Windows 7 - DOS applications perform badly under Windows XP Mode application virtualisation
Hi Guys. This is a question that I doubt many can shed light on, but here we go.
I am currently trialling the RC1 release of Windows 7, and as part of my testing have set up and am trying out the XP Mode virtualisation.
We have an unusual use for this software - not to run legacy Windows apps, but rather to run some old DOS apps we still use that only work in Windows XP, and no higher.
I have been able to get our DOS apps to virtualise and run in this way, but they are desperately slow when running in application mode. Then function in every way I want them to, but if I type a line of text inside one of these apps, it will take 10 seconds to slowly appear.
Interestingly, if I load up the virtual machine fully in Windows 7 (not in application mode) and run these DOS applications, they work flawlessly. So there must be a bug somewhere in the virtualised application layer, or indeed the way apps are called up individually through the RDP protocol.
Either way, I've looked at every single option I can think of, and just wondered if anyone has come up with a work around? I'm going to try and make Microsoft aware of this problem, although as they want so dearly for DOS to be history (which granted, it largely is) I suspect they might not fix this.
Any thoughts gratefully received.....
Many thanks,
Bluemercury
I am currently trialling the RC1 release of Windows 7, and as part of my testing have set up and am trying out the XP Mode virtualisation.
We have an unusual use for this software - not to run legacy Windows apps, but rather to run some old DOS apps we still use that only work in Windows XP, and no higher.
I have been able to get our DOS apps to virtualise and run in this way, but they are desperately slow when running in application mode. Then function in every way I want them to, but if I type a line of text inside one of these apps, it will take 10 seconds to slowly appear.
Interestingly, if I load up the virtual machine fully in Windows 7 (not in application mode) and run these DOS applications, they work flawlessly. So there must be a bug somewhere in the virtualised application layer, or indeed the way apps are called up individually through the RDP protocol.
Either way, I've looked at every single option I can think of, and just wondered if anyone has come up with a work around? I'm going to try and make Microsoft aware of this problem, although as they want so dearly for DOS to be history (which granted, it largely is) I suspect they might not fix this.
Any thoughts gratefully received.....
Many thanks,
Bluemercury
Blizz127
Well i'm not positive on what to do about this, I think support for older dos programs just gets worse and worse as you get higher in technology.... One of the best things to do might be grab a copy of Virtual PC (or vmware) install Windows 98 on there and run it in a virtual machine environment which should hopefully improve the usage and speed. Worth a shot atleast.
ASKER
Hey Blizz127.
Thanks for your message. We've done all options like this long ago. The key is that XP Mode provides the exact seemless solution that we've looked for for so long - the ability to make virtual applications appear to exist in the host OS to the end user. No switching between virtual machines, and the ability to dock the app as if it is a local application.
The infuriating thing is this technology works even with DOS, but fire up anything more than a basic command prompt and we have these problems. Look at the DOS app in a the virtual machine directly, and then it works a charm.
I'm hoping MS might iron this bug out, but as they seem to hate DOS, perhaps they will leave it in to spite me!
Thanks for your input anyway.
Bluemercury
Thanks for your message. We've done all options like this long ago. The key is that XP Mode provides the exact seemless solution that we've looked for for so long - the ability to make virtual applications appear to exist in the host OS to the end user. No switching between virtual machines, and the ability to dock the app as if it is a local application.
The infuriating thing is this technology works even with DOS, but fire up anything more than a basic command prompt and we have these problems. Look at the DOS app in a the virtual machine directly, and then it works a charm.
I'm hoping MS might iron this bug out, but as they seem to hate DOS, perhaps they will leave it in to spite me!
Thanks for your input anyway.
Bluemercury
This works for me on Windows 7 and Dos Programs
http://www.dosbox.com/
DOSBox also emulates CPU:286/386 realmode/protected mode, Directory FileSystem/XMS/EMS, Tandy/Hercules/CGA/EGA/VGA
http://www.dosbox.com/
DOSBox also emulates CPU:286/386 realmode/protected mode, Directory FileSystem/XMS/EMS, Tandy/Hercules/CGA/EGA/VGA
DOS programs won't work at all on a 64-bit box (at least not natively like they might have done in XP 32-bit). I have a DOS VM running in VMware 6.5.2 and it runs just fine. It can be networked (with some difficulty) and runs all my old DOS apps just fine. I never use it (I really have left DOS behind) but I know it all works. ... Thinkpads_User
ASKER CERTIFIED SOLUTION
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Please let us know the outcome. I have three observations on this:
1. The issue with new machines is that DOS will not run in 64-bit machines. I don't see it as a Microsoft problem per se, and the issue will only get worse.
2. I view VMware as entirely workable. Once started (I know starting it is not seamless) one can shift between applications as easily as if native.
3. Might it be possible for your users to move on from DOS to the newer versions of the same or good substitute products? I had to replace almost all my software to move to 64-bit, so it seems more than reasonable that DOS has finally died.
Thanks, ... Thinkpads_User
1. The issue with new machines is that DOS will not run in 64-bit machines. I don't see it as a Microsoft problem per se, and the issue will only get worse.
2. I view VMware as entirely workable. Once started (I know starting it is not seamless) one can shift between applications as easily as if native.
3. Might it be possible for your users to move on from DOS to the newer versions of the same or good substitute products? I had to replace almost all my software to move to 64-bit, so it seems more than reasonable that DOS has finally died.
Thanks, ... Thinkpads_User
ASKER
Hi thinkpads_user.
Thanks for your post. In direct response:
1. With regard to 64-bit, Microsoft could have ported the ntvdm (NT virtual dos machine) environment that was in Windows XP and still exists in Vista x86. It was more a political decision than a technical one (although they would have cause have had to so some redevelopment to get it working optimally), and I have heard rumours of projects where people have attempted a port of the dos environment into Vista x64, using the environment in Vista x86 as a basis.
2. VMware workstation is a lovely product, but there are still negative considerations. Firstly, we'd need to license it for up to 50 users, and as we will be buying Windows 7 anyway (if we can use it) we'd rather get something included for free.
Secondly, whilst I agree with you that switching between virtual machines is no big deal, we are IT pros and it's easy to lose perspective on just how uncomplicated and uncluttered general workers want their system. I know there are people in my firm who are IT menaces, and would struggle with the process of switching between machines. Additionally, people would raise the point as to why they are switching into a virtual machine 50% of the time or more, and whether having a new version of Windows had just made things more clutter, complicated and dispersed. People would ask why me moved from XP, and then I'm stuck back at square one. XP Mode looks so darn neat, people would simply never ever need to know anything about the virtulisation that was going on in the background.
3. This is an ongoing project - I would dearly love to see the DOS apps gone. The use of them are mission critical, and too complicated to explain in the scope of this post. I'm working on developing a solution that will replace the two main DOS apps we're running with MS Office 2007 (or OpenOffice) and a back end SQL server. But it is likely to take a year or two to develope, test and implement. So basically that's the long term plan, but in the short term, we want to switch to Windows 7. Also, it may be that even when our DOS apps are no longer actively needed, they might need accessing from time to time for archive purposes - again, XP mode will be superb.
I hope that answers your points - I will indeed comment on here again as soon as Microsoft change anything. I've found other posts out there with people also wanting exactly the same support, and we're all notifying Microsoft. We're hopeful of a performance fix!
I will also post my findings on Sun's VirtualBox, and whether seamless mode works well for DOS apps.
Cheers :D
Thanks for your post. In direct response:
1. With regard to 64-bit, Microsoft could have ported the ntvdm (NT virtual dos machine) environment that was in Windows XP and still exists in Vista x86. It was more a political decision than a technical one (although they would have cause have had to so some redevelopment to get it working optimally), and I have heard rumours of projects where people have attempted a port of the dos environment into Vista x64, using the environment in Vista x86 as a basis.
2. VMware workstation is a lovely product, but there are still negative considerations. Firstly, we'd need to license it for up to 50 users, and as we will be buying Windows 7 anyway (if we can use it) we'd rather get something included for free.
Secondly, whilst I agree with you that switching between virtual machines is no big deal, we are IT pros and it's easy to lose perspective on just how uncomplicated and uncluttered general workers want their system. I know there are people in my firm who are IT menaces, and would struggle with the process of switching between machines. Additionally, people would raise the point as to why they are switching into a virtual machine 50% of the time or more, and whether having a new version of Windows had just made things more clutter, complicated and dispersed. People would ask why me moved from XP, and then I'm stuck back at square one. XP Mode looks so darn neat, people would simply never ever need to know anything about the virtulisation that was going on in the background.
3. This is an ongoing project - I would dearly love to see the DOS apps gone. The use of them are mission critical, and too complicated to explain in the scope of this post. I'm working on developing a solution that will replace the two main DOS apps we're running with MS Office 2007 (or OpenOffice) and a back end SQL server. But it is likely to take a year or two to develope, test and implement. So basically that's the long term plan, but in the short term, we want to switch to Windows 7. Also, it may be that even when our DOS apps are no longer actively needed, they might need accessing from time to time for archive purposes - again, XP mode will be superb.
I hope that answers your points - I will indeed comment on here again as soon as Microsoft change anything. I've found other posts out there with people also wanting exactly the same support, and we're all notifying Microsoft. We're hopeful of a performance fix!
I will also post my findings on Sun's VirtualBox, and whether seamless mode works well for DOS apps.
Cheers :D