Does Jesus care more about Joe techie finding a solution to his dilemna than he does about starving children?
Why is it that people think "Jesus answered my prayer" when they find a great parking spot in a crowded lot, get the last Playstation 3 for Christmas, or discover the solution to their problem at work? Does Jesus care more about answering prayers for these petty things than he does the prayers of a mother watching her child die of starvation?
Things like this...
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/22036601/Sharepoint-List-Restrictions-are-not-working.html
...show me that Christianity is shallow and self-indulgent. Am I wrong?
Things like this...
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/22036601/Sharepoint-List-Restrictions-are-not-working.html
...show me that Christianity is shallow and self-indulgent. Am I wrong?
Callandor
Err, how much do you really know about this person and what he believes, based on that single posting? If you can, you're a better detective than Sherlock Holmes. Open up an investigative firm and present your findings in courts of law, and make lots of money. But I would first suggest a better sampling theory to back up conclusions.
For some misinformed religious folks,
If anything good happens, they'll attribute it to their deities;
"Thank God/Jesus/Allah for that!"
Likewise, if the opposite happens, it's usually blamed on the other entity;
"The devil must be behind this!"
It's not the religion's fault, just some misplaced faith.
If anything good happens, they'll attribute it to their deities;
"Thank God/Jesus/Allah for that!"
Likewise, if the opposite happens, it's usually blamed on the other entity;
"The devil must be behind this!"
It's not the religion's fault, just some misplaced faith.
cjones_mcse,
As I think Wwysdom is suggesting, this has nothing to do with any particular religion.
It reflects people's shallow veiw of religion, not religion itself.
And it reflects the fact that many people have no concept of holiness - which is the separation between the divine and the common.
As I think Wwysdom is suggesting, this has nothing to do with any particular religion.
It reflects people's shallow veiw of religion, not religion itself.
And it reflects the fact that many people have no concept of holiness - which is the separation between the divine and the common.
Thanks, for refining my point, WaterStreet.
Hi Wwysdon
:-))
Here is more of an explanation along the same line of thinking from one of my favorite authors who also has a way with words that I don't:
"Although Neal Stephenson seems to relish the detritus of modern global pop culture, often making it both the subject and the raw material of his cascading fiction, he is clearly no fan of its effects on human beings. In "In the Beginning Was the Command Line" he declares: "The only real problem is that anyone who has no culture, other than this global monoculture, is completely screwed. Anyone who grows up watching TV, never sees any religion or philosophy, is raised in an atmosphere of moral relativism, learns about civics from watching bimbo eruptions on network TV news, and attends a university where postmodernists vie to outdo each other in demolishing traditional notions of truth and quality, is going to come out into the world as one pretty feckless human being. ..."
From: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Island/3102/neals.htm
:-))
Here is more of an explanation along the same line of thinking from one of my favorite authors who also has a way with words that I don't:
"Although Neal Stephenson seems to relish the detritus of modern global pop culture, often making it both the subject and the raw material of his cascading fiction, he is clearly no fan of its effects on human beings. In "In the Beginning Was the Command Line" he declares: "The only real problem is that anyone who has no culture, other than this global monoculture, is completely screwed. Anyone who grows up watching TV, never sees any religion or philosophy, is raised in an atmosphere of moral relativism, learns about civics from watching bimbo eruptions on network TV news, and attends a university where postmodernists vie to outdo each other in demolishing traditional notions of truth and quality, is going to come out into the world as one pretty feckless human being. ..."
From: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Island/3102/neals.htm
Funny, Canale Grande, my mother used to say that about me, watching endless American cowboy films on the TV in the late fifties. And her mother said it about her, listening to endless radio programs.
In fact I never wore a mini-skirt at home in Belgium, and never ever at gramps in Luxembourg, that would have brought shame on the family. And as to listening to the English pop-station "Radio Luxembourg" (on, as we used to say, 208 motor cycles, your (always over-emphasised) "friendly" station, well, that was sheer junk.
As far as post-modernists vieing to outdo each other it was high time that universities were no longer the pillars of the establishment. There is nothing more elitist than a don.
But back to the question. Yes, many sects of Christianity are self-indulgent, and a few are shallow, and usually both at Christmas time.
In fact I never wore a mini-skirt at home in Belgium, and never ever at gramps in Luxembourg, that would have brought shame on the family. And as to listening to the English pop-station "Radio Luxembourg" (on, as we used to say, 208 motor cycles, your (always over-emphasised) "friendly" station, well, that was sheer junk.
As far as post-modernists vieing to outdo each other it was high time that universities were no longer the pillars of the establishment. There is nothing more elitist than a don.
But back to the question. Yes, many sects of Christianity are self-indulgent, and a few are shallow, and usually both at Christmas time.
pretty sure that waterstreet is saying that people that ONLY have pop culture are messed up.
Big Rat, you obviously had more inputs then just cowboy films.
Big Rat, you obviously had more inputs then just cowboy films.
oh:
> I found the solution.
> The credit has to go to the Lord Jesus who answered my prayer.
> 500 points to him!
Is this a problem for the moderators?
> I found the solution.
> The credit has to go to the Lord Jesus who answered my prayer.
> 500 points to him!
Is this a problem for the moderators?
ASKER
First, Callandor, I said it was things like that post. I made no claim to know anything at all about that individual. I do see this type of thing from the majority of Christians I know in the United States, though. I grew up Christian, lived most of my life as a Christian in the conservative South, and finally had my fill. I've got plenty of experience with Christianity to legitimately pose the question I did. It's not directed to that particular individual, but to the type of mentality that type of comment is usually indicative of. This person could have been making a joke. I doubt it though. This isn't the type of forum for that type of joke.
This is far from a "pop culture" ideology. I see the claim that people who believe Jesus answers every little prayer are "misinformed religious folk." So of course, there is then one branch of religion that is correct in its dogma to the detriment of all others? I know that in the area where I lived as a Christian, the "pray for all things" theology is widely accepted. Everything from your High School football team winning to President Bush being elected was the will of "God" and your prayers held a direct outcome on all of these things.
So obviously those that have posted so far don't hold to this idea. Why not? Doesn't the bible say that you can ask anything in his name and he will do it? (John 14:14, 16:24, 1 John 3:22, 5:14) Doesn't "anything" MEAN "anything"? If you choose to interpret differently, why is your interpretation any more valid than those who believe in the "Prosperity Gospel", taking what is said in the Bible completely literally? If you choose to interpret more figuratively, how do you know what should be figurative and what should be literal? You can say you are guided by the "Holy Spirit", but that's just more subjective personal opinion. Anyone can say they are "lead by the Spirit" to see the "truth" in scripture and make it support nearly any view they like.
So then, if Jesus is not more concerned with Joe techie’s work resolution than with starving children, why doesn’t he answer the prayers that are so imminently crucial and feed the children before they die? The only logical answer is that he doesn’t answer prayers. We’ll leave the reason why he doesn’t answer prayers up to personal interpretation. Why not? After all, religion is completely personal interpretation.
I know there are those who think differently and that’s who this question is directed toward. If Jesus does indeed answer prayers, why is he not answering those that most need it? Why does he pick and choose to answer the prayers of a wealthy woman in the United States who is dying of cancer to heal her over the prayers of the mother of an innocent starving child in El Salvador to feed them? Why can’t he just answer both? Why does he NEVER answer the prayer of an amputee for the renewal of his lost limb?
This is far from a "pop culture" ideology. I see the claim that people who believe Jesus answers every little prayer are "misinformed religious folk." So of course, there is then one branch of religion that is correct in its dogma to the detriment of all others? I know that in the area where I lived as a Christian, the "pray for all things" theology is widely accepted. Everything from your High School football team winning to President Bush being elected was the will of "God" and your prayers held a direct outcome on all of these things.
So obviously those that have posted so far don't hold to this idea. Why not? Doesn't the bible say that you can ask anything in his name and he will do it? (John 14:14, 16:24, 1 John 3:22, 5:14) Doesn't "anything" MEAN "anything"? If you choose to interpret differently, why is your interpretation any more valid than those who believe in the "Prosperity Gospel", taking what is said in the Bible completely literally? If you choose to interpret more figuratively, how do you know what should be figurative and what should be literal? You can say you are guided by the "Holy Spirit", but that's just more subjective personal opinion. Anyone can say they are "lead by the Spirit" to see the "truth" in scripture and make it support nearly any view they like.
So then, if Jesus is not more concerned with Joe techie’s work resolution than with starving children, why doesn’t he answer the prayers that are so imminently crucial and feed the children before they die? The only logical answer is that he doesn’t answer prayers. We’ll leave the reason why he doesn’t answer prayers up to personal interpretation. Why not? After all, religion is completely personal interpretation.
I know there are those who think differently and that’s who this question is directed toward. If Jesus does indeed answer prayers, why is he not answering those that most need it? Why does he pick and choose to answer the prayers of a wealthy woman in the United States who is dying of cancer to heal her over the prayers of the mother of an innocent starving child in El Salvador to feed them? Why can’t he just answer both? Why does he NEVER answer the prayer of an amputee for the renewal of his lost limb?
ASKER
Sunbow:
oh:
> I found the solution.
> The credit has to go to the Lord Jesus who answered my prayer.
> 500 points to him!
Is this a problem for the moderators?
--------------------------
ROFL!
Does Jesus have an account?
Haha!
oh:
> I found the solution.
> The credit has to go to the Lord Jesus who answered my prayer.
> 500 points to him!
Is this a problem for the moderators?
--------------------------
ROFL!
Does Jesus have an account?
Haha!
I dunno, there was one with longer name like that in other TAs, while as you ask it, it could be a common name, but what was used was something like "JesusIsGreat" only longer, lengthier, used often. Maybe it was a "JesusIsGreatGreaterGreate
OTOH, in this TA, which came later, someone with Avatar name of "God" did show up. I think it was simple single comment/question to let us know who is still around. It showed up early in our (TA) history, then vanished, never to be recorded the same here ever again.
Our God never picked on anybody, or argued, or anything like that, AFAIK.
OTOH, in this TA, which came later, someone with Avatar name of "God" did show up. I think it was simple single comment/question to let us know who is still around. It showed up early in our (TA) history, then vanished, never to be recorded the same here ever again.
Our God never picked on anybody, or argued, or anything like that, AFAIK.
Callandor > Err, how much do you really know about this person and what he believes, based on that single posting?
> jakibe -- Jak I Be
Q7> 10/24/2006 Open
Q6> 08/05/2006 Closed by CetusMOD: Forced accept.
Q5> 06/10/2006 Closed
Q4> 04/05/2006 Deleted
> jakibe -- Jak I Be
sure sounds self-indulgent, I missed that part of the question
> ...show me that Christianity is shallow and self-indulgent. Am I wrong?
Perhaps not irrelevant is recent news (or not so) about a someone else, maybe a year ago, somewhere around DC USA, changed his name legally to Jesus Christ. In media he seemed decent enough, while clearly indulging. What made it a story was that whil the first several steps were completed, and I forget which ones were which now, a couple remained, where he was refused, went to court and lost, then was appealing a decision and that put it in the news I saw. Or maybe one state accepted but the next one did not.
It was like he had home in new name, SSN in name, birth record, but not vehicle or phone or something, and he wanted it all. A Jesus lover, not freak or replacement or spokesman or something. Still, it sounds rather selfish.
Not too interesting, the "Jak I Be" person posted another Q in incorrect thread, wherefrom it got moved/corrected by one Callandor
> jakibe -- Jak I Be
Q7> 10/24/2006 Open
Q6> 08/05/2006 Closed by CetusMOD: Forced accept.
Q5> 06/10/2006 Closed
Q4> 04/05/2006 Deleted
> jakibe -- Jak I Be
sure sounds self-indulgent, I missed that part of the question
> ...show me that Christianity is shallow and self-indulgent. Am I wrong?
Perhaps not irrelevant is recent news (or not so) about a someone else, maybe a year ago, somewhere around DC USA, changed his name legally to Jesus Christ. In media he seemed decent enough, while clearly indulging. What made it a story was that whil the first several steps were completed, and I forget which ones were which now, a couple remained, where he was refused, went to court and lost, then was appealing a decision and that put it in the news I saw. Or maybe one state accepted but the next one did not.
It was like he had home in new name, SSN in name, birth record, but not vehicle or phone or something, and he wanted it all. A Jesus lover, not freak or replacement or spokesman or something. Still, it sounds rather selfish.
Not too interesting, the "Jak I Be" person posted another Q in incorrect thread, wherefrom it got moved/corrected by one Callandor
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Jesus+Christ%22+%22name+change%22&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=nw
cbs5.com - Jesus Christ Wants To Drive
May 7, 2005 1:03 pm US/Pacific
(AP) CHARLESTON, W.VA Jesus Christ is hoping to move to West Virginia, but he’s having trouble getting a driver’s license.
The man is described as a white-haired businessman who’s been using that name for 15 years without a problem. He has a U-S passport, Social Security card and Washington driver’s license bearing the name Jesus Christ.
But he still falls short of West Virginia title and license requirements, since his Florida birth certificate bears his original name. Plus, the man born as Peter Robert Phillips Jr. still hasn’t gotten an official name change approved in Washington.
A District of Columbia judge denied the legal change two years ago, saying the name could provoke “a violent reaction” or “significantly” offend people. An appeals court ruling last month, however, will start that process anew.
Christ’s attorney says the name change was an effort to express his faith.
[well, at least a couple of neurons didn't misfire]
Judge Lets Man Change Name to Jesus Christ
Dec 23 6:43 PM US/Eastern
By SAMUEL MAULL
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK
A Manhattan man's holiday spirits soared to celestial heights Friday when a judge gave him permission to change his name to Jesus Christ.
Jose Luis Espinal, 42, of Washington Heights, said he was "happy" and "grateful" that the judge approved the change, effective immediately. Espinal said he was moved to seek the name change about a year ago when it dawned on him, "I am the person that is that name."
Espinal, who acted as his own lawyer, got the change approved by Manhattan Civil Court Judge Diane Lebedeff, who said she was "satisfied that this application is neither novel, nor would granting it pose practical problems."
The judge said name change applications usually are not denied just because the change might cause practical difficulties or be thought unwise, as long as a person with the same name does not object to the proposed change.
She cited a 2001 Utah case in which a man legally changed his name to "Santa Claus" and a Washington, D.C., case earlier this year in which a name change applicant obtained a driver's license and Social Security card in the name of "Jesus Christ."
Judge accepts new 'Jesus Christ'
By TRACY CONNOR
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
She wasn't playing God - but a Manhattan judge agreed yesterday to let a Manhattan man change his name to Jesus Christ.
Jose Luis Espinal, 42, of Washington Heights was in heaven after Civil Court Judge Diane Lebedeff approved his application, just in time for Christmas.
"I am that person," he told the Daily News at the apartment he shares with his mother and a parakeet named Chi Chi. "Basically, my lifetime work is fulfilling the Scripture."
The former Mr. Espinal, who sported blue jeans and sandals, said he considered other biblical names but decided Lamb of God just didn't have the same ring.
"There are some very deep, deep issues with this name change. Some of it may be very difficult to comprehend and deal with," he said.
The self-proclaimed prophet isn't the first to take Christ's name. Earlier this year, a Washington man got a driver's license and Social Security card as Jesus.
Lebedeff said she gave the green light to Espinal's name change after determining it wouldn't cause any "practical problems."
She noted that he cited his "private religious beliefs" as the reason he wanted to make the switch.
"He stated no desire to use his proposed name to secure publicity, to proselytize, to fund-raise or advise others that he had been cloaked by the courts or government with a religious authority," the judge said.
Originally published on December 23, 2005
cbs5.com - Jesus Christ Wants To Drive
May 7, 2005 1:03 pm US/Pacific
(AP) CHARLESTON, W.VA Jesus Christ is hoping to move to West Virginia, but he’s having trouble getting a driver’s license.
The man is described as a white-haired businessman who’s been using that name for 15 years without a problem. He has a U-S passport, Social Security card and Washington driver’s license bearing the name Jesus Christ.
But he still falls short of West Virginia title and license requirements, since his Florida birth certificate bears his original name. Plus, the man born as Peter Robert Phillips Jr. still hasn’t gotten an official name change approved in Washington.
A District of Columbia judge denied the legal change two years ago, saying the name could provoke “a violent reaction” or “significantly” offend people. An appeals court ruling last month, however, will start that process anew.
Christ’s attorney says the name change was an effort to express his faith.
[well, at least a couple of neurons didn't misfire]
Judge Lets Man Change Name to Jesus Christ
Dec 23 6:43 PM US/Eastern
By SAMUEL MAULL
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK
A Manhattan man's holiday spirits soared to celestial heights Friday when a judge gave him permission to change his name to Jesus Christ.
Jose Luis Espinal, 42, of Washington Heights, said he was "happy" and "grateful" that the judge approved the change, effective immediately. Espinal said he was moved to seek the name change about a year ago when it dawned on him, "I am the person that is that name."
Espinal, who acted as his own lawyer, got the change approved by Manhattan Civil Court Judge Diane Lebedeff, who said she was "satisfied that this application is neither novel, nor would granting it pose practical problems."
The judge said name change applications usually are not denied just because the change might cause practical difficulties or be thought unwise, as long as a person with the same name does not object to the proposed change.
She cited a 2001 Utah case in which a man legally changed his name to "Santa Claus" and a Washington, D.C., case earlier this year in which a name change applicant obtained a driver's license and Social Security card in the name of "Jesus Christ."
Judge accepts new 'Jesus Christ'
By TRACY CONNOR
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
She wasn't playing God - but a Manhattan judge agreed yesterday to let a Manhattan man change his name to Jesus Christ.
Jose Luis Espinal, 42, of Washington Heights was in heaven after Civil Court Judge Diane Lebedeff approved his application, just in time for Christmas.
"I am that person," he told the Daily News at the apartment he shares with his mother and a parakeet named Chi Chi. "Basically, my lifetime work is fulfilling the Scripture."
The former Mr. Espinal, who sported blue jeans and sandals, said he considered other biblical names but decided Lamb of God just didn't have the same ring.
"There are some very deep, deep issues with this name change. Some of it may be very difficult to comprehend and deal with," he said.
The self-proclaimed prophet isn't the first to take Christ's name. Earlier this year, a Washington man got a driver's license and Social Security card as Jesus.
Lebedeff said she gave the green light to Espinal's name change after determining it wouldn't cause any "practical problems."
She noted that he cited his "private religious beliefs" as the reason he wanted to make the switch.
"He stated no desire to use his proposed name to secure publicity, to proselytize, to fund-raise or advise others that he had been cloaked by the courts or government with a religious authority," the judge said.
Originally published on December 23, 2005
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/20458784/Do-I-exist.html
https://www.experts-exchange.com/M_924647.html
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Origins of life .. me of course.
Didn't you read my book ?
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/20458784/Do-I-exist.html
Title: Do I exist ?
asked by GoD on 01/15/2003
Why am I not the Number 1 Expert in this TA.
Please donate your points to me .. help make me No. 1.
I am GoD after all.
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Origins of life .. me of course.
Didn't you read my book ?
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/20458784/Do-I-exist.html
Title: Do I exist ?
asked by GoD on 01/15/2003
Why am I not the Number 1 Expert in this TA.
Please donate your points to me .. help make me No. 1.
I am GoD after all.
Accepted Answer from Nata
Date: 02/16/2004
This is an abandoned question and is now being closed with no refund.
Thanks to all participants for your time and comments.
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cjones_mcse,
Please note the change I made to your quote below. I made it refer to G-d, instead, so I could discuss it
"I know there are those who think differently and that’s who this question is directed toward. If [G-d] does indeed answer prayers, why is [He] not answering those that most need it? Why does [He] pick and choose to answer the prayers of a wealthy woman in the United States who is dying of cancer to heal her over the prayers of the mother of an innocent starving child in El Salvador to feed them? Why can't [He] just answer both? Why does [He] NEVER answer the prayer of an amputee for the renewal of his lost limb?"
1. The key part is "why is He not answering those that need it most?"
There is a presumption here that a human would know (better than G-d) where His help is needed the most.
We humans don't know the answer.
2. You could have also asked "why doesn't He just help everyone and eliminate poverty, eliminate suffering, create world peace, etc."
The presumption for an all-powerful G-d and all-knowing G-d is that He has His reasons and chooses not to.
Why? We don't know.
There is a saying: "If I knew G-d, I would be G-d"
Please note the change I made to your quote below. I made it refer to G-d, instead, so I could discuss it
"I know there are those who think differently and that’s who this question is directed toward. If [G-d] does indeed answer prayers, why is [He] not answering those that most need it? Why does [He] pick and choose to answer the prayers of a wealthy woman in the United States who is dying of cancer to heal her over the prayers of the mother of an innocent starving child in El Salvador to feed them? Why can't [He] just answer both? Why does [He] NEVER answer the prayer of an amputee for the renewal of his lost limb?"
1. The key part is "why is He not answering those that need it most?"
There is a presumption here that a human would know (better than G-d) where His help is needed the most.
We humans don't know the answer.
2. You could have also asked "why doesn't He just help everyone and eliminate poverty, eliminate suffering, create world peace, etc."
The presumption for an all-powerful G-d and all-knowing G-d is that He has His reasons and chooses not to.
Why? We don't know.
There is a saying: "If I knew G-d, I would be G-d"
cjones_mcse,
You may have had plenty of experience with Christians in your life, but how did you extend that to a generalization about Christianity in general? Are the people that you met representative of all Christians in the world? Have you met any of the 50 million Christians in China? Any of the millions in Africa? How about those who live in New York, where I am?
So you saw a posting that made you think poorly of Christianity. Without thinking about the possibility that it isn't representative, how is that different from those who make generalizations about blacks because they saw some bad examples, or about muslims because of what they read in the papers? And what about the prayers of a mother watching her child die of starvation? Are you in a position to know what the response was? If it was caused by the actions of evil people, should God intervene? Why stop there - shouldn't God intervene everytime you do something wrong? How far should God go to stop evil?
You may have had plenty of experience with Christians in your life, but how did you extend that to a generalization about Christianity in general? Are the people that you met representative of all Christians in the world? Have you met any of the 50 million Christians in China? Any of the millions in Africa? How about those who live in New York, where I am?
So you saw a posting that made you think poorly of Christianity. Without thinking about the possibility that it isn't representative, how is that different from those who make generalizations about blacks because they saw some bad examples, or about muslims because of what they read in the papers? And what about the prayers of a mother watching her child die of starvation? Are you in a position to know what the response was? If it was caused by the actions of evil people, should God intervene? Why stop there - shouldn't God intervene everytime you do something wrong? How far should God go to stop evil?
Hello all,
I have had more than my fair share of this same type of conversation with more than there are listed on this post. I must state very clearly that I am not imposing Christianity on anyone here, but I will firmly state what I personally know to be true.
The common misconception with Christianity and Religion is this. Playing the role or really knowing Jesus Christ as a friend, a savior, a person reflecting his Father, our Father. Religion burns people because it was and still is created by people. People fail at all they do, nothing we do in life is without flaw.
A Christian that truely loves the Father of all (God) and believes that his Son died on a cross long ago and is walking in the power and guidence of the Holy Spirit would act like God instead of him/herself.
Long story short, a follower of Jesus would be humber in spirit, strong in truth, not self seeking, loving, patient, kind, and deffinetly not selfish as to what started this whole post.
God can answer any prayer, doesn't mean he has to. What Christians need to be reminded of, like a child, is that there are 3 forces at work in this world. God, Humans, and the prince of darkness. When we are self seeking tangle materialistic things, we may give God credit, but I can see him shaking his head, maybe thinking, how we beleived for a item so much that our faith in ourselves is what got us that item, not him. The bible says there is death and life in the power of the tongue. Anyone that believes that is a powerful individual indeed.
Thanks for your time all,
Ryan
I have had more than my fair share of this same type of conversation with more than there are listed on this post. I must state very clearly that I am not imposing Christianity on anyone here, but I will firmly state what I personally know to be true.
The common misconception with Christianity and Religion is this. Playing the role or really knowing Jesus Christ as a friend, a savior, a person reflecting his Father, our Father. Religion burns people because it was and still is created by people. People fail at all they do, nothing we do in life is without flaw.
A Christian that truely loves the Father of all (God) and believes that his Son died on a cross long ago and is walking in the power and guidence of the Holy Spirit would act like God instead of him/herself.
Long story short, a follower of Jesus would be humber in spirit, strong in truth, not self seeking, loving, patient, kind, and deffinetly not selfish as to what started this whole post.
God can answer any prayer, doesn't mean he has to. What Christians need to be reminded of, like a child, is that there are 3 forces at work in this world. God, Humans, and the prince of darkness. When we are self seeking tangle materialistic things, we may give God credit, but I can see him shaking his head, maybe thinking, how we beleived for a item so much that our faith in ourselves is what got us that item, not him. The bible says there is death and life in the power of the tongue. Anyone that believes that is a powerful individual indeed.
Thanks for your time all,
Ryan
First off, let me start by saying that I am an ordained Christian minister. No one person can speak for all the Christians of the world or each different branch of Christianity. However, I will attempt to address the questions put forth by cjones_mcse and WaterStreet:
>>Why is it that people think "Jesus answered my prayer" when they find a great parking spot in a crowded lot, get the last Playstation 3 for Christmas, or discover the solution to their problem at work? Does Jesus care more about answering prayers for these petty things than he does the prayers of a mother watching her child die of starvation?
Things like this...
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/22036601/Sharepoint-List-Restrictions-are-not-working.html
...show me that Christianity is shallow and self-indulgent. Am I wrong?
> 1. The key part is "why is He not answering those that need it most?"
>There is a presumption here that a human would know (better than G-d) where His help is needed the most.
>We humans don't know the answer.
>2. You could have also asked "why doesn't He just help everyone and eliminate poverty, eliminate suffering, create world peace, etc."
>The presumption for an all-powerful G-d and all-knowing G-d is that He has His reasons and chooses not to.
>Why? We don't know.
--- I would answer this by saying that all things come from and flow through The Lord. Generally speaking, Christians believe that you should thank The Lord for all things in your life, be it good or bad because it is all a part of God's plan. Even solutions to Sharepoint problems... Jesus does not care more about Sharepoint issues than about starving children, but He has a plan for that starving child. And it may be to die at that age, or perhaps it is not. We do not know what those plans are and the plain truth about it is that that guy found the answer to his Sharepoint problem on his own by persevering enough to find the solution and not relying on others to answer it for him. God helps those who help themselves, so if you take that into account he has thanked Jesus and it is appropriate... not sure about assigning 500 points to Jesus though :) It is not self-indulgent, actually the polar opposite, he has thanked and given credit to Jesus not to himself.
God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer isn't the one we hope for or expect.
>>Why is it that people think "Jesus answered my prayer" when they find a great parking spot in a crowded lot, get the last Playstation 3 for Christmas, or discover the solution to their problem at work? Does Jesus care more about answering prayers for these petty things than he does the prayers of a mother watching her child die of starvation?
Things like this...
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/22036601/Sharepoint-List-Restrictions-are-not-working.html
...show me that Christianity is shallow and self-indulgent. Am I wrong?
> 1. The key part is "why is He not answering those that need it most?"
>There is a presumption here that a human would know (better than G-d) where His help is needed the most.
>We humans don't know the answer.
>2. You could have also asked "why doesn't He just help everyone and eliminate poverty, eliminate suffering, create world peace, etc."
>The presumption for an all-powerful G-d and all-knowing G-d is that He has His reasons and chooses not to.
>Why? We don't know.
--- I would answer this by saying that all things come from and flow through The Lord. Generally speaking, Christians believe that you should thank The Lord for all things in your life, be it good or bad because it is all a part of God's plan. Even solutions to Sharepoint problems... Jesus does not care more about Sharepoint issues than about starving children, but He has a plan for that starving child. And it may be to die at that age, or perhaps it is not. We do not know what those plans are and the plain truth about it is that that guy found the answer to his Sharepoint problem on his own by persevering enough to find the solution and not relying on others to answer it for him. God helps those who help themselves, so if you take that into account he has thanked Jesus and it is appropriate... not sure about assigning 500 points to Jesus though :) It is not self-indulgent, actually the polar opposite, he has thanked and given credit to Jesus not to himself.
God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer isn't the one we hope for or expect.
https://www.experts-exchange.com/M_25635.html, they'll be the first points he's earned.
Callandor > Why stop there - shouldn't God intervene everytime you do something wrong? > How far should God go to stop evil?
Not at all.
My take on it is that we have, for better or worse, been given the chance to make our own choices, where there can be an outcome that may be favorable, in our eyes, or unfavorable, in our eyes.
Were a god to intervene and eliminate the choice, life would not be worth living. Were a god to eliminate a 'bad' choice, to save us from it, how would we ever learn any difference. Taking away our right or ability to learn would have to be the evil thing, not the allowing for us to learn from mistakes.
Also, as we learn, we may change our own minds about what had been thought of as favorable or unfavorable outcomes. As it is, we can build from both. Without it, we get nothing.
As to the initial link, the poster gave first praise to himself, and had never mentioned the prayer that may or may not have been answered.
The person may not be self indulgent. We can only comment on the known aspects of the case, not the potential stuff - that'd take a belief.
Not at all.
My take on it is that we have, for better or worse, been given the chance to make our own choices, where there can be an outcome that may be favorable, in our eyes, or unfavorable, in our eyes.
Were a god to intervene and eliminate the choice, life would not be worth living. Were a god to eliminate a 'bad' choice, to save us from it, how would we ever learn any difference. Taking away our right or ability to learn would have to be the evil thing, not the allowing for us to learn from mistakes.
Also, as we learn, we may change our own minds about what had been thought of as favorable or unfavorable outcomes. As it is, we can build from both. Without it, we get nothing.
As to the initial link, the poster gave first praise to himself, and had never mentioned the prayer that may or may not have been answered.
The person may not be self indulgent. We can only comment on the known aspects of the case, not the potential stuff - that'd take a belief.
SunBow,
I'm glad those questions of mine got you thinking about what such a universe would look like. If God is a God of absolute justice, any evil that exists would need addressing, and most of us fall into the "not so perfect" category. The other alternative is a robot world where there are no choices, and hence no evil.
I'm glad those questions of mine got you thinking about what such a universe would look like. If God is a God of absolute justice, any evil that exists would need addressing, and most of us fall into the "not so perfect" category. The other alternative is a robot world where there are no choices, and hence no evil.
We may each be on a separate path in a common maze, thinking our way through and out.
Suppose we were just robots, puppets, where every action of puppet came from outside influence, but somehow we were wired to think that the robot's movements were made based on our own choice. All our memories have nothing to do with us, but are associated to the known history of the robot, we even think we are the robot.
That would be cruel, too cruel.
repharasing > If God is a God of absolute justice, most of us fall into the "not so perfect" category that would need addressing.
Always. No magic words or signs or symbols allowed to cheat the outcome of being held responsible for actions and inactions.
> Does Jesus care more about answering prayers for these petty things than he does the prayers of a mother watching her child die of starvation?
Tough to call when one knows not entire history. What if mother refused to work, and kicked out the father telling him to go to war and leave them alone, and what little food is found is placed in her mouth first, any not fitting that placed into reserve. She then prays the others will be well fed and left under her care. Her care? She cares? What prayer that with what options.
Answer: Why not, although petty is rather ... petty when it comes to looking for a miracle and then bragging one created it.
Suppose we were just robots, puppets, where every action of puppet came from outside influence, but somehow we were wired to think that the robot's movements were made based on our own choice. All our memories have nothing to do with us, but are associated to the known history of the robot, we even think we are the robot.
That would be cruel, too cruel.
repharasing > If God is a God of absolute justice, most of us fall into the "not so perfect" category that would need addressing.
Always. No magic words or signs or symbols allowed to cheat the outcome of being held responsible for actions and inactions.
> Does Jesus care more about answering prayers for these petty things than he does the prayers of a mother watching her child die of starvation?
Tough to call when one knows not entire history. What if mother refused to work, and kicked out the father telling him to go to war and leave them alone, and what little food is found is placed in her mouth first, any not fitting that placed into reserve. She then prays the others will be well fed and left under her care. Her care? She cares? What prayer that with what options.
Answer: Why not, although petty is rather ... petty when it comes to looking for a miracle and then bragging one created it.
ASKER
So Callandor, you’re going to tell me you’ve never prayed for something petty? You’re going to tell me that when you received a positive answer to your petty prayer you never thanked God or Jesus for it? When you received this answer to your petty prayer, did you not completely believe that God was the source of the answer? For those of us that were indoctrinated into Christianity at an early age, this behavior is to be expected. We’re told from the time we’re born that God is the reason we’re here, that God is in control of everything, that if we pray to God, he’ll answer. Yes, we’re also told that sometimes the answer may not always be yes, and of course we’re told that everything works according to God’s will.
Some generalizations are dead on the money, no matter how much you’d like them not to be. The generalization I’m making here is one of those. It’s rooted in the foundation of the Christian religion and human nature. The Christian religion tells us “ask and you shall receive.” Human nature tells us “ask for things that will satisfy my needs.” Sure, you’ll ask for world peace, an end to famine (unless you’re a G-Dubya-ite in which case war and famine mean the apocalypse is coming and Jesus will soon return), and your poor lost Uncle Andy to find salvation. But if you’re not a complete sociopath, these are still things that you WANT. They are your personal desires, and the answering of these prayers will fulfill some need of yours. It’s the blatantly petty requests that draw attention to the faults in the system.
Callandor, let’s not be disingenuous. You know as well as I do that there are millions of children on this planet who are starving and whose parents love them and have done nothing to deserve their plight other than deign to continue living. Caused by the actions of evil people? Please tell me how any infant can be evil and deserving of such a fate. There are yet again millions of individuals with deep faith in God who are dying of some incurable illness and yet God does nothing. These people serve God to their dying breath, but you’ll claim evil is the cause of their sickness and subsequent demise? Or do you claim that God saves all those who are not evil? He answers the prayers of every faithful soul that cries out to him to save them from their impending doom. Is this what you believe?
How far should God go to stop evil? Well, seeing that the Christian religion teaches that God is the creator of all things, it follows that God created evil. The Christian religion teaches us that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” If indeed God did create evil, then it is God’s fault that we have sinned and fallen short. The Christian religion teaches us that those who do not accept his “sacrifice” of atonement will be punished for all eternity. Thus, the God who created all things, including evil, punishes his creation for something that is his own doing. Given this, God should do everything within his power to stop evil. After all, he unleashed it on the world and plans to torture for all eternity those of us who fall prey to it.
Waterstreet, an omnipotent God should have no problem helping wherever he is needed. There should be no question of “Where am I needed most?” Is it presumption to assume that an all powerful, loving, Father God would help a mother with a starving child over Joe techie and his Sharepoint problem?
I think maybe the saying should be “If I knew the mind of God, I would be God.” Simply knowing God shouldn’t imply the need to be God. Of course, no one truly even knows God in the familiar sense. They’ve never been able to introduce him to anyone if they do anyway.
RHutzel and ParadiseITS, replies to your responses go further into the realm of dogma and doctrine than I want to get into here. For the sake of the question, I have to accept your responses at face value. Maybe I’ll post another question to address them later.
Some generalizations are dead on the money, no matter how much you’d like them not to be. The generalization I’m making here is one of those. It’s rooted in the foundation of the Christian religion and human nature. The Christian religion tells us “ask and you shall receive.” Human nature tells us “ask for things that will satisfy my needs.” Sure, you’ll ask for world peace, an end to famine (unless you’re a G-Dubya-ite in which case war and famine mean the apocalypse is coming and Jesus will soon return), and your poor lost Uncle Andy to find salvation. But if you’re not a complete sociopath, these are still things that you WANT. They are your personal desires, and the answering of these prayers will fulfill some need of yours. It’s the blatantly petty requests that draw attention to the faults in the system.
Callandor, let’s not be disingenuous. You know as well as I do that there are millions of children on this planet who are starving and whose parents love them and have done nothing to deserve their plight other than deign to continue living. Caused by the actions of evil people? Please tell me how any infant can be evil and deserving of such a fate. There are yet again millions of individuals with deep faith in God who are dying of some incurable illness and yet God does nothing. These people serve God to their dying breath, but you’ll claim evil is the cause of their sickness and subsequent demise? Or do you claim that God saves all those who are not evil? He answers the prayers of every faithful soul that cries out to him to save them from their impending doom. Is this what you believe?
How far should God go to stop evil? Well, seeing that the Christian religion teaches that God is the creator of all things, it follows that God created evil. The Christian religion teaches us that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” If indeed God did create evil, then it is God’s fault that we have sinned and fallen short. The Christian religion teaches us that those who do not accept his “sacrifice” of atonement will be punished for all eternity. Thus, the God who created all things, including evil, punishes his creation for something that is his own doing. Given this, God should do everything within his power to stop evil. After all, he unleashed it on the world and plans to torture for all eternity those of us who fall prey to it.
Waterstreet, an omnipotent God should have no problem helping wherever he is needed. There should be no question of “Where am I needed most?” Is it presumption to assume that an all powerful, loving, Father God would help a mother with a starving child over Joe techie and his Sharepoint problem?
I think maybe the saying should be “If I knew the mind of God, I would be God.” Simply knowing God shouldn’t imply the need to be God. Of course, no one truly even knows God in the familiar sense. They’ve never been able to introduce him to anyone if they do anyway.
RHutzel and ParadiseITS, replies to your responses go further into the realm of dogma and doctrine than I want to get into here. For the sake of the question, I have to accept your responses at face value. Maybe I’ll post another question to address them later.
cjones_mcse,
Are you the one who decides if something is petty? You seem to be saying that you can look at a situation and know what is going on in that person's mind. Do you know all the circumstances that led to that prayer? The New Testament says Christians should give thanks in all things, so what is your problem? Does someone who thanks God or gives credit to God cause you to have major anxiety attacks, or is it because you don't want anyone to give God credit for anything?
No, I wasn't indoctrinated in anything - I was in college when I decided to become a Christian, and I didn't leave any part of my brain behind when I did that. I also understand that God is not Santa Claus and I understand hat I don't just bring wish lists for Him to fill everytime I pray. Whatever you may have thought being a Christian was about, you missed the mark because you don't understand the fundamental nature of that relationship. Do you relate to your spouse in the way you just described? Yet God describes the relationship between the body of believers and Himself as one much like a bride and groom.
Why did you put words in my mouth which I didn't say? I said "If it was caused by the actions of evil people"; I didn't say the child was evil. Did you miss the fact that governments and warlords in Africa deliberately use people for their own purposes and withhold food that has been donated by outside agencies to help them? How about the pervasive greed exercised by those with much material wealth but who refuse to help those with very little? Should I ask if you have done your share to help those starving children?
You are also conveniently trying to support your position by pointing to the nature of God and then ignoring His other aspects. The same book that says God created all things says God is good, but you are not interested in reconciling that with your observations. Your argument is a simplistic one that does not follow the premise - you ignore the responsibility that free moral agents have who were created with the ability to choose good or evil. You blame God for the world's situation because it fits your emotional needs to do so, like others in this forum. It's time to wake up and recognize who is accountable.
Are you the one who decides if something is petty? You seem to be saying that you can look at a situation and know what is going on in that person's mind. Do you know all the circumstances that led to that prayer? The New Testament says Christians should give thanks in all things, so what is your problem? Does someone who thanks God or gives credit to God cause you to have major anxiety attacks, or is it because you don't want anyone to give God credit for anything?
No, I wasn't indoctrinated in anything - I was in college when I decided to become a Christian, and I didn't leave any part of my brain behind when I did that. I also understand that God is not Santa Claus and I understand hat I don't just bring wish lists for Him to fill everytime I pray. Whatever you may have thought being a Christian was about, you missed the mark because you don't understand the fundamental nature of that relationship. Do you relate to your spouse in the way you just described? Yet God describes the relationship between the body of believers and Himself as one much like a bride and groom.
Why did you put words in my mouth which I didn't say? I said "If it was caused by the actions of evil people"; I didn't say the child was evil. Did you miss the fact that governments and warlords in Africa deliberately use people for their own purposes and withhold food that has been donated by outside agencies to help them? How about the pervasive greed exercised by those with much material wealth but who refuse to help those with very little? Should I ask if you have done your share to help those starving children?
You are also conveniently trying to support your position by pointing to the nature of God and then ignoring His other aspects. The same book that says God created all things says God is good, but you are not interested in reconciling that with your observations. Your argument is a simplistic one that does not follow the premise - you ignore the responsibility that free moral agents have who were created with the ability to choose good or evil. You blame God for the world's situation because it fits your emotional needs to do so, like others in this forum. It's time to wake up and recognize who is accountable.
ASKER
Callandor,
So despite the fact that prayer for a parking spot is quite obviously superficial when compared to the prayer of a mother for her starving child, you’d like to think that because the Bible says give thanks for all things (not even related to PRAYING FOR THE SPOT IN THE FIRST PLACE) it’s equally worthy of merit to God? That’s a sad, sadistic, petty god you serve. Yes, when someone thinks that an invisible being in the sky is going to answer their prayer to find their lost car keys when that invisible being won’t even save an infant from starvation, it gives me anxiety attacks. It’s frightening how many people believe in the non-existent and devote their lives to it entirely. We saw the results of this line of thinking on September 11, 2001. But that isn’t the point of this question.
You can’t seriously think, despite what the Bible says, that your relationship with God is like a relationship with a spouse…unless you mean a dysfunctional relationship. This is getting off topic, so I’m not going to go any further with this branch. I’ll be glad to discuss it in an appropriate forum though.
No, you didn’t say the child was evil. I just couldn’t see any other logical explanation for your comments. You honestly think that because evil men force starvation on innocent people that God should not intervene? In my opinion that is all the more reason for God TO intervene. How can you even think otherwise?
The same book that says God created all things and says that he is good says that he murders women and children as well. It also says that he rewards men who perform these vile and despicable deeds in his name. Is ethnic cleansing evil or is it not? If God told Bush to go into Iraq and destroy them all because they are all evil and God is pouring out his wrath on them, would you support it? He told Joshua to do it in the OT. I’m not ignoring any “aspects” of God. I’m just pointing out the inconsistencies.
I am not accountable to a mythological God who will only reveal himself through an ancient mythological text. If God would like to come down and have a chat with me in person then perhaps I would believe that I am. However, the God you serve has given me no reason to believe he exists. He doesn’t answer prayers as his book (the only means of communication with us he supposedly has) says he will. His existence is not necessary to explain life on this planet. He most certainly does not have anything even remotely similar to a healthy spousal relationship with any believer. If anyone says they have a healthy relationship with him in which there is two way conversation, both satisfy each other’s needs and share their feelings for one another, then I have the number for a good shrink for them. Again, we’re getting off topic, so we can discuss this elsewhere if you’d like.
So what I gather from the responses so far is that Christians aren’t supposed to pray for the silly little things, but giving thanks when God grants the silly little things (asked for or not) is expected. We can’t know the mind of God and so it’s therefore presumptuous of us to even ask why he answers the petty prayers and not those of the individuals in need of dire help.
Is that about right?
So despite the fact that prayer for a parking spot is quite obviously superficial when compared to the prayer of a mother for her starving child, you’d like to think that because the Bible says give thanks for all things (not even related to PRAYING FOR THE SPOT IN THE FIRST PLACE) it’s equally worthy of merit to God? That’s a sad, sadistic, petty god you serve. Yes, when someone thinks that an invisible being in the sky is going to answer their prayer to find their lost car keys when that invisible being won’t even save an infant from starvation, it gives me anxiety attacks. It’s frightening how many people believe in the non-existent and devote their lives to it entirely. We saw the results of this line of thinking on September 11, 2001. But that isn’t the point of this question.
You can’t seriously think, despite what the Bible says, that your relationship with God is like a relationship with a spouse…unless you mean a dysfunctional relationship. This is getting off topic, so I’m not going to go any further with this branch. I’ll be glad to discuss it in an appropriate forum though.
No, you didn’t say the child was evil. I just couldn’t see any other logical explanation for your comments. You honestly think that because evil men force starvation on innocent people that God should not intervene? In my opinion that is all the more reason for God TO intervene. How can you even think otherwise?
The same book that says God created all things and says that he is good says that he murders women and children as well. It also says that he rewards men who perform these vile and despicable deeds in his name. Is ethnic cleansing evil or is it not? If God told Bush to go into Iraq and destroy them all because they are all evil and God is pouring out his wrath on them, would you support it? He told Joshua to do it in the OT. I’m not ignoring any “aspects” of God. I’m just pointing out the inconsistencies.
I am not accountable to a mythological God who will only reveal himself through an ancient mythological text. If God would like to come down and have a chat with me in person then perhaps I would believe that I am. However, the God you serve has given me no reason to believe he exists. He doesn’t answer prayers as his book (the only means of communication with us he supposedly has) says he will. His existence is not necessary to explain life on this planet. He most certainly does not have anything even remotely similar to a healthy spousal relationship with any believer. If anyone says they have a healthy relationship with him in which there is two way conversation, both satisfy each other’s needs and share their feelings for one another, then I have the number for a good shrink for them. Again, we’re getting off topic, so we can discuss this elsewhere if you’d like.
So what I gather from the responses so far is that Christians aren’t supposed to pray for the silly little things, but giving thanks when God grants the silly little things (asked for or not) is expected. We can’t know the mind of God and so it’s therefore presumptuous of us to even ask why he answers the petty prayers and not those of the individuals in need of dire help.
Is that about right?
I've never seen your "parents," but if you told me you have had a two way conversation with them, I would believe you at face value.
So, why don't you go ahead and give me that number for a shink:)
I have been following this post as best as I can, and I am gathering that you have an issue with his exsistance more than his omnipresence and ability to answer any prayer likened to one of a parent. So maybe it is time you spoke up and tell us why you are irritated that God would answer a simple prayer and not a "more" important prayer such as maybe one you have asked in the past and seemed to have failed.
Sorry if I am off base,
Ryan
So, why don't you go ahead and give me that number for a shink:)
I have been following this post as best as I can, and I am gathering that you have an issue with his exsistance more than his omnipresence and ability to answer any prayer likened to one of a parent. So maybe it is time you spoke up and tell us why you are irritated that God would answer a simple prayer and not a "more" important prayer such as maybe one you have asked in the past and seemed to have failed.
Sorry if I am off base,
Ryan
ASKER
Ryan,
No, you’ve never seen my parents, but the fact of the matter is that if we wanted to, we could exchange phone numbers and I could set up a conference call among the four of us right now. Can you set up a conference call with God for us? I’d love to hear from him. If we got really adventurous, we could decide on a place to meet and all go meet up in person and I could introduce you to them. Can you introduce me to God in person? I’ve been dying to meet him my whole life.
Still want the number for that shrink? You’ll have to make a trip to L.A., but she’d probably be worth it! ;)
There've been no important unanswered prayers in my life as a Christian. Sure, I suffered through some bad times, and had prayers go unanswered, but they were nothing compared to the sufferings of most others in the world. So quite to the contrary, all in all I lived a relatively charmed life as a Christian. I had good jobs, a nice home, a good enough to get by wife, and two wonderful children.
Maybe that’s part of the reason I decided there was no God. You can’t help but watch the news and see all the terrible things going on in the world today. Why would God answer my prayers for stability in life and yet not answer the prayers of one who had it ten times as hard as I did? Of course, nothing is as simple as that and neither was my decision to forego the fairy tales in favor of real life.
So the point of this question is to find out what people really believe about God answering prayers and if he does indeed exist, does he really answer the silly prayers over the important ones? I’d like some really soul searched answers rather than the typical “Who are we to question God?” mess that usually pops up when someone asks this type of question.
No, you’ve never seen my parents, but the fact of the matter is that if we wanted to, we could exchange phone numbers and I could set up a conference call among the four of us right now. Can you set up a conference call with God for us? I’d love to hear from him. If we got really adventurous, we could decide on a place to meet and all go meet up in person and I could introduce you to them. Can you introduce me to God in person? I’ve been dying to meet him my whole life.
Still want the number for that shrink? You’ll have to make a trip to L.A., but she’d probably be worth it! ;)
There've been no important unanswered prayers in my life as a Christian. Sure, I suffered through some bad times, and had prayers go unanswered, but they were nothing compared to the sufferings of most others in the world. So quite to the contrary, all in all I lived a relatively charmed life as a Christian. I had good jobs, a nice home, a good enough to get by wife, and two wonderful children.
Maybe that’s part of the reason I decided there was no God. You can’t help but watch the news and see all the terrible things going on in the world today. Why would God answer my prayers for stability in life and yet not answer the prayers of one who had it ten times as hard as I did? Of course, nothing is as simple as that and neither was my decision to forego the fairy tales in favor of real life.
So the point of this question is to find out what people really believe about God answering prayers and if he does indeed exist, does he really answer the silly prayers over the important ones? I’d like some really soul searched answers rather than the typical “Who are we to question God?” mess that usually pops up when someone asks this type of question.
cjones_mcse,
You make some very interesting points which you probably aren't aware of, since it's obvious you are not objective about this. You use adjectives like "petty" and "silly" when referring to the prayers of others - did you somehow receive special dispensation to pass judgment over the thoughts and desires of others? Why are you qualified to describe them that way? Are you all-knowing? Are you purely objective? Are you qualified to judge others in their intentions?
>The same book that says God created all things and says that he is good says that he murders women and children as well. It also says that he rewards men who perform these vile and despicable deeds in his name.
Now you have moved on to set yourself up as qualified to judge God and His actions. Do you think God is nothing more than a human being, who acts with the same flawed thinking? You call it murder, so present the facts that a jury would agree with in order to convict, because you seem to know more about something that happened than the rest of us mortals. Fill us in on all the details, that we, too, may come to an agreement about convicting God. Don't forget that it should be beyond a reasonable doubt.
Now on to your question about why God doesn't stop evil in its tracks right away. Have you looked in the mirror lately? Is the person that you see the model of perfection that all human beings should aspire to? If not, why shouldn't God do something about that and get rid of that imperfection? Oh, I see, you're not such an evil person and you don't deserve any of that punishment. But who says God sees things according to your standards? God has no reason to put up with anything less than perfect, and yet He does. Of course, you can't see that the world should be anything other than what you think it should be, so all your conclusions are based on your insular view.
Get over this idea that you know all there is to know, and you may learn that things are not what you think they are.
You make some very interesting points which you probably aren't aware of, since it's obvious you are not objective about this. You use adjectives like "petty" and "silly" when referring to the prayers of others - did you somehow receive special dispensation to pass judgment over the thoughts and desires of others? Why are you qualified to describe them that way? Are you all-knowing? Are you purely objective? Are you qualified to judge others in their intentions?
>The same book that says God created all things and says that he is good says that he murders women and children as well. It also says that he rewards men who perform these vile and despicable deeds in his name.
Now you have moved on to set yourself up as qualified to judge God and His actions. Do you think God is nothing more than a human being, who acts with the same flawed thinking? You call it murder, so present the facts that a jury would agree with in order to convict, because you seem to know more about something that happened than the rest of us mortals. Fill us in on all the details, that we, too, may come to an agreement about convicting God. Don't forget that it should be beyond a reasonable doubt.
Now on to your question about why God doesn't stop evil in its tracks right away. Have you looked in the mirror lately? Is the person that you see the model of perfection that all human beings should aspire to? If not, why shouldn't God do something about that and get rid of that imperfection? Oh, I see, you're not such an evil person and you don't deserve any of that punishment. But who says God sees things according to your standards? God has no reason to put up with anything less than perfect, and yet He does. Of course, you can't see that the world should be anything other than what you think it should be, so all your conclusions are based on your insular view.
Get over this idea that you know all there is to know, and you may learn that things are not what you think they are.
cjones_mcse,
I am gathering that you are in question of His existence as a pretense to why he would answer "little" prayers.
How do you account for all the stories people talk about that have had near death or died and then came back to life experiences? I suppose these people are loony as well, even the devout Atheist are perplexed when they have had this kind of experience waking up 2 hours after death in a morgue. (Watch the discovery channel from time to time they have specials on this stuff, normally impartial to any side.)
If I may, I will inject some thoughts to what you have been saying. I have noticed that before Christ, God showed up in many fashions among men, from walking with Adam to crazy weird stuff like fire and clouds. After Christ, there was no more appearances. It converted to complete spirituality (Holy Spirit, "the comforter"). Taking this thought back to an earlier post, you are just one of the ones that cannot accept He is real simply because you have not had "enough" experience with Him. After all these thousands of years, it is true it takes faith to believe anymore, but that is the whole point to it.
This forum is very limited to the real world, but at least we all have been challenged. That I do like. I appreciate you helping me think out side of the box, even if I disagree.
I am gathering that you are in question of His existence as a pretense to why he would answer "little" prayers.
How do you account for all the stories people talk about that have had near death or died and then came back to life experiences? I suppose these people are loony as well, even the devout Atheist are perplexed when they have had this kind of experience waking up 2 hours after death in a morgue. (Watch the discovery channel from time to time they have specials on this stuff, normally impartial to any side.)
If I may, I will inject some thoughts to what you have been saying. I have noticed that before Christ, God showed up in many fashions among men, from walking with Adam to crazy weird stuff like fire and clouds. After Christ, there was no more appearances. It converted to complete spirituality (Holy Spirit, "the comforter"). Taking this thought back to an earlier post, you are just one of the ones that cannot accept He is real simply because you have not had "enough" experience with Him. After all these thousands of years, it is true it takes faith to believe anymore, but that is the whole point to it.
This forum is very limited to the real world, but at least we all have been challenged. That I do like. I appreciate you helping me think out side of the box, even if I disagree.
> I appreciate you helping me think out side of the box, even if I disagree.
;-))
;-))
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BigRat,
Thanks for your post. It’s a very good answer. Just the type of thing I was hoping for. Not anti-religious, but not fanatic either.
In my last post I stated: "I’d like some really soul searched answers rather than the typical “Who are we to question God?” mess that usually pops up when someone asks this type of question."
Immediately following this is the latest reply from Callandor in which he states: "Now you have moved on to set yourself up as qualified to judge God and His actions. Do you think God is nothing more than a human being, who acts with the same flawed thinking? You call it murder, so present the facts that a jury would agree with in order to convict, because you seem to know more about something that happened than the rest of us mortals. Fill us in on all the details, that we, too, may come to an agreement about convicting God. Don't forget that it should be beyond a reasonable doubt."
The Reader's Digest Abridged version of this? "Who are you to question God?"
Come on Callandor. Do you care to take on the question and stop trying to second guess my personal thoughts and feelings about the existence of God? What does it matter if I am a "good" person or an "evil" person? Does that have anything to do with the question? How does whether or not I think I’m “good enough” pertain to God’s decision to answer prayer A for Johnny to find the quarter that fell out of his pocket versus prayer B for Sally’s father who is entering his 12th hour of surgery after having been in a head on collision with a drunk driver to live? You really think there is ANYONE, including Johnny, who wouldn’t think prayer A was SILLY or PETTY in comparison with prayer B? If you can’t see that a prayer to find car keys is absolutely silly and/or petty when placed alongside a prayer for rescue workers to find all the survivors of a magnitude 6.5 earthquake’s destruction then there is just no talking to you. Can you just stop trying to find things to be contentious about and answer the question?
You say “You call it murder…Fill us in on all the details, that we, too, may come to an agreement about convicting God. Don't forget that it should be beyond a reasonable doubt.” Gladly. Just read the book of Joshua.
God’s people supposedly left Egypt and wandered around as nomads for 40+ years. Finally, God decided to keep his promise and give them the land that he told them he would. Unfortunately, this land was already occupied. We’re not told that these people were enemies of God. They simply had the misfortune to be living in a land of milk and honey that had already been promised to someone else. So what does God do? Does he send notice to these people that they are being evicted? Does he warn them to leave or die? No. He sends spies in to check out the land first, then goes from city to city killing all the men, women, and children. Were there no other lands of milk and honey available? God couldn’t MAKE another area flow with milk and honey for his children? The world population at that time was certainly not what it is today. Surely there was plenty of space to put them. But instead of the peaceful solution, God slaughters them all…except the ones who trick him into a treaty. No reason is given. No ill-will from the inhabitants of the Promised Land toward the Israelites is shown. The King of Shittim wants to apprehend the spies that the Israelites sent in. Any country with a nomadic army on its borders is going to be suspicious and would be justified in wanting to capture the spies. Yet God is of course above reproach and can destroy any people he wishes to destroy without the least bit of explanation.
Now if this was anyone but god performing this genocide, you’d scream “YES!!! MURDERER!!!” But since it’s your god, it’s a different story and you invoke the “Who are we to question God” defense. Well, lay this same evidence at the feet of any judge but leave out the fact that it is God’s doing. Then let’s see how long it takes for them to decide murder has been committed…far beyond a reasonable doubt.
It’s sad that you really do see yourself as the ant and god as the mean kid with the magnifying glass and you’re okay with that! As long as you do your song and dance for the kid, he won’t fry you. Ignore him and go on about your life as you see fit and prepare to sizzle. Sorry, if there’s a god out there anywhere, it isn’t the god of the Judeo-Christian Bible.
Now can we please get back to the question?
Thanks for your post. It’s a very good answer. Just the type of thing I was hoping for. Not anti-religious, but not fanatic either.
In my last post I stated: "I’d like some really soul searched answers rather than the typical “Who are we to question God?” mess that usually pops up when someone asks this type of question."
Immediately following this is the latest reply from Callandor in which he states: "Now you have moved on to set yourself up as qualified to judge God and His actions. Do you think God is nothing more than a human being, who acts with the same flawed thinking? You call it murder, so present the facts that a jury would agree with in order to convict, because you seem to know more about something that happened than the rest of us mortals. Fill us in on all the details, that we, too, may come to an agreement about convicting God. Don't forget that it should be beyond a reasonable doubt."
The Reader's Digest Abridged version of this? "Who are you to question God?"
Come on Callandor. Do you care to take on the question and stop trying to second guess my personal thoughts and feelings about the existence of God? What does it matter if I am a "good" person or an "evil" person? Does that have anything to do with the question? How does whether or not I think I’m “good enough” pertain to God’s decision to answer prayer A for Johnny to find the quarter that fell out of his pocket versus prayer B for Sally’s father who is entering his 12th hour of surgery after having been in a head on collision with a drunk driver to live? You really think there is ANYONE, including Johnny, who wouldn’t think prayer A was SILLY or PETTY in comparison with prayer B? If you can’t see that a prayer to find car keys is absolutely silly and/or petty when placed alongside a prayer for rescue workers to find all the survivors of a magnitude 6.5 earthquake’s destruction then there is just no talking to you. Can you just stop trying to find things to be contentious about and answer the question?
You say “You call it murder…Fill us in on all the details, that we, too, may come to an agreement about convicting God. Don't forget that it should be beyond a reasonable doubt.” Gladly. Just read the book of Joshua.
God’s people supposedly left Egypt and wandered around as nomads for 40+ years. Finally, God decided to keep his promise and give them the land that he told them he would. Unfortunately, this land was already occupied. We’re not told that these people were enemies of God. They simply had the misfortune to be living in a land of milk and honey that had already been promised to someone else. So what does God do? Does he send notice to these people that they are being evicted? Does he warn them to leave or die? No. He sends spies in to check out the land first, then goes from city to city killing all the men, women, and children. Were there no other lands of milk and honey available? God couldn’t MAKE another area flow with milk and honey for his children? The world population at that time was certainly not what it is today. Surely there was plenty of space to put them. But instead of the peaceful solution, God slaughters them all…except the ones who trick him into a treaty. No reason is given. No ill-will from the inhabitants of the Promised Land toward the Israelites is shown. The King of Shittim wants to apprehend the spies that the Israelites sent in. Any country with a nomadic army on its borders is going to be suspicious and would be justified in wanting to capture the spies. Yet God is of course above reproach and can destroy any people he wishes to destroy without the least bit of explanation.
Now if this was anyone but god performing this genocide, you’d scream “YES!!! MURDERER!!!” But since it’s your god, it’s a different story and you invoke the “Who are we to question God” defense. Well, lay this same evidence at the feet of any judge but leave out the fact that it is God’s doing. Then let’s see how long it takes for them to decide murder has been committed…far beyond a reasonable doubt.
It’s sad that you really do see yourself as the ant and god as the mean kid with the magnifying glass and you’re okay with that! As long as you do your song and dance for the kid, he won’t fry you. Ignore him and go on about your life as you see fit and prepare to sizzle. Sorry, if there’s a god out there anywhere, it isn’t the god of the Judeo-Christian Bible.
Now can we please get back to the question?
>>Unfortunately, this land was already occupied.
Yes, it is interesting that this sort of thing in the Old Testament is "acceptable" but when Hezbollah pronounce the same sort of thing it is not "acceptable". Obviously because Hezbollah is not guided by the hand of God.
But the more pertinent question is whether the moral standpoints of scripture outlive their time? Various Christian sects basically use differing moral standpoints in scripture to justify their position - the best example is Luther and the Catholic Church of that time. Today perhaps women priests. The Church is to my mind not shallow when discussing these things, but definitely self-indulgent.
Yes, it is interesting that this sort of thing in the Old Testament is "acceptable" but when Hezbollah pronounce the same sort of thing it is not "acceptable". Obviously because Hezbollah is not guided by the hand of God.
But the more pertinent question is whether the moral standpoints of scripture outlive their time? Various Christian sects basically use differing moral standpoints in scripture to justify their position - the best example is Luther and the Catholic Church of that time. Today perhaps women priests. The Church is to my mind not shallow when discussing these things, but definitely self-indulgent.
ASKER
Going to leave this open for another 48 to 72 hours in case there are any more posts, then I'll assign points.