Personal Tracking Device
I am looking for a small transmitter and receiver that can be used as a tracking/homing device.
The spec:
A group of people out hiking get lost - completely lost, so they sit tight and await rescue. They have a small battery operated transmitter on them and the people back at base camp have a receiver - preferably a car mounted one that can be removed to continue the tracking by foot. When the transmitter is switched on the receiver can then direct the rescuers to them.
The range of the unit really need not be more than 10 miles for the sort of expedition work we are training people for.
I *DO NOT* want an internet based one - we will not have access to PC's where we are.
The unit must also be available in the UK, or at least be legal to use in the UK.
The spec:
A group of people out hiking get lost - completely lost, so they sit tight and await rescue. They have a small battery operated transmitter on them and the people back at base camp have a receiver - preferably a car mounted one that can be removed to continue the tracking by foot. When the transmitter is switched on the receiver can then direct the rescuers to them.
The range of the unit really need not be more than 10 miles for the sort of expedition work we are training people for.
I *DO NOT* want an internet based one - we will not have access to PC's where we are.
The unit must also be available in the UK, or at least be legal to use in the UK.
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Bob Stone
They could wear the smaller dog collars as bracelets or attached to a backpack.
I say put the dog collars on the kids and chain them all together so they can't run as fast, you won't have to work so hard to keep up!!
Kenoso,
The problem with the avalanche beacons is their limited range. Most of them are only good for a 100 meters or so - the assumption being that you know where the avalance was, you just need to find the victims in the snow.
The problem with the avalanche beacons is their limited range. Most of them are only good for a 100 meters or so - the assumption being that you know where the avalance was, you just need to find the victims in the snow.
ASKER
The gun dog collars look like they might be a viable option.
if i am not mistaken, almost the whole of uk is mobile phone covered.
check if your mobile phone carrier can do this trick: report the location. it won't give you the exact pin point though, but at least you know which mountain you are on.
it compares the signal strength of 3 transmitter towers (very much like gps) and estimate where you are.
of course, for a pin point, gps is the only choice
check out the local car security experts, there is a system that combines gps and gsm technology for car recovery or fleet management.
check if your mobile phone carrier can do this trick: report the location. it won't give you the exact pin point though, but at least you know which mountain you are on.
it compares the signal strength of 3 transmitter towers (very much like gps) and estimate where you are.
of course, for a pin point, gps is the only choice
check out the local car security experts, there is a system that combines gps and gsm technology for car recovery or fleet management.
<just tracking thread>
ASKER
chiingliang - mobile phones are all well and good when they work, but there are quite large areas of the UK where coverage is very poor - certain parts of the lake district, the Pembrokeshire coast, Dartmoor and Exmoor for instance.
The reason I do not want to go along the GPS route is that in heavily wooded areas, which is where a lot of our training is done, GPS systems are quite simply not accurate enough.
The reason I do not want to go along the GPS route is that in heavily wooded areas, which is where a lot of our training is done, GPS systems are quite simply not accurate enough.
MusicMan,
I have done a lot of wilderness and SAR training, and the only time that I had a team seriously lost (seriously meaning out of contact for more than 4 hours, out of the designated training area, and requiring resources to locate the team) was with a bunch of Civil Air Patrol cadets (age 14-16) who got turned around, realized they were turned around, and decided to follow a stray dog as a means of getting out of the situation. This wasn't the same group who packed in a cast-iron frying pan for an overnight bivvy (notice they packed it IN. It's now becoming part of the environment somewhere in central Virginia).
The reality of the units Stone5150 mentioned is that I don't know if the FRS frequencies are legal in the UK, but even if they are, the actual effective range of these is less than a mile in most situation. My answer to your problem (as opposed to the actual question) would be training. In general, giving a bail-out bearing ("if all else fails, head due east until you hit the road") generally works. So do recognizable catching features. There's no fix for idiocy (see above story), but generally you should be able to spot them before turning them lose.
Cheers,
LHerrou
I have done a lot of wilderness and SAR training, and the only time that I had a team seriously lost (seriously meaning out of contact for more than 4 hours, out of the designated training area, and requiring resources to locate the team) was with a bunch of Civil Air Patrol cadets (age 14-16) who got turned around, realized they were turned around, and decided to follow a stray dog as a means of getting out of the situation. This wasn't the same group who packed in a cast-iron frying pan for an overnight bivvy (notice they packed it IN. It's now becoming part of the environment somewhere in central Virginia).
The reality of the units Stone5150 mentioned is that I don't know if the FRS frequencies are legal in the UK, but even if they are, the actual effective range of these is less than a mile in most situation. My answer to your problem (as opposed to the actual question) would be training. In general, giving a bail-out bearing ("if all else fails, head due east until you hit the road") generally works. So do recognizable catching features. There's no fix for idiocy (see above story), but generally you should be able to spot them before turning them lose.
Cheers,
LHerrou
There are some places the bail-out stuff don't work. I have hiked in Arizona where if you head the wrong direction looking for a road or river you might have to walk about 200+ miles to get to anything other than dirt. Best to tell them to find a clearing and sit still.
The GPS/Radio unit that I mentioned has an advertised range of 4 or 5 miles, and an effective range of between 1 and 3, depending on terrain. The RFID trakers are good for 100's of meters on a good day.
I think the dog collar idea is the best, but why pay full price? Try here http://search.ebay.com/tracking-collar_W0QQfclZ4QQfnuZ1
The GPS/Radio unit that I mentioned has an advertised range of 4 or 5 miles, and an effective range of between 1 and 3, depending on terrain. The RFID trakers are good for 100's of meters on a good day.
I think the dog collar idea is the best, but why pay full price? Try here http://search.ebay.com/tracking-collar_W0QQfclZ4QQfnuZ1
ASKER
The people I am involved in training are either Scouts and / or involved in the Duke of Edinburgh award scheme, so they are not complete numbskulls. We operate off route plans and do have emergency escape routes. Generally everything is ok and the majority of the kids we teach will either realise they are lost and be able to backtrack or just don't get lost at all - it is only the very odd cases where people do not realise they are lost and, in one case, get so disorientated that they were convinced the compass was faulty!!
The main reason we are looking into these is because of the new breed of over protective parents worrying because their darling angel of a child is being led into difficult situations - regardless of the fact that we do not let them go unless we think they are competant and we give them quite a lot of training first. If we could just say that we had a tracking device fixed to them so if the worse happens we can find them.
We had a situation last year when a team of 4 got into difficulty when one of them seriously injured his knee and couldn't continue. The group put all the emergency procedures into place and managed to raise the alarm in a safe and efficient manner. Sadly the local press picked up on the story and reported that a group of kids got into trouble and had to call air sea resuce, not that they followed procedures perfectly, gave their grid reference exactly and prepared for evacuation just as they had been taught.
I feel sure that if I did buy one of these devices it would never be used, but if it would allay the fears of *some* parents then it may be worth the money.
The main reason we are looking into these is because of the new breed of over protective parents worrying because their darling angel of a child is being led into difficult situations - regardless of the fact that we do not let them go unless we think they are competant and we give them quite a lot of training first. If we could just say that we had a tracking device fixed to them so if the worse happens we can find them.
We had a situation last year when a team of 4 got into difficulty when one of them seriously injured his knee and couldn't continue. The group put all the emergency procedures into place and managed to raise the alarm in a safe and efficient manner. Sadly the local press picked up on the story and reported that a group of kids got into trouble and had to call air sea resuce, not that they followed procedures perfectly, gave their grid reference exactly and prepared for evacuation just as they had been taught.
I feel sure that if I did buy one of these devices it would never be used, but if it would allay the fears of *some* parents then it may be worth the money.
Then buy some doggie collars off ebay, take the collar part off and attach a belt clip. Paint the orange if you want just so the nervous mommies and daddies can see it better. The less money spent the better.
Agreed, sometimes you need to take extra steps for the parents. On the other hand, the knowledge that they have the devices might remove motivation that the young adults have to solve problems for themselves.
Stone5150, I know what they claim for the devices, but I also know that in practical use (from wilderness to open road to urban settings) I have NEVER gotten anything close to the claimed distance - in fact, once over 1/2 mile, they basically operate on line of sight. Even the professional programmable field radios we use don't offer more than a couple of miles in a wilderness setting, unless we use repeaters.
Stone5150, I know what they claim for the devices, but I also know that in practical use (from wilderness to open road to urban settings) I have NEVER gotten anything close to the claimed distance - in fact, once over 1/2 mile, they basically operate on line of sight. Even the professional programmable field radios we use don't offer more than a couple of miles in a wilderness setting, unless we use repeaters.
The claimed distance is apparently line of sight under optimal conditions. I said that the advertised distance is about 4 -5 miles and actual is about 1 - 3 depending on terrain. I guess I should have put the less than sign in front of the 1 mile. <1 mile is about right. I have gotten up to 3 - 3.5 miles in open desert and about 3/4 of a mile in urban setting.
ASKER
>>On the other hand, the knowledge that they have the devices might remove motivation that the young adults have to solve problems for themselves.
Good point - quite often we have to remind some of them that mummy isn't here and they have to do things for themselves.
If we do end up buying one then I think the dog transmitter would be the way to go, however we have been running these courses for over 10 years and we haven't lost anyone (yet!!) and don't plan on starting to now. I think this may have been a bit of a knee jerk reaction from a conversation with a particulary paranoid mother at a pre meet a few weeks back (her little angel will only just be 14 and he is very small for his age - how can he possibly complete a 2 day training session)
The areas we use for the beginners are fairly easy terrain with a fair number of landmarks - I think we will just let them get lost and go hunting them down once in a while.
I'll keep this open for a little longer though.
Good point - quite often we have to remind some of them that mummy isn't here and they have to do things for themselves.
If we do end up buying one then I think the dog transmitter would be the way to go, however we have been running these courses for over 10 years and we haven't lost anyone (yet!!) and don't plan on starting to now. I think this may have been a bit of a knee jerk reaction from a conversation with a particulary paranoid mother at a pre meet a few weeks back (her little angel will only just be 14 and he is very small for his age - how can he possibly complete a 2 day training session)
The areas we use for the beginners are fairly easy terrain with a fair number of landmarks - I think we will just let them get lost and go hunting them down once in a while.
I'll keep this open for a little longer though.
>the devices might remove motivation that the young adults have to solve problems for themselves.<
>Good point - quite often we have to remind some of them that mummy isn't here and they have to do things for themselves.<
Right, and the radio thing might give them a crutch and may not work when/if needed. I say let them get lost really good, leave them overnight and them pick them up in the morning. With any luck it will rain.
>Good point - quite often we have to remind some of them that mummy isn't here and they have to do things for themselves.<
Right, and the radio thing might give them a crutch and may not work when/if needed. I say let them get lost really good, leave them overnight and them pick them up in the morning. With any luck it will rain.
ASKER
lol - I like your style!!! That is my sentiment too, unfortunately we are not allowed to be that mean :(
MusicMan
I know you have earlier dismised the Cellphone option, but I would encourage you to review this I worked for a firm who had a engineer working in the lakes nd they were tracked using his mobile to tell the operators where he was and advise like ETA and it covered the lakes a little to well for him he said.
One other option is rather than cell phones, satellite phones may provide an answer, have you tried asking the Moutain rescue and SAR teams, they may have some advise (apart from saying dont go up there in the first place).
I know you have earlier dismised the Cellphone option, but I would encourage you to review this I worked for a firm who had a engineer working in the lakes nd they were tracked using his mobile to tell the operators where he was and advise like ETA and it covered the lakes a little to well for him he said.
One other option is rather than cell phones, satellite phones may provide an answer, have you tried asking the Moutain rescue and SAR teams, they may have some advise (apart from saying dont go up there in the first place).
ASKER
The two main reasons I dismissed mobile phones are:
1. A lot of the places we run our courses have little or no mobile phone reception, thus rendering them useless.
2. All the mobile phone tracking services *that I have seen* require some sort of subscription and tracking is normally done on via the internet.
One of the training areas that we use is very heavily forested and even our best GPS systems return an accuracy report of about 100 metres at best, plus we don't really have time to teach the youngsters how to use them - we would rather spend the time on teaching better map and compass skills.
As I said above, it is unlikely that we will actually buy one, it is just a lot of parents are getting more and more jittery about their children being out in the open without adults with them - and as they have no experience of this sort of thing they get overly worried.
1. A lot of the places we run our courses have little or no mobile phone reception, thus rendering them useless.
2. All the mobile phone tracking services *that I have seen* require some sort of subscription and tracking is normally done on via the internet.
One of the training areas that we use is very heavily forested and even our best GPS systems return an accuracy report of about 100 metres at best, plus we don't really have time to teach the youngsters how to use them - we would rather spend the time on teaching better map and compass skills.
As I said above, it is unlikely that we will actually buy one, it is just a lot of parents are getting more and more jittery about their children being out in the open without adults with them - and as they have no experience of this sort of thing they get overly worried.
Get one of the richer and more worrisome parents to donate one to your little enterprise.
Two words...satellite phone. Works anywhere and everywhere.
Two words...Wussy gaylords. If it don't kill em it makes em tough.
FRS radios have range of several miles. May not be available in the UK.
http://www.alfenterprises.com/frs_gmrs_radios.html
http://www.alfenterprises.com/frs_gmrs_radios.html
Thanks for the points and the "A"!
Thanks for the lost yuppie puppy points.