MDaemon Vs Exchange Server

Here's an opposing view:-

One thing I like about mdaemon is that all messages are immediately available for manipulation using DOS commands if necessary, rather than being in what I believe is a proprietary, monolithic blob (which needs special tools to prod it).  The mailstore can get as large as the hard drive, but can be spread over different disks - one person's mailbox can be on one disk, another on another - mdaemon is flexible at the ubiquitous file structure level.  Yes that is a disadvantage in terms of file accessibility, time taken to do global operations with data can be quite time consuming, but there is never a need to take mdaemon out of service whilst doing file maintenance operations.  Maintenance of messages is a doddle, you can cut messages out of a mail directory, paste them elsewhere using Windows Explorer - so long as one knows what one is doing.

If you really want to do massive searches for text occurrences within the mailstore, there is a third-part indexer which uses SQL.  

Another is the immediate access I have to look at - for example - SMTP transactions as they occur in real-time.

My biggest client using Mdaemon?  A company with around 50 employees... who moved away from Exchange (We migrated them over a weekend)., this was a fair few years ago, they have never looked back.  

This is the search facility I was referring to:-

http://www.achab.com/prod/intern.cfm/13/177/45

I was playing around with MDaemon , and I could not find a way to have 2 users open the same mailbox... is that feasible ?

Hi
when it come for easy data access using windows explorer, this is consider a Very high risk, as the data can be easily stolen, although a bigger disk IO, as the emails are going to be read fie by file, and there will be no engine to make the read fast, you maybe run this software in a network that include a 50  user only, but like this working method, having a network with about 200 use or more, the server will die quick. and what about the mentinance, that depend on what kind of mentinance you want to perform, exchange server always perform an online defrag and scanning for the database, the only way you need to stop the database, when there is a corruption , you can also move the users with the database online, backup online,.... etc
there is a missing thing in Daemon that is the search, this depend on the client not on the server, with exchange you can make a search index to make the search on the large database much faster.
Daemon, dont support Active Directory, so users will not be listed when users need to send an internal mail, how are the users going to know each other, and having a pop or imap client mean amuch more work on the client pc, there having MAPI client mean less work with client and bit more work with server
and I am sure that working with a single server to perfome an operation like making a new folder in all the outlook client using exchange 2007 is Extramlly easier that going to each client and set it manually

Thats my point

Ok so I fired up my VMWare Server and did some testing.

Install Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition with SP2
Allow Updates to run & turn on auto update
Close Startup Wizards.
Install VMware Tools
Take Snapshot of machine
Install Mdaemon Free Edition
Try out webmail
-- looks a bit like squirrel mail, but supports formatted body text in emails.
Startup a VM I installed 14 days ago that has XP Home on to.
Installed Ofice 2007 Enterprise.
Attempt to install outlook connector
Tells me to install it on server
Back on server install outlook connector
It sends an email to all mailboxes with a link to the outllook connector client
Got to webmail client but can't find the email.
Looking around even IMAP is diabled.
-- Conclusion - The free version is rubbish.
Revert to snapshot in VMWARE & reboot
Install mdaemon full version 30day trial
Create account and check webmail works.
--looks a bit like Outlook web access
--has language select choices in the language selector on login.
Install Outlook connector on Server.
--after a fair bit of poking around and reading FAQ's etc,
  I finally found a button in the Options Section of WebMail Client
  to download the outlook client connector.


Overall First Impressions.
1. More basic than exchange, but the best attempt I've seen to replace it.
2. Emails don't come through until you click Send/Receive
   (or presumably wait until outlook client actually checks the server)
3. Clients have to be created as Outlook Clients AFTER the Outlook connector is installed.
4. Does allow simultaneous Outlook Client and Web Access
5. Allows Simultaneous access from two Outlook Clients.
   Folder Operations don't show up in the other client.

Recommendations:-

If you want a free Mail Server for Windows don't use this one.
  Goto http://www.hmailserver.com instead

If you want me to quickly try something on my test setup before I delete it,
post a message here soon.

Otherwise, download a free trial and test it out yourself.
If you don't have a huge pile of test machines get yourself a
free copy of VMWare Server first http://www.vmware.com/products/server/

I've had a bit more of a look and also installed the security/antivirus module.
It took a long time to download the virus definitions, but in general the security options look quite complete.
I'd like to see more of a point scoring system when it comes to HELO and PTR checking etc, but in general as good as anything else I've seen packaged up for Windows.  Not as customisable as a DIY linux system of course but still quite good.

I won't replacing any of my exchange servers any time soon, and I think that by the time you compare the cost of SERVER2003 + MDAEMON + OUTLOOKCONNECTOR, it probably cheaper to buy Windows SBS.
I think Mdaemon is definitely worth consideration in smaller sites who run Server 2003 who want a mail server and don't have one already, especially if they want an easy to install and use webmail client.

As for answering THIS QUESTION, I would recommend that you first seriously try to fix your exchange annoyances before attempting a cut over.  Outlook 2007 integrates with Exchange on a domain beautifully and you'll loose all that if you switch to Mdaemon.  Perhaps you should ask separate questions for each problem you have.  I'm sure Housammuhanna could do with a few more points.

Having said that I wouldn't (and don't) allow exchange to receive emails directly from the internet.  The security add-on product that is offered by Alt-N looks ok, but I think I'll stick with using hmailserver to do that job on windows or postfix where possible.

Good luck

HI again
I am not going to talk about the free Edition
I am going to make a LAP in the next 2 days and Do a Good details compare about both app, but before this, let me ask some Q:

-Does MDaemon have Right Click options, when you are using the web edition
-Does MDaemon have a light web Edition for unsupported clients
-Does MDaemon have a Mobile Edtition for fast and cheap browsing

its not important the interface, as its import to be able to reach for what are you looking for fast
what about the Security, I am going to install both and Run HTTP scan to see the result

-Does MDaemon support HTTP and certificate and SAN Cert.
-Can you install MDaemon on a cluster node and manage the Active/Passive Acitve/Active Cluster
-Does it support Digital Signature and message Security like exchange

I am not ready to lose the outlook/Exchange/Active Directory integration just for such a pop and smtp service, no matter the problem.
every system has a problem

but let be honst when do I advice another mail service

I think that its better to have another Mail service when your company can not pay the price for exchange or it has a small number of users like 10 or 15

and as I told you, I will run a good compare between both system and post the result back

thanks people for all your help.... will be waiting,.,,

-Does MDaemon have Right Click options, when you are using the web edition

No, but what kind of things would you be expecting to do on the Right Click

-Does MDaemon have a light web Edition for unsupported clients

What unsupported clients were you thinking of?   Mdaemon is designed to work with standard protocols.

-Does MDaemon have a Mobile Edtition for fast and cheap browsing

Again, mdaemon works with standard protocols, but there is a special program written by third party for the blackberry.

-Does it support Digital Signature and message Security like exchange

Yes it does

I restarted my test server today to look at a few things.

First thing I notice is that MDaemon does not start by itself.
It's not installed as a service, its a console application.
So I had to login and run it.

-Does MDaemon have a Mobile Edtition for fast and cheap browsing
-Does MDaemon have a light web Edition for unsupported clients
Yes it does, it have a Mobile Theme which is very cut back that would work nicely on a PDA screen.
In fact there are several themes to choose from.

-Does it support Digital Signature and message Security like exchange
For TLS on the server side, it appears to create its own self signed certificates, not use real ones though.
For Digital Signatures, any Mail Server with a Basic POP3 Account can support this, as it is up to the client, not the server to provide the support.  I assume here that the client will still be Outlook or Outlook Express which can both do digital signatures.

HI, again, what I mean about.

Does MDaemon have Right Click options, when you are using the web edition?
What I mean about this is when you press the Right click on the message, does it display a menu with options like reply, remove...etc

-Does MDaemon have a light web Edition for unsupported clients
some web client dont support Ajax or support it in limited mode like, opera, Firefox...

-Does MDaemon have a Mobile Edtition for fast and cheap browsing
Here, I am not talking about protocol, I am talk about webbrowsing over the mobile, when I open the webedition over the mobile, it the page going to be displayed very big ot will fit the mobile

Thanks bevhost for clearing something

Mdaemon does start as a Service.  There is an option to disable that if that is preferred.

>Does MDaemon have Right Click options,
They are there on the screen already, but the exact answer to your question is "no"

WorldClient (the web app) does not automatically refresh.  It is supported by all browsers that I have come across - as bevhost says, there are different "skins" that can be used.  I tend to use the simplest scheme, because it loads quickly and I'm much more interested in reading my emails than in appearance.

What has to be borne in mind is that Mdaemon is a MailServer.  This is the core competency of the package.  Basically you can attach anything to it at the client end and you will get sensible results.

The AV package uses Karspersky as its' engine, but even without that, the program detects zip's and exe's masqueraiding as Britney Jpegs and movies.

As for compliance, there is an option to take an exact copy of all emails in their Raw format, before any headers are added (such as Black Hole flagging and Spam Scoring).  The Administrator has good control over these things so it is easy to see what is going on, and what order things happen in.

I tend to notice that working with email messages as separate files instead of having a huge file private.edb that grows and grows and can not see what's inside....make it creepy to think what might happen if it gets corrupted.....
I am seeing that MDaemon , for users around 50 or so is the better (easier) option....

We had corruption problems with the 50 users on Exchange - some kind of virus found its way in there.  Maybe it wasn't setup right by our predecessors, but this is the thing about Exchange, it is far too proprietary and monolithic for the average administrator to get their head round.  When I go into a client I believe in setting them up in a way where they can be self-sufficient on a month-by-month basis.  The number of times I have been asked to take over and administer Exchange systems is quite substantial, and there's a theme running through all of these: the previous encumbents have been fired as incompetent, they practice lock-in tactics but then can't deliver, reliability is poor, no preventive maintenance has been carried out.  Often the number of mailboxes is half a dozen at most.  

There seems to be some kind of stigma attached to the word "easier" for some reason.  Are IT people such masochists?  Do you dread hearing those words when picking up the phone "we have no email"?  I don't know about you, but I like to sleep easy at night - I have literally dozens of clients using Mdaemon, and most of those installations just simply work.  In many cases the problem can be resolved simply by getting someone to look at the Mdaemon real-time status screen and read out a few of the low-level transactions.

moorhouselondon ,  U expressed my thoughts better than I could do it ! THANKS.
At last ! Yes it is true... We need something that WE IT people can understand !!!
Can any IT , ANY IT explain or even try to understand what is in that HUGE file .edb that if got corrupted
would be a nightmare ?
thanks a lot.
I think I have made up my mind.
I do understand that MDaemon is by no means perfect either... but at least it is more "human" !

Just in case anyone wants to have a bit of a read there is info on ESE architecture: -

Extensible Storage Engine Architecture
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa998171(EXCHG.65).aspx

HI all

what about EDB, that is running with a great engen that make accessing the Email MUCH Faster than working with the harddisk that can get fragment and also slower, slower

Did I hear EDB Corrution ?, did you ask your self about WHY MY EDB SHOULD GET CORRUPTED ?, I have Exchange Server running for more than 5 years with 50GB of imformation store, and it wont get crashed, this is a normal result for a good exchange administrating, what easier it going to be to install an Antivirus for exchange, and running a backup

tell me, what will crash your EDB, give me a single resone, search the Exper-exchange for exchange problem about 80% will have there Exchange Failed cause of hardware failure about 20% due to virus and other also hardware problem

I had an Exchange server got corrupted once, yes, and that was due to the BAD RIAD system,

listen, Exchange server is an Enterprise solution, you can not run exchange server 2007 for example on a PC, if your company is poor and dont have the ability to buy a Server like Dell 2900III then you may face a problem in it, and the problem is Exchange Server Need RAM, need a good Server to run it, if your server is a normal PC with good hardware then go to MDaemon,

Again:

*****************************************
Can any IT , ANY IT explain or even try to understand what is in that HUGE file .edb that if got corrupted
would be a nightmare ?
***********************************************

Yes I can , Simply restore your EDB, from your backup, is there any easier ?

now let me ask you the same Q regarding to Mdaemon
what are you going to do if you have a virus that write a signature in each .eml,.msg or any text file like "YOU HAVE BEEN HACKED ?"
There is such a virus.

Again and again, Exchange WONT AND WILL NEVER got corrupted, if you administer it fine

All my exchange servers are set to export (using exmerge) every mailbox to a pst file every day.

I do this because I think it will give me more DR options.

why to do this, there is an offline copy on the user client, so why you are having an PST export

bevhost, the pb is that the pst gets very large... over the 2GB limit of exmerge....he he he...and big problem...

I have seen more cases of hard drives going down than I have of viruses that target msg files, which is not to say that I am complacent to the dangers of such threats.  Housammuhanna's comment about the inefficiency of access to files using Mdaemon means it might take some time to wipe out the message store (that sentence is not meant to be taken seriously btw).

Hard drives can develop some very weird problems when they start to go down, and looking at mass2612's extremely informative link, it strikes me that any corruption could have a devastating effect on the ability to query the mailstore.  Who has seen the film "The Fly"?  I think the analogy is perfect, the merest hint of corruption and the result is pretty gruesome.  So, yes, a backup of the mailstore is absolutely vital with regard to Exchange, or doing what bevhost suggests, taking an exmerge, but as ammounpierre points out, pst's are easily corrupted (even before they get to the limit).  There seems to be some controversy about the 2Gb limit.  (Typical MS FUD'ery) Regardless of where the limit is, there is a limit.  Have Microsoft finally got round to putting Bounds Checking in place?  Dunno until people start hitting that limit.  Cos you know this much: It is when you come to restore a pst, that is when you find it is corrupt, not when you save it..  Shunting massive pst's around can be very time-consuming as well, and of course they don't use the advanced data structure that the mail-store is built on.

Let me now focus on backups a bit more.  Does anyone here use a standard product to backup their mail-store?  If your Mail Server were to bite the dust tomorrow morning, how soon could you be back up and running again?  Would you have a spare server knocking around?  Would that Server be having all the up-to-date patches etc. on it, or would they need to be loaded up?  Spare backup drive (whatever technology you use)?  How easy is it to reinstall the backup software onto the Server to set the restore in motion.  Do you think that by 17:00 hours Thursday 18th September 2008 you will be able to have everything up and working and you'd be off down the pub?  I have had to do this a few times in my career, and that is the point that  you know for certain you have chosen a prudent solution for that particular client.

I didn't mention:-
we have a 1.8GB mailbox size limit,  
Not all users have the local copy turned on.
At one site we use a rdiff backup that copies the export offsite
rdiff is wonderful because it only copies the changes.

I haven't looked into this much, but from what I've seen, Mdaemon would probably suit my backup system better.
The rdiff has less work to do when it doesn't have to work out differences in massive files, just copy new ones.

I think what I'm doing here is fairly unique, as I run the backups from linux servers all controlled by a package called safekeep.

INFO: StartTime 1221674549.00 (Thu Sep 18 04:02:29 2008)
INFO: EndTime 1221675290.53 (Thu Sep 18 04:14:50 2008)
INFO: ElapsedTime 741.53 (12 minutes 21.53 seconds)
INFO: SourceFiles 210539
INFO: SourceFileSize 93108923340 (86.7 GB)
INFO: MirrorFiles 211564
INFO: MirrorFileSize 93248022763 (86.8 GB)
INFO: NewFiles 347
INFO: NewFileSize 226665104 (216 MB)
INFO: DeletedFiles 1372
INFO: DeletedFileSize 366393640 (349 MB)
INFO: ChangedFiles 703
INFO: ChangedSourceSize 95361848 (90.9 MB)
INFO: ChangedMirrorSize 94732735 (90.3 MB)
INFO: IncrementFiles 2433
INFO: IncrementFileSize 78690169 (75.0 MB)
INFO: TotalDestinationSizeChange -60409254 (-57.6 MB)
                                              

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moorhouselondon , U hit the real issue here.
what about restoration of data ?
I do not want to appear (and it is not true) that I "hate" exchange Server.It is a good product..
but the thing is that restoration of data is very painful. Please nobody tell me otherwise...
If U come one morning and the ESE store doesnt start...U R in trouble.
reason ? frankly I dont care. It could be virus/hardware /hdd anything..
My task would be to restore the system status.
and please do NOT tell me that Exchange is easy at that.
I tried MS backup - a standby server - MailArchive - All is nonesense...
If ESE doesnt start... U should then start praying...
and That I am not talking about data corruption...

I think that here MDaemon beats the hell out of Exchange. Right ?


bevhost , what is exactly rdif ? I havent heard of it...

> bevhost , what is exactly rdif ? I havent heard of it...

See:
http://rdiff-backup.nongnu.org/

See also:
http://safekeep.sourceforge.net/
safekeep make rdiff-backup easier to use.

ammounpierre: let me tell you something

its really correct to have your system recoverd maybe much faster when working with MDaemon more than Exchange Server , as its a file copy and nothing more.

But for me, and in several company I face an exchange database failure, and the only thing I have to do is just to restore the database, and then use ESEUTIL to start the database, why do you think that restoring Exchange is a nightmare ??!!??

But again let me remind you that Accessing the Email using Exchange is MUCH Faster than MDaemon, and the options for exchange is much more than MDaemin, like OAB, OMA, Active Sync With Exchange you can get your Email in what ever the way you have,(Maybe in the future it will include getting your Email while Dearming !!)

Housammuhanna , I do understand what u are saying and I agree that Exchange Server is wayyyy bigger and more powerfull than MDaemon.
my point is that for small-medium companies that have around 20 -40 employees and do not have an IT full time , MDaemon is more than enough !!!

in this point and for small network, I totally Agree, and also its better for company that wont pay for such a price for exchange

It is q's like these (just a random one I picked) that worry me deeply about Exchange.  I see you are on the case Housammuhanna!

http://www.experts-exchange.com/OS/Microsoft_Operating_Systems/Server/SBS_Small_Business_Server/Q_23749212.html?cid=358

LOOOOOOOOL

Yes,

again dont worry about exchange, we dont know what this user do (Maybe a virus start to send a local Emails with a less Exchange security), or a disk corruption happend

that mean that if this user maybe using MDaemon they may face another problem

When the Disaster is going to happend, it wont ask what is the software you are using ( like a visus attack, or bad disk)

I understand your fear about exchange, but all these problem for exchange you are talking about ,why you think that I am still thinking that exchange is the best?
This is because as I said , exchange is a server software, need a good server, and NEED a good managment

and what about the pick, this is because there is no forums here about MDaemon,

Let me tell you something, and you should be able to asnwer, can you answer the Q on the link you post here.

you think its an Exchange problem you have that is 25 Suddenly reach to 95GB on a system that MS dont allow it to reach this size..

I have sometme where a single file on my bad Flash disk (1GB) reach to be 3 GB

how do you think this file turn to be 3 GB in a flash disk that is 1GB

This is Disk problem

First off, you'd better re-post your Comment in the asker's new Q!

http://www.experts-exchange.com/OS/Microsoft_Operating_Systems/Server/SBS_Small_Business_Server/Q_23749547.html

Second, check out TechSoEasy's response to the question.  This guy knows a thing or two about Exchange.  Check out his Profile here

http://www.experts-exchange.com/M_3383094.html

As you can see, he is a Genius in SBS, and has all sorts of other MS experience.  But his response to the Q?  "I've seen this happen before... but have never understood why it does happen."  A very honest response, and good timing for me to make a point!

I think many people recommend Exchange because they can see the $$$'s that can be made from recommending it.  In this business, one size does not fit all, and that is a fundamental mistake to assert that it does.  "Small Business Server" is not exactly the most accurate description of one of their products I have seen.

>it wont ask what is the software you are using

That comment was so amusing btw!

>no forums here about MDaemon

Indeed, this is odd.  What does this mean?  What indeed are the possibilities?

Either nobody is using the software - which is just impossible or...  Well, the tech support staff at Zen Software (the UK distributors) are always so helpful whenever I have a question (note the word question, not problem), that I've not had to resort to asking anything on EE.  I can't remember the last time I needed to speak to them even...  I remember... a client had a green Mdaemon icon in the Systray, I think that was it.

HI

I Just wonder why you are talking about MDAEMON as its 100% Error Free and it has no problem, I understand your network is using this software and it working fine, this is for the first part NOT because MD is 100% perfect, but for the first step cause of a good administrating,, Why all the Exchange server I had worked with are just runing Perfect, I have no problem in any , We in other company has really face some problem in exchange, and other reason are sometime it come for replication, MD is 100% has less problems as its working on  standerd protocols like POP3 and SMTP, and its not integrated with AD that mean NO OAB and its problem, its not integrated with AD that also mean No problem about BAD replication setup, and how care about it if it not working fine, regarding to message routing,

YOu maybe able to use this software as a small network email system, but you can not use it as a enterprise software that have several brunches

OK, I can offer you a final result for this talk,
1- MDAEMON Can not match Exchange.
2- Exchange Is MUCH faster in mail access than MD, as its using a engine for getting and reading the Email, unlike MD that depend on the speed of the harddisk, if just can not imagen how MD is going to work when total mailbox reach 10 GB or more, the HDD will be just crazy.
What I really dont like in the other Mailing system that it can not be used as a primary system, as when the data grow the access time will be the first thing the user will notice, I WOULD use other Email software when the network us smal, like 3 to 20 user, no problem about MD
3-Managing POP3 and IMAP Client will take MUCH time more than managing MAPI client
4- Features that are in Exchange that make it a real Corp. Email software not exist in MD

and BTW, if there was for MDaemon a section here, Make sure that there will be alot of people had post the problem and errors on it

Comparing between MD and Exchange like the Compare between opera and internet explorer

Opera is 1% and almost the reset for internet explorer

On the other hand if I don't have a big server with RAID and lot's of UPS, and the power fails while the server is writing an email to disk, I'd rather loose the one email than corrupt the big database file that I have no idea how to repair.

I do vouch for creating an MDaemon section here.
who's in ?

HI bevhost

what about Losing a file or a database

who say that you will lose the database, you will lose a page only from the exchange database, and exchange will recover it self

one other thing that is greate about exchange 2003 SP2 is that it can recover it self when the disk is bad, and will show in eventlog that there is an error in the disk,

so you may lose nothing

I've just done a google search with the terms:-

exchange corruption

Sheesh, hope I don't get nightmares tonight after reading some of those stories ... I think I will stick with Mdaemon.  

Yes, it would be really good to have an mdaemon section here.  I would bookmark it immediately.

Hi

The very simple answer for this is

Exchange server is widly used more than MD, anyway you may search for Exchange Corruption, that is yes, I also try this and I got the result number 11,800,000 , but this mean that in the page there is both word Exchange and corruption, maybe something like:

---------------------
policies of agencies in the fight against corruption. Publishing your information ETICO information exchange platform invites you to publish your
-------------------------

See in this site there is both work Exchange and Corruption

anyway, if you change the keywork to be "Exchange Corruption" the result number will be only about 1000 result

and this is normal to see such a result, as its mostly used more than MD

Here is some thing about your TOP SECURE GREATE SOFTWAE

http://www.securityspace.com/smysecure/catid.html?id=10136

http://www.vulnerabilityscanning.com/MDaemon-crash-Test_10136.htm

http://www.networkscanning.com/MDaemon-crash-VSS_10136.html

and this one on EE having a problem, and no one answer him. I think that if he has exchange, there will be a lot of replys

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Software/Server_Software/Email_Servers/Q_23724853.html

EVERYONE, Exchange DATABASE FIX IS NOT A NIGHTMARE, ITS EASY JUST USE ESEUTIL AND YOU WILL HAVE IT RUNNING

Today I had a lab for exchange server that is totally distroyed and replaced with another server, simply name the server with the same name and reinstall exchange using Disasterrecovery

and thats it

I HOPE OTHER MEMEBER WILL POST THERE COMMENT HERE SO WE CAN HEAR ANOTHER THOUGH

Thanks for the link - I have responded to their Q.

There are currently 4738 questions in Exchange waiting to be closed off, of which 3489 are over a month old.

I think you will find that there are a lot more sitting in places like Outlook.  People who think they have an Outlook problem, but they are hooking into an Exchange Server.  

Good for you to help
I understand that you really dont like exchange cause of its problem

Lets me tell you something, for me, I enjoy alot while trying to solve exchange problem, its like my coffe cup at the morning, just like to open and see who have problem and help. Exchange have problems as the same as MD  as no program is complete, and as you see there is in the last post i place that MD has also problem your should care about it

Dont be a frid of Exchange, deal with it correct and it will live for ever and you will have a MUCH faster access and Email system

Hope this is clear

so how do we open the MDaemon section in EE ?