I have a client who loses their internet access once every week or two. They have a Westell DSL Modem (model 2200) from Verizon and Linksys router (model BEFSR41). The problem is always resolved by powering down the modem and then the router. Any ideas on how to resolve this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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Hi,
DSL connections were never meant to be on forever so its great that the client even stays up for that amount of time.
If I remember correctly, on the Linksys screen, one the first page where you enter the username and password, there is a checkbox that says something to the effect of "re-logon when disconnected". Check that, it should clear up that problem.
Regards,
I have seen this occur with some routers. the first persons (Sparkymw) suggestions of troubleshooting are very good. If you can acces the router and hit "Reconnect" and it hits it then something with the ISP needs to be addressed. If it is not accessible... well that should tell you something within the router is not functioning.....Contrary to the second persons opinion.. my dsl and router never have problems ... im "Lucky" right? I dont think so....
To me the router to sounds suspect. If you have another router try using it.
Going back to Sparkymw's last suggestion... the westell is a router/modem no? can it be ISOLATED to that?
I often use a little program called IPMonitor to diagnose this, after all the break could be caused by your network card, the router, the modem or the ISP. IPMonitor is basically a ping tool. Set it up to ping at a regular interval, say 5 minutes, each of 4 locations, your PC's IP, the LAN IP of the router, your ISP's gateway address (the modem- you can get this address from the router's status page) and an IP on the Internet such as the ISP's DNS server or Google 64.233.187.99 IPMonitor can be set to give you a visible, audible or e-mail alert of a failed connection, as well as do logging. This way you can just let it run and see when and where the break occurs. There is a 30 day free trial version available at:
ouch, unless anyone can think of anything else, I think the equavalient of carrier was lost. Its something on the telco end and its design related. Remember that DSL is not MPLS, Frame, or ATM, but telco's solution for greater bandwidth thru regular copper. If worst comes to worst, you may have to tell your client that its a telco related issue and an occassional reset of the DSL modem to re-establish carrier and router maybe warranted. Otherwise the next comparable technology is cable.
Craig, you may in fact be lucky. LinkSys has turned out some flaky firmware for the BEFSR41 from time to time (ver. 1.45.6 was particularly bad). You may have just bought one with "good" firmware. I have seen a number of problems such as the one described above resolved by updating the firmware. In particular the early BEFSR41 firmware did not handle PPPoE connections at all well, and didn't automatically reset the MTU to 1492 for PPPoE.
I called Verizon tech support to see if they had any suggestions. Since no one knew the DSL password, they had me reset it. As soon as I did, the router status went from Disconnected to Connected and we were on the internet. I also upgraded the firmware from 2001 to version 1.46.2 (Aug/04). We will see how it goes. Thank you.
I actually worked at Business Verizon dsl.... I know that most of the 2billion customers they have didnt have circuits that just cut them off - requiring a router reset to fix...so I know a thing or two about this.. I know im not "Lucky"...
another thing to consider - CO equipment is ALOT more expensive and ALOT more reliable than the $50 router we are talking about ... that cheap router will fail before the telco's routers anytime you wanna have a performance test.... its funny that when people hook up a $3000 firewall/router to dsl they dont have reset problems like the cheap routers...
again: troubleshooting by pinging, to detect where the device thats failing is by far the most effective means of troubleshooting vs just resetting power on a device...
ECNSSMT: DSL carries ATM/FRAME circuits to the DSL MODEM - telling your client its telco related is the easy way out... telling them exactly where the failure is not difficult if you troubleshoot properly.
I have that model router from linksys too... not sure what version firmware.. Strungs suggestion sounds good too.. (upgrade firmware)
Marathonman330: when you connected to the router.. did you hit connect and get online??
also IS the westell 2200 set to ROUTER mode or BRIDGE mode??
if it is set to router... you need to configure it for bridge... if you had configured it for a bridge previously, and hit RESET on the westell modem... it defaults to ROUTER mode... and it has to be reconfigured to bridge..
Hi Craig 200X,
Equipment is equipment; and they all are subject to the laws of physics. Even though telcos engineered redundancy into the equipment; they are still subjected to problems or failures so don’t give me this holier than thou rhetoric about the million dollar equipment being better than the $50 dollar electronics. Or would you like to explain to me why one of Verizon’s grids failed in the Washington DC area that caused an 8 hour Verizon Blackberry outage at the beginning of last month? I also remember when Verizon was NYNEX, I was really enthralled with your outages then. 4 - 24 hour outages and the only thing I got was “You will be given a status when a status is available”. There were many outages in between.
In terms of dealing with Verizon Business group when I was in NYC, when there were issues that fit into the service person’s script, it was great; service was great. When it was something outside of the norm, it took a little longer. Connectivity issues were interesting; one Verizon connectivity issue was resolved with nothing more than the Verizon tech telling me to switch the Westell modem off for one minute and then turning it back on. I doubt the issue was on the Westell side.
Also please don't confuse and fuse the 3 technologies together. DSL is your last mile technology that carries the data to your site; yes, but it is technology used to compress the signal carrying your data to the point where it can traverse the POTS lines between the CO and your DSL modem. CPE ATM switches terminates ATM circuits at your site. CPE FrameRelay switches / cards terminates FRAME circuits at your site. The 3 technologies are not interchangeable nor are they merged at any point, but a data packet can traverse a topology that supports all three and be delivered intact.
Whazup ECNSSMT,
Sorry, BUT not all equipment is the same. Lets just think about the analogy of the pinto that drives like a testerossa for a moment....
Also what I DID say was the telco equip will perform at a higher uptime than a $50 router - Im sure there are stats out there that will back me on it.
I cant and wont say anything about the power problem, Ill buy what your saying since I didnt troubleshoot it.
All I said about your comment was that DSL carries ATM and Frame circuits... you want to talk about cpe and switches etc.. no problem. But you did said say earlier that DSL is not FRAME or ATM, and to tell your client its the telco fault... To me that sounded like a quick out... I heard that excuse all the time when I worked at Verizon, and it usually came from people who thought they knew what they were doing, but failed to do accurate trouble shooting. Dont be upset with me.. I was just clarifying things.
I still stand by my perceptions.
Cheers
Craig
Hi marathonman330,
I apologize for the tangent direction that this thread is taking....
Hello Craig_200X,
Your comment > All I said about your comment was that DSL carries ATM and Frame circuits
It doesn't. Please have one of you Verizon field tech show you the equipment that a Frame Relay circuit terminates to on the customer side; same thing for the ATM circuit. You've already seen the DSL equipment.
Your comment > Sorry, BUT not all equipment is the same. Lets just think about the analogy of the pinto that drives like a testerossa for a moment....
I agree, ALL EQUIPMENT ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL (or the same)... and to present better analogy; how about comparing a tricycle to the testerossa without the illusions of the tricycle driving like the testerossa.
The tricycle has to move at 1 mile an hour to accomplish its task; the testerossa has to move at a million miles per hour to accomplish its task. Or in realistic terms; the DSL modem has to move 2 megabits of data per second to accomplish its task. Telco has to move an amount of data that vastly surpasses terabits per second to accomplish its task.
Another comparison could be. The router occupies the space equivalent to less than a cereal box. DSL; the infrastructure in any given grid measures hundreds of miles of cable, with their support relays; the central office has their wiring
infrastructure and their massive computerize switching to regulate traffic flow.
The router, probably has a life expectancy of 5 years. If it breaks, the owners just goes out an buys a new one.
Verizon telco infrastructure has probably been around since the 1920s; it has been thru several iterations of upgrades and millions of repair jobs. Your testerossa is in a constant state of repair as we speak. Repairs due to wear and tear, lightning strikes,natural and man-made problems. The most visible sign of these repairs are the Verizon vans parked next to the man holes or exchange boxes. This should not be a surprise considering the hugely large number of components associated with telco
You may have to clarify what you mean by up time, I am fairly certain, that if we had all the Verizon field techs stop servicing the equipment, at some point approaching 5 years time, we will not have a functional telecommunication system.
Your comment> I cant and wont say anything about the power problem, Ill buy what your saying since I didnt troubleshoot it.
I didn't say anything about power problems. If you read carefully; I was talking about outages; you know, when a circuit goes down and data service across that circuit is no longer possible; until its repaired.
But overall, you get the idea, right? So compared to that $50 device; Verizon (DSL) does stand an equal chance of having an outage in the same time frame where the $50 device can go bad, if not more so.
Where does that leaves marathonman330? Well, my first comment...
"DSL connections were never meant to be on forever so its great that the client even stays up for that amount of time. "
otherwise
"ouch, unless anyone can think of anything else, I think the equavalient of carrier was lost."
Because I could not think of anything else. And considering the value Verizon places on its residental and small business customers vs its large contracts and REALLY the scales of economy involved here.
"Its something on the telco end and its design related. Remember that DSL is not MPLS, Frame, or ATM, but telco's solution for greater bandwidth thru regular copper. If worst comes to worst, you may have to tell your client that its a telco related issue and an occassional reset of the DSL modem to re-establish carrier and router maybe warranted. Otherwise the next comparable technology is cable."
Remember, DSL was an AD HOC technology to provide a high speed data connection over a copper infrastructure that was laid down a century ago.
Now, if the problem was resolved by the suggestion of upgrading the firmware, that would be great.
Regards,
Tim
Hi marathonman330,
Check this site out. The config process outlines determining router or bridge mode in the procedure.
http://www.lava.net/suppor
If its worth anything, 3 DSL users I know reports this as a common occurance for them.
Regards,
I think resetting the router is OK, if it doesnt bother you(or the client). BUT If it happens all the time. I believe the best solution is to replace the router with a new one (Much like I the direction this Question has now turned). Now adays a new router can be bought for $30 with a rebate (or Like the Dlink I got for xmas - free after rebate.)... I think routers(and Im referring to the cheap ones) dont work flawlessly much longer than their 1 year warranty... its been my experience that replacing the router is a VERY common, and a good solution for businesses that require not having to deal with devices to get back online with BOTH dsl and cablemodems...
NOW if you can get some real equipment like a Cisco router (even an older model) you will have much better luck..
Go UCLA!
Hello Craig_200x
>I think resetting the router is OK, if it doesnt bother you(or the client).
A lot of that is pretty much user or client dependent, so things can pretty much go the way the client wants.
>BUT If it happens all the time. I believe the best solution is to replace the router with a new one
If its to the point where it looks like a defect in the router itself, Yes I do agree.
>(Much like I the direction this Question has now turned).
marathonman330, definitely come to the point where all of his available options on the previous router has been exhausted. If this new router becomes the solution, then its excellent that the issue is resolved. But this is only a view point assuming that this is a router issue. I am really hoping that I'm wrong and its not the DSL, otherwise the issue still exists no matter which router is purchased.
>Now adays a new router can be bought for $30 with a rebate (or Like the Dlink I got for xmas - free after rebate.)...
> I think routers(and Im referring to the cheap ones) dont work flawlessly much longer than their 1 year warranty...
lol, that's probably why you are getting it for free. But on the serious side, most companies that produce inferior products don't really stay around for long. Most companies that have been around usually have good quality control to ensure that maybe more than 99.9% of their products are clear of manufacturer defects; otherwise they have the 90 day - 1 year warrenty to permit the consumer to return or have repair the defective merchandise on the manufacturer's expense. Presumably after the 1 year warrenty, the product should enjoy a useful 5 year life span (if not longer).
>its been my experience that replacing the router is a VERY common, and a good solution for businesses that require
>not having to deal with devices to get back online with BOTH dsl and cablemodems...
keeping operating cost down, the production process operational without the added cost of down time. If replacing a router (or doing anything) fits this description, then it should be done!
lol (again), hopefully, COMMON doesn't mean that you are replacing your routers constantly. Replace defective equipment; YES, but not constantly.
>NOW if you can get some real equipment like a Cisco router (even an older model) you will have much better luck.
You do realize two things?;
1. Linksys IS presently a Cisco company.
2. Cisco previously manufactured parts for Linksys before the acquisition.
Sorry, I had to point that out.
But even at that, it should be noted that Cisco only plays well with Cisco and introducing Cisco equipement into a mixed environment gets very mixed results. (And I like and use Cisco!!)
Well, again hopefully it was the router and not the DSL (which I'm still leaning towards)...
Regards,
Your absolutely right on all those points. I agree IF the problem continues then it must be addressed with the ISP. A port change/equip move on the ISP side should be done, and with the explanation of having replaced the router not fixing the problem, the ISP will do it. (Just MAKE sure your config on the 2200 is set to bridge, and no EXTRA pppoe clients anywhere)
About the linksys - cisco connection.. good point... :) to me, there does seem to be a difference, I have seen countless home routers fail with the same symptoms here. (Reset required, cant access the config page, routing issues, etc...)... I think the quality control on the more expensive routers is either ALOT better or they use better parts, or the design is different... length of use on those $200 and up routers just seems to be the difference between a Yugo and a maintenance free BMW. Im referring to about a year or more ago, so maybe things have gotten better for LInksys, and this failing equip we deal with now is from that time....
Craig
Hey Craig,
The symptoms with which you described 'Reset required, cant access the config page, routing issues, etc...' and much of your previous statements are supportive of the occurrances experienced by the "everyday" user. A tier 1 tech (and maybe tier2 tech, depending on the helpdesk mission statement) would definitely see this in the course of their "25 ticket average" day. The thinking process, reinforced by the individual resolutions at hand would end in the obvious conclusion that these types of problems would be best resolved by the replacement of the obviously defective customer side equipment. Most of these issues are clocked as either the duration of the call or something that doesn't have the longevity of a week. So with issues in THIS CONTEXT, you are talking accurate facts and I agree wholeheartily... We have to talk about your car analogies though.
With marathonman330, I focused on "client who loses their internet access once every week or two". I have NEVER seen a DSL connection (with varying traffic) stay up for more than a consecutive and conservative 12 days maximum. I've heard of individuals who leave their modems on, stating that they have to power off and on their modems every 3 days or so. I've used DSL for periods spanning less than 24 hours, have had 2 or 3 occassions over a year's period where shutting down and restarting everything resolved my connectivity issue over DSL.
The time span in marathonman330's case (at least to me) does not indicate an issue of defect, but again if replacing the router resolves it then it is excellent. If marathonman330 stated that he has to reset everything in a period of every 15 minutes up to 2 days, I definitely think its a client side issue and replacing the router was the best option to look at. If the issue occurs between a 2 - 7 day period, it would have required issue specific information to determine and I would be start backing off any notion of equipment defects on both the user's and telco's end. This is assuming that telco didn't already noticed anything funny with that specific card, channel, or device. So, to me marathonman330's issues goes a step beyond a question of equipment quality on my time line.
The only thing I do suspect is that telephone lines can be noisy. They are an antenna for EMF; given the right noise level and duration; I think a DSL connection can be broken hence the option to reconnect that was spoken of. Given more of it, I think the equivalent of carrier is lost and the reset of equipment on the customer side is warranted; hence the set of statements I previously made.
My opinoion is the DSL designers must have realized or discovered this and may not have the means or need to ensure that DSL connections be established indefinitely. Otherwise, I think they would be reinventing Frame and ATM which supports their corporate customers.
But again, I am hoping that replacing the router works.
As for your BMW. BMWs are not maintenance free; the BMW warranty comes with a 5 year warranty that includes maintenance like oil changes, tire rotations, checkups at specific mileage points; "already paid for maintenance" or what a lot of dealers could probably term free maintenance. After the 5 years, BMW offers an extended warranty that will continue that coverage. Which overall isn't bad until I get into an accident...
Regards,
Tim
Tim,
I dont know what circumstances you have seen as far as dsl not being able to stay up. but I have not only done physical installs but have troubleshot thousands of these situations over a period about 3-4 years from the prem to the CO to even the sales orders and changes that affect dsl(not very many people other than installers and technicians on the phone side or the field can say that). This means I do have hands on experience to back my statements. So, as much as you like to keep saying the telco solution of dsl is not capable of sustained connections, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. In almost all cases (with the exception being telco hardware failure) a computer directly connected to the modem does not have these problems. That is the correct way to isolate and troubleshoot these situations.
As far as your understanding of losing SYNC, it does happen, wires do get cut, a noisy t1 line can be accidentally placed next to a line carrying dsl. usually these are marked and it is avoided...but it can happen. In normal operation however a sync can be aquired even as far as 23000 ft. I have seen this.. they only got 400kbit out of it but it did keep sync.. when you add devices (with filters you can create more noise (faulty filters are even worse).. now when a DSL line is being troubleshot - one of the first things that is done is a line test to check for signal strength and distance. IF the numbers show too much noise or distance nearing 18000 the technicians inform the customer that this may affect line performance and sync. If that is not a factor, your looking at CPE every time to be the issue (99.99%). If they are within 13000 ft.. (LIke my dsl which HAS been up and MAXXED pipe at 3mbits for almost 2 years now) they will never have sync problems... excepting someone drops a t1 next to their cable.
One more thing.. unlike T1 service, dsl is not a guaranteed service, just like many other things, like a flawless machine, solid state electronics do need occasional repair.You want a guarantee? you understand you will be paying for it... You can take my analogies (pretty much any analogy really), and make it what you want. BUT the general idea I am saying is that the $30 router doesnt last as long or offer the performance of the tens of thousands of dollars of equipment you find in the CO. You are confusing the issue by rephrasing, and can dismiss that all you want, but its the truth. I will stop trying to convince you. I respect your knowledge of networking, but I dont think I will understand you on this issue and I dont think you will understand me, so lets agree to not butt heads about this and put this in our past. ok friend?
all the best to you
Craig
I just thought about this after I posted that msg. But there is one other thing. In my experience, I have received numerous ( countless ) requests to assist in configuring pppoe on highend routers, pix firewalls, sonic firewalls, and yet I still to this day have never EVER had to troubleshoot one of those devices having connectivity issues in which the reset of the router would fix it. Why is that? Could be network engineers dont let end users near their equipment to messup the config or if equipment were just like any other equipment there would have been many of those calls. NO? Just another reason, but probably the a very very good reason why its worth the extra money to get a high end router.. especially if your business counts on it. Im sure if you speak to anyone who has configured these devices with dsl, you will find this to be true as well.
???
OK Craig what ever you want, I'm kinda taken back by the last entry.
Admittedly, my DSL is limited compared to what you cited. I only look at DSL when ever I take on a small client and they actually have issues with DSL. Otherwise, I seem to float around Enterprise level apps and hardware; e.g. I (with 2 other team members) stood up a LAN/WAN that encompassed 13 sites and 3000 people. I am presently tier3 over an Exchange cluster that literally doubled in size in the last 2 weeks. I am pretty familiar with all of the WAN technologies (old and new) and whatever I am lacking in knowledge of, I have a NOC full of ex-UUNET guys that will fill me in on the specifics of any WAN technology. As well I taught Cisco for a two year stretch... That's an excerpt of my 20 year career.
I do apologize if you think my last 3 entries were meant to "butt heads"
Regards,
Hi Craig,
I've never seen highend (Cisco) routers, pix firewalls connected to DSL. And when it comes to Frame Relay, ATM and now MPLS (kinda); telco is usually on the ball when it comes to meeting SLAs.
end-users stay at their computers...
I would agree that everyone should invest in their technology infrastructure; however small shops (<10) usually goes the cheap route no matter what. Companies 10~50 is a mixed bag. Companies somewhere >30 tends to start to think about getting better service and equipment.
Funny thought- I was setting up a remote site in Boston years back, NewEngland Bell took over 3 hrs to get a frame circuit to work. between this site and NYC. After the hours of troubleshooting, they discovered that a pair of wires were reversed from their distribution point in the basement up to the demarc at the site. After that, the circuit then tested good for ~16 hrs and were up since then.
Regards,
After replacing the router the problem did recur. However, this time there was no dial tone on the phone line. Verizon came and found damage to the line within the home. They fixed it and the problem still happenned again a couple of weeks later. This time the standard modem/router reset fixed it. As far as I know it has not happenned again but I need to follow-up with the client. If it does happen again, I am thinking of replacing the the Belkin wireless router with either a Westel 327W or Actiontec Gateway both sold by Verizon. They are combination modem/routers. Do any of you have opinions on these? It seems to me that it would simplify troubleshooting to have the router and modem combined in one device. Also, it would be from Verizon so they would fully support it. And brand new so less likely to fail? What do you think? Thank you.
Hi All,
I still think its telco related. (LOL) or rather the way that telco handles its switch service. If you remember back in ye-olden days of 115baud - 56kbps modems, there would be events like sever noise on the line that would mostly knock out the connection and the obvious solution is to redial back to the service you were using. A decent connection would last for 3 days max and 1 day average. Then on some rare occassions, there would be what appears to be a connection but no data traversing the connection. Without investigating the technical aspects, one would just disconnect and attempt to redial the service; that would work without question.
I think DSL somehow inherited this trait from the sheer fact that its going over POTS lines as well as it has to coexist with the analog technology that is still present on the customer end. The way I see it is there is a point in the communication that enough noise is injected into the conversation that neither the telco equipement and nor the customer equipement has anything in their algorithm that permits a successful recovery from it. The reboot of the customer side modem and router re-initiates the conversation to telco. Which in this case permits the customer to maintain communications for another 3 weeks. I still think a 7-10 day uptime is still a reasonable uptime for DSL.
I think that it is most probable that the client is utilising a cleaner portion of the telco (residential??) infrastructure that is permitting him to keep a longer connect time. (Vaguely, somehow I find field techs finding damage and this issue are not related. IMHO)
In the last two weeks, my group has been charged with assisting our tiers 1 & 2 with OWA issues (something that we don't do specifically down to the customer level, especially since much of it relates to telecommunting) A lot of it has to deal with available bandwidth at specific hours of the day and night. There are other puzzling circumstances where we do look towards telco (and the cable comapnies) for answers <grin>.
Customer hardware seems easy enough to prove out. Change the customer hardware a diffent brand at the worse case and either it works or it doesn't work; when it comes down to it. (Of course, we can try to prove out all the modem and router brands too.)
marathonman330, depending on the urgency and pressure for resolution; you eventually may want to go with my second statement (the 7th post down) and say that its telco related and the occassional reset of the DSL modem and router may be warrented.
Otherwise, you may want to look towards fiber as a residential resolution. That should negate any noise issues associated with the last mile cabling.
Regards,
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by: sparkymwPosted on 2006-03-07 at 06:52:12ID: 16123847
well really need to find where the problem lies. IS the ip address changing at that time for example? Is the adsl modem connected the the time? Does it have connected lights on it at the time? Does just turning off and on the router work? Can you still ping the router when it goes down or access the modem?
Otherwise how about a combined router and modem? 1 Box then to do all.