Holocaust revisionism, sources....

Nice collection, WS!

Of course, I sincerely hope that Mat is looking for information that DISPROVES revisionism, rather than infomration to help bolster revisionism.

That was my first thought I had when I read the question.

Hi there, thanks for the links.. I`ve visited most of them, and they give some info.. but more is needed (On both/all sides).

Regarding the point of "information that DISPROVES revisionism" i`d have to say no. I`m looking for absolutely all relevant info on the subject. (Those who dont do that have no right to speak on the matter, and i want to be able to speak about it..)

If your fear is that i am one of these hated revisionists i can assure you i`m not. I`m worse.. ;-P
I`m one of those that aknowledge that bot sides have good points, and evidence, and as anything else in the world.. they both have liars... The hunt for the reason of the lies is what trigger me.. and what i find interesting.
Since the world have an interest in keeping the memories of these happenings alive i`d say that absolutely all statements on the subject is important.. dialogue is positive no matter how stupid the outcome is.

mattisflones,

At the end of the wakipedia page link above, there were a number of two groupings of links: one froup for denials of the Holocaust and one group for refutations of the denials/revisionists.  Presumabley, these are the major links for each side, as copied below.

Denials of the Holocaust
The Zündelsite (http://www.zundelsite.org) is the most widely read revisionist website.
Lyle Burkhead, "Six Reasons Why the Gas Chamber Story is a Lie" (http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_gas.html) This page presents the basic logic of revisionism in its simplest form.
Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust (http://www.codoh.com), a revisionist website.
David Irving's (http://www.fpp.co.uk) website
Institute for Historical Review website (http://www.ihr.org/)
Holocaust Denial in the Middle East (http://www.adl.org/holocaust/Denial_ME/hdme_genocide_denial.asp) by the ADL
Forty Questions On The Holocaust (http://www.compuserb.com/germandefenseleague/holopov.htm), a series of revisionist arguments.
[edit]

Refutations of revisionism
Responses to Revisionist Arguments (http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/education/revision/) from the Museum of Tolerance
The Holocaust History Project (http://www.holocaust-history.org/)
Proving the Holocaust (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/) from Skeptic Magazine
Holocaust Revisionism (https://www.patrick.af.mil/deomi/Observances%20&%20Demographics/Additional%20Resources/Religious%20Resources/holocst.htm) by the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute.
Holocaust Denial and Nazism (http://skepdic.com/nazism.html)
The Nazi's testimony (http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1386675,00.html), The Guardian, January 10, 2005

Waterstreet, great! Didnt notice those.. Thanx!

>> the claims are so patently ludicrous, you may as well not bother.
Ok, so i guess dachau still should be listed as a camp where the nazis where gassing people. I bet you know a couple of things that you or your parents read in the history books thats wrong.. so, since that is a fact, all history should revised as often as possible.
That you think its ludicrous is fine by me.. Ill grant you that no revisionist ever have given a explaination that couldnt easily be debunked.. but that also goes for the extermisionists... So that would mean that it is stupid to blindly thrust what is written as official history today.
BTW, not to bother is the most dangerous thing anyone can do.. Thats not a thing civilication can live with.

>>I think you can wipe out the arguments thusly: If it really did not hapen, why do the givernments of entire countries apologize and pay huge sums for things that never happened?
Sure, the killings happened, and thats why they pay.. but whats interesting to me, is How, where and why.. and that has never been objectively researced on.
A situation where there are no trustworthy sources on the matter is intollerable for me, and therefore i try to investigate it on my own to see how far i get.. (And ofcourse to laugh of all the stupid attempts from both sides to bury opposing arguments as ludicrous)
So far i havent found any answers that i thrust, i hope ill find it... but i seriously doubt it. I started this investigation a while ago based on my old history books.. when i found things described in there to be false i started to wonder why...

Ps: I chose to not comment on the stalker matter as i find that outside the scope here.. I do not agree. The same goes for conpiration theories, since the truth on a matter tought to be otherwise allways will be regarded as a conspiracy or something like that untill its accepted as the truth by a majority.

mattisflones,

Lots of testimonies of Holocaust survivors and witnesses.  Here is one example from Yale University.

http://www.library.yale.edu/testimonies/about/index.htm
[from About the Archieves]
“In 1979, a grassroots organization, the Holocaust Survivors Film Project, began videotaping Holocaust survivors and witnesses in New Haven, Connecticut. In 1981, the original collection of testimonies was deposited at Yale University, and the Video Archive for Holocaust Testimonies opened its doors to the public the following year. Since then, the Archive has worked to record, collect, and preserve Holocaust witness testimonies, and to make its collection available to researchers, educators, and the general public.
The Archive currently holds more than 4,100 testimonies, which are comprised of over 10,000 recorded hours of videotape. Testimonies are produced in cooperation with 37 affiliated projects across North America, South America, Europe, and Israel, and each project maintains a duplicate collection of locally recorded videotapes.
The Archive and its affiliates continue to record the testimonies of willing individuals with first-hand experience of the Nazi persecutions, including those in hiding, survivors, bystanders, resistants, and liberators. Testimonies are recorded in whatever language the witness prefers, and range in length from one-half hour to 26 hours (recorded over several sessions). “

Excerpts from testimonies
http://www.library.yale.edu/testimonies/excerpts/index.htm

mattisflones > If your fear is that i am one of these hated revisionists i can assure you i`m not. I`m worse.. ;-P

Ok, honesty time, I'm probably more suited to answer of a

qwaletee > In the case of holocaust revisionism, the claims are so patently ludicrous, you may as well not bother

Some remind me of the reality professed that US never sent anything into space, all that was shot on desolate area of Utah or wherever. Cute story, old boring tripe rather quickly

Hence my deference to a WaterStreet to do topic more justice.
Basically I don't give a hoot, either way. <sorry>

You get some stories like an Anne Frank, and they do not come across as mere conjurings of group of self-serving radicals. Add in the recent 'news' celebrating/honoring/remembering Auchwitz, and the past can be brought up to the present.  So something happened. And. It was not nice. Something worth remembering.

OTOH there've been the detractors, so bad at their craft you almost wonder if they were financed by jews. So I have seen the 'ludicrous' word well applicable to some.

Without reviewing the links myself (not my project) I have only one thing I think real important to add here. Holocaust is more a jewish term for sacrifice, lending a rather secular meaning to some events. While surely it had those secular qualities, it is not unique to only them, and bears greated importance that a good review include others. I'll try to find links, I've posted before, but the phraseology is to begin that they came to take away one neighbor, then another, <continuing> and I did not object, it continued on to where they came for me, and when I tried to object, I found no one left around who could be asked to help.  So the answer for me is to stop it in tracks, don't let them take anyone in the first place.

Or, how many deaths in the camps would be too many, a billion? a million? a thousand?

How about?: one.

Isn't one = too many?

So arguing over exactness of bodycounts is rather irrelevant from such perspective.

More popular notions you probably already have, such as compiling who was more heinous, and answer most give was Hitler. However, a case can be made to paint Stalin into a corner arguably worse, for both bodycounts and increasingly indiscriminate discriminating behavior.

But do take a little time to check out how it played out for others than jews, give them their rightful place in history too.

mattisflones > Ok, so i guess dachau still should be listed as a camp where the nazis where gassing people. I bet you know a couple of things that you or your parents read in the history books thats wrong.. so, since that is a fact, all history should revised as often as possible.
> Sure, the killings happened, and thats why they pay.. but whats interesting to me, is How, where and why.. and that has never been objectively researced on.

My assumption is that you are intending to treat the topic honorably, or I would have ignored the thread, as something already overdone. My suggestion is to do you best to eliminate emotion, with a JackWebbian: "Just the facts". And when I mentioned survivors, my meaninig was collecting the information first hand, there's nothing like it, and so little time left to do any of that, they won't live forever. In first hand, there are so many extra tools you have to judge by, concerning recollections, elaborations, etc.  But that takes a very strong genuine interest, unusual to many revisionists (who often overtly avoid direct contact with reality).

Two Hangmen
by Mason Proffit

As I rode into Tombstone, my horse his name was Mac,
I saw what I'll relate to you, goin' on behind my back
It seems that folks were up in arms, a man now had to die,
For saying things that didn't fit the laws they'd set aside.

The man's name was "I'm a Freak", the best that I could see,
He was the executioner, a hangman just like me,
I guess that he'd seen loopholes, from workin' with his rope,
He'd hung the wrong man many times, so now he turned to hope.

He talked to all the people from his scaffold in the square,
He told them of the things he'd found, but they didn't seem to care
He said the laws were obsolete, a change they should demand,
But the people only walked away, he couldn't understand.

The marshall's name was Uncle Sam, he said he'd right this wrong,
He'd make the hangman shut his mouth if it took him all year long,
He finally arrested Freak, and then he sent for me,
To hang a fellow hangman, from a fellow hangman's tree.

It didn't take them long to try him, in their court of law,
He was guilty then of thinking, a crime much worse than all,
They sentenced him to die, so his seed of thought can't spread,
And infect the little children, that's what the law had said.

Well, the hangin' day came round and he walked up to the noose,
I pulled the lever but before he fell I cut him loose,
They called it all conspiracy, and then I had to die,
So to close our mouths and kill our minds, they hung us side by side...

And now we're two hangman, hangin' from a tree,
That don't bother me, at all.
Two hangman, hangin' from a tree,
That don't bother me, at all.

Transcribed by Rich Kulawiec, rsk@ecn.purdue.edu.

/excerpts/
http://www.hoboes.com/html/FireBlade/Politics/niemoller.shtml

Martin Niemoller was an outspoken advocate for accepting the burden of collective guilt for WW II as a means of atonement for the suffering that the German nation (through the Nazis) had caused before and during WW II.

On the other hand, I think that something is missed if one doesn’t understand that the words come from a man who also declared that he “would rather burn his church to the ground, than to preach the Nazi trinity of ‘race, blood, and soil.’”

Niemoller was tainted. He had been a U-boat captain in WW I prior to becoming a pastor. And he supported Hitler prior to his taking power. Indeed, initially the Nazi press held him up as a model... for his service in WW I. [Newsweek, July 10, 1937, pg 32]

But Niemoller broke very early with the Nazis. In 1933, he organized the Pastor’s Emergency League to protect Lutheran pastors from the police. In 1934, he was one of the leading organizers at the Barmen Synod, which produced the theological basis for the Confessing Church, which despite its persecution became an enduring symbol of German resistance to Hitler.

From 1933 to 1937, Niemoller consistantly trashed everything the Nazis stood for. At one point he declared that it was impossible to “point to the German [Luther] without pointing to the Jew [Christ] to which he pointed to.” [from Charles Colson, Kingdoms in Conflict]

he along with 9 other pastors wrote to Hitler:

"That is human conceit rising against God. In this connection we must warn the Führer, that the adoration frequently bestowed on him is only due to God. "

Rev. Martin Niemoller was protected until 1937 by both the foreign press and influential friends in the up-scale Berlin suburb where he preached. Eventually, he was arrested for treason. Perhaps due to foreign pressure, he was found guilty, but initially given only a suspended sentence. He was however then almost immediately re-arrested on Hitler’s direct orders. From then on until the end of WW II, he was held at the Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps. Near the end of the war, he narrowly escaped execution. [from Charles Colson’s Kingdoms in Conflict]

---------------

(one version, other's can have trade-unionists, which may be more original)

First they came for the Communists,
  and I didn’t speak up,
    because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
  and I didn’t speak up,
    because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
  and I didn’t speak up,
    because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
  and by that time there was no one
    left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

The are all kinds of wittness perspectives.
Here are accounts of wittness showing a Africian American perspective.

“For many camp inmates, this was the first instance in their lives that they had ever seen a
black man. As some prisoners later commented:
“I was seventeen, and my life was almost extinguished,” recalled Buchenwald
prisoner Ben Bender. “For me, it was an instant awakening of life after a long
darkness…. I was seeing black soldiers for the first time in my life, crying like
babies, carrying the dead and the starved and trying to help everybody.” “It was the
morning of April 11,” recalled Elie Wiesel, an inmate of Buchenwald. “I will
always remember with love a big black soldier. He was crying like a child—tears
of all the pain in the world and all the rage.”125”

“Accounts of the degree to which the discovery of the camps affected black troops in
particular was evidenced in reports of their reactions towards Buchenwald: “The
conditions in the camps moved many hardened combat men to tears. African-American
soldiers of the 761st Tank Battalion, who were among the first to arrive at Buchenwald,
were soon ‘crying like babies.’ 133”

http://www.hichumanities.org/AHproceedings/Amy%20Lippert%20Thesis%20Part%20I.pdf!

Hi again...
Jeezes theres a lot of crap out there... I guess ill just have to spend some weeks going through all this to filter out the rubbish from the scientifically correct and believable goodies.

Thanx for your links tho.. should keep me busy for a while!

Thank you Mattis