Janesville plant closing

the plant closed before Obama.

So it closed on April 9 2009, after Obama took Office?  At least that's what the article you posted said.

That's only the last day of assembly work.  The decision to close it was announced June 3, 2008 and most production was stopped on December 23, 2008.

Ok......so when did it close?  A date?

That article says that assembly work stopped there in April 2009 but there were "40 to 50 "skilled trade employees" worked to decommission the plant".  This article http://mylocal2209.org/component/content/article/1-latest-news/322-janesville-gm-plant-not-likely-to-reopen-many-say/  says that they are 'not closed' but 'not likely to reopen'.  So it appears to be politics in what they say about the plant.

If it's about politicians, all I can say is None of them are welcome in my house.

Beetos, can u say the Plant closed under bush,  leave off the 'for all intents and purpose', that's the same as virtually.  What day did the plant stop making trucks and who was in office.

This got me wondering,  we close at work for thanksgiving, does that mean for all intents and purposes we're closed from now until then?

@bergertime, if you would read the article, it answers all those questions.

bergertime,

Let it go, already, and accept the fact that the Bush economy led to the effective shutdown in 2008.  

Or, are you after some misleading talking point like the lies that have been institutionalized in the Republication Convention.  

Shameful!

No what I keep wondering is why the media keeps saying that the plant closed under Bush, when in fact it did not.  Not that it really matters, Ryan didn't say it did, he was attacking Obama's stimlus, or as liberals call it the Summer of recovery.  What did Obama say?

"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years."

Reads to me  like this "If you elect me I promise to keep this plant open for a 100 years.".

Here's what Lying Ryan said....
"A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: 'I believe that if our government is there to support you ... this plant will be here for another hundred years.' That's what he said in 2008.

"Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day."


Looks like to me he nailed it.  What part of that is a lie?  Obama was elected, was the Obama gov't not there for GM or did it just fail, or maybe it was just Obama that failed.

Shameful, even more so the media.  Please otherwise point out what Ryan lied about in the above statement.......you can't because he didn't , it was Obama who failed.

Berger,

You do realize that you're trying to hold Obama to something he didn't actually say, though it's exactly what Ryan inferred which is why he's being called a liar.


The plant went from 2700 employees to 57, in December of 2008, who remained only an additional 4 months to finish a project.   Obviously, the plant was finished.   Your partisan eyes won't see that, even though they see something that wasn't there with Obama.   Very telling.

ELW - extra credit for you for attempting to redirect this very narrow, direct question to some of your cronies favorite Obama/Dem bashing theme:  that ending the practice of red-lining lead to the housing bubble burst, and referencing that bastion of journalistic integrity, the Daily Caller ( even Fox News doesn't take Tucker Carlson seriously!)

>>The plant went from 2700 employees to 57, in December of 2008,

If only Bain had come in and turned it around.  Might be another success story, such as Staples, a company Obama's campaign shops frequently.


Beetos, sources were cited and backed up.  Suppose you can show otherwise?


>>ELW - extra credit for you for attempting to redirect this very narrow,

Just correcting the liberal distortions.

beetos,

You're telling me what I posted above is not what Obama said?  Really?  That is excatly what he said.  How many links do you need?  And none will be from Fox.  He didn't say it?  Yes he did.

"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years."

Here is the video where he says it!

Fine I don't disagree, the plant was ____________ for closure, but you can not say the plant was closed under Bush, it's just not true, it was closed under Obama.  And the whole media is reporting it was closed under Bush, but they were still putting out trucks under Obama.
Beetos, yes or no........was the plant still producing trucks under Obama?

Your source, the Daily Caller is clearly invalid - it's more of an opinion piece and the data is suspect, but it servers it's purpose to rile you guys  up.

How about this - how many auto manufacturing plants are STILL open, creating products and providing jobs, THANKS to Obama's policies?   THANKS to the auto bailout?

>>How about this - how many auto manufacturing plants are STILL open, creating products and providing jobs, THANKS to Obama's policies?  


-GM to close Volt plant

-Chevy Volt Makes NO Money, Costs Taxpayers Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars Per Car

-GM sells 1,760 Volts in June, double from 2011


>>Your source, the Daily Caller is clearly invalid -

Look at their sources.  Referenced in the article.  You can click and see everything they're reporting on.  Obama IS directly in part responsible for the 2008 financial collapse.

Show me where Obama said:

"If you elect me I promise to keep this plant open for a 100 years."

He DID NOT!  But guess what - he DID keep GM open, so if you're going to attack him for this one plant that was effectively closed before he even took office,

Yet, your making the case that a company that laid off 98% of it's workers was still valid.   Sure dude, sure.    I guess Solyndra is still open too then, so you need to stop attacking Obama for that?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-31/solyndra-seeks-more-time-to-negotiate-reorganization-plan.html

>>But guess what - he DID keep GM open,

-GM profits slip 41%

-GM Ramps Up Risky Subprime Auto Loans To Drive Sales
(where have we seen this before?????)

-As GM shares near record low, taxpayer loss on bailout rises to $35 billion

THE ONLY GROUP TO BENEFIT WERE THE UNIONS

UAW union cleans up on GM stock sale

“Priority one was serving the interests of the UAW” when the White House’s auto task force engineered the bankruptcy, said Glenn Reynolds, an analyst at CreditSights. The stock offering served to show once again how the White House has handsomely rewarded its political allies, he said.

Show me where Obama said:

"If you elect me I promise to keep this plant open for a 100 years."

Oh, liberal flim-flam.  Beeto, that's a sign you are losing.  No a single quote I posted  has said what you just posted.  I'm not attacking Obama for it, if anything I'm attacking the media for saying Ryan lied, which he didn't. As per the quotes, which you fail at proving are false.  

Other than beetos, who has said I was making a point to what it sounded like to me:
"If you elect me I promise to keep this plant open for a 100 years."

But while we're at it what did Obama mean by:
"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years."

Berger,

This is how poor your argument is - you can't even acknowledge that you said something, when it's been written on the internet for all to see!

Not only id dyou say that in your post, I COPIED AND PASTED IT DIRECTLY FROM YOUR POST:


Since you can't seem to operate the scroll button, here's a handy link for you:
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/27849996/Janesville-plant-closing.html?anchorAnswerId=38363617#a38363617


That's such a blatant and easily disprovable fallacy on your part - no wonder you like the Romney/Ryan campaign!

Eric,

If Obama was wrong to save GM, why should he have gone back in time to before he was President to save this company?    Which is it?  

Saving an auto plant is either good for society or isn't, but it can't be good when Obama does it and bad when he doesn't - regardless of what the GOP would have you believe.

No a single quote I posted  has said what you just posted

beetos, do I need to explain what a quote is?  As per my post above...

"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years."

Reads to me  like this "If you elect me I promise to keep this plant open for a 100 years.".


THIS is not a quote.

Quote

"I guess Solyndra is still open too then, so you need to stop attacking Obama for that?"

  Are you making the argument Obama needs to give them another half billon dollars?  Did anybody here say they had closed?  But please beetos, do tell is Solyndra closed down or not?

Dammit Berger - you're making my head hurt;

You basically made Ryan's exact claim - you took Obama's words, and then said what YOU thought they mean.   DID YOU NOT???       Even though that's not the exact meaning, you changed it to what you wanted, which is what Ryan did, which is ridiculous.

Solyndra, while it still may exist in some form, failed as a company as did the Jamesville plant.  

Ryan is suggesting the Jamesville plant is closed because Obama failed to keep his campaign promise.  You're taking it a step further saying the plant didn't close, and Obama is still to blame.

I'm making the counter point that if the Jamesville plant is still open, then so is Solyndra, so they haven't actually failed yet - just trying to use the same logic you are, and I hope you can see how wrong that is.

>>If Obama was wrong to save GM, why should he have gone back in time to before he was President to save this company?  

No clue what you're talking about.  

Bottom line is tax payers lost billions on that deal and the unions won big.  This deal put Obama ahead of Hugo Chavez in the amount of private businesses now controlled by the government.

Dammit Berger - you're making my head hurt;

Means I'm getting thru.  :)

"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years."

How does this read to you?  It makes no difference when the plant closed does it?  The only thing I'm pointing out is the media got it wrong.  It was still producing trucks under Obama.  Look how the media has jumped on the band wagon and pointed out Ryan is lying because the plant closed down under Bush, which is false.....a closed plant does not produce trucks everyday.  So the media is wrong  Ryan didn't lie did he.

Yes, in watching the video and reading the words he said, it did appear to me that Obama line:

"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years."

was meant to convey that if elected, he would keep the plant open for another 100 years.  That's the reason I posted this:
Reads to me  like this "If you elect me I promise to keep this plant open for a 100 years.".

It was not a quote.  Can you show where:

"You basically made Ryan's exact claim - you took Obama's words, and then said what YOU thought they mean"......can you show me where Ryan misquoted Obama?

Oh yeah you head would hurt less if you watched more fox news.  :)

"BTW, Obama gave that quotation in January 2008, and then GM announced the closing in June 2008."


Berger, you've started this question to dispell the notion that Ryan is lying, by splitting hairs about whether the plant actually closed in December of 2008 or sometime later in 2009.


But Ryan said this:

 "Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year."

So he's either lying about the plant closing in 2008, or lying about it not lasting another year.

Which lie do you prefer?

You guys might as well be argueing with your own brick walls, because no one here is going to change anyone else's minds.  Can you just close the question and approve the 50 points?  The majority of the plant closed before Obama was presendent. GM still lists the plant as suspended, so if you look at it that way the plan never closed and this was a trick question. Either way the question is answered.

>>Can you just close the question and approve the 50 points?

There's an option call "unmonitor" - use it.



>>The government, at that time in the Bush administration, was not there to support the auto industry.

Since when is that the government's role?

"He was talking about what he believes our government should support "
You got a link to prove that, or is that what you think?  To me it says he went to a plant that the rumors had been going around that it would be closing soon.  So Obama went there to peddle his 'hope and change' to a bunch of people by saying this.

"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years."

Would he mean a gov't with him at the head or McCain?

Here is the link to the local paper talking about the rumors.  Seems odd Obama would select a plant to say that at that would be shuttered 14 months later under his administration.

Beetos, at least I got you to look something up, did you get that off the CNN fact check where is said what Ryan said was true, just instead of 12 months it was 14?

How's it splitting hairs?  The media says the plant CLOSED under Bush and it did not.  That is a fact.  Regardless of when you WANT it to clase and regardless of WHAT you wanted Obama to mean.  What Ryan said Obama said is true, and Ryan never said who it closed under.  He was simply making the observation that Obama's SUMMER of RECOVERY was a failure for many people on mainstreet.

Now if we were talking about Obama breaking his promise about cutting the deficit in half.....Here's where the AP tries to cover for Obama but gets caught and has to wiggle.  In the original story it said Obama pledged, not promised.

>>You got a link to prove that, or is that what you think?  To me it says he went to a plant that the rumors had been going around that it would be closing soon.  So Obama went there to peddle his 'hope and change' to a bunch of people by saying this.

He's a politician. No kidding. They all do the same thing. Say something vague enough to spin one way and then other side spins it the other.

>>In the original story it said Obama pledged, not promised.

Semantics. Does anyone here ever really think "My politician didn't do what they said before election? I'm shocked! He said he would. He promised!"

>>My politician didn't do what they said before election?

Has Obama performed any of his promises?

>>Has Obama performed any of his promises?

Sure. He passed Obamacare as promised. Some other things too the first 2 years while he had a democratic congress.

He's a politician. No kidding. They all do the same thing. Say something vague enough to spin one way and then other side spins it the other."

So that makes it acceptable?  He said it, Ryan nailed him on it and his followers are upset?

"My politician didn't do what they said before election? I'm shocked! He said he would. He promised!"

Of course not, but do all politicians get the media to cover for them.

I disn't give a rats ass about what Ryan said, but once the media got a hold of it and started saying Ryan was lying that the plant actuall closaed under Obama, it got me wondering what all the fuss was about.  I looked it up.   Ryan never said it was closed under Obama and he never said Obama promised to keep it open.

>> Some other things too the first 2 years while he had a democratic congress.

yeah, that's the time he was more worried about f*cking up healthcare than fixing the economy.


On this Ryan thing - Obama took a democrat generated financial mess and made it worse.  They doubled down on the housing bubble and added liberal economic policies that have failed time and time again.  This and many other companies were doomed from the time we elected a community organizer.

Here's politifact post on it.  Tell me this is true.

"Ryan said Obama broke his promise to keep a Wisconsin GM plant from closing. But we don't see evidence he explicitly made such a promise -- and more importantly, the Janesville plant shut down before he took office.

 We rate Ryan's statement False."

....how do you get the above from the below......leave Obama out of it.

 Would you say the above is a good understanding of the below?  Where does Ryan say "Obama promised to keep the plant open" or better yet WTF does when the plant shutdown have to do with anything in the statement?

Here is what he said..."A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: 'I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.' That’s what he said in 2008. Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day

>>Here is what he said..."A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: 'I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.' That’s what he said in 2008. Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day

As I said. Obama said something vague enough that he could spin into "Elect me and I will keep the plant open" Ryan said something vague enough to spin "Obama said he'd save the plant and because of him it is closed"

Spin spin spin.

From the politifact article you posted:

Ryan stirred memories of the factory on Aug. 16, 2012, attacking President Barack Obama during a campaign speech in Ohio.

"I remember President Obama visiting it when he was first running, saying he'll keep that plant open. One more broken promise," Ryan said.

This was from the stump - he took about promising to keep the plant open by the convention, but does that change Ryan's message?    He's implying the plant closed because of Obama when the reality is it closed before he even took office.

The plant closed in Dec 2008 - yes there were a few dozen left to finish up a project, but even RYAN himself considers  the Dec 2008 date as the closing of the plant - why can't you?

Obama was stating that he believed government intervention could save the auto industry.  He followed through on that.  Republicans can't let Obama succeed, so Ryan's trying to turn that success into a failure.   That's all.   It works on the sheep though:

 

This and many other companies were doomed from the time we elected a community organizer.

 

...Except that it was announced it would be closed 5 months before he was elected, but why start acknowledging reality now?

Only people I see spinning here is the media for Obama....... and well his followers.  Where did Ryan spin what Obama said?  It's really kind of funny.....ask a simple question like when did the plant close.  Most people would agree that it closed when it ceased production.  Not when did most of the people get laid off, when did it virtually close, when did the CEO first think "let's close this plant.".

AR, so when did the plant close......did it CLOSE under Bush or Obama?

With that logic berger, Solyndra still exists, so it hasn't failed.   Right?

>>AR, so when did the plant close......did it CLOSE under Bush or Obama?

Does it matter? It closed and people are out of work. If it closed after inauguration, do you think Obama was able to do some miracle to save it in a month or something? It closed because people didn't buy enough cars from GM and they bought a Kia instead. That isn't Bush or Obama fault. It's GM's fault. Make better cars!

Beetos,  I saw that line about Ryan saying that on Aug 16.....but I couldn't confirm it.  The only thing I could get was this, here.  A transcript of a speech he gave on Aug 16 but nothing was said about that plant.  If he said it, he would have been wrong, Obama is not to blame for that plant closing.

Where did Ryan say the plant closed Dec 2008.

AR.....I couldn't agree more.  I agree it's GM's fault for building shitty cars.  If it doesn't matter then why won't you tell me when it closed.  None of the facts are in dispute.....it was marked for closure Aug 2008, the GM line was shut down late Dec 2008, final product ended early April 2009.  So please, when did it close?  It seems strange that it seems to follow party lines.  If you're an Obama follower, it closed Dec 2008, other wise it ended April 2009.  I do think most non-followers blame it on GM for building crappy cars, while Team Obama blames Bush......"IT happened under Bush Damnit!".

>>With that logic berger, Solyndra still exists, so it hasn't failed.   Right?

With Obama's "logic" we'll bankroll a few more bankrupt companies and tax to death the real producers in this country.


>>It closed and people are out of work.

That's good in the community organizer's opinion.  Results in more government dependent people, which, in his mind, equates to more Democrat voters.

>>If it doesn't matter then why won't you tell me when it closed.

I honestly don't care when it closed. The half-year range in question doesn't matter. Jesus could have been elected and wouldn't have saved them at that point so it don't matter which day it actually closed on.

Did Obama lie? Did Ryan lie? Neither did or both did in the same way Obi-Wan lied to Luke about his father dying when he really became Darth Vader. Sorry to bring fictional Star Wars into this but it is just as he said in Return of the Jedi. Truths you hold are from a certain point of view and in politics it holds true if they are said vague enough. (Personally Obi-Wan lied in my opinion).

They both were vague enough so they are both truth tellers and liars depending on how you break it down or which side you look at it from.

Obama said that with government support, the factory could stay open 100 years.   By the time he was elected, it was too late for that factory, but the GM bailout shows that Obama walked the walk of what he was saying.


Ryan's not saying anything;   the plant closed, but Obama didn't say he would save it anyway so....um I don't know.

The media is claiming that Ryan lied - because Ryan is purporting that Obama let the plant close, when it was already a done deal (whether or not the doors were officially locked) before he took office.


Berger, and conservatives alike, can't accept that the media doesn't believe Ryan, and therefore conservatives are the victims again.

>>Obama said that with government support

With government support, I could join the ranks of millions of government dependents and sit on my ass all day, watch cable, and talk on my Iphone 4s.  Lots I could do with government support.



>> conservatives alike, can't accept that the media doesn't believe Ryan

If only the media would investigate and report on Obama honestly

>>With government support, I could join the ranks of millions of government dependents and sit on my ass all day, watch cable, and talk on my Iphone 4s.

I love how conservatives are so out of touch with that welfare is today. They have the image that welfare is sitting back as you describe it and the government just mails you checks every day for the rest of your life.

The current welfare system is much different than that:

Welfare is limited to 3 years in your lifetime
You have to attend resume and job classes to prepare you to work
You have to actively go on interviews and apply to jobs

I know people who are on and have been on welfare (yes 'have been' meaning they eventually get off it). You can't just sit back and collect checks doing nothing forever like in the 70's. The reform of welfare worked well and it is not the free ride it was.

>>If only the media would investigate and report on Obama honestly

They do. It's on Comedy Central, unless you have some proof that John Stewart or Steven Colbert use false facts?

"I love how conservatives are so out of touch with that welfare is today."

That's because we're at work, not sitting around smoking pot watching Comedy Central.  Can you show me a link where welfare is limited to 3 years your entire lifetime in the US?  Or was that something you got off of SouthPark?  Or how about a link you have to apply to jobs to get WIC in the US.  Oh maybe that was another fact gleaned from CC.

I'm at work and I never smoked pot but choose to be educated on the things I discuss. Sorry if it is easier for you to just stick with the stereotypes instead of staying current. I guess it is not a requirement if you just blindly vote with your chosen party. The issues don't really matter then.

Here is a quick link I found for proof:

Cash Assistance : http://www.crawfordcountyjfs.org/cash-assistance.html

If you qualify, OWF will help you get job training, find employment and receive some benefits as long as you are working toward independently supporting yourself and your family.

It is important to note that OWF cash benefits are limited to thirty-six (36) months in a lifetime and do not have to be consecutive. OWF is a temporary tool to help you become independent.

Ohio’s Disability Financial Assistance (DFA) program is designed to give some financial support to disabiled individuals with little or no income while they wait for disability income from (Social Security, SSI, Worker’s Compensation, etc...) to be approved. This program also comes with medicaid.

>> Or how about a link you have to apply to jobs to get WIC in the US

WIC is something only for children, and only for specific foods that meet certain nutrition requirements.

>>Oh maybe that was another fact gleaned from CC.

We have all repeatedly disproved facts from Fox, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, etc etc. I have yet to see one fact presented by John Stewart or Steven Colbert disproved. Let me know if you find one.

On welfare you can get a "free" cell phone.

On welfare, you can spend your money at tiddee bars.

On welfare, you can use the money to post bail.

On welfare, you can live in a $1.2 million dollar house.

On welfare, you can buy smokes.

On welfare, you can be a druggie.

On welfare, you can take a cruise.

On welfare, you can get free cars.

On welfare, you can... scrape the bottom of the barrel for quirky stories and have fraud, just like every other program.

Do you think that this is the majority of the people on welfare? This is the newsworthy articles obviously. And newsworthy for their outrageousness and rarity compared to the actual use of welfare.

Sorry you wasted so much time preparing a post to not prove a point. I can do the same thing to show fraud and terrible acts by police and the military, but it doesn't mean I don't support them and know those cases are rare and the exception as opposed to the norm.

What would politics be without stereotypes and focusing on rare extremes though?

Oh yea, sensible.

You didn't say cash Assistance, you said: Welfare is limited to 3 years in your lifetime Which is WRONG.  And WTF does crawford County have to do with anything,  What is OWF cash????? Oh, it must stand for Obama Welfare Funds.

You didn't say except for children, you said: You have to actively go on interviews and apply to jobs.  Which is WRONG.  (a side note.  the money from WIC is not given to the children but to the parents.).


So from what you posted, it looks like in Crawford County in Ohio, you have 3 years to get cash for the transition to lifelong disability.
"Ohio’s Disability Financial Assistance (DFA) program is designed to give some financial support to disabiled individuals with little or no income while they wait for disability "

See, your last line is lame.  All they do is twist the facts to be funny.  Sure I can show you facts that present that are not true but then you'll just claim that's the punchline.

If you are talking about all aid in every form such as medicaid, food stamps, WIC, and medicare then yes you are right. If you are talking about cash assistance, then my points are right.

Crawford county was the first link I found with the info.

OWF stands for Ohio Works First which is the current name of the cash assistance program, since it centers around work.

And if someone is not disabled, they work.

>>All they do is twist the facts to be funny.

But they use facts. Every other network I mentioned used flat out lies.

>>Sure I can show you facts that present that are not true...

Go ahead and find one.

"I do have some sad news to report. Bjork could not be here. She was trying on her Oscars dress and Dick Cheney shot her." --Jon Stewart

Did He?

"Inspiring developments -- Democracy is on the march in the Middle East. Yesterday, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians hit the polls for the first time of parliamentary elections in ten years. Which democratically elected party walked away victorious? Oh, it's Hamas! Yes, Hamas the militant Islamic group that is very anti-American and calls for the destruction of Israel, and wants a theocracy in Palestine. Though, on the plus side, they have returned all the money given to them by Jack Abramoff." --Jon Stewart

Was the money returned?

"All in all, 16 Texas oil refineries remain shut down after the storms. Analysts say it's the worst thing to happen to the Texas oil industry since George W. Bush worked in it." --Jon Stewart

Please prove which analysts said this

The list goes on..........why am I wasting my time on this?  :)

"Last week, CIA head Porter Goss said, 'The jobs I'm being asked to do... are too much for this mortal. I'm a little amazed at the workload.' He continued, 'I guess I always thought the job of overseeing American intelligence would be more Maytag Repairman-y.'" --Jon Stewart

Did Porter Goss say this?  Please provide a link

"Last week North Korea publicly admitted for the first time it has nuclear weapons. The Bush administration has so far shown very little concern, as the North Korean missiles are believed only capable of reaching the Blue States." --Jon Stewart on North Korea's nuclear weapons program

Can't come up with any facts the missles could only reach blue states.  Sounds like BS, maybe funny but not a fact.  :)

"In what will have to pass as the convention's biggest surprise, Ron Reagan Jr., son of the recently sainted Republican president, will address the convention on the subject of stem cell research. The Republican attack machine has already countered by announcing their convention's keynote address will be delivered by Roger Clinton on the subject of, 'I Thought You Said There'd Be Girls Here."' --Jon Stewart

I don't remeber Roger Clinton being at the RNC?  Facts?

Very good points. Note however that in each joke, there is an accurate fact. That does still hold true. You were correct in that they present their jokes as false facts. But you have to admit they present their reported facts accurately, something we have all found flaws with in every other network.

I'm not saying that Comedy Central is the best source for all news. But honestly knowing what the hell is going on when they are talking politics and that it is really the truth is pretty convenient when you watch it. I don't get that feeling on any other network. It does take a sense of being able to pull a joke out of the report.

You would probably enjoy the Colbert Report better. He pretends to be a Republican at least. But it is along the same lines as Archie Bunker. The ridiculousness of what he says is to prove the point of the other side.

Colbert:

 Now we all know that Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.

Really, I never knew this to be a fact.

 The Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis were both notorious for allowing people to express unpopular views in an open and free forum.


 Sure they may be old and sick, but as Jesus said, "Walk it off."

Give it up Russo,  conservatives don't do comedy.   The latest RNC notwithstanding.

>>Give it up Russo,  conservatives don't do comedy.

Yeah, I prefer to NOT get my news from the comedy channel.

>>Yeah, I prefer to NOT get my news from the comedy channel.

Surprisingly so close minded. And you normally are so open minded about everything Eric.  :)

AR, I thought most of them were funny....ok well some.  Here's my problem with it.  I think both of these guys are funny, but I also pay attention.  Like this thread......most people who watch these shows kick back on the couch, get high and laugh their ass off, but are too lazy to look for the truth.  Like when the plant closed down.  It's not that clear cut....in fact I think I may be the only one to say it was after Obama took office and I have facts to back it up.  The last trucks rolled off the line in April 2009.  Production does not continue at a plant that is closed.  But it really makes no difference either way.

beetos, come on man, you have to admit Clint was F'N funny......I was rolling on the floor.  The empty chair part.   That was some funny shit.

Understood and agree bergertime. Too many people cannot pick out the jokes and will think that the missiles can only reach blue states.

The same problem though holds true for those watching the other networks as well. Too many just accept the mindless ranting that comes from FoxNews or MSNBC as truth and if they only watch one of them, they are not well informed.

>> Too many just accept the mindless ranting that comes from FoxNews or MSNBC as truth and if they only watch one of them, they are not well informed.

Yep, nothing like getting the "real" news from the COMEDY channel.

>>beetos, come on man, you have to admit Clint was F'N funny......I was rolling on the floor.  The empty chair part.   That was some funny shit.

It was funny but in the wrong way. Clint has been a joke all week because of how lost he was during that rambling.

He was like the drunk best man at a wedding giving the toast going through all the grooms old ex-girlfriends. Everyone kind of had to laugh like it was OK, but it was pretty sad to watch.

>>Yep, nothing like getting the "real" news from the COMEDY channel.

If you are smart enough...yes.

in fact I think I may be the only one to say it was after Obama took office

You and all the other right wingnuts who grasp at threads to be technically correct while everyone else is having a discussion about what the discussion is really about:  Paul Ryan attempting to blame Obama for a plant that had already failed before he took office.

Perhaps you could enlighten the employees of the Jamesville plant as to when the plant actually closed and they were laid off:




Local Headlines - Jamesville plant closes

>>If you are smart enough...yes.

I imagine if I got my news from the comedy channel that I too would hate wealth producers, shit on police cars, hate the Constitution, and be an adult before I was proud of my country.

You're far too influenced by television - maybe you should turn it off?   Or at least change the channel from Fox News.    But thanks for your admission - it explains a lot of things.

>>I imagine if I got my news from the comedy channel that I too would hate wealth producers, shit on police cars, hate the Constitution, and be an adult before I was proud of my country.

Have I ever done any of these things or said anything to lead you to believe this was my stance?

>>Have I ever done any of these things or said anything to lead you to believe this was my stance?

I believe that's the Democrat platform, if you read the fine print.  I guess you'll also need to throw in tax funded baby killing as well.


>>You're far too influenced by television - maybe you should turn it off?

I might miss out on the tax funded/stimulus commercials on MSNBC,

AR, sour grapes, that's Clint.  I thought it was a riot.  I loved the part where he was acting like Obama was in the chair telling him to go screw himself.  It's one of those things that gets funnier the more you watch it.  Like Kung Pow.  

Beetos, that says last vehicle off the line.......was that true?  And no the people who started the whole "blame bush, it closed under bush"  was the media right after the speech.  Not that the date it closed makes any difference, it was an attack on Obama's failed Summer of Recovery.  Think the Summer of Recovery was a success?  Even Obama gives himself an incomplete of his handling of the economy......not pass or fail, but an F'N incomplete.  Last time I checked an incomplete at the end of the term was considered FAILING.

Interviewer: Sir How were you as President?

Obama:  Well lets, I got to spend a lot of money and play a lot of golfer, but overall I guess I would give myself an in F'N complete.  

Really who does this.  I go to my boss and he asks how I handled my duties over the last year and I say "Well boss man, I'ld really have to give myself an incomplete.".

He'd do the right thing....call me a moron and fire me.  What did Clint say?  Gotta let 'em go.

>>Are you aware Clint Eastwood is Pro-Choice, believes that global warming is caused by humans, and believes in marriage equality?

And yet he still rejects Obama...what does that say?

>>And yet he still rejects Obama...what does that say?

It says he's old.

The recession started in 2008, got into it's worst in 2009, when was the summer of recovery? 2010? 2011?   Either way it was long after the plant had closed.  

So you have Obama as a candidate talking about how Bush's policies were going to lead to plants like that one closing, while his policies would help them remain open.   This is in early 2008.   Turns out Obama was right on both counts.  

Ryan would have you believe that Obama failed because a plant that he accurately  warned might be closed under the current Presidents policies?  

And you're beef is that the plant still had 50 people working there for another 4 months, so therefore what - it's Obama's fault?  Ryan wasn't being misleading?   What ?


The only thing good about Clint's "performance" is that it epitomizes the Republican campaign:  They're running against an Obama that doesn't exist, one they just made up.

>>It says he's old

Then explain this...

DNC 2012: Obama’s crowd downsized by 50K

Not enough young people?

>>They're running against an Obama that doesn't exist, one they just made up.

Obama is running as a candidate that doesn't exist.  Only in La La Land do we have low deficits, low unemployment, low gas prices, and high approval ratings.

The problem is La La Land is losing a lot of residents.  They're all moving to Realtyville.

Dems move the speech inside due to potential thunderstorms.

Republicans say it is because it is smaller venue.

Spin spin spin.

Yawn.

"The problem is La La Land is losing a lot of residents.  They're all moving to Realtyville. "

Are you starting to get lonely?

>>Dems move the speech inside due to potential thunderstorms.

Maybe they didn't want the outside world to hear their boos after inserting "God" back in their platform.


Democrat Party = Party of Darkness




PS--zero % chance of rain at the time of Obama's speech tonight.
http://www.weather.com/weather/hourbyhour/graph/Charlotte+NC+USNC0121:1:US?pagenum=2&nextbeginIndex=6

>>PS--zero % chance of rain at the time of Obama's speech tonight.

There wasn't even standing room in the convention when Clinton spoke last night.

Can you imagine if during the speech there was a sudden downpour and the chaos. Smart to move it inside if there was any chance of that happening, which it was forecasted as such when the decision was made.

Spin all you want, the place will be packed.

The Associated Press: 1st night of DNC bests RNC in TV ratings race : http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jbzzpDYTjegBl0g0kzV71Iw1zEOg?docId=faca595ad3084e83a6f2afd890e5a721

And that is just counting the out-of-date Nielsen ratings. Online was most likely DNC favored as well.

Heard a report about this on Fox News this morning - first they said the convention was being moved because of the weather, then they added that they heard from a "campaign insider" that the real reason was that they were worried about the lack of attendance.   THEN, they went on about how disappointing it was to the 65,000 who would no longer be able to attend.

How can it be that there were both not enough people to attend, and 65,000 people who are disappointed that they won't be able to attend?

What did they do next?   They brought in the weather girl to make ELW's point that weather isn't the issue, except she went off script and agreed that it was a wise decision to move the campaign indoors because of the weather.


Another nontroversy like the language of the platform not mentioning God.  It's not like they were saying God didn't exist or anything bad.  No, they merely removed an adjective.


These are the big stories out of the DNC from right wing news outlets like Fox.   They don't discuss the substance of speeches by Clinton and Warren.   They don't discuss issues.   They make controversies out of nothing.  

This is a problem with politics today - we've replaced journalism with reality shows.

>>This is a problem with politics today - we've replaced journalism with reality shows.

Actually there is a benefit to politics of today that we didn't have in years past nearly as much.

Fact checking. Sites like www.factcheck.org and www.politifact.com keep the politicians honest, or at least call them out on their lies for everyone to see. This was not readily available to the people in earlier elections 20 years ago.

Of course when the Romney campaign claims they wont let fact-checkers dictate their campaign, ,it just sounds like "we are going to lie anyway"

Clinton last night through out a lot of facts and figures. According to both sites he was mostly accurate:

PolitiFact | Bill Clinton sets the stage for President Obama : http://www.politifact.com/georgia/article/2012/sep/06/bill-clinton-sets-stage-president-obama/

FactCheck.org : Our Clinton Nightmare : http://factcheck.org/2012/09/our-clinton-nightmare/

Interesting.

>>How can it be that there were both not enough people to attend, and 65,000 people who are disappointed that they won't be able to attend?

They had to bus people in to TRY fill the stadium.  These idiots were actually giving out FREE (yes, free) tickets to encourage attendance.

No normal American wants to sit there and hear God and Israel booed, some chick demand tax payers fund her sex life,  how you're evil if you're successful, and a whole host of other lies that come out of Democrats.

The bottom line is that the Democrat party is toast.  Obama has a record now and the American people don't like it.



>>we've replaced journalism with reality shows.

Says the man who gets his news from the Comedy channel.

Fact checking. Sites like www.factcheck.org and www.politifact.com keep the politicians honest, or at least call them out on their lies for everyone to see. This was not readily available to the people in earlier elections 20 years ago.

Yes - this used to be the job of journalists who would then challenge those "facts" in interviews with the candidates and/or their representatives.   That kind of thing is rare these days, although Ryan's lies were so egregious that we actually saw some of that from the media.

>>we've replaced journalism with reality shows.

Says the man who gets his news from the Comedy channel.

That's exactly why.   The "reporters" on the comedy channel actually ask real questions, and don't take evasion for an answer.   This is why few Republicans dare to go on these shows.

Thanks

>>They had to bus people in to TRY fill the stadium.

Obama appeals to a lower-income audience of church goers as a large part of his voters. They would want to see him since he was in their area for this major event. The church organized a bus to assist in getting people there. This is a bad thing how?

>>These idiots were actually giving out FREE (yes, free) tickets to encourage attendance.

A promotion? The nerve of these idiots!

>>The bottom line is that the Democrat party is toast.

Really? Did you miss my post above that the DNC got higher Nielsen ratings than the RNC? If you step outside of your little right-wing only news bubble you like to live in and try to get both sides to a story you can get a bit more realistic perspective.

>>Says the man who gets his news from the Comedy channel.

That was me, remember? You would do good to widen your news sources a bit as well.

>>Obama appeals to a lower-income audience of church goers as a large part of his voters.

The party of no God???


>>Really? Did you miss my post above that the DNC got higher Nielsen ratings than the RNC?

He got dogged by the NFL



>>That was me, remember? You would do good to widen your news sources a bit as well.

Should I go to the Food Channel for comedy then?

"Did you miss my post above that the DNC got higher Nielsen ratings than the RNC"

That's cause most of the liberals watching were too stoned to find the remote or they were hoping Bill would start playing the sax and they could see an early preview of Obama's dance steps before his next role on Dancing with the Stars.  :)  See now that's funny in the Jon Stewart kind of way.  I took a couple of facts.....and twisted them.......well no, those are pretty much facts, no twisting there.

>>The party of no God???

They were from a church.

>>He got dogged by the NFL

What?

>>Should I go to the Food Channel for comedy then?

If they have a comedy show. On Comedy central they have a news show. Satire, but still a news based show with more accurate facts than most others.

>>That's cause most of the liberals watching were too stoned to find the remote or they were hoping Bill would start playing the sax and they could see an early preview of Obama's dance steps before his next role on Dancing with the Stars.  :)  See now that's funny in the Jon Stewart kind of way.  I took a couple of facts.....and twisted them.......well no, those are pretty much facts, no twisting there.

I give you facts and you respond with jokes. Do you think this helps your point at all? Or is this just a last ditch effort of someone who is on the losing end of a discussion?

In the conservative mind, whoever gets the best ratings is right.   So when you adeptly pointed out that the DNC had better ratings than the RNC, they resorted to a common tactic of moving the goal posts:

DNC > RNC ?   we can't have that!

NFL > DNC - there, now we're still "Winning! (ala Mr. Sheen)"

"I give you facts and you respond with jokes."

Sorry given the fact that:

"Give it up Russo,  conservatives don't do comedy"

You really can't see Clinton whipping out the old sax and Obama flashing that big smile and breaking into a foxtrot?  SNL should do that, it would be a riot.  Anyway, I closed the question once it got to the stage of my convention is bigger than your convention.  I meant no harm.  :)

At this point per the sign that beetos posted "Last truck off the Janesville line"  just isn't rue that didn't happen for a few more months, no matter how much he wants to believe that.  I guess he must have fallen for the busg Misson Accomplised sign too.

No worries bergertime. It's a good joke, but I probably would have appreciate it more with a response to the fact first. Still no problem.

About the exact timing of the plant though. It's still splitting hairs and means nothing when the actual doors closed.

At this point per the sign that beetos posted "Last truck off the Janesville line"  just isn't rue that didn't happen for a few more months, no matter how much he wants to believe that.  I guess he must have fallen for the busg Misson Accomplised sign too.

Of course, to the people of Jamesville who worked at the plant and were laid off that day, it was true.

And the difference in your analogies is that after that day in Jamesville, about 2% of employees were still there to finish minor tasks.   After the "mission accomplished" fiasco, came the surge...

No they were there to build trucks?  Beetos you said minor task and you know that's not true.  They were there to build trucks till April.

I agree, it doesn't matter,  but why is it so important to have the plant close under bush?

Again,  I define a closed plant as one that production has ended, stooped, they are no longer producing a product.  How do u define a closed plant?

>>They were from a church.

Rev Jeremiah Wright's?


>>Of course, to the people of Jamesville who worked at the plant and were laid off that day

Is that the day they went on unemployment and became loyal Obama voters?

No they were there to build trucks?  Beetos you said minor task and you know that's not true.  They were there to build trucks till April.

I agree, it doesn't matter,  but why is it so important to have the plant close under bush?

Again,  I define a closed plant as one that production has ended, stooped, they are no longer producing a product.  How do u define a closed plant?

This dead horse just won't quit.

Ryan made the argument that Obama promised to keep the plant open.   He then modified that argument to be "Obama said with gov't help the plant would stay open, but it didn't last a year".

The decision to close the plant was made in July of '08.     This was due the the economic reality under the Bush administration.  

You're bending over backwards to prove Ryan was accurate; he wasn't.  Not by any reasonable measure.   It's BS, and he's been called on it.  

If you want to say that a skeleton crew of 50, down from 2700, for an additional 4 months means that the plant closed under Obama so Ryan was right, then he's still wrong because by the same measure it lasted longer than a year.

IT_crowd was right!

"This was due the the economic reality under the Bush administration."  

Oh so this IS the reason, it is Bush's fault, not the fact GM builds crappy cars and demand for these type of vehicles had fallen off.

Again, beetos a very simple question.......How do you define when a plant is closed?  When production stops, when production is reduced, when people are layed off, or some other criteria?  Please tell me what criteria you use to say that the plant closed under Bush.

Off Obama's website

GM Janesville Halted Production In December 2008, When President Bush Was In Office.

Obama made no such promise and the plant halted production in December 2008, when President George W. Bush was in office.

“Left Out…The Detail That The Plant Stopped Production In December 2008, Before Obama Took Office.”

That factory closed BEFORE President Obama took office.

All off the same same page.....not only does it say the plant closed under Bush but that production stopped.  Tell a lie enough........Please anyone, please tell me when production stopped?  This is straight from barakobama.com......check it out.  PRODUCTION STOPPED.  NOT!

So who's lying?  When did Ryan say the plant closed?  When did he say production stopped?  He never did on either one.  

Now Obama, pull up his webpage, it says the plant closed in dec 2008 under Bush, which we can argue on all day, but he also makes the bold statement production stopped in Dec 2008.  Anyone want to side with that one?  I think that horse may be dead.  Liar Liar pants on fire, production did not end Dec 2008.

Again why is it so important that even the president would lie about the date production stopped at the plant.......blame Bush.

>>IT_crowd was right!

There's like 5 of us in the political area most of the time.  If he's gonna hang around, he's gotta take off the skirt.

Ok berger - so the plant "completely" closed in 2009, but was already obviously going to cease production and had been written off by GM in 2008.   Happy?


That still doesn't make Ryan any less of a liar.

First, he said Obama "PROMISED" to keep the plant open during a speech on the campaign trail.   That happened in Feb 2008.   Ryan then went on to say "That plant didn't last a year."  

To everyone else in the world, the plant closed in Dec. 2008.   But you want to be a stickler so you can prove Ryan is right.   WELL HE'S STILL NOT!   Because Feb 2008 to April 2009 IS MORE THAN A YEAR!

If you want to be a stickler for technical details in this debate, please do so consistently.

Blame GM if you want, blame the economy, whatever, but blaming Obama for the Jamesville plant closing is total BULLSHIT - and that's what's really at the center of the debate.

Thank u beetos.  And as I've said before Obama had nothing to do with the plant closing.  He may have failed on believing it could have stayed open another 100 years.

As far as the less than a year and it was 14 months, he got his facts wrong, just like when Obama said he went to all 57 states.  Was Obama lying?  No he just didn't understand there's only 50.

What about Obama making the statement the plant stopped production dec 2008.  That's a lie,  that is meant to deceive.

Oh and the statement when Ryan said Obama promised to save the plant?  Source,  I can find several references to it,  all attacking Ryan, it seems to have been said on aug 16, but he gave a commencment speech at Miami u.  I watched that speech on line,  he didn't say it then.  At this point I cannot confirm he said it.  I think it's bs, but if he did say it as I've said before, he would be wrong.

'Honey Boo Boo' and Bill Clinton's DNC Speech Tie in Ratings

LOL!!

Guess we know what conservatives were watching instead...


So berger, what's the point?   What was Ryan trying to say about the plant and Obama?

I took it as an attack on obamas hope and change theme that won the election and on the stimulus. I watched the speech on YouTube,  I'm sure a lot of people left it with the feeling of "hey this Obama might be the real deal,  with some govt support this factory might get retooled and stay open another hundred years.".  Not a bad idea.  To me Ryan was pointing out there's a big difference lofty ideas and actual results.  Ryan wasn't some much attacking Obama rather he was trying to promote the disillusion so many people have that voted for Obama.

Hey I didn't vote for Obama, but I had hopes he could deliver on the things he was saying.  I love the idea of no gitmo, but I understand why we have it.  I use healthcare, I have three kids, of course I want it better.  You look at the healthcare bill and like most of my liberal friends say "at least he did something.". I really believe he did the wrong thing and its not cause the repubs say it.

Anyway if it doesn't matter was does Obama have the date 10 on web page as under bush?

That's all fine and good except....


Obama did exactly what he said on the campaign trail - government got involved in the auto industry and it kept many plants open.  Maybe they'll even be open for 100 years?    

Either your assessment of Ryan's motive or intention is wrong, or Ryan was being intentionally misleading (aka lying).

Biden on now....

I'm going to be in and out from the TV.  Can someone let me know when the American flag burning starts, when they start saying "God D*mn America", praising the Cuban healthcare system, and all the other Democrat talking points?

With Joe Biden, just might light up and burn a cross.

96K jobs added, 368,000 dropped out of the workforce.


Can I get a chant of "4 more years" going?

It's cute how you think the majority of people understand that 96K jobs are not enough or that any of it is bad. To them it just sounds like more jobs.

People vote on feeling, not issues. I've said for months Obama has this election in the bag already. The RNC and DNC proved that.

The base of each party likes their candidate. The majority of Independents like Obama. That's all that matters for him to win.

I'm looking forward to the debates and the next 60 days of talking points.

>>People vote on feeling, not issues.


How do you think those 368K people that left the workforce feel?

>>How do you think those 368K people that left the workforce feel?

Like Congress sucks and it's all their fault.

Also where did they go? If they retired then I'm sure they are enjoying their free time with their grandkids maybe. Maybe they won the lottery and are enjoying their new money. Do you think they just decided to stop paying their mortgage/rent or eat and give up work and live in a cardboard box?

What is that term "left the workforce" supposed to signify to the conservatives that keep throwing it out there?

>>What is that term "left the workforce" supposed to signify to the conservatives that keep throwing it out there?

Means people gave up trying finding work in the community organizer's economy.

After a speech even liberals said was empty, there's little to no chance the American people put Jimmy Carter on roids back in office.

Anyone care to explain to me why Obama's own website states in the first few paragraphs that the plant closed under bush 5 times, and production stopped under Bush 6 times, and this was just the first few paragraphs.  

Yea, right when production stopped/closed doesn't matter.  Why would Obama lie?  Who here would argue that:

GM Janesville Halted Production In December 2008, When President Bush Was In Office.

The Plant Halted Production In December 2008, When President George W. Bush Was In Office

The Detail That The Plant Stopped Production In December 2008, Before Obama Took Office.

Come on beetos, AR, defend these.  They are right there on Obama's website.  Are these true statements?  Sure looks to me like the date matters to Obama, so much so he's willing to lie about it and try and blame Bush.  

Obama says Bush 5 times in the first 4 paragraphs.

>>Come on beetos, AR, defend these.

Because it stopped in 2008? I honestly have no idea about this plant though so don't hold me to that. I'm more interested in this question which I can't seem to get an answer on:

What actually happens to these hundreds of thousands that "leave the workforce"? Do they stop eating? Do they choose to never live in a house/apt again?

>>Means people gave up trying finding work in the community organizer's economy.

I got that point. But in reality though, what do they do? These are adults we are talking about, not kids. What do you think they are doing? A person can't just say "Well I'm not going to work anymore."

(Before you start with they are living off the system and stuff I mean long term.)

AR, that is a good question.  I know people who have left the workforce, they either have enough savings and the only job they can find is Fast food, do they are content to just wait until the job market gets better.  But how do you know how many have left.....is there a form you fill out to leave?  But I do know several people who have left the workforce, they have just hunkered down and are going to weather the storm.  

Come on AR.....because it stopped in 2008?  You have no idea?  You guys can attack Ryan for lying but when it comes down to it, it's Obama......it's on his website.  Production stopped April 2009 so again the below line is not true.

The Plant Halted Production In December 2008, When President George W. Bush Was In Office

Straight off Obama's website.  Again if the date doesn't matter, and the only one saying a date is Obama, why does he keep bringing it up.  Dems logic.  The date doesn't matter, but if it did then lest's lie and say productions stopped under Bush.

>>What do you think they are doing? A person can't just say "Well I'm not going to work anymore."

Here's what they do...

1.  People start collecting disability and unemployment
The government is letting people double dip into jobless and disability benefits, costing taxpayers $850 million

2.  Or you just claim you're "disabled"
8,753,935: Workers on Disability Set Another Record in July; Exceed Population of 39 States

So these hundreds of thousands that are proclaimed are supposedly living off their savings? I thought the economy sucked and everyone was living paycheck to paycheck. Now they have tens of thousands in savings? Very contradictory. I would think that is a small percentage that are actually able to do that. It's just a nice term Republicans like to throw out to try to make the Economy look worse. I never heard the term until this election when the economy is improving but the opponent wants to make it look worse for the incumbent.


Again, the factory was there to build trucks and roll full completed products off the line. That ended in 2008. What's the difference what other crap was going on? Obama can claim 2008 and with the remaining crap the Republicans can claim 2009. Who cares? The plant died around then and I'm pretty sure the couple of months any new president was in office wasn't going to change that.

>>Here's what they do...

THE MAJORITY!

Yes there will always be fraud and there will always be those that milk the system. That is not the majority in any system...ever. The majority in a system use it the easiest way, which is usually the normal way. Don't tell me hundreds of thousands of people are suddenly turning to fraud. "left the workforce" is a made up term without meaning.

>>Dems logic.

oxymoron


>>I never heard the term until this election when the economy is improving

By what measure is the economy improving?


>>So these hundreds of thousands that are proclaimed are supposedly living off their savings?

Some 15% of U.S. Uses Food Stamps (this is months outdated too)


Listen, if you like a shitty economy, high deficits, radicals in the white house, Iran with a nuclear weapon, tax funded baby killing, tax funded birth control...then Obama is your man.

So these hundreds of thousands that are proclaimed are supposedly living off their savings?

Ummm, no.  Some are, some move home, not just young people, some move in with friends, some get a group together get high and poop on police cars otherwise known as OWS while surfing the internet with their $5000 macbooks.

There's a good chance there is a reason you didn't hear the term before, because it wasn't happening until Obama got in office.

I keep beating the dead horse, cause it was the original question.  

Again, the factory was there to build trucks and roll full completed products off the line. That ended in 2008.

Should I post links again.  Even beetos admited production ended april 2009 under Obama (again for the slows ones, Obama had nothing to do with it and could not have prevented it, but with gov't support the have been open another 100 years).  You just said production ended in 2008.  Why can't you admit production endded in 2009 under Obama?  Don't deflect the question.  Answer the question, do you stand by your statement above that production ended in 2008 under Bush, with all the facts presented in this thread?

>>Some 15% of U.S. Uses Food Stamps

I don't like that this number is so high either. This however does not cover all costs of life. Most on food stamps also work. So they haven't "left the workforce".

shitty economy - better than when he got it
high deficits - like that matters anymore - more debt than money in the world - print more
radicals in the white house - radicals on left compared to radicals on right - same thing
Iran with a nuclear weapon - lets have another war instead and still accomplish nothing
tax funded baby killing - sorry, I believe in choice on this one
tax funded birth control - agree this is stupid

>>then Obama is your man.

Not decided that he is yet. I just think he has more improvements for the country than Romney does in some areas. Other areas Romney would do better. Still weighing them out. I will be watching issues over next couple of months and the debates carefully. Also the debates should be wildly entertaining.

left the workforce

Govt Website

Persons marginally attached to the labor force are those who currently are neither working nor looking for work but indicate that they want and are available for a job.

This would be the defination of someone who has left the workforce per Bereau of Labor website.

>>Ummm, no.  Some are, some move home, not just young people, some move in with friends, some get a group together get high and poop on police cars otherwise known as OWS while surfing the internet with their $5000 macbooks.

There's always been people moving home and with friends. The high and poop on police cars line again? That's the majority you think or like to talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel? I was no fan of OWS either but it wasn't the orgyfest of drugs and crime you all make it out to be.

>>Persons marginally attached to the labor force are those who currently are neither working nor looking for work but indicate that they want and are available for a job.

Thanks for the official definition. Is this subsection new? Is there data for their % from 3 or 4 or 6 years ago? Has that number improved since then?

>>high deficits - like that matters anymore -

See Greece and tell me deficits/debt don't matter.  We're on that path.



>>I don't like that this number is so high either.

Yet you lean to vote for the food stamp in chief.



>>I just think he has more improvements for the country than Romney

What is your definition of improvement?  (maybe if your goal is to take down the country)



>>I will be watching issues over next couple of months and the debates carefully

Debates are for independents, people who don't keep up.  If Romney's smart, he doesn't use the Mccain playbook and instead takes it hard to him.



>>Is there data for their % from 3 or 4 or 6 years ago?

Lowest workforce participation rate since September 1981

The national unemployment rate dropped to 8.1 per cent, down from 8.2 per cent, but this was only because so many people gave up looking for work.

>>See Greece and tell me deficits/debt don't matter.  We're on that path.

The Euro was a big part of their problem.

>>Yet you lean to vote for the food stamp in chief.

Because that is really his number one goal and what he should be measured on only.

>> (maybe if your goal is to take down the country)

OMG. You really believe still he WANTS to destroy the country? It's just a different direction than you want which he thinks improves the country.

>>Debates are for independents, people who don't keep up.

Unfortunately that is a lot of Independents. I hope you believe that does not describe me from our conversations over the years here. Also unfortunately those independents who "don't keep up" are the ones who decide the election every time. That's why Romney will lose.

>> If Romney's smart, he doesn't use the Mccain playbook and instead takes it hard to him.

I do as well. Both ways I want hard questions asked.

>>Lowest workforce participation rate since September 1981

From the same government site would be accurate info.

Here

No This is not new.A little more info, the graph isn't as good.  

Katharine Abraham was in cahrge of BLS and appointed by Clinton.  A lot of people at the time felt like it was a political move to get that group out of the unemployed and thus make the unemployment numbers look better.  Guess it worked.

Anthony, I love you, man, but you need to read the writing on the wall.  You can't simply dismiss everything as an isolated incident.  Eventually you have to see there's a pattern.

So it is not new, but without prior numbers it really is hard to discern if there is a positive or negative trend here. I'm sure all Republicans will dwell on this since it is a bigger number but that number very well might be lower than it was in 2008 or 2004.

The number of Americans whom the U.S. Department of Labor counted as “not in the civilian labor force” in August hit a record high of 88,921,000.

SOURCE



.

AR, did you even look at my graphs?  They go back to 1994, when Abraham changed the grouping to make Clinton look better.  So yes, you can see the trend from 1994 -2012.  

I think it's pretty clear as the red line drops the blue line goes up.  Dude you're smarter than that.  Of course you still hold dear that the plant stopped production under Bush.

>>Anthony, I love you, man

Bro-hug time!

>>but you need to read the writing on the wall.  You can't simply dismiss everything as an isolated incident.  Eventually you have to see there's a pattern.

It's all perspective man. You don't think you are looking at Obama through mud-covered glasses and beetos is looking through rosey colored ones (just using you as example beetos since such an active open liberal here)? At least own that man. I try to keep clear lenses and think for myself based on information I can get from 'hopefully' reputable sources.

Everyone on this thread is intelligent, knowledgeable, and wants what is best for this country. The debates come down to perspective, goals, and what's more important to that person. I tend to fall in the middle but usually argue on the side of Obama as he is usually getting slammed on most often here. In my home I argue on the side of Romney usually as my wife is a strong Obama supporter as are my daughters. (Or at least I do until I get 'the look' from the wife and am wise enough to leave it at that.)

We all have the same goal in the end of a better country. It's just that our vision of what that country should be like is different. Also our ideas on how to get there.

I will give you that you are the most moderate person within this forum.


>>until I get 'the look' from the wife and am wise enough to leave it at that.

Very wise

>>I will give you that you are the most moderate person within this forum.

You can get there man. Open your mind to think for yourself a bit more. I don't think it could hurt anyone here.

bergertime. I only see one graph on that page and only to 2009. that doesn't show if there is improvement in this 'left the workforce' number like the original link did. That would be valuable info as to what Obama might have accomplished or failed on.

Am I missing something there?

I did find this and got hopeful but cannot find a corresponding % for 2009 in the accompanying PDF.

Ranks of Discouraged Workers and Others Marginally Attached to the Labor Force Rise During Recession, Issues in Labor Statistics : http://www.bls.gov/opub/ils/ils74abs.htm

Berger, if you want any more replies to your "the plant closed under Obama" screed, just scroll up.

Russo - I find your disdain for the American voter unsettling.    How can this be the greatest country on earth if it's comprised of idiots?

As far as rosy vs. mud glasses - I don't think so.    I think there's a lot of valid criticism that can be leveled against Obama, but the political climate is such that Republicans paint such an unrealistic picture of Democrats and their conservative followers pick up the attack that reasonable discourse is a thing of the past.   Look at posts from ELW who epitomizes that sentiment.  

You could argue that Obama spends too much, but not when the facts are obliterated by this "$6 trillion added" meme.   How much of that was interest on the existing debt?  How much of that is because he actually put the wars on the books?  How much of that is the result of Bush and Clinton era tax cuts?   How much of that is from the bank bailout?

Obama makes the point that we need to work together, that we're all connected, and Republicans spin that as anti-small business?

What about the whole birther - Kenyan-Muslim-Socialist-Marxist theme?   He's a terrorist?  Really?   So he's just killing all the real terrorists as a cover-up?  

"We're not going to let the fact checkers dictate our campaign!"

The first link went to 2012, the second only went to 2009.  

The first link:  goes to 2012, it show the published unemployment rate went down (the red line) but real unemplyment went up (the blue line).  So although unemployment went down according to the red line true unemployment went up according to the blue line, as defined by clinton in 1994 per my second link.  

The point is, as we sit around and cheer that unemployment is going down, true unemployment is going up. The only reason the red line is going down, is because the blue line is going up.  And no this is not because of repubs or election year crap, this was because Clinton had the head of the Department of Labor redefine how it was calculated in 1994.  Make sense?

>>Obama makes the point that we need to work together

Like with Obamacare?  (Republicans were not even allowed to participate)



>>You could argue that Obama spends too much

You think?


>>He's a terrorist?

He's just buddies with domestic terrorists.


>>Kenyan

Family ties



>>Muslim

Obama: "My Muslim Faith"  (VIDEO)



>>Socialist-Marxis

Even Hugo Chavez hasn't taken over more private businesses than Obama has




>>So he's just killing all the real terrorists as a cover-up?  

Bush is still waiting on the thank you letter for the intelligence.  All Obama did was use the information gathered from interrogations from the Bush administration.

Exactly Eric, exactly.

>>Exactly Eric, exactly.

Today's jobs report is both the nail in the coffin and warm up act for the singing fat lady.


This is over.  Wonder if he'll have as much class as Bush has upon leaving office?

"We're not going to let the fact checkers dictate our campaign!"

Couldn't agree more

The Plant Halted Production In December 2008, When President George W. Bush Was In Office

See here's the problem and this question makes that point.  Does it matter when the plant closed?  No.  Could Obama have don anything or even Bush for that matter done anything to prevent it?  No.

But we all get caught up in throwing stones, that we can't believe the facts if thay came up and bit us on the ass.  The fact is the production did not stop while Bush was in office, but you guys are hell bent on defending him, you can't admit that, it just like ELW who would never give Obama credit for anything.  You guys defend him no matter what, Eric attacks him no matter what.  

It was interesiting looking up Jon Stewart quotes and I could never point my finger on why he leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I figured it out.  While looking at his quotes he does this.

In other news today, Bush tripped getting off air force one, he then realized he tripped over a shoe someone threw at him.    See it's a double negitive  now for Obama...

In other news Tiger got spanked by Obama in the march madness brackets, then Tiger took him golfing.  See it's like two positives.

Cherry picking JS quostes?   As if he doesn't mock Obama?   Perhaps you missed the segment where he mocked the whole DNC for their buildup of Obama?


The whole "Production plant" nonsense you're deriding was caused by Ryan making a ridiculous argument in the first place, and getting called on it.  That's all.

Again, if you want to say the plant continued production, then you can't say Solyndra failed because it still exists.

Again, if you want to say the plant continued production, then you can't say Solyndra failed because it still exists.

I didn't realize Solyndra was still producing solar panels.

The whole "Production plant" nonsense
Then why does barackobama.com say the plant closed or ceased production 11 times in the first 4 paragraphs?

On JS, how did he mock Obama?  Of course he had to mock the DNC, the way they idolize Obama is.....well.....embarrassing.  Is he the devil, of corse not, is he god in an Ironman suit?  not that either.  He couldn't even save that poor little plant in Janesville.  :0  <<<<That's satire.

Then why does barackobama.com say the plant closed or ceased production 11 times in the first 4 paragraphs?

Because Ryan keeps repeating the same nonsensical argument.   Further,  I believe that even Ryan would consider production at the plant ending on Dec. 23 2008, not in April despite what was still trickling out.


Thanks for the satirical comedy - maybe conservatives do have some sense of humor!

>>The first link:  goes to 2012, it show the published unemployment rate went down (the red line) but real unemplyment went up (the blue line).  So although unemployment went down according to the red line true unemployment went up according to the blue line, as defined by clinton in 1994 per my second link.  

OK. I'm missing the entire blue line. I must not be looking at the right link. Can you repost the link for my dumb ass on this one.


>>"We're not going to let the fact checkers dictate our campaign!"
>>Couldn't agree more

With what? Lying outright? If your fact is checked and found to be false, stop running the ad. Or you keep running the ads since the masses don't check facts and you just want votes whether you are lying or not.

I have a lot of problems with that line and the blatant lying they proclaim to continue. Just like I thought the whole Romney caused that wife to die campaign was stupid. That was barely run though, and was not from the Obama campaign but some stupid SuperPac. Also with claiming that Romney supports abortion in rape cases just because it is in the GOP platform when he already stated he supports that exception.

They are all politicians and will all lie to get elected. Luckily in this day we have fact checking ability and the lying is really minimized against their will. If you openly say you are going to ignore the fact checking, and therefore facts, that is pretty f'd up.

>>They are all politicians and will all lie to get elected.


The whole Democrat party is based on lies.  The whole thing.

Policies have NEVER worked, never will work, but they keep pounding the drum.

here is the link.  It was at the top of the post.

>>Russo - I find your disdain for the American voter unsettling.

It is unsettling to me too. Outside of this forum there are other places I find those that are knowledgeable enough to convince me otherwise. Take a stroll through your local Walmart/Target/Sears/wherever though and people really are totally clueless as to what is going on and why they are voting for someone. Either they are blindly following their party with no idea why, they are going off old stereotypes, or they just 'like' someone with no way to tell you why.

How can this be the greatest country on earth if it's comprised of idiots?

The few that do know what the hell is going on are carrying this country forward. These are the scientists, engineers, teachers, analytic thinkers, and others that actually use their heads. The masses are too busy watching the Kardashians and are clueless and along for the ride.

Policies have NEVER worked, never will work, but they keep pounding the drum.

I know a guy who's father died when he was young.  Luckily, the Democratic policies of Social Security paid benefits to his family so that he was still fed, clothed, and housed until he was old enough to join the work force.


That guy's name?   Paul Ryan.

>>The whole Democrat party is based on lies.  The whole thing.

And the Republicans aren't? Don't be so naive Eric.

With what? Lying outright? If your fact is checked and found to be false, stop running the ad.

Man, that's why I'm so frustrated with this plant thing.  I't's on Obama's website.  If you look at the facts, production didn't stop till 2009.  That is a fact, period, no ands if or buts about that (closing, I can grant you can have different methods to measure).  But my liberal friends keep saying production stopped under Bush.   Now fine, as I've said before Obama had nothing to do with it, but the fact is production did not stop till April 2009 and liberals will still deny it with it staring them in the face.  Just look at this thread.  Fine they all do it.  Ryan is the worst liar in history and Romney likes to have sex with goats.  Obama saved us from a free falling economy that would of doomed us all to hell, and he dances good.  Who cares..........why can't liberals admit that production ended under Obama, not under Bush?

>>why can't liberals admit that production ended under Obama, not under Bush?

When the workers gather around the last vehicle they made with a date of December 2008 as in the picture above, that pretty much is strong evidence that for all reasonable purposes, that is when production stopped.

The rest is nitpicking and semantics.

>>Russo - I find your disdain for the American voter unsettling.

I feel you on this one.  I really do.  :(

THE DECISION TO CLOSE THE PLANT WAS MADE IN JUNE 2008

98% OF EMPLOYEES AND PRODUCTION OF SUV'S, THE REASON FOR THE PLANTS EXISTENCE, ENDED ON DEC 23, 2008

A FEW TRUCKS TRICKLED OUT FOR ANOTHER 4 MONTHS, BUT EVERYONE IN JAMESVILLE AND THE REST OF THE US CONSIDERED THE PLANT CLOSED AND PRODUCTION STOPPED

YOU'RE HARPING ON A MINOR CONDITION WHEN EVERYONE ELSE IS IN AGREEMENT, EVEN RYAN!

Thanks for the accurate link bergertime. I am skeptical of that site with the FoxNews video but following the chart back to it's source gives another site that seems more neutral and just based on economics.

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts

Apparently the blue line "...reflects current unemployment reporting methodology adjusted for SGS-estimated long-term discouraged workers, who were defined out of official existence in 1994."

I'm no economist and actually don't really get how they arrive at the blue line and what their 'adjustment' is and why I should believe it.

The gray line in the chart though signifies "...the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ (BLS) broadest unemployment measure, including short-term discouraged and other marginally-attached workers as well as those forced to work part-time because they cannot find full-time employment."

This seems like the most accurate representation with the BLS link provided earlier and the line that corresponds. I feel more comfortable following this line as it is from the BLS and not some mystery adjustment that I cannot find the explanation of, (or perhaps am too ignorant to understand if it is there).

According to this line, there is improvement as it goes down under Obama's term. Am I reading this correctly? This does look like the info I was looking for, and it does seem to show Obama's policies are effectively lowering the unemployment in this line.

I'm open to assistance in making sure I am understanding this all correctly as it does seem an important metric.

And on another subject which I'll bring in here as I seek and value your opinions: Iran

Google+ - "Take the challenge of Iran’s nuclear program, for… : https://plus.google.com/u/0/102001774674190160714/posts/WyDjyRy9zpu

"Take the challenge of Iran’s nuclear program, for instance, a top item on President Barack Obama’s international agenda and a hot topic in the campaign. As much as Mitt Romney and the Republicans talk about Iran, they always leave out a crucial fact: Obama has put Iran under the toughest sanctions and strongest international pressure it has ever faced.

The Obama administration has marshaled this pressure by taking a different approach from President Bush — steadily building a broad united front with other nations, instead of just issuing demands and expecting others to fall into line.

Obviously the problem of guaranteeing Iran is kept from building a nuclear weapon remains unresolved. The point is that Obama’s attempts at negotiation, tests of Iran’s good faith, continued pressure and international coalition-building give the best chance to reach a peaceful solution and avoid war. Romney and U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan love to talk about tough choices, yet on Iran they refuse to choose between supporting going to war or specifying what they would do differently from Obama.

I often quote a favorite line from Council on Foreign Relations President Richard Haass (a Republican, by the way) that captures the essential challenge to America as a global power: “The United States does not need the world’s permission to act, but it does need the world’s support to succeed.” Because of our military and economic power, America has unique leverage — and responsibility — that is, indeed, essential to our foreign policy."

The differences between the two parties and campaigns on foreign policy is one of the greatest as well as one of the most bizarre given the history of the two parties. Prior to the last GOP Administration, the Republicans were often viewed as the grown-ups on foreign policy, the responsible, pragmatic, realpolitik party. This all changed with the rise of the neo-conservatives and we are left today with a party that seems divorced from reality, expecting other countries to magically follow us without taking the time to persuade and convince them, and to spend wildly on defense without matching that up with concrete threats and needs.

Do any of you have a view on the foreign policy differences between the two and, if so, are they different than that outlined in this piece?

Obama v. Romney on Foreign Policy - A Guide for Iowans - democracyarsenal.org : http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2012/09/obama-v-romney-on-foreign-policy-a-guide-for-iowans.html


Thoughts?

I agree and one of the reasons for the second link was so you could see the two graphs were the same up till the second one ended at 2009.  I figured the fox link would make you unsure.  But the first link and the second from wikepedia match.

You can go to bls.com (Bereau of Labor) and see how they come to these stats.  But keep in mind it was redone under Clinton in '94.  Yes the red line goes down, but the blue line goes up.  People are just being moved from one group of unemployed to the other.

>>Yes the red line goes down, but the blue line goes up.  People are just being moved from one group of unemployed to the other.

I'm skeptical of the blue line. The gray line though seems accurate with the BLS chart previously so I am following that, and it does show improvement under Obama.

Geez.  

I think I've participated in thousands of these "opinion zone" threads, and I hate these long threads because they jump from one thing to another and another.  Ever notice that usually the awarded postings are made among the first several or during the first few days?

Eric opens new questions frequently -- great.

My suggestion to authors and participants in these long threads is to start a new thread and give the others a link or mention about it.

These zones are no longer moderated as they have previously been, so you guys could go on and on here.  But I'm going to unsubscribe soon -- mainly because I get so many email alerts to a thread I'm no longer interested in.  I'll wait to see any replies here before I unsubscribe.

Understood WaterStreet and agree. I'm also probably the biggest culprit here about not opening new questions as I just rather go on and on in a thread on a different tangent.

Good thing we have Eric.

I hope you choose to use the Un-Monitor link on long threads rather than Un-Subscribing from the zone.

It will be the Un-Monitor link.  I'll keep getting alerts of new threads in these zones.

I'm retired, and hope to be 70 next month.  I've got a lot of things I never get to do, so I don't like spending a lot of time "beating a dead horse."  My personal preference is to only participate in threads that I feel I can make a good contribution or want to spend the time to research and understand better.  I prefer to post something that should be persuasive with minimal argument -- do it, argue it and move back to my personal life and other interests.  

This usually means that I have to spend time to dig for the information -- I often then find that the varying views don't persuade even me -- so I don't post in those cases.  If I do post then I don't mind arguing about it for a few posts.  Then I'm done.  More often than not in this Politics Zone the topics shifts to something else.  

This is important: In this zone, many times we find members' assertions very misleading, but they are true about something, whether in the opening question or in the thread itself.  This is the same with our discussions in everyday life.  Somebody says something he strongly believes, but I don't.  Give him credit for having some amount of brain.  There is probably some truth in what he is saying, but he didn't express it accurately.  I think in this zone, as in life, we should try to acknowledge what portion of what he is trying to say is true, so that it can be discussed; and also bring up the other truths about it.

Well said WaterStreet.