Protected Dead Bodies under the Earth

No, not unless the earth is frozen, or contains some natural preservative.

And even then, the body still changes. Body cells are damaged by freezing, but there have been some good examples, as in the discovery of the dead crew members of the Franklin Expedition to the Antartic, in 1984, know as the Beechey Island exhumations...

Beechey Island... http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/mspot/arc/beattie.jpg

Stone Age...  http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/02/06/1562968.htm

                      http://ancientstandard.com/2007/03/28/otzi-the-iceman-%E2%80%93-part-34-frozen-fritz%E2%80%99s-fatal-foray-ca-3300-bc/

Plenty of examples of mammoths too.

Other than freezing, there are natural preservatives that mummify the body, preventing normal biologiocal decay. There have been incidents of bodies being found in peatlands such as bogs, moors and peat swamp forests in northern europe, where the natural preservative is peat, formed by a partially decayed plants and is acidic. The acid in the peat, along with the lack of oxygen underneath the surface, preserves the body. I link a couple of examples below.

Tollund Man...  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollund_Man

Grauballe Man... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grauballe_Man

protect from what?
do you mean "for centuries"?

ZeeshanArshad,

In addition to ozo's questions, it might also help us understand what you need to know, if you would tell us of why you are concerned about this.

According to my research on Religions, Science and Earth, It is usually impossible but the practical observation is that these bodies decay in Earth in some weeks only.

My question is not to freeze the earth or bones. I'm talking about complete human body that is fully safe so the Eaarth does not decay that not even in some weeks but they are protected and safe since centuries.

Can anyone tell me how is it possible?

peat bogs that are acidic and anaerobic have preserved bodies for centuries
others have been preserved in a salt mines or in a glacier

As well as the freezing and natural preservatives mentioned above,  drying also helps preserve the body. Burials in hot desert areas have left mummies such as the one called 'Ginger' who is in the British Museum.

http://www.mummytombs.com/museums/uk.london.british.highlights.room64.htm

Here is a better explanation of how Ginger came to be preserved:

http://www.egyptorigins.org/ginger.htm

The mention of the Philosophy and Religion section made me remember a saint I saw in Goa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Xavier

"He died at Sancian on the 3 December 1552 while he was waiting for a boat that would agree to take him to mainland China."

"His incorrupt body was taken from the island in February 1553 and was temporarily buried in St. Paul's church in Malacca on 22 March 1553. An open grave in the church now marks the place of Xavier's burial. Pereira came back from Goa, removed the corpse shortly after 15 April 1553, and moved it to his house.
On 11 December 1553 Xavier's body was shipped to Goa. The body is now in the Basilica of Bom Jesus in Goa, where it was placed in a glass container encased in a silver casket on 2 December 1637."

He is still lying there. We were told that they used to take him out on a cart once a year to lead a procession around the town, but this was stopped when a fanatic leapt on the body and bit one of his toes off. He now rests in his glass case where he can be viewed. There was no explanation given to us about the lack of decomposition of his body, but it was this that caused him to become cannonised.

OK, I have seen Ginger. But this is not in 100% original condition as we are alive now.

I'm asking about a human bodies that are like in sleeping condition. Even after death and thousands centuries, they have no effect on their bodies. If we see those bodies, it looks like they are just sleeping.

There is no chemical, no glass equipment, no scientific material, no medicine - NOTHING AT ALL!

We just place a dead body in the Earth and after some weeks it's no more in 100% condition. So, who are those people whose bodies are protected?

This was originally posted in Philosophy and Religion, so should we assume that you will eventually be coming at this from a religious angle; perhaps in reference to the incorruptibility of some Catholic saints?

By the way, the Catholic church will not allow scientist to examine the bodies of Saints like Xavier and Bernadette.  As is often the case, a wax mask will be placed over the face to give the appearance of a perfectly preserved body, when there actually substantial decomposition, but some preservation due to environmental conditions or specific oxygen-free burial processes.

But to answer your question; there is no process, natural or artificial, that will preserve a body in a 'sleep-like' state.  Even cryonics does not preserve the body without irreversible tissue damage.

Hello Graphixer,

1. yes, I posted originally in Phisolophy and Religion because this comes to that point.

2. You said that there is no process, natural or artificial to preserve a body in sleep-like state.

- However, I have proofs of such several bodies which are preserved since centuries in sleep-like condition. Those are dead bodies under the Earth. We know that Earth has no brain or super power to preserve bodies of "specific" group of people.

Then whose are those people? Why their bodies have been protected by Earth itself? Isn't this amazing or something to think about?

Yes, who are these people that have been perfectly preserved under the Earth?  I think most of us would have heard of such a thing.

I knew this going to get weird...

"perfectly preserved" means they look exactly as the day they were "stored away."

WaterStreet
- Yes, look like they were stored today under the Earth

So my questions are why they are protected?

What is the proof that a person will be preserved under the Earth?

Where is that proof written?

Furthermore, Is someone controlling OR ordering Earth to preserve those dead bodies?

Does the Earth itself has some power like this?

Why is who protected?  

Where are these mysterious perfectly-preserved human bodies you talk about?

Sure, I would like to share my research.

Because It is obvious that earth does not have the power and capacity to protect any dead body in itself.
So it is perfect that this protection is by the order of someone the greatest and his pleasure.

First, I would like to ask one question, do you have any record in world's history about preserved human bodies which are found and belong to one or many religions?

>Because It is obvious that earth does not have the power and capacity to protect any dead body in itself.

I think we all agree on that.


>So it is perfect that this protection is by the order of someone the greatest and his pleasure.

Hold your horses. If you showed that our understanding of biology/geology/whatever else were incorrect, it would not logically follow that some divine intelligence was behind it - that is a complete non sequitur. Who's to say there might not be some natural explanation for it that we'd never thought of?


Perhaps you should present your research before we go any further...

Sure, here you go! You may check out following links to study about answer about my question.

1. http://www.rightfulreligion.com/qa.php
2. http://www.rightfulreligion.com/qa_nonmuslims.php

Perhaps, you may have record of a preserved body in your religion, If that is true, I would love to know about that. If a body is preserved in its original condition found in history.

So, should I expect  that my question is unanswerable here or wait for someone to answer?

ZeeshanArshad

Since the question is in the maths & science area, and you have received factual answers, I await your presentation of evidence of long dead bodies preserved in a sleep-like state.

Jason:

Did you mean to represent "Scientific and Mathematical" proof of dead bodies?

Well, scientific evidence at least.

Your question originally appeared to be a scientific one(that's why it was moved here). You asked "Is the Earth able to protect the dead bodies...?" and the answers you received were also scientific. Conditions such as freezing, absence of oxygen and high acid content of soil were all natural conditions found on the earth that will protect bodies to some degree.

So I think we're all awaiting some new other scientific information about  how the earth can preserve bodies, that has not already been discussed.

ok, let me explain, I posted this originally in Philosophy and Religions because It belongs to the one who controls acid, oxygen, earth and whatever in this universe.

Let me share "how earth can preserve bodies"...

It is usually impossible but the practical observation is that these bodies decay in Earth in some weeks only.

It is a reality that Earth is not able to protect the dead bodies of Mankind,  animals and birds in itself but the dead bodies of truthful thousands Muslims are protected in it only by the order of God and his pleasure .

I have placed all details on website which you should read to know the reality:
http://www.rightfulreligion.com/qa.php

There will never be any scientific proof of this protection because this is being controlled by the lord of this universe and this protection is his undeniable sign on this earth.

If there is anyone who can answer to my question or represent a proof of any dead body from any other religion except Islam, then I would love to know about that.

I don't know if the same is true in Islam as I was taught in a Christian school, but it sounds like you are trying to test something that you have been told is true according to your religious beliefs. In Christianity this is not acceptable, certainly not encouraged. You are not supposed to test to see if what you have been told is true, it's part of your faith.

From a fragmented memory of one scripture lesson years ago I found this - a bit paraphrased but the meaning is still in there:

"Gideon puts a lamb's fleece on the ground. If God will deliver Israel, then the lamb's fleece will be wet in the morning and the ground around it will be dry. The next morning it is so. That ought to satisfy him, right? Wrong! Wanting to be sure, and hoping that God won't get too mad, Gideon asks Him to do it again, but this time with the opposite result (i.e., the fleece dry and the ground wet).

The whole point of the passage is that God, not man, is the deliverer. God had already told Gideon what to do. Gideon was questioning the integrity of God. Lord, forgive me for the times I have looked for sign instead of seeking Your face."

If you are looking for evidence that these preserved bodies exist/don't exist or could only have been preserved by natural means or only by a deity then perhaps you are questioning your own faith a bit too deeply.

RobinD:

I'm not trying to prove something by stats or science.

Now I have a question for you, did you or anyone in your religion found a body which is preserved since centuries? Do you have any record or is there any record in history of world?

My question is very simple and there is no philosophy and formula.

Furthermore, according to my research, I didn't find any record of preserved dead bodies except in religion Islam. Therefore, I came here to ask all of you to let me know the answer of my question.

Is there any example of protected dead body of a Christian that you placed under the grave and opened after some weeks and that was in preserved state?

I never would have guessed this was Islamic propaganda. One word, ZeeshanArshad: evolution. Read it and weep.

Besides, your question has been answered. But to repeat it:

>Now I have a question for you, did you or anyone in your religion found a body which is preserved since centuries? Do you have any record or is there any record in history of world?

No, none of us do. But neither do you! So, where is this going?

>Is there any example of protected dead body of a Christian that you placed under the grave and opened after some weeks and that was in preserved state?

Yes. The body of Saint Francis Xavier that I mentioned earlier. He was buried after his death on 3 December 1552 and later when he was exhumed in February 1553, presumably so he could be buried in more holy ground, it was observed that after three months underground his body was incorrupt. He was buried again in St. Paul's church in Malacca on 22 March 1553. The poor man was dug up yet again to be taken to Goa where he still is.

There may be others, I just remember him because I saw his tomb while I was in Goa.

Interactive Mind:

If you don't have answer, I don't need your words. I have been researching on religions, that's it. So you may leave this board if you don't have any answer.

Thanks Robin,

This is helpful for me. I will continue further research.

Have a good day,
- Zeeshan

As I stated earlier, the 'incorrupt' bodies of the Catholic saints are hardly incurrupt.  But at least they have bodies to scrutinize.  Where are all these incorrupt Muslim bodies?  There must be millions of them by now?

>bodies of the Catholic saints are hardly incurrupt

Some of the saints in the photos on that site I posted look positively healthy. There could be different explanations of why they are preserved so well, but the church doesn't like people cutting bits off their saints to test them.

St. Xavier, it said, was buried with a couple of layers of quicklime to speed the deterioration of his body so they only needed to transport his bones back. It must have been quite a shock when they found him lying quite intact.

Another of the saints mentioned on that site are described as still having blue eyes, that sounds like a fairly well preserved body to me.

Blue eyes eh?  Well, it is posted on a web site, so it must be true, right?

As I said, St. Bernadette has a wax 'facade' on her hands and face to cover any decomposition.  I suspect this is the case for the others, if they're not full wax figures outright.

And isn't it odd that nobody is allowed to examine the bodies outside of the church hierarchy?  Scientists wouldn't need to 'cut bits' from them.  A simple external physical exam, and maybe an MRI would do the trick.  Heck, all they'd have to do is open one of their 'supple' eyelids and examine their eyes.  It takes ten seconds.

There's a rational reason for everything, and the most rational reason for the incorrput saints is to provide an attraction to bring in visitors and pad church and city coffers.

The 'incorrupt' body of Saint Virginia Ceturione Bracelli hardly looks incorrupt.  Nor does Saint Zita.  I guess they had a hard time finding someone to make the wax casts?

After 500 or so years sitting in a church with lighted candles all around and people coming along breathing moisture and touching, even stone will show some signs of decay. Like Schrodingers cat, you don't know if they would have remained better preserved if they had been left undisturbed in the ground. What I find interesting is that these 250 saints were only discovered to be preserved because they were dug up to be taken to some other final resting place. That's 250 of a relatively small number of missionarys. How many thousands of ordinary people might be lying under the ground unrotted? It's not something that can easily be investigated.

What I was originally investigating is a body that we simply PLACE under the Earth and it should be in 100% condition without any incorruption.  When I say 100% it means, a real human just as he slept (without breathe because he is dead).

I realized that these bodies are not 100% in original condition as we "alive" human are. Also, they are not inside grave yet so this is not a proof that no chemical or something used to care their bodies.

REAL BODY:
===========
I have records and graves where dead bodies are under the Earth since centuries and they are in real condition as we "alive" human are.

BLOOD:
=======
Even if someone was injured when the time he died, his/her blood is still in FRESH condition.

QUESTION:
=========
Do any dead bodies of people found as mentioned in given URLS,  have everything 100% including BLOOD in fresh condition?

Look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Virginia_Centurione_body.jpg

QUESTIONS:
==========
- Is this look like how we alive human are?

- Is it this under the Earth? Why this is placed inside Glasses?

I'm sorry folks, but unless a team of non-dogmatic scientists unearths a perfectly preserved body and can't find any explanation for it, I don't think any of us are going to believe any nonsense about bodies remaining 100% 'fresh' for even just a few weeks or months, never mind a few years or hundreds of years.  In fact, actual scientists are unearthing graves all the time, but none have found what you're describing.  You'd think at least one of them would have written up one of these 'miracles' in a journal somewhere...if it were true, that is.

Everything decays.  We may be able to slow that decay, but there is no way, Earthly or Heavenly, to stop it.

But let's just imagine, for a moment, that the Catholic church does indeed have bodies of humans that have experienced no decay whatsoever.  Don't you think modern medical science could benefit from examining this phenomenon and potentially develop innumerable cures for aging and disease?  Wouldn't it be a crime against humanity to disallow the examination of these bodies?  

This could also potentially prove to the entire world, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Catholicism is the one, true religion.  But it will never happen, and I think you know why.

These aren't miracles.  This is wishful thinking.  If you have real evidenceto the contrary, please present it.  So far, all you have areridiculous claims and pictures of elaborate wax masks covering leatheryskin and bones.  An image of the Virgin Mary emblazoned on a piece oftoast is more convincing than these fabricated tourist traps.

>This is wishful thinking.

Similarly on your part. You are asking for evidence of something you don't believe. Fair enough, I'm sure if you were presented with such evidence you would be prepared to change your mind. From your point of view you say 'everything decays - and there is no way to stop it', but several religious texts state the opposite. You cannot prove that everything decays, just that everything you are aware of does.

The church however, for a couple of thousand years at least, has been able to teach many things including that some bodies haven't decomposed as expected. Maybe it was helpful to the church sometimes in the past to attribute this preservation to a divine cause so as to strengthen the belief of it's converts.

This is not limited to Catholicism, this thread began asking about bodies protected under Islam.

Although, I have proofs of people dead bodies which are under the Earth and in 100% real condition. Some of them with their fresh blood as well.

It only appeared in religion Islam and for True Muslims. As I stated the word "true" because there are thousands of Muslims dead bodies as well which have been decayed.

So It means that those several True Muslims are the one whom the God is happy with.

RobinD, religious texts also mention virgin births, a woman turning into a pillar of salt, water tuning into wine, a man living in a whale, a global flood and a talking snake.  All of these scenarios are physically impossible.  Religious texts are not science books!  

The Catholic church has a tradition of fighting science at every turn.  The era of Europe under the heel of Catholic rule wasn't deemed 'The Dark Ages' because they liked to drink Guinness.  We seem to have lost  a thousand years of progress because of dogmatism like this.  And it seems we're still losing out on progress to this day.

And it's not my job to disprove outlandish claims.  It's the responsibility of the one making the claim to prove that the claim is true.  The credo; "innocent until proven guilty" comes to mind.  Religion is the prosecution, and must present their evidence that proves the claim beyond reasonable doubt.  As it is, there is plenty of reason to doubt religious claims.

Proving these bodies are incorrupt can be done easily by letting them be examined.  What I'm asking is for a claim to be verified, just like any other claim.  Why not give this a chance to really be a miracle?  But again, it will never happen.  

It's no accident that religions rely on faith and nothing else.  No bit of evidence to prove the divine has ever come forward without a rational explaination.  If you can present something that's irrefutably miraculous, I would certainly reconsider my views.

The wonders of the real world are far more amazing than anything any religion can come up with.  Please join us in marveling at reality.

> virgin births, a woman turning into a pillar of salt, water tuning into wine, a man living in a whale, a global flood and a talking snake

I was given some possible explanations for some of these things at school, not explanations necessarily of how they occurred, but explanations of how these things could have been reported to have occurred. I've added a couple of my own.

Water into wine - there is a quote somewhere in there about 'saving the best wine until last' so you are getting reports from a group who are already drunk about exactly how the water suddenly became wine.

Man in a whale - wasn't he thrown overboard by his mates for causing the storm? Then cheating certain death and possibly delerious he gets saved and babbles something about being eaten by a giant fish - there were no other witnesses.

Global flood - All the known world was under water, they didn't have the benefit of helicopters etc. that we have now. Look at the pictures of New Orleans a couple of years ago, anybody in the middle of that with no radio and only oxen for transport might have been convinced that this was 'the big one' that the prophecies had been going on about.

Talking snake - symbolism, telling girls to beware of snake-like objects in case they lose their innocence.

Pillar of salt - they were told to run and not to look back. She turned to look back, but who saw her turn into a pillar of salt? Her husband can't have seen or he would have had to look back himself. (Or an atomic explosion has been offered, except I don't think it matters which wy you are looking if you get mixed up with one of those)

Virgin birth - drunken night out with the girls, finds she is in trouble and invents a marvellous story with which she manages to convince her fiance.

Incorrupt saints' bodies - there are several around the world mostly on view and I'm sure fully documented before the information was copied to the internet.

The church does have a history of disliking science, probably because it diluted their power when ordinary people started to be able to question things that previously could only be answered by the priests. It would be a bad thing if a few cat-scans of some holy relics showed them to be fake and threw the whole history of religion into doubt. We need to be able to believe in a deity, we have that ability built into us and it wouldn't be there unless it had at least once been neccesary for our survival.

>without a rational explaination

Before science learned enough to question various teachings the only explanation people had for something otherwise incomprehensible was that God did it, and if they dared ask why they were told it was because He wanted it that way. This worked quite well for several thousand years. It wasn't that long ago that we stopped thinking that the earth was flat, and we only believe that it is round now because we were brought up that way. You have been taught that it is round and given many ways to see the proof of it ,and will find it hard to believe it can be any other shape, but if you had been born two thousand years ago you would have been told it was flat and the sun went round it. You don't need much proof of that, why even question something so obvious to anyone who looks outdoors. It looks flat and it looks like the sun goes round it. The only questions you would likely to have asked would be 'how did it get here?' and 'who pushes the sun round?'.

Rational explanations will always be found eventually, but you have to admit that even though the saints' bodies do show a little wear, they are a lot better preserved than you might expect considering their age.

Zeeshan, why are the True Muslims' bodies preserved? Are they going to be used again?

"Incorrupt saints' bodies - there are several around the world mostly on view and I'm sure fully documented before the information was copied to the internet."

You're being sarcastic, right?  You're taking scripture as metaphor and allegory (as you should), but taking anonymous internet scribblings as fact?

As I said, once we see an independent scientific perspective on these bodies, then we can talk.  As it is, I don't think we can place much trust in the people that brought us indulgences - essentially get-out-of-hell cards for those with money.  Isn't that like a con artist to manufacture a scare, and then charge people for the cure?  Do star-bellied Sneeches ring a bell?


"It would be a bad thing if a few cat-scans of some holy relics showed them to be fake and threw the whole history of religion into doubt. We need to be able to believe in a deity, we have that ability built into us and it wouldn't be there unless it had at least once been neccesary for our survival."

I couldn't disagree more.  Most of us have an inherent need for community and ritual, love and acceptance, friends and family.  There are a million ways to satisfy these needs apart from religious faith.

We don't need irrational beliefs, especially beliefs that prevent us from finding real answers to life's mysteries.  


And the problem with ideas like a flat-Earth is that there were a lot of people making observations that the Earth was round or spherical.  The Greeks had accepted a spherical Earth in the 4th century BC.  But then science-based-on-scriptures came into play, dogma is enforced with an iron fist, and methodical reasoning was silenced for a thousand years.

We should never be satisfied with our current knowledge.  Everything should be questioned and re-examined, even the idea of a spherical Earth.  Those with faith often accuse scientists of not having an open mind, when it's really the scientists who have the most open minds of anyone.  

Wait...

Yep, it's still spherical, but I'll keep checking.


"Rational explanations will always be found eventually, but you have to admit that even though the saints' bodies do show a little wear, they are a lot better preserved than you might expect considering their age."

You were just saying one of them even kept their blue eyes, and now they show 'a little wear'?  We can explain 'a little wear'.  The argument in this thread was 100% preservation of flesh and blood with no hint of decomp after hundreds of years.  It's not a stretch of reason to say this idea is outright false.

My point here is; if something sounds too good to be true, especially if it defies all rational reasoning and defies all we know to be fact, it probably isn't true, and no amount of scripture is going to make it any more true.

Cheers!

>sarcastic

No, I wasn't, not there. I ws referring to an earlier comment you made about things being true just because they were on the internet. I'm sure any good book of saints that was printed before the invention of the internet will have similar information. I think a printed work is less likely to contain errors than an internet site.

>the problem with ideas like a flat-Earth

You missed my point. My point was not what shape the thing is, but what you have been brought up to believe and the difficulty of changing that belief, or even imagining something different.

>and now they show 'a little wear'

Some of those pictures are horrible to look at because they look so lifelike and others because of the disfigurement.

>sounds too good to be true

I never said I thought keeping thousands of unrotting bodies around was a good thing. If we found out how to do it it could be a useful way to store food, but the only good thing I can think of by keeping loads of old saints around is that it locks some of that carbon dioxide away.

"I think a printed work is less likely to contain errors than an internet site."

I'd hope so. But lots of times, not so much.


"...but what you have been brought up to believe and the difficulty of changing that belief, or even imagining something different. "

I got it.  And my point was if we just took everything at face value without question, we'd still be living in caves.  Dealing with reality makes our lives better.


"Some of those pictures are horrible to look at because they look so lifelike and others because of the disfigurement."

And they look so life-like because...?  

Ever been to a wax museum?  You should go.  They're cool.

RobinD:

Zeeshan, why are the True Muslims' bodies preserved?

1. Why Bodies are Preserved in 100% fresh condition under the Earth?
=======================================================
Because the Earth has been ordered not to damage a true follower of Islam.

Al-Quran: As Allah says in Surah no 2 Verse No 154
"And call not those who are slain in the way of Allah "dead." Nay, they are living, only ye perceive not."

I believe in Islam not because of people. Because, I researched and found undeniable proofs of true religion. No natural sign has been found in a religious book than Quran. And what Quran says is also proved by 100% fresh dead bodies.


2. Are they going to be used again?
=============================
- No, They are not going to be used again. They are under the Earth. There is no artificial and scientific way to preserve a body like this. That is a proof that the Quran is the last and true Holy Book of God.

Because It's found in Quran that earth will not damage any single part or even blood, cloths of True Followers of God. After reading this in Quran, I found this sign in Islam. No other religion has this sign yet.

STILL DOUBT?
============
If someone really wish to see those bodies, we can show them under the Earth for their believe. He/She can touch, taste and feel reality and prove whether that is wax, artificial or real human.


Please use your common sense too
=============================
Please use your common sense to find the reality that if the Holy Quran was not the verses of Allah then
he would not have ordered the earth to protect the dead bodies of those who were followers of this book. So our common sense says by this that the Holy Quran is surely the verses of Almighty Allah.

So I say to non-Muslims mankind and jinn to research about the Holy Quran, that this is verses of Allah or forged from any one. I will be thankful for their research.

ZeeshanArshad says:
"STILL DOUBT?"

Yes, I still doubt.  Show us the bodies.

>Ever been to a wax museum?

Yes, but the only way I see the relevance of that here is if you are suggesting that the near perfect preservation of those saints, the removal from the ground after 56 years burial and 'finding them unblemished, still lying in state and looking as if she only died yesterday' is a complete act of fabrication by the Catholic church. Is this what you are saying?

>if we just took everything at face value without question

I don't mind, question away, but the only group that has access to the answers you want here are religious groups who would prefer you to have faith and not poke around trying to find if they are lying to you. You have to have faith to have the religion, that's the rules. Maybe it's a bit like music, you can enjoy listening to music without it being necessary to understand everything about the instruments. If you spent the time working out how each part was played the tune would be over before you had time to enjoy it.

Zeeshan, thanks. I can't understand why someone would want to keep preserved bodies lying around just to prove that they can do it, I'm sure there are many other ways that proofs can be given. Perhaps that's one of those things we are not supposed to question.

" ...is a complete act of fabrication by the Catholic church. Is this what you are saying?"

As the Monty Python boys would say...oh no, no, no, no, no....mmmm, yes.

OK, I'll give them some credit.  In the old days, people saw dead bodies much more often than we see them today.  I'd imagine after exhuming some of these revered figures, specially stored away, they may have found that these people weren't quite as decayed as they had expected.  Maybe some looked downright 'fleshy' in comparison to the dried-up skeletons they regularly saw.

But I'll say it again, we'll never know.  They'll never let us examine the bodies.


"You have to have faith to have the religion, that's the rules."

Very convenient rules.  I'm sorry to pick on the Catholics, but they get the most excited when something miraculous seems to happen.  Almost like they wait all their lives to say; 'See, I told you so!'  

People are so quick to take some random event or relic and proclaim proof positive of God's existence.  But then when there turns out to be a perfectly mundane reason for said event or phenomenon, they fall back to the 'faith' argument until another 'miracle' appears.

I said it before, if these really were miraculously preserved bodies, the church would invite every scientist in the world to take a look.  But the church doesn't have a very good track record of coming up with actual unexplainable miracles, and they got burned by allowing the Shroud of Turin to be debunked, so they're not going to make that mistake again.


"Maybe it's a bit like music, you can enjoy listening to music without it being necessary to understand everything about the instruments."

Fortunately, we don't formulate public policy according to popular iTunes downloads.  Unfortunately, we often do form public policy based on the writings of iron-age desert dwellers who had very little understanding of how the world really worked.

I play quite a few musical instruments, though none of them well.  But I find the more I know about how a piece of music was put together and the way its subtle dynamics and notation interweaves, the more I enjoy it.  That's how I also see the world.  The more I learn about how it actually works, the more I can truly appreciate its beauty, fragility, and natural wonders.