Question

compressing air

Asked by: grg99

Let's say we have a kilogram of air compressed to 2000PSI.

How much energy is released pushing up a piston, until the pressure is down to 500PSI?

Assume the air cools off as expected, no heat in our out from the vessel sides.

Thanks,

grg

This question is in progress. Our experts are working on an answer right now.
Sign up for immediate access to the solution once it becomes available.

Subscribe now for full access to Experts Exchange and get

Instant Access to this Solution

  • Plus...
  • 30 Day FREE access, no risk, no obligation
  • Collaborate with the world's top tech experts
  • Unlimited access to our exclusive solution database
  • Never be left without tech help again

Subscribe Now

Asked On
2007-03-23 at 09:44:44ID22468744
Tags

air

,

compressing

Topic

Math & Science

Participating Experts
6
Points
250
Comments
15

Trusted by hundreds of thousands everyday for fast, accurate and reliable tech support.

  • "The time we save is the biggest benefit of Experts Exchange to Warner Bros. What could take multiple guys 2 hours or more each to find is accessed in around 15 minutes on Experts Exchange." Mike Kapnisakis, Warner Bros.
  • "Our team likes having a resource that is more secure than just using Google and most experts using this service really know their stuff. It's nice to look here first versus using Google." Dayna Sellner, Lockheed Martin
  • "Anytime that I've been stumped with a problem, 9 out of 10 times Experts Exchange has either the accepted solution or an open discussion of the potential solution to the problem." Kenny Red, eBay Inc.

See what Experts Exchange can do for you.

Got a question?

We've got the answer.

Experts Exchange has been collecting answers to technology questions since 1996…3 million and counting! If you have a question, chances are we already have your answer.

Screenshot of Experts Exchange Knowledgebase

Need individual assistance?

Our experts are ready to help.

If you can't find the exact answer you're looking for, ask our exclusive community of 50,000 experts. You’ll get a personalized answer from a trusted professional.

Screenshot of Experts Exchange Knowledgebase

Want to learn from the best?

Read articles from industry experts.

Thousands of free tech tips, tricks, how-to’s and tutorials are available in our peer reviewed articles section. See for yourself how smart our experts are, no login required.

Screenshot of an Article

Working on a long term project?

Store your work and research.

Save solutions to your questions, answers you’ve discovered through searching plus helpful articles in your personal knowledgebase for easy future access.

Screenshot of Experts Exchange Knowledgebase

Access the answers to your technology questions today.

Subscribe Now

30-day free trial. Register in 60 seconds.

What Makes Experts Exchange Unique?

Members of the expert community talk about why the experience at Experts Exchange is different than what you will find anywhere else.

Trusted by the world's most respected brands.

image of each brand's logo

Faithfully serving IT professionals since 1996.

Experts Exchange Logo

Try it out and discover for yourself.

Subscribe Now

30-day free trial. Register in 60 seconds.

Related Solutions

  1. Kinetics of Electrolysis Part Six
    Review Kinetics of Electrolysis Part four and answer this: Is this chart a reasonably accurate accountingof the poetential for work at each atmosphere? If not? Why not? I think that we are making a mistake to assume the the relationship for increasing potential is linear ...

Free Tech Articles

  1. WARNING: 5 Reasons why you should NEVER fix a computer for free.
    It is in our nature to love the puzzle. We are obsessed. The lot of us. We love puzzles. We love the challenge. We thrive on finding the answer. We hate disarray. It bothers us deep in our soul. W...
  2. SCCM OSD Basic troubleshooting
    SCCM 2007 OSD is a fantastic way to deploy operating systems, however, like most things SCCM issues can sometimes be difficult to resolve due to the sheer volume of logs to sift through and the dispe...
  3. Migrate Small Business Server 2003 to Exchange 2010 and Windows 2008 R2
    This guide is intended to provide step by step instructions on how to migrate from Small Business Server 2003 to Windows 2008 R2 with Exchange 2010. For this migration to work you will need the fo...
  4. Create a Win7 Gadget
    This article shows you how to create a simple "Gadget" -- a sort of mini-application supported by Windows 7 and Vista. Gadgets can be dropped anywhere on the desktop to provide instant information, ...
  5. Outlook continually prompting for username and password
    There have been a lot of questions recently regarding Outlook prompting for a username and password whilst using Exchange 2007. There are a few reasons why this would happen and I will try to cover t...
  6. Backup Exchange 2010 Information Store using Windows Backup
    There seems to be quite a lot of confusion around the ability to backup Exchange 2010 using the built in Windows Backup feature. This stems from the omission of this feature prior to Exchange 2007 s...

Cloud Class Webinars

  1. Avoiding Bugs in Microsoft Access
    Alison Balter takes and in-depth look at avoiding bugs in Access. In this webinar you will learn about using the immediate window to debug your applications, invoking the debugger, using breakpoints to troubleshoot, stepping through code, setting the next statement to execute, ...
  2. Top 10 Best New Features in Visio 2010
    Scott Helmers gives live demonstrations of the top 10 new features in Visio 2010. This webinar will teach you how to create compelling diagrams by adding shapes to the page with a single click, linking the shapes in a diagram to data in Excel (or SQL Server, or SharePoint), ...
  3. IT Consultant Business Secrets Revealed
    Michael Munger, Experts Exchange tech pro and IT consultant, pulls back the curtain on his very successful businesses and answers question on every IT consultant and business owner should know about. He shares secrets on what he did to solve the 5 most common problems in IT, ...
  4. Disaster Recovery and Business Continuity
    Quest CTO, Mike Billon, gives an overview of the steps involved in building a dunamic disaster recovery plan. Through case studies and an examination of software/hardware tooles for monitoring and testing, you'll gain a better understandin of where you are, where you want ...
  5. Organize Your Visio Diagrams with Containers and Lists
    Scott Helmers uses cross functional flowcharts, wireframe diagrams, data graphic legends and seating charts to teach you: how to ustilize all three new structured diagram components in Visio 2010, the best practices for organizeing shapes in previous version of Visio, how to organize ...
  6. How to Us Objects, Properties, Events and Methods in Microsoft Access
    Alison Dalter gives an in-depbth look at objects, properties, events and methods in Microsoft Access. In this webinar you will learn about using the object browser, referring to objects, working with properties and methods, working with object variables, understanding the ...

Join the Community

Give a Little. Get a Lot.

Join the community of experts here and help other tech pros by answering question in your area of expertise. You can earn FREE access to all Experts Exchange's premium features and resources.

Join the Community

Answers

 

by: d-glitchPosted on 2007-03-23 at 13:23:10ID: 18782917

It's been to long and I'm out the door in 3 minutes.

But I think this is the relevant example.  
You have an adiabatic not an isothermal process.
I don't know what the difference is between an Ideal Gas and a Van der Walls.

         http://classweb.gmu.edu/sdavis/chem331/adiabatic.htm

 

by: InteractiveMindPosted on 2007-03-23 at 13:37:22ID: 18783026

van der Waals gas is a set of more accurate [empirical] equations for representing real gases, than the ideal gas equations.

 

by: MacroLandPosted on 2007-03-24 at 03:57:40ID: 18784848

P1V1^n=P2V2^n=c=constant   where n=Cp/Cv  it should be around n=1.4

V;Volume
P :Pressure

Work=integral (PdV)  where P=c/V^n

W=c* (V2^(-n+1)-V1(-n+1)) / (-n+1)

 

by: MacroLandPosted on 2007-03-24 at 03:58:28ID: 18784850

should be;

W=c* (V2^(-n+1)-V1^(-n+1)) / (-n+1)

 

by: aburrPosted on 2007-03-24 at 14:37:19ID: 18786351

I think you are going to have to have a temperature in here somewhere. A kg of
 air at a very low temperature (even at a high pressue) is not going to have much energy to do external work. A kg of air at a very high temperature will have lots of energy.

 

by: MacroLandPosted on 2007-03-25 at 00:42:35ID: 18787592

>>...is not going to have much energy to do external work.

The sign of the work will determine if the work is externally given (-) or the system itself produces the work (+)

 

by: bastibartelPosted on 2007-03-25 at 08:04:47ID: 18788201

Hello grg99

If the pressure is released quickly, so there is no heat exchange between the (compressed) gas reservoir and the environment it's called an adiabatic process, as was mentioned above.

Look at the diagram and equation at the top of this page:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/adiab.html

The work W is given in terms of intial and final Volume, which you can approximate as follows:
(I'll do it in S.I. units, thats easier for me)

ambient air has a pressure of 1 bar.
Say, the compressed gas has  pressure of 100 bar.
Then the amount of compressed gas inside a cylinder is 100 times that of uncompressed gas insinde that same cylinder.
Releasing it completely (p: 100bar -> 1bar) will increase the volume of the gas like
V: V(cylinder) -> 100*V(cylinder)

In general p1 * V1 = p2 * V2
 
One more comment:
If the compressed gas is initially hotter than the environment that makes no diffference as long as this excess heat is not turned into work. It is true, that hot gas has more internal energy than a cool gas, however the temperature is already taken into account when you have your gas describhed in terms of pressure and volume. 1 kg of hot gas will simply have higher pressure than 1 kg of cool gas. It makes no difference what initially caused the pressure to build.

Cheers,
Sebastian

 

by: bastibartelPosted on 2007-03-25 at 08:06:33ID: 18788205

there is actually a form on that page that will calculate the Work :-)

 

by: BrianGEFF719Posted on 2007-03-25 at 13:24:37ID: 18789387

Hi,

W = (p_1 * V_1 - p_2 * v_2) / (k - 1)


Depending on your gas, as Macroland already pointed out this constant is the ratio of the Molar Heat Capacity at constant pressure to the Molar heat capacity at constant volume.

For monatomic ideal gasses that ratio is usually around 1.67
For diatomic ideal gasses that ratio is usually around 1.40
For polyatomic ideal gasses that ratio is around 1.30

 

by: aburrPosted on 2007-03-25 at 15:01:42ID: 18789643

As has been pointed out the problem conserns an adiabatic expansion. As was also pointed out the problem CANNOT be solved without a temperature someplace. All of the equations presented for work so far have involved a volume, which was not given in the problem.
-----
By the way
"In general p1 * V1 = p2 * V2"
only for isothermal changes

 

by: bastibartelPosted on 2007-03-27 at 03:30:50ID: 18798769

pV = const .. for T=const that is true.I figured we can neglect the cooling of the expanding/working gas (Thomson effect I belive).
Also, I think, the volume is a required quantity to determine the Work. Or the density and pressure as we need to consider the amount of expanding gas.
The volume before expansion need be given. The Volume after expansion is implicitely given by the ambient (or resultant) pressure - neglecting the temp. i.e.

Cheers,
Sebastian

 

by: aburrPosted on 2007-03-27 at 10:20:43ID: 18801589

"pV = const .. for T=const that is true.I figured we can neglect the cooling of the expanding/working gas (Thomson effect I belive). "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem (and the physics) plainly states that in this case the temperature is NOT constant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Also, I think, the volume is a required quantity to determine the Work. Or the density and pressure as we need to consider the amount of expanding gas."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this problem. to know a volume is completely equivaltnt to knowing a temperature.

 

by: bastibartelPosted on 2007-03-27 at 10:51:33ID: 18801887

If the gas is not 'working' on anything you have the case of free adiabatic expansion and dT is approximately zero for the ideal gas (Joule expansion)

http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~broholm/l35/node6.html.
But you are right for the case of the working gas.

And of course you can replace any of the state variables with temperature if you will. But why would you if you have an expression W(p,V)




 

by: BrianGEFF719Posted on 2007-03-27 at 12:57:27ID: 18803062

>>If the gas is not 'working' on anything you have the case of free adiabatic expansion

The gas is doing work, the gas is doing work on the piston.

20120131-EE-VQP-002

3 Ways to Join

30-Day Free Trial

The Experts

98% positive feedback on 31,087 answers since March 2000. angeliii is a Microsoft Most Valuable Professional for his work with MS SQL Server & Develoment.

He has also proven his knowledge of Visual Basic Programming, PHP Scripting and Oracle Databases.

The Experts

97% positive feedback on 10,752 answers since July 2000. lrmoore has more than 18 years experience in the networking industry.

The six-time Mircosoft MVPs specialties include firewalls, virtual private networking, and network management.

Testimonials

"...and excellent source for support... Kind of like having your very own IT dept." Electriciansnet

Testimonials

"I was apprehensive at signing up at first. However... it has already made my life as an IT administrator much easier." JaCrews

Testimonials

"WOW! You guys have great, active, and knowledgeable people on here." moore50

Business Clients

Business Clients

In the Press

"If you’ve got a question... Experts Exchange can supply an answer.”

In the Press

"...an invaluable aid for both IT professionals and those who require tech support."

In the Press

"where IT professionals provide quick answers on just about any topic"

Business Account Plans

Loading Advertisement...