Question

I had to uninstall ZoneAlarm... will my Router's NAT and Windows XP Firewall be enough?

Asked by: davidgareau

I had one of the funny errors with ICS (Internet Connection Sharing) that made it so by using ZoneAlarm Free, I couldn't connect my computers via LAN but they all had Internet connection, though my LinkSys Router (via Comcast Cable modem)

So, now I just have the LinkSys Router's firewall and the Windows Firewall.

I used to get lots of signals about computers trying to contact me via ping or whatever....
With Windows Firewall I get none of these, does this mean that Windows Firewall is weak or just hiding the alerts?

What is the NAT firewall blocking?  How does it differ from the software firewall.

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Asked On
2006-02-06 at 06:29:19ID21725347
Tags

zonealarm

,

router

,

nat

Topics

Miscellaneous Security

,

Consumer Firewalls

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Comments
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Answers

 

by: TolomirPosted on 2006-02-06 at 07:02:45ID: 15883108

Alright, here is my home setup:

DSL modem with router, WLAN connection to my computers. On my main computer ZA pro installed / nod32 Antivirus.

In zonealarm you must define a local network, within that network ip range (you set to trusted) filesharing is possible.
Appearently you activated ICS to allow ip forwarding to/from the internet  to/from your other computers. Filesharing / Remote Desktop is a different thing.

So, with your setup right now everything is fine. Of cause the internal windows firewall just drops those incoming request, without giving a notice about that as ZA does....

NAT is natwork address translation: This means you got your very own private 192.168.x.x network (I guess you are using DHCP?) so any packets from any computer within your network, has a 192.168.x.y IP number. When you send a packets to the internet your router modifies it with his IP as origin and keeps a tableentry about this translation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_address_translation (for details)

Any incoming packet doesn't know about your private network, they "see" the router and "think" this is the endpoint. So without any open port e.g. you have established for filesharing, an uninvited packet is dropped. This provies some safety, because your router cannot be hacked like a plain unpached windows computer could be because he doesn't provide any services like filesharing / remote desktop / ftp by himself.

The ZA software firewall, blocks those attempts from the outside too, but it can be easier attacked itself, because ZA is some standard, a hacker could deal with,there ware ways to find out if ZA is up and running... But a hacker cannot know which hardware router you are using, because there are too many out there, with all different features and/or different flaws (nothing is perfect).

BUT a hardware router/firewall solution  doesn't block outgoing traffic by default, here can ZA come into play. You can define that e.g. word.exe cannot connect to the internet (on the application level) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model. Of cause there are ways to smuggle a packet through the ZA gateway without permission but in most cases you are getting warned by ZA if  such an event happens.

Tolomir


 

by: masnrockPosted on 2006-02-06 at 14:13:25ID: 15887632

I'd confirm a lot of what Tolomir already said.

Windows Firewall tends to drop packets rather than reject. Basically the same thing, but it pretty ignores the packet when it drops it (same thing you wish you could do when you hear coworkers whining).

Software firewalls are generally host based. That is, they're intended for one machine. However, there are ways to have one machine protect a whole network, such as configuring one as a router (ICS is pretty much a low-end easy version of this). Firewalls integrated into routers are kinda similar... except the router is where the point of failure is. Hardware firewalls will actually protect at all costs, but don't do the routing work that a router would.

As long as the configuration on the Linksys is good, then you'll be fairly safe (assuming you didn't do a DMZ or things like that)

 

by: MikeDiehnPosted on 2006-02-06 at 21:35:07ID: 15889837


Just to be sure I understand your question:

So, your cable model *was* plugged into a computer on which you had ZA installed and ICS configured, right?  And the other computers in your network were connected to a switch/hub to which was also connected your ICS gateway computer? And in that configuration, ZA used to warn you about a lot of intrusion attemps, pings, etc., coming in from the Internet?

*Now* you have the cable modem connected to the Internet port of a Linksys Cable/DSL Router and all your computers are connected to the LAN ports of that router?  Or something really a lot like that, eh?

And you're wondering why the computer is so much more quiet now? Simple answer is that the Linksys is screening out all that clutter you were used to seeing on the ICS computer.

If you're setup like I think you are, and you're keeping your computers' AV signatures up to date, have Windows Update running automatically and have the Windows firewalls turned on, you should be safe.

Add this to Tolomir's detailed explanation of NAT and I think you've got both your questions answered.  Let us know if not, eh?

Best,
Mike

 

by: davidgareauPosted on 2006-02-11 at 02:00:52ID: 15929998

Hey guys, thanks for the insights,

To clarify, I have a cable modem, and wireless linkSys Router (which acts also as a switch I think, according to the manual, and a NAT firewall)

So, I have 2 desktops plugged into the wireless router, and one laptop that connects, you guessed it, wirelessly.

I previously had ZA Free on all three computers, and now, I have uninstalled it and only use Windows XP SP2 firewall.

So, Windows drops the packets, ZA rejects (or asks you if you want to) reject them.
So, ZA can block outgoing traffic (like Word.exe) why would you want this?  Trojans?  Can Windows XP Firewall do this?

Is there any other benefit (beside notification of rejected packets) to use ZoneAlarm, considering it's higher resource requirements as oppossed to Windows XP firewall?

So, if my NAT firewall should be blocking uninvited packets, why was I still getting a lot of pings and things like that with ZA?  SHouldn't they have been blocked by the router?

Lastly, how much does the use of a NAT and software firewall slow down my downloads on P2P (assuming I"ve enabled the required port for the software) for example do to processing the packets before letting them pass?

thanks
david

 

by: davidgareauPosted on 2006-02-11 at 02:02:00ID: 15930002

OH, by the way, how could I have the software firewall run on only one machine, so as to limit the amount of resources being used on the others?

 

by: TolomirPosted on 2006-02-11 at 02:32:24ID: 15930059

> So, Windows drops the packets, ZA rejects (or asks you if you want to) reject them.
> So, ZA can block outgoing traffic (like Word.exe) why would you want this?  Trojans?  Can Windows XP Firewall do this?
Trojans, home phoning software, spam related tools - adware etc...


Is there any other benefit (beside notification of rejected packets) to use ZoneAlarm, considering it's higher resource requirements as oppossed to Windows XP firewall?
It gives you a great log of what it allowed, blacked, which application did what etc... (especiallay ZA pro / suite)


So, if my NAT firewall should be blocking uninvited packets, why was I still getting a lot of pings and things like that with ZA?  SHouldn't they have been blocked by the router?
Your router could allow pings, a ping is no UDP/TCP but an icmp packet, that is handled differently, maybe he just broadcasts the ping to all computers within your network, got to few details though, to give you a precise information, btw. standard pings are not evil ;-)

A Myth is this stealth port though. shiledsup from grc.com is so proud of.

To make your computer / router really invisible from the internet, the last router (most likely hardware of your ISP) has to send an icmp message back to the "attacker" >>host is unreachable<< - a "no answer" screams to the attacker, well there is someone equipped with a firewall, fell free to check for intrusion opportunities.


> Lastly, how much does the use of a NAT and software firewall slow down my downloads on P2P (assuming I"ve enabled the required port for
> the software) for example do to processing the packets before letting them pass?

Not really, but your router might(!!) have a common flaw. Each connection (attempt) creates a table entry within the router's NAT table. Since p2p means 500 or more concurrent sessions after a day or two permanent p2p activity the router might get in trouble with a full NAT table, forcing a manual router reboot. This happens if the router doesn't clean up his NAT table after a connection is stalled, broken, finished.

Tolomir

 

by: davidgareauPosted on 2006-02-12 at 04:04:46ID: 15934369

Tolomir>>>
What benefit could I gain from a standard ping being allowed, as per my uses of the internet (surfing, downloading, P2P)?
How can I tell if my router sends sends the "host unreachable" or teh "no answer" message?  Is there a way to set it to do one or the other?
How would I figure out if the NAT table is filling up as you mentioned because of P2P?
How would I clear it, or preferably set it up so that it wouldn't fill up as such?

thanks
david

 

by: TolomirPosted on 2006-02-12 at 04:27:40ID: 15934416

Pings are used in p2p optimizations. But they are highly optional. I think they are used in online games too.

But you don't need them. As said I have too few details about your router (do you got some type details for me)
---
Nat table, well just download/shre a couple of files and let it run for 48 hours. If the router is flawed, your internet connection should be broken and you can no longer access the router - so just a manual off/on switching helps.
---
Since this is quote firmware related, if your router is flawed, there is little you can do about it, especially there is no typical problem, but you see just the result (connection broken).

As said, let the p2p (e.g. bittorrent) run for 48 hours heavy loaded (no, please no latest commercial movie ;-)
and check yourself. (You could offer some ubuntu linux distro images e.g.  

http://ubuntu.mirrors.tds.net/pub/linux/ftp.ubuntu.com/releases/5.10/ubuntu-5.10-install-amd64.iso.torrent
http://ubuntu.mirrors.tds.net/pub/linux/ftp.ubuntu.com/releases/5.10/ubuntu-5.10-install-i386.iso.torrent
http://ubuntu.mirrors.tds.net/pub/linux/ftp.ubuntu.com/releases/5.10/ubuntu-5.10-install-powerpc.iso.torrent
http://ubuntu.mirrors.tds.net/pub/linux/ftp.ubuntu.com/releases/5.10/ubuntu-5.10-live-amd64.iso.torrent
http://ubuntu.mirrors.tds.net/pub/linux/ftp.ubuntu.com/releases/5.10/ubuntu-5.10-live-i386.iso.torrent
http://ubuntu.mirrors.tds.net/pub/linux/ftp.ubuntu.com/releases/5.10/ubuntu-5.10-live-powerpc.iso.torrent

This should do the "trick"

If you need a proper client: http://azureus.sourceforge.net/

Tolomir

Tolomir

 

by: davidgareauPosted on 2006-02-12 at 06:57:46ID: 15934738

I'm using a LinkSys Wireless B Broadband router.

http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Download_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1115417109974&packedargs=sku%3D1115416826220&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper

I have installed this latest firmware.
I have let it run for a few days, and it still downloads, but not too fast.
It might just be the files I'm trying to get aren't popular, because all my Rapidshare, MSN Video, and other downloads work fast (600-1000KB/s) while usually Shareaza is running 10-30KB/s... But it gets up to 200KB/s sometimes.

 

by: TolomirPosted on 2006-02-12 at 09:36:11ID: 15935438

Alright, then I see no router related problems.

Tolomir

 

by: JaySullyPosted on 2006-02-14 at 06:13:29ID: 15950954

It may be a P2P throttle setting. Or a limit of the other person's band width.

I think that we are extremly off topic, for the record!

 

by: davidgareauPosted on 2006-02-17 at 01:34:33ID: 15978833

That's a good point, sorry, it' s hard to quit while I'm getting good advice, I forget that it's a thread-based forum someitmes and take it as an ongoing chat instead....bad David....bad David... :-)

thanks for teh help guys
if I have more questions about my P2p program I'll post a new question.
thanks
david

 

by: TolomirPosted on 2006-02-17 at 02:12:43ID: 15978988

You are welcome.

Tolomir

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