Question

Citrix Xenapp Platinum Edition Farm Design

Asked by: mpopal

I have a project where I have to design a new Citrix Farm for 1000 users. All 1000 users will access this environment from the Internet. Approximiately 10 applications will be published. The Citrix version I will be using is Xenapp 4.5 Platinum edition and it will go on Windows 2003 enterprise server.

The Citrix Xenapp Platinum edition comes with presentation server, provisioning server, edge site, and I think a couple of other items. I'm also going to implement the secure access gateway appliance.

I will be building this environment on a 10-blade Dell chassis system that will house 10 Dell 1955 blades all with 16GB of RAM, and 120 GB of disk space (Non SAN).

I have to use all 10 blades for this project so what would be the best practices recommendation for designing this environment?

I'm familiar with CItrix PS 4 and earlier, but not familiar at all with Xenapp 4.5 Platinum.  So with that said, how would you go about designing this environment? I hear streaming is something new so how many streaming servers would you build? How many presentation servers? Where would you put edge site? What about provision server? I don't have any SQL or Oracle servers so do you think I should build a DB server or just use SQL lite?

Thanks.

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Asked On
2009-08-27 at 07:54:50ID24686845
Topics

Citrix

,

XenServer

Participating Experts
5
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500
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Answers

 

by: BLipmanPosted on 2009-08-27 at 08:36:25ID: 25199432

One issue you will face is using all of that RAM per server.  You can go x64 on the OS to make use of 4+ GB but then you have to make sure your applications and print drivers are ok with 64 bit.  Your other good option would be virtualization; you can make most of those blades VMs with 4GB RAM and dual processors.  I would then use core affinity and fixed memory reservations to guarantee performance but you could easily pack 4 VM servers per host.  I would have redundant Web Interface servers, redundant STA servers (one of which can be your data collector).  I would use SQL Workgroup Edition at a minimum just so you can schedule DB maintenance but SQL Express is fine if you are comfortable doing backups and optimizations by hand.  
I don't know anything about your application though so truely accurate recommendations would take into account how dense you can pack users onto a terminal server and how best to tune them.  Not knowing this I can generalize but you really have some testing to do!  If you took 8 VM servers running ESXi (for example), make 4 Citrix guests per VM, that gives you 32 servers for applications.  If your 1000 users are concurrent you are still under 35 users per server which should be comfortable for most applications on a well configured system.  Obviously 35 instances of a CAD program vs 35 notepad uses make a night and day difference for server architecture.  

 

by: cnjugunaPosted on 2009-08-27 at 08:36:40ID: 25199438

Hi mpopal,

I use Citrix XenApp 4.5 but in a much smaller environment. 1 server farm with 2 servers running W2K3 standard.

Application streaming is one of the strengths of XenApp 4.5 but it also depends on the applications you have and how they are accessed. Streaming may not be the best option depending on how your applications run. EG. if your apps will need to access resources on your LAN stream to client may not be the best option. You can even have apps streamed to clients that are available when disconnected from your servers. You would also need to consider your bandwidth since the apps will be accessed over the internet.

You can have applications streamed to the client so that the application files are copied to the client computer. You can have them streamed to server where only a small subset are copied to the client and the rest are installed on the servers. You can also as usual just present a desktop to the users and have the application run totally on the servers.

You can choose to have the applications installed on the servers though I prefer to use profiled apps myself. I find the profiles easier to deal with and you can play around more with them, avoid application clashes, use application isolation, etc. With stream to server you can choose to have the applications stream to all servers in the farm or dedicate certain servers to certain apps.

Another thing which I think I should mention because I got it wrong at first - when an app is set to stream to multiple servers, users apps are streamed to run on individual servers in a round-robin fashion dynamically - not that each user's app will be distributed across chosen servers. So with 1000 users logged on to an app streamed to 5 servers, each server will handle 200 users.

I would suggest dedicating 1 server to licensing, at least 1 as a configuration server with another doubling as a backup configuration server, and the rest as presentation servers.

Unfortunately, I haven't worked with Edgesite, Provisioning server or the other goodies.

In the end, to have your farm(s) running smoothly and to be able to troubleshoot and develop in the future, I recommend a real study of the many docs that Citrix offers with the software. I think it is essential to understand the system as much as possible *before* you start. I tried setting up without reading and though I got it to run, I couldn't understand certain behaviours (and this is only 2 servers) - a nightmare to say the least. No fun reading when the phones are ringing ;)

Hope this helps. All the best

 

by: CarlWebsterPosted on 2009-08-27 at 08:37:35ID: 25199452

Keep it simple.

One Farm
One Zone
For 1000 users I would recommend a dedicated Zone Data Collector (XA installed but no apps installed)
If you want to use App streaming, you should only need 1 streaming server
You could also use the dedicated Zone Data Collector server as your Citrix License Server
For 1000 users I would recommend a SQL Server

You really wouldn't even have to use your nice blade servers for the ZDC or LS.  I would recommend also putting the Web Interface on another non-blade box.  Neither server will reqquire much in the way of ram or processing power.  I would leave your 10 blades to use as the 10 XA servers.

I will have to leave Edge site and PVS to someone else with experience with those.

 

by: ToxicPigPosted on 2009-08-27 at 08:51:45ID: 25199616

A couple of points to get you started.  

Do you have shared storage?  Highly recommend that, and highly recommend virtualizing your XenApp server instances on top of a XenServer install.  Even if you only have one VM running on each physical machine, taking up all the resources, virtualization gives the individual VM's mobility and resiliency.  An iSCSI or NFS shared storage system would be needed though.  Netapp makes some nice and inexpensive ones.  You'll likely run into some storage issues with only 120GB per blade.  

Also highly recommend you install all the latest versions of XenApp.  Dirty secret:  XA 5.0 is really just CPS 4.5 with a new name and a couple of the management programs updated.  It's the same program.  You'd just be getting bug fixes and minor feature enhancements by going to XA 5.0 FP2.  

In terms of the actual design, virtualization will help balance loads across the whole blade frame.  You could stand up images as needed.  In general you will need:

AD server (already existing?)
DB server for the farm
Provisioning server
Web interface server
application servers

The AD server is obvious, that for authentication and such.  

The DB server really is needed in this case.  That many users with a modest sized farm really does get you into the need for a dedicated, and even replicated database.  SQL Server or Oracle is recommended.  I think a SQL express install would not serve you well.

Provisioning server.  To virtualize or not to virtualize?  I'm honestly on the fence with that one.  I've done both, and can make arguments both ways.  Not a big deal, as it seems from your description that you may not even use Provisioning Server.

Web Interface server(s).  At least two, probably three would be good.  Virtualize to separate functionality and provide resiliency.  Your Access Gateway device will assist you in their configuration.  A software upgrade of the Access Gateway turns it into a Netscalar so you could do load balancing if needed.  

App servers.  I'd start out with six, and push as high as ten.  Again, if you do the numbers, we've overused your blade chassis already.  Making the VM's movable will allow you to do that, balance the load across the whole blade frame, and add/remove resources from each VM as needed.  Really helps with the management.  Plus the fact that if a VM crashes, it's easy to reset remotely as the underlying virtual server host did not crash.

EdgeSite is really good to have a dedicated collector machine (VM).  

Last point is streaming.  Use it.  I don't know how any of this worked before streaming... :)  All you need is a clean machine (VM) to install the streaming profiler on.  Then you "install" the apps using the streaming profiler.  You end up with a file that you place on the app server farm, and then the clients request that file, which is the app, fully delivered in an isolation container.  The app downloads once to each client, and runs locally.  You maintain application control like you are used to, but you save server resources as the apps run locally on the clients.  They can run in a disconnected mode as well.  Streamed apps can be made persistent across reboots, so that road warriors can take their apps along with them.  They are required to check in with the app server only once every 21 days.  The other way of doing things is to stream to the server.  The same isolation container can stream on the server, using the server's resources, but not being subject to a lot of the application cross-dependency difficulties of regular hosted apps.

That should do it.  Feel free to post more questions, and I'll answer them as best I can.

 

by: AdamBNYCPosted on 2009-08-27 at 10:26:43ID: 25200667

There are a few things I could add here. Xenserver is a great idea. XenApp on Xenserver is great. But lets also look at this a different way. I highly recommend XenApp on Xenserver if you must maintain a 32-bit environment. I suggest against using Server 2003 enterprise edition. Nothing is gained here over standard edition and it may cost you more money to go enterprise, but that all depends on your MSFT agreement.

If you can go 64-bit through and through, you may want to consider leaving XenServer out. If you can do 64-bit hardware, 64-bit OS, 64-bit XenApp and 64-bit applications that will give you highest user density possible today. If your applications are 32-bit then XenApp on Xenserver is totally the way to go.

Let me explain a bit. In a 32 bit OS the most amount of memory that can be truly addressed is 4GB. I dont want to hear about the /PAE switch, or how enterprise can address more ram, it can't really. This is a 32-bit limitation. So commonly we see that 32-bit Citrix servers bottleneck at the ram. Adding additonal ram above 4GB to the 32-bit OS yeilds litttle or no increase in user density.If we can do 64-bit through and through, then we can indeed address more RAM that 4GB and achieve much higher density.

This is where XenApp on Xenserver comes in. If you must maintain 32-bit environment, We can take a physical host with 16 GB of ram on it, install XenServer first and create 4 VM's of XenApp on that host. Given that Xenserver only has a 7% overhead we can dramatically increase user density per physical host. So if we take a server that has XenApp directly installed to it, and it is getting 40 users on it, We can bring that back to bare metal, install the XenServer hypervisor, then create our 4 VM's, and since there is 7% overhead each VM will now get 35 users per host. So a host that yielded 40 users before, now yields 140 users. A 100 user increase.

Provisioning server is a great tool. And if used correctly is very valuable in lower the administrative overhead of your Citrix environment. So we can take a single golden image and stream this on demand to the virtual XenServer environment by setting the virtual machines to do a network boot from the PvS server. Whats really cool about this is that you can deploy your entire environment off a single master golden image. When you want to patch, upgrade, install you can make a copy of this golden image for yourself. Boot it up, make all updates, installs, changes and then flip your new image into production. You reboot the Citrix Virtual servers and they all pull the new updated image. The entire environment maintains continuity and we can be sure that the end user experience is the same across the entire farm.

 

by: BLipmanPosted on 2009-08-27 at 10:42:03ID: 25200819

"Adding additonal ram above 4GB to the 32-bit OS yeilds litttle or no increase in user density" It can actually harm performance because it takes resources to maintain the AWE memory map.  If you are mapping out a huge memory space and no programs can access it then you are actually taking more resources away from the 4GB pool.  
I totally agree with the above statement on server architecture; the 32/64 question is critical.  Don't forget the nightmare of finding 64-bit print drivers; the universal only gets you so far...

 

by: cnjugunaPosted on 2009-08-27 at 10:57:26ID: 25200943

Previous comments are right. VMs are definitely necessary to utilize your hardware to the max.

 

by: mpopalPosted on 2009-08-27 at 11:50:12ID: 25201366

Thanks all for your suggestions.

I don't have XenServer licenses so unfortunately I can't use XenServer to virtualize. For streaming, apps will not be streamed to workstations. I want the apps streamed to the XenApp servers. The environment where I will install this Farm already has an AD structure, but no DB servers. There is no SAN environment so I have to rely on local storage. I realize 120GB isn't a lot of space, but the apps won't take up that much space. My concern is user profiles taking up space.

A few questions:
1. Isn't it wise to have at least 2 streaming servers? That way if one stream server is down the other can take over. Or is streaming server a function where it is streamed only once to all XenApp servers and it is not used again? If that's the case I see how only one streaming server would be needed.
2. Since I don't have XenServer and I'm using a 32-bit version of Win 2003 Enterprise edition, I assume I'm kind of screwed in terms of taking advantage of memory....correct?
3. Couldn't I use a XenApp server as the Web Interface server? Then I can install WI on 2 XenApp servers and have the Netscaler/Secure Gateway load balance between the two?
4. cnjuguna suggested to use a primary configuration server and a backup configuration server. What is a configuration server? I don't remember that from the PS 4 and earlier days.
5. Any suggestions on user profiles eating up disk space. This environment is not the user's primary network so user profiles should be pretty small, but I'd like to hear any suggestions.
6. Can I install Xenapp 5 on Windows 2003? I thought it required 2008.
7. Can I install provisioning server or edgesite on a XenApp server or does it need a dedicated server?

Thanks so much!

 

by: BLipmanPosted on 2009-08-27 at 11:58:29ID: 25201459

2. Since I don't have XenServer and I'm using a 32-bit version of Win 2003 Enterprise edition, I assume I'm kind of screwed in terms of taking advantage of memory....correct?
I think XenServer is free...or, if you read my original post (ahem) you will see me suggesting ESXi which is...free.  

3. Couldn't I use a XenApp server as the Web Interface server? Then I can install WI on 2 XenApp servers and have the Netscaler/Secure Gateway load balance between the two?
Sure, you can also tow a trailer with a 3 series BMW but is it a good idea? No.  In an environment as large as this, you want stable, dedicated web servers.  

5. Any suggestions on user profiles eating up disk space. This environment is not the user's primary network so user profiles should be pretty small, but I'd like to hear any suggestions.
Yes, hybrid profiles can keep things like Desktop, My Documents, etc on a file share so you don't pollute your C drives on the XA servers too much.  You can also GPO in a policy to delete local profiles on logoff.  

6. Can I install Xenapp 5 on Windows 2003? I thought it required 2008.
You are correct, the installer for XA5.0 loads PS4.5 on a 2003 server.  

 

by: AdamBNYCPosted on 2009-08-27 at 12:00:26ID: 25201476

1. A streaming server is really a file share. Just a fancy term
2. You can use the XenServer free edition. Does not cost a penny. But yes, you would be "screwed" also you planned on 10 blade servers, Depending on user load you may not even be able to accommodate 1000 concurrent users using Xenserver
3. You could install web interface across many Citrix XenApp servers, then use Netscaler to load balance OR, what I would recommend. Create two dedicated virtual servers for Web Interface and load balance using netscaler
4. Not sure here...
5. You can try roaming profiles or Citrix Universal Profile Manager. Either way you should lock down profiles so that only required things are saved and redirected.
6. Installing XenApp 5 on server 2003 is really XenApp 4.5 feature release 2. Installing XenApp 5 on Windows Server 2008 is actually XenApp 5 and the truest representation of all the work Citrix did.
7. Both boxes need to be dedicated and Physical

 

by: AdamBNYCPosted on 2009-08-27 at 12:02:04ID: 25201499

made a typing mistake:

2. You can use the XenServer free edition. Does not cost a penny. But yes, you would be "screwed" also you planned on 10 blade servers, Depending on user load you may not even be able to accommodate 1000 concurrent users using Xenserver

this should say

You can use the XenServer free edition. Does not cost a penny. But yes, you would be "screwed" also you planned on 10 blade servers, Depending on user load you may not even be able to accommodate 1000 concurrent users WITHOUT USING Xenserver

 

by: cnjugunaPosted on 2009-08-27 at 12:29:53ID: 25201741

1. Isn't it wise to have at least 2 streaming servers? That way if one stream server is down the other can take over. Or is streaming server a function where it is streamed only once to all XenApp servers and it is not used again? If that's the case I see how only one streaming server would be needed.
[Like AdamBNYC says. A streaming server is just a file share. However, the server also does all the processing (am I right?) so the bulk of your servers will actually be streaming servers]

2. Since I don't have XenServer and I'm using a 32-bit version of Win 2003 Enterprise edition, I assume I'm kind of screwed in terms of taking advantage of memory....correct?
[There's also Microsoft Virtual Server. Haven't used it though so I can't comment on it

4. cnjuguna suggested to use a primary configuration server and a backup configuration server. What is a configuration server? I don't remember that from the PS 4 and earlier days.

[I stand to be corrected on this one. In my understanding the configuration server contains the farm configuration (previously contained in Presentation Server). It can usually coexist with the WI (which is what I do) but Citrix recommends a separate server for configuration and another for licensing. In case the WI server goes down your whole farm crashes. I'd suggest 1 server for configuration only (I guess it could also host the SQL server for config) and a backup configuration server on one or more of the WIs ]

5. Any suggestions on user profiles eating up disk space. This environment is not the user's primary network so user profiles should be pretty small, but I'd like to hear any suggestions.

[Yes. This can be a problem. App files are streamed to user profiles so depending on your apps they can really grow. Additionally, with user sessions being assigned dynamically to the streaming servers, users will most probably have profiles on multiple servers. An option as mentioned earlier is to delete profiles on logoff, but this also slows down app buildup time since files will need to be copied at each logon]

 

by: mpopalPosted on 2009-08-27 at 13:32:31ID: 25202392

One big thing to clarify is I will have 1000 users who log into the farm, but concurrently we're talking about 200 users on average.

So if a user's profile is deleted upon logoff, then the next time the user logs on the application has to be streamed again?

It sounds like I need to use ESXi or something similar that is free. I'm very familiar with VMware, but not ESXi. The lack of a gui for management really turns me off. Of course the lack of a SAN is another turnoff for virtualization. But regardless it sounds like I really need to take a closer look at a free virtualization product like ESXi. But for provisioning and Edgesite it sounds like I can't use virtualization since it sounds like it has to be a physical server.

One last request and I'm done - can you guys post how you would configure this environment if virtualization is not an option. In other words state something like server 1 would be xenapp and license server, server 2 would be xenapp, server 3 xenapp, web interface, and so on.

I'd like to get a feel for what the majority will say. Thanks.

 

by: BLipmanPosted on 2009-08-27 at 13:45:22ID: 25202525

ESXi has a fantastic and free GUI, have no fear, what they strip out is the CLI part so if you aren't a big linux scripter then ESXi is fantastic.  You run the same vSphere client for ESXi as the full version but you lose things like VMotion, HA, DRS, etc.  

On setup, really there are many ways to do it so I won't go into that quite yet but your user count is more promising.  With 200 concurrent users you can run with 8 Citrix application servers and be under 30 ccu/server.  This would leave you two physical servers to work with still.  

Personally, since your blades are so powerful, it would be tough to justfiy an entire physical system for something like a dedicated zone data collector, STA, etc.  Once you make the decision to virtualize (because you can't scale down and out with more servers, lower spec) your options get much easier.  Even if you go physical with the servers that need it you have plenty of overhead to virtualize out the remainder of the farm.  

I attached a screen shot of the vSphere interface, it is the same client I use to manage my VI environment.  

 

by: mpopalPosted on 2009-08-27 at 14:02:32ID: 25202679

BLipman: thanks for the post and thanks for letting me know about the gui for ESXi. Looks just like the VMware that I'm used to. I'm going to wait for a few more responses and then assign points. Thanks!

 

by: BLipmanPosted on 2009-08-27 at 14:10:16ID: 25202744

Cool, I think that all contributors to this thread provided excellent info btw!

 

by: ToxicPigPosted on 2009-08-27 at 14:27:02ID: 25202888

Here's the link for XenServer:

http://www.citrix.com/xenserver/download

Totally free.  Has a very nice GUI.  It has all the extra bells and whistles that the paid version does.  The only thing you might miss is HA, but you'd need shared storage to take advantage of that.  The critical bit is that it has the XenApp optimizations in it that you'll need to make your virtual instances as efficient as possible.  

Once you download, it will ask you to activate the servers.  It links you to the Citrix site, you fill in the information for the Marketing and Sales guys, and then you get an activation key that you can use on as many servers as you like.  You'll get a little nag each time you open up XenCenter about upgrading to the Enterprise Essentials, but that's it.  The free license also needs to be renewed every year.  Again, just refreshing the data for the Marketing guys.

Come to think, If you have the PLATINUM license for XenApp, that should come with Server virtualization.  In other words, you should have licenses for XenServer as part of your existing purchase.  Check with your Citrix rep on that.

 

by: ToxicPigPosted on 2009-08-27 at 14:32:02ID: 25202922

Bingo.  Check the matrix:

http://www.citrix.com/English/ps2/products/subfeature.asp?contentID=1689907

XenServer is included with ALL editions other that the Fundamentals.  The line item is toward the bottom.  They should cough up 10 server licenses for you without blinking.  All it really gets you is the lack of the upgrade nags when you start XenCenter.

 

by: BLipmanPosted on 2009-08-27 at 15:08:10ID: 25203162

The only reason I tend to recommend VMWare is because I know it and haven't taken the time to learn XenServer.  There is something to be said about keeping your products homogenous.  

 

by: AdamBNYCPosted on 2009-08-27 at 15:29:40ID: 25203279

If you know ESX, you know Xenserver. Citrix made it extremely easy to understand and the central consoles have a very similar feel.

 

by: BLipmanPosted on 2009-08-27 at 16:03:24ID: 25203440

Cool, I need to check it out!

 

by: mpopalPosted on 2009-08-28 at 07:10:25ID: 25207817

Thanks everyone for all your help. I now have a much better idea of what to do and plan for.

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Testimonials

"I was apprehensive at signing up at first. However... it has already made my life as an IT administrator much easier." JaCrews

Testimonials

"WOW! You guys have great, active, and knowledgeable people on here." moore50

Business Clients

Business Clients

In the Press

"If you’ve got a question... Experts Exchange can supply an answer.”

In the Press

"...an invaluable aid for both IT professionals and those who require tech support."

In the Press

"where IT professionals provide quick answers on just about any topic"

Business Account Plans

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