Advertisement

02.19.2008 at 04:59AM PST, ID: 23174131
[x]
Attachment Details
[x]
The Solution Rating System

With so many solutions, how can you tell which solutions are most likely to help you and which ones are not? To provide you with a tool to use, we rate our solutions based on various elements that most accurately determine if a solution is a quality solution. To explain what factors affect the solution rating, here are the elements we take into consideration when formulating our solution rating.

  • The Grade of the Solution
  • The Zone Rank of the Expert Providing the Solution
  • The Number of Author and Expert Comments
  • The Number of Experts Contributing
  • The Feedback of the Community

Your Input Matters
Because of the way the system is set up, the most important variable in this equation is you. As a member of Experts Exchange, you are able to cast your vote on the quality of the solutions in regard to how complete, accurate, helpful and easy to understand each solution is. When you provide your feedback, each rating is adjusted accordingly. So, if you see a solution that has a poor rating that you think is a good solution, let us know by rating it. As you do, the rating will be adjusted and will become more accurate for other members of our site.

If you have any suggestions that you would like to make for our rating system, please ask a question in the Suggestions Zone of Community Support.

Thank you!

Flat networks and benifits of segmenting them..

Tags: NETwork, subnets, vlans, `
Hi,

We have a large flat network and i want some information about the benifits of breaking it up in to logical chunks. Basicaly we have about 2000+ machines connected to the network..

now i know all the benifits and such but what i want to knwo is what proformance incresses we coudl expect to see. I need some documatation. I know for instance that The network cards on Clients PC's are reciving about 30 to 40 packets a second + that they dont need to see.

but can any one tell me the link to some documation that tells you the proformance incresses of reducing the size of your broadcast domains?
security, trouble shooting and other areas i am aware of. I just really want some figures on the efficently of the network.

Thank you

Aaron
Start your free trial to view this solution
Question Stats
Zone: Networking
Question Asked By: DevilWAH
Solution Provided By: BillBach
Participating Experts: 2
Solution Grade: B
Views: 8
Translate:
Loading Advertisement...
02.19.2008 at 06:12AM PST, ID: 20928386

All comments and solutions are available to Premium Service Members only.

Start your 7-day free trial and see for yourself why Experts Exchange is the easiest and most proven technology resource in the world. Get Started

Already a member? Login to view this solution.

 
02.19.2008 at 06:59AM PST, ID: 20928897

All comments and solutions are available to Premium Service Members only.

Start your 7-day free trial and see for yourself why Experts Exchange is the easiest and most proven technology resource in the world. Get Started

Already a member? Login to view this solution.

 
02.19.2008 at 07:23AM PST, ID: 20929170

All comments and solutions are available to Premium Service Members only.

Start your 7-day free trial and see for yourself why Experts Exchange is the easiest and most proven technology resource in the world. Get Started

Already a member? Login to view this solution.

 
02.19.2008 at 07:52AM PST, ID: 20929483

All comments and solutions are available to Premium Service Members only.

Start your 7-day free trial and see for yourself why Experts Exchange is the easiest and most proven technology resource in the world. Get Started

Already a member? Login to view this solution.

 
02.25.2008 at 07:18AM PST, ID: 20976085

All comments and solutions are available to Premium Service Members only.

Start your 7-day free trial and see for yourself why Experts Exchange is the easiest and most proven technology resource in the world. Get Started

Already a member? Login to view this solution.

 
02.26.2008 at 02:11AM PST, ID: 20982885

All comments and solutions are available to Premium Service Members only.

Start your 7-day free trial and see for yourself why Experts Exchange is the easiest and most proven technology resource in the world. Get Started

Already a member? Login to view this solution.

 
 
Loading Advertisement...
Microsoft
  • Internet Protocols
  • Applications
  • Development
  • OS
  • Hardware
  • Windows Security
Apple
  • Operating Systems
  • Hardware
  • Programming
  • Networking
  • Software
Internet
  • Search Engines
  • File Sharing
  • WebTrends / Stats
  • Spy / Ad Blockers
  • Web Browsers
  • New Net Users
  • Web Development
  • Chat / IM
  • Anti Spam
  • Web Servers
  • Anti-Virus
  • Email Clients
Gamers
  • Tips
  • Online / MMORPG
  • Puzzle
  • Emulators
  • Action / Adventure
  • Role Playing
  • Consoles
  • Game Programming
  • Strategy
  • Sports
  • Misc
  • Computer Games
Digital Living
  • Hardware
  • Automotive
  • New Net Users
  • New Users
  • Software
  • Digital Music
  • Gaming World
  • Home Security
  • Apple
  • Networking Hardware
Virus & Spyware
  • Vulnerabilities
  • IDS
  • Encryption
  • Anti-Virus
  • Operating Systems Security
  • Software Firewalls
  • WebApplications
  • Cell Phones
  • Operating Systems
  • Internet
  • Hardware Firewalls
Hardware
  • Displays / Monitors
  • Handhelds / PDAs
  • Components
  • Peripherals
  • Laptops/Notebooks
  • Servers
  • Misc
  • Apple
  • Embedded Hardware
  • Networking Hardware
  • Storage
  • Desktops
  • New Users
Software
  • System Utilities
  • Industry Specific
  • Network Management
  • Photos / Graphics
  • Page Layout
  • VMware
  • Misc
  • Web Development
  • OS
  • CYGWIN
  • Voice Recognition
  • Virtualization
  • Message Queue
  • Quality Assurance
  • Security
  • Firewalls
  • MultiMedia Applications
  • Development
  • Database
  • Office / Productivity
  • Business Management
  • OS/2 Apps
  • Server Software
  • Internet / Email
ITPro
  • OS
  • Storage
  • Encryption
  • Operating Systems Security
  • Apple Hardware
  • Laptops & Notebooks
  • Servers
  • Networking Hardware
  • Peripherals
  • Devices
  • Displays / Monitors
  • WebTrends / Stats
  • Search Engines
  • Firewalls
  • Web Computing
  • WebApplications
  • IDS
  • Vulnerabilities
  • Email Clients
  • File Sharing
  • Spy / Ad Blockers
  • Web Browsers
  • Web Servers
  • Networking
  • Anti-Virus
  • Consulting
  • Chat / IM
  • Anti Spam
Developer
  • Web Servers
  • Web Browsers
  • Game Programming
  • Dev Tools
  • Industry Specific
  • Office / Productivity
  • Database
  • CYGWIN
  • Web Development
  • Search Engines
  • File Sharing
  • WebTrends / Stats
  • Programming
  • Content Management
  • Application Servers
  • Protocols
Storage
  • Removable Backup Media
  • Storage Technology
  • Servers
  • Grid
  • Remote Access
  • Backup / Restore
  • Misc
  • Hard Drives
OS
  • Miscellaneous
  • Security
  • Development
  • Linux
  • VMware
  • MainFrame OS
  • Unix
  • Apple
  • OS / 2
  • AS / 400
  • BeOS
  • Microsoft
  • VMS / OpenVMS
Database
  • Oracle
  • Miscellaneous
  • MySQL
  • Software
  • Sybase
  • Contact Management
  • PostgreSQL
  • Data Manipulation
  • Clarion
  • InterSystems Cache
  • Siebel
  • MUMPS
  • OLAP
  • SQLBase
  • SAS
  • GIS & GPS
  • 4GL
  • Berkeley DB
  • DB2
  • Informix
  • Interbase / Firebird
  • FoxPro
  • Reporting
  • LDAP
  • Filemaker Pro
  • MS SQL Server
  • dBase
  • MS Access
Security
  • Misc
  • Web Browsers
  • Software Firewalls
  • Operating Systems Security
  • File Sharing
  • Spy / Ad Blockers
  • Vulnerabilities
  • WebApplications
  • IDS
  • Anti-Virus
  • Encryption
  • Anti Spam
  • Email Clients
  • VPN
  • Chat / IM
Programming
  • Editors IDEs
  • Installation
  • Handhelds / PDAs
  • Multimedia Programming
  • System / Kernel
  • Automation
  • Algorithms
  • Game
  • Signal Processing
  • Project Management
  • Open Source
  • Database
  • Misc
  • Languages
  • Processor Platforms
  • Theory
Web Development
  • Scripting
  • Blogs
  • Web Servers
  • Software
  • Search Engines
  • Web Graphics
  • Web Services
  • Images
  • Internet Marketing
  • Images and Photos
  • Components
  • Document Imaging
  • Web Languages/Standards
  • Illustration
  • WebApplications
  • Fonts
  • WebTrends / Stats
  • Authoring
  • Digital Camera Software
  • Miscellaneous
Networking
  • Protocols
  • Apple Networking
  • Network Management
  • Message Queue
  • Application Servers
  • Content Management
  • File Servers
  • Email Servers
  • Misc
  • Java Editors & IDEs
  • Wireless
  • Networking Hardware
  • Backup / Restore
  • System Utilities
  • ISPs & Hosting
  • Web Servers
  • Storage Technology
  • Removable Backup Media
  • Servers
  • Web Computing
  • Broadband
  • Grid
  • OS / 2
  • Novell Netware
  • Unix Networking
  • Windows Networking
  • Security
  • Telecommunications
  • Operating Systems
  • Linux Networking
Other
  • Lounge
  • Business Travel
  • Community Support
  • New Net Users
  • Philosophy / Religion
  • Math / Science
  • Miscellaneous
  • URLs
  • Expert Lounge
  • Politics
  • Puzzles / Riddles
  • Automotive
Community Support
  • Suggestions
  • New to EE
  • New Topics
  • CleanUp
  • Announcements
  • General
  • Feedback
  • Input
  • EE Bugs
 
02.19.2008 at 06:12AM PST, ID: 20928386
Hi, some of the highlighted benefits follows:
1. More effective usage of network badnwith. The broadcast traffic will not be sent to 2000 machines, but only to those in the subnet.
2. More security - you can place your servers or other important computers to an isolated network segment (the same about some test network etc).
3. More granular control on your network traffic.

Here are some links:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/winntas/tips/winntmag/segment.mspx?mfr=true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_domain

http://www.techtutorials.info/vlan.html

http://net21.ucdavis.edu/newvlan.htm
 
02.19.2008 at 06:59AM PST, ID: 20928897
cheers.

I got all the resons but i needed a hard figure about what improvments it would make.

I have read some where that reducing from a large layer 2 network to a decent layer 3 network can incress proformance by up to 40%+ . but i can't find any figures any where.

I have already written some lenthy documnet on security, broadcst domains, better use of public IP addresses, proper managment VLAN's etc etc...

but like i say if i am going to tell people what improvements it will make they are going to want to know in terms of proformance. and they will want to knwo if it will be a 5% inprovment or a 50% one.

I'm actuly most intrested for trouble shooting resons as trying to trouble shoot a flat 2000+ device network is a night mare!!
 
02.19.2008 at 07:23AM PST, ID: 20929170
Ok, maybe I don't understand what exactly do you need to know.
You want something like "Dear boss, I want to segment our huge ineffective network in several smaller ones, which in effect will bring you these benefits:
1. you can download the porn movie from our accountant computer in less than 5 minutes instead of 20 minutes now!
2. When IT guys play Unreal tournament, it will not affect the speed of delivering mail!"

I think what you ask for is impossible - to give some figures. It would take much time to make some professional analysis of how many hours you spend by troubleshooting the current flat network problems,  and how much money/time/human resources it will save. Is this what you are asking for? If so, I'm honnestly sorry but without having very deep knowledge of your company, I'm not able to give out these figures.
Assisted Solution
 
02.19.2008 at 07:52AM PST, ID: 20929483
what are you on about..

how about we will see a 30% decress in sql server responce times

the fact is a nic card takes a set amount of time to read a data packet. if a NIC is getting hit by 40 packets a second then it will require 4 time xamount of micro/secs a second to deal with that traffic. (read and drop it)

if we are sending a large file accross the network it will get intrupted 40 times a second this will take th above amount of time, plus a second small delay for switching the data streams.

this will be a faily static amount (varying slightly for 10mb 100mb and 1000mb NICs), and I have come accross the figures before. I just cant find them again?? Microsoft also had an artical that lists network dealy speeds for different size collision domains and the differences between them.

And I dont know why you are going on about porn? I dont have time to get in to that with the other 17 networks I have to administer.
 
02.25.2008 at 07:18AM PST, ID: 20976085
How long is a piece of string?  I think Martin's point was that "your network may vary".  In fact, this is one of the areas in which I offer advice to companies all the time, so I'll try to give you a more thorough explanation, even though you may not like it.

First off, you must look at the number of broadcasts being seen on the network every second, and also look at the broadcast bandwidth.  (Use a good network analyzer, like Sniffer or Etherpeek to get much better statistics.)  This gives you an idea of the amount of "background noise" that you are seeing.  Having a broadcast rate of 40 packets per second (pps) is no big deal.  In fact, NICs are often capable of thousands of pps with no discernable load, especially of they have a TCP Offload Engine (TOE) on the NIC.  (Most cheaper cards do not, of course.)  Of course, each broadcast packet inbound must be processed, so it'll generate a CPU interrupt, and more.  Again, faster computers will see no discernable performance penalty, but older, slower boxes could definitely see it.  To get a feel for it, try using Sniffer to transmit broadcast packets at a varying rates and see how much it impacts various computers.

Second, you must know if you current have hubs or switches (which your post did not specify).  Although, since you seem to only be worried about broadcast traffic, then I am suspecting that you have switches.  In this case, you have already segmented the ethernet network into smaller collision domains, which is a huge gain right there in limiting the amount of traffic that is seen by each workstation.  Switches will also limit the amount of data traffic across various segments, which is especially important when placing servers -- try to place each server closest to the users who primarily access it to avoid crossing into another switch if you can avoid it.  This means that only broadcast packets are getting to each workstation.  If you are only seeing 40 pps, then I would honestly stop worrying about it.  Your last post mentions "collision domains", but this is in reference to the MS paper.  Of course, collisions are related to the old (i.e. flat) ethernet segments with hubs/repeaters, and NOT switches.  If you do indeed have a single-segment Ethernet network, then you'd be seeing a LOT more than 40 packets per second.

Next, you must examine the type of traffic on the wire.  If you are constantly seeing "burst" traffic, such as file transfers, in which a small request is made, and data streams from the server down to the workstation, then adding a router to the network will definitely improve performance.  On the other hand, if you are running database traffic that is request/reply based (i.e. it sends a small request, then waits for a small reply to come back from the server), then please note that adding ANY device to the network path will increase round trip time (RTT) and overall latency.

Case in point -- I have a single workstation and a single server communicating client/server for a database.  The typical response time for the database server is 0.01ms.  Now, I add a series of 10 switches into the mix.  Each switch adds its own latency to the network path.  A cut-through switch has a latency of about 6 bytes (since it can start forwarding the packet as soon as the destination MAC address has been read off the wire), and performs very well in this environment.  Even having 10 switches causes an increased latency of about 60 bytes of transmission time.  However, most switches today are configured as store&forward.  This means that the entire packet is read into each switch FIRST (to make sure that the packet is good), and THEN the switch starts transmitting downstream.  This means that having 10 switches on a tiny 100-byte packet will increase the latency time to 1000 bytes.  

Why do we care?  A request/reply protocol (like a database) will often generate MANY round trip times for a given process.  Let's examine simple numbers -- I want to read 1000 records from the database.  If my RTT is 0.01ms, then the time it takes me to do this is 0.01 * 1000 or 10ms.  Nice & fast, right?  However, if I add many switches, routers, and other devices to the network path, and I increase the RTT to just 1ms, then I now have a "user response time" to read those same 1000 records of 1000ms, or 1 second.  Still reasonable?  Run the same app over a long distance, with more devices and a latency of 20ms, and your application response time now jumps to 20 seconds -- completely unreasonable for the human sitting there.


So, back to your original question.  You are proposing to add a "slow" device, i.e. a router, to the environment to segment the broadcast traffic.  Routers are slower than switches (though not so much any more, with advanced hardware).  I agree that this will reduce the broadcast traffic, especially ARP traffic, which is probably most of it.  I also agree that it may make troubleshooting easier, since each network will be segmented into smaller areas.  

I also believe that adding another device will make it SLOWER for users of some applications using request/reply traffic.  I also think that adding another device to manage may have the opposite effect and increase the workload -- but this depends on the hardware chosen and if YOU have to manage it or not.  Remember that a router will have to be configured, maintained, patched, and possibly repaired at some time.  (Which may require a hot spare, too.)  You may also have to duplicate all segment services, such as DHCP, and possibly set up new routing rules, new firewall rules, and more.

Accepted Solution
 
02.26.2008 at 02:11AM PST, ID: 20982885
Ok why do i ask..

First of all as cisco switch (even some of the top ones)  have a ARP cache of 500 devices. so even if a client is on one switch away from the server. It is quite possible that it will have to run an ARP request becasue the Cache will have be flushed through becasue it works by round robin. Having a small routing table on the core routers will result in less time spent running ARP requests and so bypasss that latency.
also as the client/server will often be on a different netwok. then client PC will spend less time them selves running ARP requests as the will be defaulting to a Defult gate way address. which as it is used often will have a entry in to the ARP cache that is almost static!

Also most switchs run cut through adaptive that i know of.  So they run cut through to forward packets unless there are lots of errors and they fall abck to store and forward..

Also most decent rotors (and the ones i have on site) run at wire speed. so they route traffic as fast a a switch can handle the traffic.

And forget about proformance for a moment. what about trouble shooting.. Running a flat network hides lots of problems on a network. is a client using DNS or Wins to resolve a name to IP? IPX traffic is seen on our network?? why wheres it from?? With a routed network only traffic that is set up to be allowed will be forwarded. so you wont be able to get away with configuring things wrong..

And most importantly. I put i capture on any link on the network. listen for a few miniutes and i will have the mac address and ip address of every sever on the network. and can send data over any port to them.. If only for this the servers should be on a seperate network to the users.. as should the switch/router managemtn interface. (i could if i wanted find a switch using a capture and disable it!!)

And yes i only have switchs.. about 50 cisco 3750's and a few 4500's.

You have both made some good points, but I think you both don't relise that I am well aware of the benifits and pit falls of networking. and have gone over the ones you have broughtup already. I have now been stuyding networks for a fair few years. I simple wanted a link to a site regarding the figures.

Anyway i have been speaking to an old friend who has been designing Networks for about 20years now and he has sent me the data i was asking for.

Thanks for your time

Aaron
 
 
20080236-EE-VQP-29 / EE_QW_EXPERT_20070906