not, I still don't like sharing FSB. It's just opinion since there is no clear performance advantage in either one in our case (one quad vs two dual).  However, two duals may save some cost. It's clearly quad cores going to replace dual cores, but the idea is having two quad cores instead of one just in case some problem arise from FSB, you are still good to go with one processor.

K

Two FSBs? But they both run into a single arse-end-bus chipset AFAIK. Unless it has a crossbar-switch added on to join CPU-A to RAM-B it's still a single FSB chip with two CPUs going into it??

Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't see any benefit of two dual-cores over one quad using P5000 chipset,

Not that it is relevant for esabet's server since all they need is a load of disks and raid plus NICs and they have that already in their BoM; any CPU will do for fileserving.

Hi guys, Sorry I was out of the loop for a while since I have been overwhelmed with other work!.  

I went online and checked the price of the processors and if I am correct the Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5310 is even less expensive than Dual-Core Intel® Xeon® Processor X5110.  Now I did not call HP to price this but, if that is the case why not go for the E5310?  Am I missing something?

Also, it is true, after checking with HP, 4MB (2 x 2MB) is less expensive than 4MB (1 x 4MB) but I am not certain why my reseller specified it that way?

Lastly, is there a preference to buy through a reseller than direct from HP (or Visa Versa)? Given from what found out I can buy it cheaper direct from HP!

You're not missing anything, the price does not reflect the performance but it reflects the quantity they make and sell, coupled to HP's two for one offer prices are oftan out of kilter performance-wise.


Two smaller dimms are cheaper than one big one, the really big DIMM kits (2*4GB or 2 * 8GB) are more than the cost of the rest of the server.

I very much doubt the cost is cheaper direct from HP than through a reseller, HP's price has the double RAM offer bundled into it whereas the reseller's price you claim back the cost of the second pair of DIMMs from HP so that cost appears on their invoice even though you claim rebate back from the manufacturer. I'm not sure what refund offers you get in USA, in EMEA they're offering refund of the cost of double RAM, double CPU and disk if you buy through partners. Of course your reseller might be trying to make more margin than is good for him, show him HP's price and tell him to beat it.

I am sorry if I am confused but so to sum it up:

  1) Performance wise, am I better off with TWO E5310 than TWO X5110 processors?

  2) Performance wise, am I better off with 2 x 2GB Ram than 4 x 1GB Ram?

Finally, with regard to the pricing, when I contacted the HP via online CHAT, they told me that if I order the Server via the chat session today (and today ONLY) she can give me an additional 10% off.  I am not sure what kind of game that is and what is the difference between today and tomorrow?  But assuming my reseller is willing to match the price, would you say I should buy it through the reseller?  And what if the reseller is more expensive, then what?

1. I'd rather two slower quads for most processes since almost all server apps are multi-threaded. But it's a fairly close call.

2. 4*1GB is faster slightly than 2 * 2GB due to CAS precharge delay (you can pre-charge 4 ranks rather than 2). I'm not going into the full technicalities of ranks here.

3. I'm a VAR so am biassed in favour of the reseller/distribution chain so don't believe my answers!
HP online sales may be having a "spiff" day. We have them here, our HP rep comes in and the sales people get an extra bonus on whatever they sell that day only. It's just a marketing ploy but as far as you are concerned just get the cheapest.

It depends on the relationship between you and the reseller, if the price is the same, it doesn't matter. I always go with my reseller because of the company partnership policy.  I am going for the cheapest price as well. If 2 Quad core is the same price with 2 Dual Core, I would go for it. Otherwise, 2 dual cores is better than 1 quad core, to me (Andy may disagree with me on this).

K

I personally prefer to work with a reseller too.  A reseller gives me that additional support, someone that is easier to call if something goes wrong as oppose to calling HP and speaking to a foreign spoken technician. LOL

Thank you very much for all the help.  I will keep you posted of any further questions that I may have before I finally pull the trigger!

Ok, I have taken all your recommendation to heart and here is the final configuration.  Please give me your final words:

Configurable- HP ProLiant ML370 G5 Tower Server
HP ProLiant ML370 G5 Tower Server
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5345 (2.33GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 2x4MB L2 cache) Processor
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5345 (2.33GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 2x4MB L2 cache) Processor
HP 4GB Fully Buffered DIMM PC2-5300 4X1GB Memory
HP 72GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 15,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 72GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 15,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 146GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 10,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 146GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 10,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 146GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 10,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP 146GB Hot Plug 2.5 SAS 10,000 rpm Hard Drive
HP Smart Array P400/256 PCIe Controller
HP 1000-W Hot-Plug Power Supply
Three hot-plug fans standard
Hot Plug Redundant Fan Kit
Dual embedded NC373i Multifunction Gigabit Network Adapters
16x DVD-ROM Drive (Carbon)
Integrated Lights Out 2 (iLO 2) Standard Management
3 years parts, labor and onsite service (3/3/3) standard warranty. Certain restrictions and exclusions apply.

Also as for life span, how long before you guys think this machine would become obsolete?

B.T.W. This machine costs about $5500 direct from HP, what do you think?

$5500 is a real sweet deal (very)with that configuration, indeed. The server life cycle normally about 4 years since purchase. You may be able to drag it to the fifth year, but it depends on your software and OS compatibility. It depreciates to $0 in the fifth year and you may have a risk of finding a motherboard or other things if it is failed.

K

We have customers still running 8 year old Proliants so I don't see it going obsolete soon, if you run out of space you can even add a second 8 disk bay in future.

Don't get me wrong, I still see a lot of people still running Windows NT nowadays. It depends on how critical you put your business on hand. As an IT engineer, I would recommend you to follow the System Development Life Cycle. I will not risk my position in fighting with the quick migration because there is no replacement part....

K

Agreed; however Proliants are so popular that you can buy a replacement server on eBay 8 years down the line and pull the required parts out of it. One of the advantages of buying from a popular manufacturer rather than a cheap clone maker.

Thank you very much for all the help but one last question, thought not directly a hardware question:  Which operating system would you recommend more: Windows Server 2003 Enterprise or Windows Server 2008 Enterprise?

For server support related to problem and resolution, you should go for Windows 2003 Enterprise for now and upgrade to 2008 Enterprise once you complely tested 2008. Windows 2008 is relatively new and not many people experiencing in troubleshooting problem in it including MS. I would not yet put my production on 2008 until I fully tested and qualify it. Plus, the later OS will hog more resources due to heavy kernel and color...

K

That is what i suspected.  Thanks for the help.