Color Management

 A program that would show me what the printer is going to print, would be of help, at least until the mismatch is corrected. In PS9 the print with preview, does not seem to give me the right information either, does not match the printed image.

Color management problems are the single biggest headache for beginners and experts alike.

No doubt there will be lots of experts here that will provide links to Color management tutorials. There are a ton of them out there.

This is usually my solution as well, then I tell them to get a profiling device and use it.

But you already have one, so this tells me that you're on a different level already.

Let me start with the obvious questions first.

1)      Have you calibrated your Monitor?
2)      Have you calibrated your Scanner?
3)      Have you calibrated your printer TO THE PAPER THAT YOU ARE USING AND WITH THE SAME PRINTER SETTINGS?
4)      Have you set your PhotoShop print preview to use your custom profile for your ink/paper/printer settings?

If the answer to any of these is no, do all four and see if that doesn’t clear things up. If you need help doing any of these, the EZ Color manual is available here: http://www.xritephoto.com/product/ezcolor/ It also has an excellent tutorial on color management (it’s in the manual)


If you answered YES to all four read on.

It takes some people a while to understand that you have to build a different profile for EACH Media Type and Print Quality change that you make to your printing setup. If you print at 3200dpi using EPSON’s Media Type: Matte Paper Heavyweight and then print the exact same image on the exact same paper at 1440 dpi, then you need a new profile. Same goes if you change from Ultra Premium Glossy Photo Paper setting to Premium Glossy Photo Paper setting.

So once you have a custom profile for your setup, you need to turn OFF Epson’s color management. Do this in the printer dialogue After you set your Print Quality and Media Type, go to Advanced/Color Management and check ICM. (Do not select PhotoEnhance) This should have been the settings when you printed your target print during the profiling stage.

Then you need to tell PhotoShop to use your custom profile to color manage your print. This is in the Print Preview dialogue where it says Print Spade: Profile:. Call up your custom profile here (you do remember what you named it don’t you)

That should do it. Once you get your profiles and settings down, you’ll be making prints that look like a Photo Lab.

BTW, standard procedure was to turn off color management in the Epson print dialogue. I took a look at the R220 manual and notice that it does not have that as an option. In their Tech brochure they suggest "playing with ICM on and off." I have sent an Email to Epson asking for clarification. I'll let you know what they say.

Opps! forgot to add...

New to CS2...Color Handling drop down box in print preview should be set to "Let Photoshop Determine Colors" This will let you select your custom profile in the Printer Profile drop down.

1= yes
2 = yes
3 = will check
4 =will check

    It takes some people a while to understand that you have to build a different profile for EACH Media Type and Print Quality change that you make to your printing setup. If you print at 3200dpi using EPSON’s Media Type: Matte Paper Heavyweight and then print the exact same image on the exact same paper at 1440 dpi, then you need a new profile. Same goes if you change from Ultra Premium Glossy Photo Paper setting to Premium Glossy Photo Paper setting
  The problem here is the monaco says to set scanner dpi to 200 and I use 48 bit color and 1200 dpi, however I have a mismatch with 200 dpi and 24 bit color, that is what monaco told me to use for setup.
   Not sure if I have print with preview set up wright
My print dialogue does have an option to turn color management.

3 = I use only one paper, I picked the closest match. The printer settings for making the profile were to have no color adjustment.
4= yes, but there are other adjustments I am not sure about

If I make adjustments in print with preview, it is verhard to make the preview change and when I do make it chang, it does not effect the printed image.
 
 Wha about some thing that will show me what the printer is going to print, before it prints.

I’m sorry that I didn’t make myself clear.

When Monaco is looking at an image that you scanned in, it tells its software to go over 50 pixels and measure the color, then go over 50 more pixels and measure that color, etc. (I just made up the 50 pixel number, but you get the idea)

If you scan at 1200 dpi, it goes over 50 pixels and it’s the same color, 50 more and it’s still the same color. EZ Color thinks your printer is whacked out, it prints all of the color squares the same color! That is why you scan at 50 pixels. (also turn off sharpening, this causes the areas where color squares meet to become lighter. This can throw your readings off.

Scanning at 48 bit won’t hurt anything, but it doesn’t help either.

You want to PRINT at the same settings for your profile as you will use when you print normally. BTW what paper are you using? And what settings?

> 4= yes, but there are other adjustments I am not sure about

Leave them alone for right now. As long as they are consistent from print to print we can get your profile correct.

If I make adjustments in print with preview, it is very hard to make the preview change and when I do make it change, it does not effect the printed image.

>What about something that will show me what the printer is going to print, before it prints.

That’s what getting the profile will do for you.

First, a correct profile will adjust the printer to get the very best print that your printer can make on that paper. Then it will tell Photoshop what Photoshop needs to do to get those colors, and third, print preview will tell you what your print will look like off of your printer.

BTW print preview can sometimes be a big disappointment. Your printer can’t print near as many colors as your monitor can show. Colors like vivid  greens, purples and oranges especially just can’t be reached, even with a six color printer like the R220.

But it’s better to find out in print preview than to beat your head into the wall trying to get something that your printer can’t give you.

My advice. Start over with your profiling, being sure to do it exactly “by the book”
Clear out any old profiles that you created and start fresh.
Print an image using the profile. Then call up the profile in print preview and compare. How close is the preview to the print? If it is still way off, come back and we’ll try some more.

If it is a close match, but does not look the way you want it to look, we can deal with that too, but first, let’s get the profile to reflect what the printer’s doing.

edit to the above...
should read: ..."whacked out, the printer prints all of the color squares the same color! That is why you scan at 200 pixels."

I have talked to monaco for hours several times. I have make and deleted more than 20 complete profiles.
HP Premium Photo Paper Glossy and the settings are Ultra Premium Glossy Photo Paper.
     First, a correct profile will adjust the printer to get the very best print that your printer can make on that paper. Then it will tell Photoshop what Photoshop needs to do to get those colors, and third, print preview will tell you what your print will look like off of your printer
     Cant seem to get the correct profile. I am asked to print a target while making a printer profile, I can also save that target and print from Photoshop. I did it both ways, the difference is gigantic.

>I have talked to monaco for hours several times. I have make and deleted more than 20 complete profiles.

That surprises me. I have always found the folks at Monaco VERY knowledgeable and very helpful. So that I don't go over the same things that you have already gone over with them, what have they been saying to you?

I have issues that they are unfamiliar with

>I have issues that they are unfamiliar with

I'm afraid that you might have issues that I'm unfamiliar with also.

4 AM here, going to bed. BTW while trying to solve this problem I have printed 90 pictures, they are all junk.

I have an update; I uninstalled and reinstalled Photoshop;Scanner and printer. Then made new profiles. Color matches as good as it ever did. You said something about making the color match even better. I may want to try that, depends on how the color match continues.
  I want to thank you for your patience. BTW I have called Monaco to say  thanks.

Glad to hear things are better. About wasting 90 prints...been there, done that! You can really waste a lot of ink if you don't use a profiling program (and get it to work!)
I'll let you play with your new profile for a few days and check back with you to see if I can help fine tune your printing workflow.

-David

I was told that the image in print with preview, could have the size increased to fill the monitor screen. Would you know how to do that?

Opps- those shortcuts control the area where I work on the image, not the thumb nail in print with preview (right?)

Thanks for the grade.

By now I guess that you've tried the shortcut out and know that they control the whole window.

the thumbnail in print with preview does not seem to be acurate

I am still looking for a program or harware thay would give me an acurate view of my picture before it is printed

I don’t understand your question. The thumbnail on the print with preview is just that…a thumbnail. Its purpose it only to judge the layout of the image on the printed page.

To see how your image will look after it is printed, go to View/Proof Setup/Custom and load your custom profile for your paper and ink. Then select View/Proof Colors. This should give you a reasonable idea of how your image will print.

To understand how it all works, including the paper white and ink black settings, you need to read “Producing Consistent Color (Photoshop)” in the Photoshop help, especially the section on “Soft Proofing.”

You will not find a better program than Photoshop for seeing what your printed image will look like for under $1,500 USD

What programs are you reffering to?

--To see how your image will look after it is printed, go to View/Proof Setup/Custom and load your custom profile for your paper and ink. Then select View/Proof Colors. This should give you a reasonable idea of how your image will print.--

This does not match what is printed or what is on the monitor.

 I am not any closer than I was. No matter what I do I cannot get a printer preview that matches the print. My Epson R220  Has an option for preview print, it comes up just before you print, but that is not accurate either. It does not show what is going to be printed.
  What working space do you recommend and what do you think I should do with profiles that dont match?

Do want me to start another Topic?

I would not rely on the printer preview settings.
To start with, your monitor MUST be calibrated properly. If this is not happening, nothing else that you do is going to get you any closer to matching monitor and prints.

Next, you must calibrate your printer. No printer will print every patch on the test chart with 100% accuracy. Your calibration software will measure the difference between what was printed and what it was supposed to be and will adjust the best that it can.

Say for instance that you design a picture with 100% black. There is not an ink or a paper that can print 100% black. Perhaps your printer prints 96% black, and that is the best that it can do. So you see a very deep black on the monitor, but when you print, you get a dark gray where you hoped there would be deep black.

When you load your profile into Photoshop and turn on proof colors, your 100% black areas will now be 96% black. If that is now what is happening, you still don’t have your profile right.

Monaco gives you a program called ColorWorks. It lets you make adjustments to your profile so that you can fine tune it to match your monitor. I DO NOT suggest that you use it until you feel comfortable that everything else with your system is working correctly.

You said that you had to reinstall your printer driver, scanner driver and reinstalled Photoshop before everything would work correctly.

Do you feel that you are getting a good quality print (in spite of the fact that it does not match the monitor) Are you getting rich deep colors without a color cast???
If not, you still are having trouble getting a good profile.

One more thing. Are you using Adobe gamma? This is Adobe’s monitor calibration program. Look in your startup folder and make sure that it is not in there. You do not want Adobe Gamma loading while you are using EZColor to do the same thing.

I am not using adobe gamma. I dont believe that I made a new profile for the printer, after installing the new driver. I will do that now.
  I have spent many hours with Monaco, they do not recommend Colorworks or Edit Printer Profile.

What working space do you recommend and what do you think I should do with profiles that dont match?

It doesnt seem difficult to show what will be printed, but it would have to come from the printer based on the info sent to it. That way ther would be a consistent match between what the PRINTER said would be printered and what is printed. That would be really helpful in troubleshooting.
  I have talked to Photoshop and they agree that they have a "preview before print" problem. I wish there was a program that would solve this issue.

>What working space do you recommend and what do you think I should do with profiles that dont match?

Throw them away, or better yet, move them to a folder that you can throw away when you get your system working correctly. Just don’t use them now.

Are you using a measuring device to calibrate your monitor or are you doing it by eye?

> What color space should I use?

At this point, it does not matter all that much, as long as you are consistent. sRGB is the color space that has been adopted by Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard, and others as a standard for the web and for low-end printers and consumer cameras.

AdobeRGB has become the standard for the printing industry and for professionals photographers and graphic designers (However there are plenty of professionals who use a different space.)

If you are serious about making prints, I would go with AdobeRGB, if most of your work is for the web, I would go with sRGB.

yes I have device to calibrate the monitor.

I know that it is impossible to describe colors with words, but can you try and describe what you are seeing on your monitor and what you are seeing printed out?

Are they close or way off?

Are the prints satisfactory? Do they have good saturation of colors and a full range of darks and lights (if the original image had them)?

How is what you see on your monitor different from what is printed.?

When you turn on proof preview (once you get a good profile) how does it look that is different from when you turn preview off?

Are the prints satisfactory? Do they have good saturation of colors and a full range of darks and lights (if the original image had them)?
No;NO;No

How is what you see on your monitor different from what is printed.?
printed is lighter and less red

When you turn on proof preview (once you get a good profile) how does it look that is different from when you turn preview off?Proof preview is 50 shades darker, yet the printed image is lighter

Do you use North America Prepress 2
Adobe RGB (1998)
US Web Coated (SWOP) v2

So you’re still not getting a good print. That bites.

When you are adjusting your printer settings to make a print, what color management settings (if any) are you using in the Epson print dialogue (under Advanced settings?)



> Do you use North America Prepress 2
> Adobe RGB (1998)
> US Web Coated (SWOP) v2

My monitor is calibrated to 3200K gamma 2.2

For my RGB color space I use the RGB color space: Adobe RGB (1998)
I don’t know off hand what my CMYK settings is. It is probably US Sheetfed Coated because most of the time that I do CMYK work, I am preparing ads for sheetfed presses and they are printing on coated stock, but this color space isn’t used when I’m printing on the printers in my office. For that I use my RGB space.
If you ever have to do work in CMYK, you should ask the printer what space you should use for that job. For work around your home or office, you will never touch CMYK.
I do a lot of work in grayscale and for that I use dot gain 20%, but I don’t print my grayscale images on my color printers.
I never do spot colors so I don’t even know what that is set to.

No color adjustment on printer

Okay, I'm stumped.

I'd go ahead and repost and see if you can get some more "Experts" involved.

Sorry that I couldn't solve your problem.

Could be a bad printer. I am going to see if I can get a IT8 card for this printer. At least then I will know if the printer is OK.

If I have to start a new post, so you can keep your points, I will. Let me know if that is what you want me to do.

The points don't matter much. I just afraid that no one with fresh ideas is reading this thread. You might be able to benefit from having a new set of "experts" look at your problems.

I have an answer (such as it is). I installed arcsoft photo impressions from the printer cd. It gives me an independent printeralready loaded with all the epson profiles and drivers. And photoshop or the monitor have no effect on it. Now I can load the image from my hard drive and get a preview and print that match what I made with photoshop (dont ask me how it works).

I'm very happy that you found a solution. Your problem still bugs me. I know something is wrong with your setup, I just don't know what questions to ask in order to find it. Like I said, If you still have problems, withdraw from this and repost it to see what others think.

Best of luck,
David

With the help of a preview that I could rely on, I found another problem. It seems that when an image is sent to the printer, it carries the old working space, even if the new working space has beed saved.
   Dont know how to get around this, yet.
     BTW do you know how to easily size the main window to 37%? I have a 21 in monitor and a second 17 in monitor for my tools. So 37% is actual size for a 8x10@200 dpi image.

I just talked to photoshop tech support, they took all the info on arc soft photo impressions. It will be passed on for the next version of Photoshop to be called CS3. To correct working space problems, I found that I could assign the profile I want and then keep it by using convert to profile.