Question

What is the difference between UTC and GMT???

Asked by: fklein23

I have two supposedly identical Linux builds based on

# uname -a
Linux localhost.localdomain 2.6.20-1.2320.fc5 #1 Tue Jun 12 18:50:38 EDT 2007 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux

They both have their ntp servers synched to Greenwich time and in the ntp tab of the Date and Time admin menu has the "uses UTC Time". They are synched (as are all the computers in our local domain)  to an atomic-clock derived ntp server.
But one says:
#date
Mon Dec 29 20:47:27 UTC 2008
and the other says:
#date
Mon Dec 29 20:47:27 GMT 2008

I wouldn't be concerned about this, but when I synchronize files between the two systems, I end up with clock skew problems when building on the GMT box until I touch every file that has been changed recently.

Any ideas????

This Question has been solved and asker verified All Experts Exchange premium technology solutions are available to subscription members.

Subscribe now for full access to Experts Exchange and get

Instant Access to this Solution

  • Plus...
  • 30 Day FREE access, no risk, no obligation
  • Collaborate with the world's top tech experts
  • Unlimited access to our exclusive solution database
  • Never be left without tech help again

Subscribe Now

Asked On
2008-12-29 at 12:55:33ID24014074
Tags

Fedora Linux GMT UTC

Topics

Samba File Server

,

Linux Administration

,

Fedora Linux

Participating Experts
3
Points
500
Comments
9

Trusted by hundreds of thousands everyday for fast, accurate and reliable tech support.

  • "The time we save is the biggest benefit of Experts Exchange to Warner Bros. What could take multiple guys 2 hours or more each to find is accessed in around 15 minutes on Experts Exchange." Mike Kapnisakis, Warner Bros.
  • "Our team likes having a resource that is more secure than just using Google and most experts using this service really know their stuff. It's nice to look here first versus using Google." Dayna Sellner, Lockheed Martin
  • "Anytime that I've been stumped with a problem, 9 out of 10 times Experts Exchange has either the accepted solution or an open discussion of the potential solution to the problem." Kenny Red, eBay Inc.

See what Experts Exchange can do for you.

Got a question?

We've got the answer.

Experts Exchange has been collecting answers to technology questions since 1996…3 million and counting! If you have a question, chances are we already have your answer.

Screenshot of Experts Exchange Knowledgebase

Need individual assistance?

Our experts are ready to help.

If you can't find the exact answer you're looking for, ask our exclusive community of 50,000 experts. You’ll get a personalized answer from a trusted professional.

Screenshot of Experts Exchange Knowledgebase

Want to learn from the best?

Read articles from industry experts.

Thousands of free tech tips, tricks, how-to’s and tutorials are available in our peer reviewed articles section. See for yourself how smart our experts are, no login required.

Screenshot of an Article

Working on a long term project?

Store your work and research.

Save solutions to your questions, answers you’ve discovered through searching plus helpful articles in your personal knowledgebase for easy future access.

Screenshot of Experts Exchange Knowledgebase

Access the answers to your technology questions today.

Subscribe Now

30-day free trial. Register in 60 seconds.

What Makes Experts Exchange Unique?

Members of the expert community talk about why the experience at Experts Exchange is different than what you will find anywhere else.

Trusted by the world's most respected brands.

image of each brand's logo

Faithfully serving IT professionals since 1996.

Experts Exchange Logo

Try it out and discover for yourself.

Subscribe Now

30-day free trial. Register in 60 seconds.

Related Solutions

  1. converting back from UTC / GMT date
    I'm having to design a database solution where I will track some things shipped and confirmed over various time zone's for USA, Canada and Mexico It seems like the best solution is to convert every date/time to UTC time, then store the UTC date and the original TimeZone in tw...
  2. UTC/GMT To Local Time
    Hello: I have not found a suitable answer to this question, which has got to be a popular need. I searched Google, Experts Exchange, Answers.com, and I'm getting a little frustrated at this point... Here is the problem: 1) I have stored UTC (GMT) dates (date/time) values in...
  3. Convert given date (from known timezone) to GMT/UTC.
    I have a server running in GMT/UTC (no daylight saving). All data is to be stored with GMT date/timestamps. I now have a problem because some data is being posted with a date/timestamp in CET (CET is either GMT+1 or GMT+2 depending on DLS). So I need to find a way to conv...
  4. GMT/UTC
    when viewing a table in SQL Express 2005 the date column of a particular table is not showing the local time. I am guessing this is the GMT or UTC time but just wanted to make sure. The data I am viewing is coming from MS Live Communications Server 2005. Would it be stan...
  5. ASP.NET 2.0 Membership LastLoginDate time is GMT alt…
    For the life of me I can not figure out why the datetime values saved by the ASP.NET Membership are always in GMT when my server is clearly set for EDT nor can I find a way to change this!

Free Tech Articles

  1. WARNING: 5 Reasons why you should NEVER fix a computer for free.
    It is in our nature to love the puzzle. We are obsessed. The lot of us. We love puzzles. We love the challenge. We thrive on finding the answer. We hate disarray. It bothers us deep in our soul. W...
  2. SCCM OSD Basic troubleshooting
    SCCM 2007 OSD is a fantastic way to deploy operating systems, however, like most things SCCM issues can sometimes be difficult to resolve due to the sheer volume of logs to sift through and the dispe...
  3. Migrate Small Business Server 2003 to Exchange 2010 and Windows 2008 R2
    This guide is intended to provide step by step instructions on how to migrate from Small Business Server 2003 to Windows 2008 R2 with Exchange 2010. For this migration to work you will need the fo...
  4. Create a Win7 Gadget
    This article shows you how to create a simple "Gadget" -- a sort of mini-application supported by Windows 7 and Vista. Gadgets can be dropped anywhere on the desktop to provide instant information, ...
  5. Outlook continually prompting for username and password
    There have been a lot of questions recently regarding Outlook prompting for a username and password whilst using Exchange 2007. There are a few reasons why this would happen and I will try to cover t...
  6. Backup Exchange 2010 Information Store using Windows Backup
    There seems to be quite a lot of confusion around the ability to backup Exchange 2010 using the built in Windows Backup feature. This stems from the omission of this feature prior to Exchange 2007 s...

Cloud Class Webinars

  1. Avoiding Bugs in Microsoft Access
    Alison Balter takes and in-depth look at avoiding bugs in Access. In this webinar you will learn about using the immediate window to debug your applications, invoking the debugger, using breakpoints to troubleshoot, stepping through code, setting the next statement to execute, ...
  2. Top 10 Best New Features in Visio 2010
    Scott Helmers gives live demonstrations of the top 10 new features in Visio 2010. This webinar will teach you how to create compelling diagrams by adding shapes to the page with a single click, linking the shapes in a diagram to data in Excel (or SQL Server, or SharePoint), ...
  3. IT Consultant Business Secrets Revealed
    Michael Munger, Experts Exchange tech pro and IT consultant, pulls back the curtain on his very successful businesses and answers question on every IT consultant and business owner should know about. He shares secrets on what he did to solve the 5 most common problems in IT, ...
  4. Disaster Recovery and Business Continuity
    Quest CTO, Mike Billon, gives an overview of the steps involved in building a dunamic disaster recovery plan. Through case studies and an examination of software/hardware tooles for monitoring and testing, you'll gain a better understandin of where you are, where you want ...
  5. Organize Your Visio Diagrams with Containers and Lists
    Scott Helmers uses cross functional flowcharts, wireframe diagrams, data graphic legends and seating charts to teach you: how to ustilize all three new structured diagram components in Visio 2010, the best practices for organizeing shapes in previous version of Visio, how to organize ...
  6. How to Us Objects, Properties, Events and Methods in Microsoft Access
    Alison Dalter gives an in-depbth look at objects, properties, events and methods in Microsoft Access. In this webinar you will learn about using the object browser, referring to objects, working with properties and methods, working with object variables, understanding the ...

Join the Community

Give a Little. Get a Lot.

Join the community of experts here and help other tech pros by answering question in your area of expertise. You can earn FREE access to all Experts Exchange's premium features and resources.

Join the Community

Answers

 

by: TintinPosted on 2008-12-29 at 13:03:50ID: 23258700

Greenwich Mean Time
-------------------

o Greenwich Mean Time is a time scale based on the apparent motion of
the "mean" sun with respect to the meridian through the Old Greenwich
Observatory (zero degrees longitude). The "mean" sun is used because
time based on the actual or true apparent motion of the sun doesn't
"tick" at a constant rate. The earth's orbit is slightly eccentric
and the plane of the earth's orbit is inclined with respect to the
equator (about 23-1/2 degrees) hence at different times of the year
the sun appears to move faster or slower in the sky. That's why an
uncorrected sundial can be "wrong" (if it is supposed to be telling
mean time) by up to 16 minutes. So if the mean (i.e. corrected) sun
is directly over the meridian through Greenwich, it is exactly 12 noon
GMT or 12:00 GMT (Prior to 1925, astronomers reckoned mean solar time
from noon so that when the mean sun was on the meridian, it was
actually 00:00 GMT. This practice arose so that astronomers wouldn't
have a change in date during a night's observing. Some in the
astronomical community still use the pre-1925 definition of GMT in the
analysis of old data although it is recommended that the term
Greenwich Mean Astronomical Time now be used to refer to time reckoned
from noon.)

o Mean time on selected meridians 15 degrees apart is generally known as
standard time. For example, Eastern Standard Time (EST) is the mean
solar time of the meridian at 75 degrees W.


Universal Time
--------------

o In 1928, the International Astronomical Union recommended that the
time used in the compilation of astronomical almanacs, essentially
GMT, or what was also sometimes called Greenwich Civil Time, be
referred to as Universal Time (UT). The terms "Universal Time" and
"Universal Day" were introduced at the various conferences in the
1800's held to set up the standard time system.

o There are actually a couple of variants of UT. UT as determined by
actual astronomical observations at a particular observatory is known
as UT0 ("UT-zero"). It is affected by the motion of the earth's
rotation pole with respect to the crust of the earth. If UT0 is
corrected for this effect, we get UT1 which is a measure of the true
angular orientation of the earth in space. However, because the earth
does not spin at exactly a constant rate, UT1 is not a uniform time
scale. The variation in UT1 is dominated by seasonal oscillations due
primarily to the exchange of angular momentum between the atmosphere
and the solid earth and seasonal tides. In an effort to derive a more
uniform time scale, scientists established UT2. UT2 is obtained from
UT1 by applying an adopted formula that approximates the seasonal
oscillations in the earth's rotation. However, due to other
variations including those associated with the secular effects of
tidal friction (the earth's spin is continually but gradually slowing
down), high frequency tides and winds, and the exchange of angular
momentum between the earth's core and its shell, UT2 is also not a
uniform time scale.

o So rather than base our civil time keeping on the rotation of the
earth we now use Atomic Time, time based on the extremely constant
frequency of a radio emission from cesium atoms when they change
between two particular energy states. The unit of Atomic Time is the
atomic second. 86,400 atomic seconds define the length of a nominal
"reference" day -- the length of the day as given by the earth's
rotation around the year 1900. But because of the variations in the
earth's spin the length of the actual day can be shorter or longer
than the nominal day of 86,400 seconds. The time scale based on the
atomic second but corrected every now and again to keep it in
approximate sync with the earth's rotation is known as UTC or
Coordinated Universal Time. The corrections show up as the leap
seconds put into UTC from time to time - usually on New Year's Eve.
With these leap second adjustments, UTC is kept within 0.9 seconds of
UT1. Currently, the need for leap seconds is primarily due to the
effects of tidal friction. The earth's rotation in space is monitored
by the International Earth Rotation Service (IERS) in Paris, France,
using a global network of satellite and lunar laser ranging, very long
baseline interferometry, and Navstar Global Positioning System (GPS)
stations. The IERS, in consultation with the Bureau International des
Poids et Mesures in Sèvres, France, determine when a leap second is
needed.

o In 1928, when the term Universal Time was introduced, variations in
the earth's spin were not yet known. So the term GMT was, in essence,
replaced by UT1. Despite the official adoption of the term UT, the
navigational publications of English-speaking countries retained the
term GMT as a synonym for UT1 for some time. So, even today, in
astronavigation, GMT can imply UT1. But in general usage (including
that of shortwave broadcasters such as the BBC, for example), GMT now
usually means the civil (atomic-second-based) time kept in the United
Kingdom which is the standard time of the time zone centred on the 0
degree meridian. In this (the most common) usage, the terms GMT and
UTC are identical. But because there are two possible meanings for
GMT differing by up to 0.9 seconds, the term GMT should not be used
for precise purposes -- particularly not in reference to GPS
observations!

The Origin of UTC
-----------------
o The concept of a coordinated universal time was introduced in 1960
when the British and American national time services initiated a
program to coordinate the offsets of the frequencies and epochs
(phases) of transmitted time service radio signals from Atomic Time in
approximating UT2. Subsequently, other national time services joined
the program. The BIH was charged with the task of monitoring and
maintaining the program and introduced the term Temps Universel
Coordinné or Coordinated Universal Time for the coordinated time scale
in 1964. Initially, the time scale was derived by offsetting its rate
from that of Atomic Time to agree with the average rate of UT2 over
the past year and was held fixed at that rate for the following year.
If the rate of UT2 changed significantly during the year, then an
offset (from 1962, in multiples of 100 milliseconds) could be
introduced on the first day of a month. This system of frequency and
epoch offsets was continued until 1972 when the current practice was
adopted of keeping the rate of UTC equal to that of Atomic Time and
introducing leap seconds when needed to keep UTC to within 0.9 seconds
(it was 0.7 seconds until January 1975) of UT1.

o Sometimes the term "World Time" is used to denote UTC. This strange
and potentially confusing term ("UTC for dummies"?) should be avoided.
Similarly, there is no clear need for the Swatch watch company's
recently introduced "Internet Time" (Central European Time measured in
1/1000 of a day (a "beat")).

 

by: enrique_salazarPosted on 2008-12-29 at 13:29:43ID: 23258888

In casual use, Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) is the same as UTC and UT1. Owing to the ambiguity of whether UTC or UT1 is meant, and because timekeeping laws usually refer to UTC, GMT is avoided in careful writing. So, check your GMT Linux box and change it to UTC.










Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) is a term originally referring to mean solar time at the Royal Observatory, Greenwich where a system was first developed around 1850 for tracking time based on the rotation of the Earth. It is now often used to refer to Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) when this is viewed as a time zone.

Strictly speaking, UTC is not a time zone but an atomic time scale which only approximates GMT in the old sense. It is also used to refer to Universal Time (UT), which is the astronomical concept that directly replaced the original GMT.

In 1970 the Coordinated Universal Time system was devised by an international advisory group of technical experts within the International Telecommunication Union (ITU). Coordinated Universal Time (UTC,--Fr. Temps Universel Coordonné) is International Atomic Time (TAI) with leap seconds added at irregular intervals to compensate for the Earth's slowing rotation. Leap seconds are used to allow UTC to closely track UT1, which is mean solar time at the Royal Observatory, Greenwich.

The ITU felt it was best to designate a single abbreviation for use in all languages in order to minimize confusion. Since unanimous agreement could not be achieved on using either the English word order, CUT (coordinated universal time), or the French word order, TUC (temps universel coordonné), the acronym UTC was chosen as a compromise.

The difference between UTC and UT1 cannot exceed 0.9 s, so if high precision is not required the general term Universal Time (UT) (without a suffix) may be used.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/GMT_vs_UTC

 

by: fklein23Posted on 2008-12-29 at 14:04:13ID: 23259118

Gentlemen: Thanks for all the erudite information about UTC and GMT. I actually knew that stuff.
I wasn't really looking for this level of definition of the concepts of UTC and GMT, I just wondered why two Linux installs which were both set up exactly the same way, through the Linux Date and Time Admin menus. I have looked at the two Linux boxes and cannot see any difference. Why is one labelling its time UTC and the other GMT?
Thanks - Frank

 

by: TintinPosted on 2008-12-29 at 14:24:27ID: 23259230

Check the contents of /etc/sysconfig/clock on both servers.

 

by: enrique_salazarPosted on 2008-12-30 at 05:23:12ID: 23262249

Erase any clockmode line if any, this is deprecated. Stick with the UTC=TRUE or YES.


http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Reference_Guide/s2-sysconfig-clock.html

 

by: fklein23Posted on 2008-12-30 at 08:30:51ID: 23263708

Thanks, enrique and Tintin.

It seems we may be on the right track here. No solution yet, but...

I looked at the /etc/sysconfig/clock file in two Linux boxes,

In the "good" system:

# The ZONE parameter is only evaluated by system-config-date.
# The timezone of the system is defined by the contents of /etc/localtime.
ZONE="Etc/UTC"
UTC=true
ARC=false

This one respnds like this:
#date
Tue Dec 30 16:07:40 UTC 2008


In the "bad" system:

# The ZONE parameter is only evaluated by system-config-date.
# The timezone of the system is defined by the contents of /etc/localtime.
ZONE="Europe/London"
UTC=true
ARC=false

Whereas this one responds like this:
Tue Dec 30 16:08:20 GMT 2008

Neither one has the deprecated configuration "CLOCKMODE=GMT"

So it seems that 'ZONE="Etc/UTC"' is the preferred configuration.

And it appears that the localtime file is a copy of the UTC file on one system and a copy of the GB file in the other case.

So I tried changing the /etc/sysconfig/clock file  on the GMT system to 'ZONE="Etc/UTC"' and I re-sourced rc.local and restarted the ntpd service. This one STILL responds like this:

#date
Tue Dec 30 16:23:16 GMT 2008

So I still don't know how to get it to respond with
Tue Dec 30 16:23:16 UTC 2008
instead.

I even rebooted the system and it still responds with GMT.

Any idea what configuration file REALLY controls this????

Thanks - Frank

 

by: enrique_salazarPosted on 2008-12-30 at 14:16:54ID: 23266649

 

by: smootcmPosted on 2009-01-09 at 15:03:09ID: 23341185

It appears the zone information is different between UTC and GMT. Most likely this is the name of the timezone.  I suggest you change the the /etc/localtime to point to the UTC tz information file.  Those are usually in /usr/share/zoneinfo.  You can create a symlink  for /etc/localtime to the correct zone information file and the time display should change.

This does not really change your clock skew issue, since Unix/.Linux systems record timestamps in seconds since midnight Dec 31, 1969.

 

by: fklein23Posted on 2009-01-20 at 09:43:06ID: 31536809

Thanks. No one suggestion was the silver bullet but the information was very useful. TinTin went a little overboard actually defining the difference, but that was OK.

The final solution was extremely easy. First, I never noticed before, but down at the bottom of the list of timezones in the Gnome Desktop: System->Admin->Date&Time menu there is a heading called "Non-geographic Time Zones".

Once I selected that, date started showing time as UTC. Previously I selected London Time and clicked on the "Use UTC Time" check box. That apparently isn't good enough. I haven't been able to figure out the difference between these two approaches, both result in to =
/etc/sysconfig/clock looking exactly like this:

ZONE="Etc/UTC"
UTC=true
ARC=false

It would be nice know why I have resort to the desktop to achieve this, seems like the command line and various time realted scripts ought to tell the whole story, but what do I know?!?!

My clock skew problem resulted from my ntp client QUIETLY not working because my router table didn't include a default  line for localdomain. This seemed to block our ability to access the ntp server.  Once we added that to the router table, the ntp service resumed and that system's clock skew problem went away.

Thanks for all your input.

20120131-EE-VQP-002

3 Ways to Join

30-Day Free Trial

The Experts

98% positive feedback on 31,087 answers since March 2000. angeliii is a Microsoft Most Valuable Professional for his work with MS SQL Server & Develoment.

He has also proven his knowledge of Visual Basic Programming, PHP Scripting and Oracle Databases.

The Experts

97% positive feedback on 10,752 answers since July 2000. lrmoore has more than 18 years experience in the networking industry.

The six-time Mircosoft MVPs specialties include firewalls, virtual private networking, and network management.

Testimonials

"...and excellent source for support... Kind of like having your very own IT dept." Electriciansnet

Testimonials

"I was apprehensive at signing up at first. However... it has already made my life as an IT administrator much easier." JaCrews

Testimonials

"WOW! You guys have great, active, and knowledgeable people on here." moore50

Business Clients

Business Clients

In the Press

"If you’ve got a question... Experts Exchange can supply an answer.”

In the Press

"...an invaluable aid for both IT professionals and those who require tech support."

In the Press

"where IT professionals provide quick answers on just about any topic"

Business Account Plans

Loading Advertisement...