Pluggable hybrid cars
This has caused me to be puzzled ever since I first heard the term "Plug-in/Pluggable hybrid cars."
I have two questions that should be utterly simple to answer, but those answers do not pop up on the numerous websites I've surfed. I've *not* made it into a career research project, but it seems like the answers to both of these would be on the *first* page I viewed, let alone the 100th...
1) Obviously the current hybrid cars have rechargeable batteries. They are recharged constantly by the gasoline-powered engine and by the braking system. The question is: Why is a $10,000 "conversion kit" needed to make a standard Prius or Civic Hybrid pluggable? Why can't a simple adapter/recharger be used to "top off" the batteries when it is parked in the garage at night?
2) Assuming a flat battery on a pluggable hybrid, and assuming a fairly typical retail cost of electricity in the neighborhood of 10 cents ($0.10) per KWh (kilowatt hour) and that the load is just one passenger and the route is on level ground (that is, nothing special)...
2a) How much would it cost to fully charge that battery and...
2b) How many miles would it deliver? ...and...
2c) Convert that to Miles per Dollar (MPD).
As a point of comparison for (2c), my old reliable 1999 Toyota Corolla gets 30 miles per gallon. Gas costs about $4.00 per gallon. If I put in 10 gallons, I pay $40.00 and expect to travel 300 miles. Thus I am paying 300/40.00= 30/4= 7.50 MPD.
The reciprocal (dollars per mile) is $0.13; that's in the neighborhood of the cost of one KWh per mile -- if I did the math right :-)
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There are a number of related issues that might be interesting to discuss.
* The problem of every commuter charging his pluggable during the day would probably put huge stress on the electrical grid during hot summer months, worsening brown-outs and so forth.
* Where hyro-electricity is a main source, one uses up the water in the damn faster under pluggable-vehicle scenarios. That could be a problem during drought conditions (which are likely to become more severe, according to some climate models). I know that during the drought a few years ago, a hydro-electric power plant outside of LA actually reversed the turbines and pumped water back up the hill at night! The enormous cost of the electricity (and wear-and-tear) to do so must have been less than the value of having a ready supply of water for daytime electricity production.
* Using electricity rather than gasoline does not prevent pollution or CO2 emissions; it just pushes them out of town to where the coal-burning power plants are located. But isn't even *that* worth something? Pollution causes the most health damage when it is concentrated in a small area (such as downtown LA and along transportation corridors). Wouldn't spreading it around to a larger area (putting more square miles of less-dense population at risk, but each person at a small fraction of the danger) be a good thing?
* Bring up your own interesting thought on these issues. I'll award points not only for the answers to my question, but for interesting discussion about related issues.
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I have two questions that should be utterly simple to answer, but those answers do not pop up on the numerous websites I've surfed. I've *not* made it into a career research project, but it seems like the answers to both of these would be on the *first* page I viewed, let alone the 100th...
1) Obviously the current hybrid cars have rechargeable batteries. They are recharged constantly by the gasoline-powered engine and by the braking system. The question is: Why is a $10,000 "conversion kit" needed to make a standard Prius or Civic Hybrid pluggable? Why can't a simple adapter/recharger be used to "top off" the batteries when it is parked in the garage at night?
2) Assuming a flat battery on a pluggable hybrid, and assuming a fairly typical retail cost of electricity in the neighborhood of 10 cents ($0.10) per KWh (kilowatt hour) and that the load is just one passenger and the route is on level ground (that is, nothing special)...
2a) How much would it cost to fully charge that battery and...
2b) How many miles would it deliver? ...and...
2c) Convert that to Miles per Dollar (MPD).
As a point of comparison for (2c), my old reliable 1999 Toyota Corolla gets 30 miles per gallon. Gas costs about $4.00 per gallon. If I put in 10 gallons, I pay $40.00 and expect to travel 300 miles. Thus I am paying 300/40.00= 30/4= 7.50 MPD.
The reciprocal (dollars per mile) is $0.13; that's in the neighborhood of the cost of one KWh per mile -- if I did the math right :-)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
There are a number of related issues that might be interesting to discuss.
* The problem of every commuter charging his pluggable during the day would probably put huge stress on the electrical grid during hot summer months, worsening brown-outs and so forth.
* Where hyro-electricity is a main source, one uses up the water in the damn faster under pluggable-vehicle scenarios. That could be a problem during drought conditions (which are likely to become more severe, according to some climate models). I know that during the drought a few years ago, a hydro-electric power plant outside of LA actually reversed the turbines and pumped water back up the hill at night! The enormous cost of the electricity (and wear-and-tear) to do so must have been less than the value of having a ready supply of water for daytime electricity production.
* Using electricity rather than gasoline does not prevent pollution or CO2 emissions; it just pushes them out of town to where the coal-burning power plants are located. But isn't even *that* worth something? Pollution causes the most health damage when it is concentrated in a small area (such as downtown LA and along transportation corridors). Wouldn't spreading it around to a larger area (putting more square miles of less-dense population at risk, but each person at a small fraction of the danger) be a good thing?
* Bring up your own interesting thought on these issues. I'll award points not only for the answers to my question, but for interesting discussion about related issues.
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SOLUTION
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The big answer to coal fired plants and their pollution is nuclear power.
"the braking system"
An interesting (to me) question which none of the sales people could answer is
In city driving what percentage of the power expended is recovered by the braking system?
An interesting (to me) question which none of the sales people could answer is
In city driving what percentage of the power expended is recovered by the braking system?
"How much would it cost to fully charge that battery"
That depends on the capacity of the battery. Does anybody know what that is?
That depends on the capacity of the battery. Does anybody know what that is?
"Why is a $10,000 "conversion kit" needed to make a standard Prius or Civic Hybrid pluggable?"
'I do not know because I do not know what is included with the conversion kit. One of the answers implied that it contains another battery. That would be a very costly item. (Uses up space too.)
Other items of cost include voltage regulation, current regulation, overcharge protection circuits, reverse current protection in case of power failure, large transformer (or complicated switching power supply circuits),
'I do not know because I do not know what is included with the conversion kit. One of the answers implied that it contains another battery. That would be a very costly item. (Uses up space too.)
Other items of cost include voltage regulation, current regulation, overcharge protection circuits, reverse current protection in case of power failure, large transformer (or complicated switching power supply circuits),
ASKER
Yes, the conversion kits add a second costly (Lithium) battery along with the recharging gadget. I'm starting to think that the main (standard) battery must have a relatively low capacity.
Even so, let's guess that the standard batteries have enough juice for, say, 30 miles (can somebody check that?). I'd still like to know the specific numbers on the cost of "refilling" that battery from the 110 volt outlet in the garage rather than from the gas station.
Even so, let's guess that the standard batteries have enough juice for, say, 30 miles (can somebody check that?). I'd still like to know the specific numbers on the cost of "refilling" that battery from the 110 volt outlet in the garage rather than from the gas station.
ASKER
>> Electricity usage at night is low.
And that's why its feasible to pump water back up to Pyramid Lake at night -- in some cases, the electricity is basically "free" at night.
Regardless of the MPD cost, I'm thinking that the power companies will have to implement "smart meters" so that using that power at night to recharge the battery will cost less than the same amount if used during the day.
... And assuming that... Would it not be economical for a homeowner to install a large battery so he could store up "night-price" electricity and use it (for say, air-conditioning) during the day?
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Has anyone else seen signs that say "Electrical Car Recharging Station"? -- I've seen those signs a few times and wonder what's going on... surely they must charge a fee for the electricity (or perhaps all vehicles with the right kind of plug are owned by one company or something).
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As is my habit, my thinking also goes one step beyond the point where pluggable cars are common:
Won't it then become very attractive to *steal* electricity? You neighbor probably has a outlet on the side of his house! Gas stations, and many other "closed-at-night" businesses often have a hot outlet that is basically available to the public. Isn't that like a sign that says "Free Gasoline" to a pluggable owner?
And that's why its feasible to pump water back up to Pyramid Lake at night -- in some cases, the electricity is basically "free" at night.
Regardless of the MPD cost, I'm thinking that the power companies will have to implement "smart meters" so that using that power at night to recharge the battery will cost less than the same amount if used during the day.
... And assuming that... Would it not be economical for a homeowner to install a large battery so he could store up "night-price" electricity and use it (for say, air-conditioning) during the day?
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Has anyone else seen signs that say "Electrical Car Recharging Station"? -- I've seen those signs a few times and wonder what's going on... surely they must charge a fee for the electricity (or perhaps all vehicles with the right kind of plug are owned by one company or something).
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As is my habit, my thinking also goes one step beyond the point where pluggable cars are common:
Won't it then become very attractive to *steal* electricity? You neighbor probably has a outlet on the side of his house! Gas stations, and many other "closed-at-night" businesses often have a hot outlet that is basically available to the public. Isn't that like a sign that says "Free Gasoline" to a pluggable owner?
"Even so, let's guess that the standard batteries have enough juice for, say, 30 miles (can somebody check that?). I'd still like to know the specific numbers on the cost of "refilling" that battery from the 110 volt outlet in the garage rather than from the gas station."
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You will never get a useful specific number until you know (not guess) the capacity of the battery. Ask the car dealer. (There is no dealer near me).
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You will never get a useful specific number until you know (not guess) the capacity of the battery. Ask the car dealer. (There is no dealer near me).
ASKER CERTIFIED SOLUTION
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ASKER
Thanks. So basically the Prius gasoline engine runs constantly -- except perhaps when coasting downhill.
Does the engine turn off when idling at a stoplight?
I understand there is a certain inefficency in restarting an internal compustion engine, so there could be a benefit to leaving it running at very low revs.
I think the answer to my original question might be:
Making a truly pluggable (or all-electric) automobile would require a much larger, much more expensive battery and that's why the first hybrids are not pluggable.
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I'm still interested in cost-per-mile of driving on electricity alone (and I'm also interested in any other directions that a scientific discussion about these issues might go).
Does the engine turn off when idling at a stoplight?
I understand there is a certain inefficency in restarting an internal compustion engine, so there could be a benefit to leaving it running at very low revs.
I think the answer to my original question might be:
Making a truly pluggable (or all-electric) automobile would require a much larger, much more expensive battery and that's why the first hybrids are not pluggable.
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I'm still interested in cost-per-mile of driving on electricity alone (and I'm also interested in any other directions that a scientific discussion about these issues might go).
SOLUTION
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rid
"The battery in a Prius hybrid has a surprisingly low Ah rating, but it has a high output voltage (like 300 V or thereabouts)."
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I am interested in the battery. The output you say is at 300 volts. Just what is the
Ah rating?
"The battery in a Prius hybrid has a surprisingly low Ah rating, but it has a high output voltage (like 300 V or thereabouts)."
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I am interested in the battery. The output you say is at 300 volts. Just what is the
Ah rating?
SOLUTION
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ASKER
I see... the Prius "spins up" the engine before starting to feed it gasoline -- so there is no inefficiency in restarting. Very clever.
I found this interesting tidbit
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/06/01/toyota-s-prius-in-europe-gets-a-button-we-don-t/
http://www.foursprung.com/2006/06/foursprung-hacking-prius.html
THe European version of the Prius has a button that disables the gasoline engine to allow electric-only operation, for local, low-speed driving. It shortens the battery life somewhat.
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This shows how to use a bunch of low-cost ($2000) lead-acid batteries to make your own pluggable hybrid:
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/PriusPlus
Two "telling" points, listed under "Advantages"
* Pure electric propulsion at up to 34 mph for up to 10-12 miles per charge
* Lower gasoline use at all speeds until the PHEV battery is depleted
Displacement of gasoline:
at an equivalent energy cost of less than $1.00/gallon (at up to $0.09/kWh), possibly using low-cost nighttime electricity if your utility provides optional time-of-use metering
... the first point is the very limited nature of all-electic propulsion (10-12 mile gets to the market, but not to work)
... the second is the first cost-per-distance number I've read *anywhere*
I found this interesting tidbit
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/06/01/toyota-s-prius-in-europe-gets-a-button-we-don-t/
http://www.foursprung.com/2006/06/foursprung-hacking-prius.html
THe European version of the Prius has a button that disables the gasoline engine to allow electric-only operation, for local, low-speed driving. It shortens the battery life somewhat.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This shows how to use a bunch of low-cost ($2000) lead-acid batteries to make your own pluggable hybrid:
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/PriusPlus
Two "telling" points, listed under "Advantages"
* Pure electric propulsion at up to 34 mph for up to 10-12 miles per charge
* Lower gasoline use at all speeds until the PHEV battery is depleted
Displacement of gasoline:
at an equivalent energy cost of less than $1.00/gallon (at up to $0.09/kWh), possibly using low-cost nighttime electricity if your utility provides optional time-of-use metering
... the first point is the very limited nature of all-electic propulsion (10-12 mile gets to the market, but not to work)
... the second is the first cost-per-distance number I've read *anywhere*
SOLUTION
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ASKER
Relevant quotes from those links:
* Instead of a battery with a capacity of about 1 kWh of power like an ordinary hybrid, [PHEV]
batteries will have a capacity of 9-10 kWh of power. This will enable the PHEV to drive like a
fully electric vehicle for up to 40 miles before the gas engine kicks in.
My observation:
A regular hybid must have about 1/10th of that distance capacity -- 4 miles; that's in line with info from other sources)
* EVs are so efficient that the cost per mile driven is significantly less. For instance, a 2002
Toyota RAV4 will travel 100 miles on 4 gallons of gasoline. At $2.50/gallon, this is $10.00.
A 2002 Toyota RAV4 EV will travel 100 miles on 30 kWh of electricity. At 10 cents per kWh,
this is $3.00.
My observation:
At $4.00 per gallon, that's $16.00 in gas vs $3.00 in electricity -- a *very* significant difference. One should probably amortize the extra cost of the batteries which might be around $0.07 per mile ($10,000 for 150,000 miles of battery life[at a guess]), putting the EV cost at about $10.00 rather than $3.00).
* It's like having a second fuel tank that you always use first -- only you fill up at home, from
a regular outlet, at an equivalent cost of under $1/gallon.
My observation:
That's in line with info from the other source; and it could be considerably less in areas where nightime electricity is cheaper.
One of those linked to the wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
* The cost of electricity for a Prius PHEV is about $0.03 per mile, based on 0.26 kW·h/mi ...
In 2008, a PHEV can travel 30 miles for just $1.04
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So, I think my questions have been answered.
* Instead of a battery with a capacity of about 1 kWh of power like an ordinary hybrid, [PHEV]
batteries will have a capacity of 9-10 kWh of power. This will enable the PHEV to drive like a
fully electric vehicle for up to 40 miles before the gas engine kicks in.
My observation:
A regular hybid must have about 1/10th of that distance capacity -- 4 miles; that's in line with info from other sources)
* EVs are so efficient that the cost per mile driven is significantly less. For instance, a 2002
Toyota RAV4 will travel 100 miles on 4 gallons of gasoline. At $2.50/gallon, this is $10.00.
A 2002 Toyota RAV4 EV will travel 100 miles on 30 kWh of electricity. At 10 cents per kWh,
this is $3.00.
My observation:
At $4.00 per gallon, that's $16.00 in gas vs $3.00 in electricity -- a *very* significant difference. One should probably amortize the extra cost of the batteries which might be around $0.07 per mile ($10,000 for 150,000 miles of battery life[at a guess]), putting the EV cost at about $10.00 rather than $3.00).
* It's like having a second fuel tank that you always use first -- only you fill up at home, from
a regular outlet, at an equivalent cost of under $1/gallon.
My observation:
That's in line with info from the other source; and it could be considerably less in areas where nightime electricity is cheaper.
One of those linked to the wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
* The cost of electricity for a Prius PHEV is about $0.03 per mile, based on 0.26 kW·h/mi ...
In 2008, a PHEV can travel 30 miles for just $1.04
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So, I think my questions have been answered.
ASKER
One related item that came up in my reading is summarized here:
Plug-in hybrid / Vehicle-to-grid electricity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid#Vehicle-to-grid_electricity
The idea is that at some future date, there could be millions of EV and PHEVs parked in garages recharging at night. If those cars could be used to provide electricity to the grid during the day, then we'd have a distributed network for electrical storage -- which could have all kinds of benefits, including avoiding having to build new power plants.
Related: A problem with direct solar-cell electricity is that it's only available during the day (and cloud-cover can also be a factor), so it could *never* completely replace other energy sources. However, if a massive distributed storage system existed, that problem is moot.
Plug-in hybrid / Vehicle-to-grid electricity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid#Vehicle-to-grid_electricity
The idea is that at some future date, there could be millions of EV and PHEVs parked in garages recharging at night. If those cars could be used to provide electricity to the grid during the day, then we'd have a distributed network for electrical storage -- which could have all kinds of benefits, including avoiding having to build new power plants.
Related: A problem with direct solar-cell electricity is that it's only available during the day (and cloud-cover can also be a factor), so it could *never* completely replace other energy sources. However, if a massive distributed storage system existed, that problem is moot.
ASKER
Thanks for the comments and the links. I was hoping for a more far-reaching discussion of related issues, but that's secondary -- I did get the answers to the specific questions I asked.
But as a matter of fact, they do. (if youdefine turn off right)