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Booting trouble

Posted on 1998-01-07
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Last Modified: 2013-12-16
I have a W95 PC and installed NT4 over it.
I selected 'previous windows version' in the NT4 bootmenu
When  Windows95 booted i pressed F8 and choose previous DOS. Then Dos 6.20 booted.
Then i adjusted Config.sys & autoexec.bat.
(Though this only affects the dos-boot session)

Now when i choose 'previous windows version' in the NT4 bootmenu, the PC freezes. It does not boot W95 anymore.

1) What have i done wrong ?
2) How do i correct this ?
In the past, on a W95 PC, i had the same problem, and
booted with a W95 diskette, and then did 'sys a: c:'. This corrected the problem then, but i think i can not use this on my NT4-pc. (NT4 works OK).
 
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Question by:mvz121697
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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753063
Edited text of question
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by:smeebud
ID: 1753064
If this does not work for you let me know, or reject.
There are other options but I think the damage is done.

Relocate Without Reinstalling
coa32.zip COA32 (Change of Address/32)
is a 32-bit Windows version of the popular
PC Magazine utility COA. COA32, which runs under
Windows 95 and Windows NT 3.51 or higher, lets you
change the drive or directory of a Windows program
without having to reinstall the program. It works
by searching for all references to the old path and
updating them to reflect the new path. (247Kb)
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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753065
MVZ, this should help you out!
=======================
1. This presumes that you have installed MS-DOS and there are no damaged files.

2. This also presumes that you have installed Windows NT 4.0 and have created a repair disk.

3. Remove the read-only and hidden attributes of Bootsect.dos by typing and running the following line from the command prompt:
 
       attrib -r -h bootsect.dos
 
4. Copy the boot sector for MS-DOS by typing and running the following line from the command prompt:
 
       copy c:\bootsect.dos c:\bootsect.sav
 
5. Boot to MS-DOS and reinstall Windows 95 with switches, as follows:
 
d:\setup /d /p b

Note: This presumes that your using a windows 95 cd, your cd rom drive is drive "d". The /p b switch will enable you to step through windows 95 detection modules and ignor those that you do not want. Select custom setup and choose those components that you want to retain.

6. You will need to repair the Windows NT boot sector as Windows 95 has over-written the boot sector. This will also create a new Bootsect.dos for Windows 95.
 
7. Remove the read-only and hidden attributes from the Windows 95 Bootsect.dos by typing and running the following line from the command prompt:
 
       attrib -r -h bootsect.dos
 
8. Rename the Windows 95 boot sector from c:\bootsect.dos to
c:\bootsect.w40.
 
9. Rename the MS-DOS boot sector from c:\bootsect.sav to c:\bootsect.dos.
 
10. Remove the read-only attribute from boot.ini by typing and running the following line from the command prompt:
 
       attrib -r boot.ini
 
11. Modify Boot.ini using any text editor, such as Edit or Notepad, by adding the following lines:
 
       [Operating Systems]
       c:\bootsect.dos="MS-DOS v6.22" /win95dos
       c:\bootsect.w40="Windows 95" /win95
 
You should now see the additional choices of "Windows 95" and "MS-DOS v6.22" when you start Windows NT.
 
The new switches, /win95dos and /win95, are needed so that Windows NT can emulate the multiple boot process of Windows 95.

If you have any questions, let me know!

Dennis
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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753066
Dennis,
next week, i am going to try your solution.
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by:smeebud
ID: 1753067
mvz,
I never am offended by getting rejected, as you know i suggested
to you that is an option. However I believe it would be curtiuos
to give me some feedback on a suggestion. Did you try it and it
fail?
Did you try it at all?
This helps us all.

Regards
bud
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Expert Comment

by:smeebud
ID: 1753068
mvz,
I never am offended by getting rejected, as you know i suggested
to you that is an option. However I believe it would be curtiuos
to give me some feedback on a suggestion. Did you try it and it
fail?
Did you try it at all?
This helps us all.

Regards
bud
0
 

Expert Comment

by:Intel
ID: 1753069
I would delete autoexec.bat and config.sys and see what happens (or rename them)

Also, 95 is not compatible with NTFS.  Are you using NTFS?

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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753070
Intel, try reading the posts and realize there is an ongoing dialogue. Maybe you maybe answers work elsewhere, but they don't cut it here!
Dennis
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Expert Comment

by:Intel
ID: 1753071
Dennis

While it may be so, I saw a possible fix, and thought I could help.  If MVZ does not accept my answer, fine, I do not mind, but if I can help, why not?

Please reply via personal e-mail to davidzon@tech-center.com if you feel its necessary, for its a waste of MVZ and everyone elses time on here.

Thanks

vsd
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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753072
Intel, your comment deserves a comment right here. You're a relative newbie that makes a habit of jumping into the middle of ongoing dialogues without any thought to the confusion that it might cause. These people come here for answers, not subjective whim, therefore it would behoove you to think through your comments based upon expertise and experience and work with the customer through to a solution. There was a fine cooperative working ethic here prior!
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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753073
Lest there be some mistake, it may also behoove you to read the rules of the site with regard to posting of email and/or other addresses. If you can't observe the ethic and the rules, leave!
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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753074
To Smeebud,
Sorry, i was planning for an explanation, but was in a hurry, here it is: When reading your answer, i thought the utility you mentioned was to be used for a program installed in W95, not for W95 itself. I will download it and read more info.
It is a heavily used NT4 machine, which has crashed once because of this reason, therefor i am waiting for a 'quit' moment to try things.

To Intel: Sorry, but your answer is not relevant (and i fully agree with dew_assiocates comments)





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by:busuka
ID: 1753075
Sorry for breaking flame wars here, but please let's get back to the
question, shall we ? :)))

Now, AFAIK, the order of istallations of NT4 and Win95 following:
1) You install NT (MBR changed for NT)
2) you install Win95 (MBR changed for Win95)
3) you use NT Boot Loader to adjust MBR, so you can access NT and
 Win95.

Sorry, no personal experience here, just common thoughs.

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by:smeebud
ID: 1753076
mvz,
Thanks for you comment. I appreciate it.

Dennis, great answer to mvz's question. I've learned again.
Other issue handled well:))
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Do you feel like you are taking up all of your time constantly visiting users’ desks to make changes to email signatures? Wish you could manage all signatures from one central location, easily design them and deploy them quickly to users? Well, there is an easy way!

 
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dew_associates earned 100 total points
ID: 1753077
Thanks mvz for the vote of confidence! Rather than post the entire dialogue again, I'll leave this comment as an answer until you've worked through the published dialogue.

As to your original question, it's very hard to boot back to 6.22 from inseide the NT bootloader unless you may very specific provisions to do so. Ian's thoughts are going in the right direction, but just a little backwards.

If you have a system that employed dos 6.22 on it and loaded Win95 and preserved 6.22 as an alternative boot selection and then loaded NT, you can't go back to 6.22 and NT won't permit it. The only way around this would be to use something like the boot loader that comes with Partition Magic or System Commander (yuk).

Let us know how you make out!
Dennis
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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753078
I have installed Windows 95 on the machine by booting with
a W95 disk and running Sys a: c: (i didn't want to loose my W95-registry which i was afraid to loose by running setup)

Now the PC starts W95 automaticly (works;-))
But how to go back to NT ?
I think i have to reinstall the NT4 MBR.
How can i do this ?

Greetings,
MvZ
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Expert Comment

by:smeebud
ID: 1753079
Stopp worring about loosing your registry, save the dar thing.
Get WRP.
WRPV3.ZIP is the Best and easiest Registry Backup/Restore I've Seen. Go To:
http://www.webdev.net/orca/ and Search WRP: Install and backup.
This is a well written batch file driven bakup and restore, so it writes nothing
to your system. Far better than Microsofts URU.
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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753080
MVZ, the only thing you should have to do now is modify the NT bootloader. Does the boot loader come up at all now? Let me know, as there's 2 ways to handle this.
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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753081
No, the bootloader does not come up.
W95 is started automaticly
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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753082
Okay, as long as Win95 is now okay, let's go on.

As I said, there's two ways to approach this, which is based on your software setup.

Which version of Win95 do you have, 950, 950a or 950b (OSR2)?

Do you still want to boot to Msdos 6.22?

How did you try and load NT 4.0 before? exactly please!

Lastly, what kind of machine is this that your working on?

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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753083
I have Win95a.
Don't have to boot msdos.
Before, i installed NT4 from within a W95-dosbox, with Winnt.exe from the CD.
My machine is a PII,266.





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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753084
Okay, now we'll rebuild NT's boot loader.

1. Make sure that your cd rom autplay feature is enabled.

2. Disregard the setup described in the NT manual!

3. Boot your system into the Bios/Cmos setup and disable Plug and Play, and boot through to Windows 95.

4. Using your "Ctrl"  "Alt"  and  "Del"  keys, open the "Close Programs" dialogue box and close all running programs except for Explorer and Systray (if running).

5. Insert the NT cd rom disk in the drive. This should bring up the NT 4.0 install screen. Now install NT normally, but be patient, as the search and setup mechanisms are slow but effective.

6. Set up your NT features. Once you have it running, the boot loader will default to NT, but this can be changed to Win95. If you want to change it, let me know and I'll post the procedure for you.

Dennis
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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753085
Dennis,

Do you mean a full install of NT ?
Can i do this over the existing NT-directory ?
(Afterwards restroring the registry from my ERD ?)

Isn't there a way to just install the NT-4 MBR,
without installing NT-itself ?

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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753086
Hi mvz:

Yes, go ahead and reinstall NT completely. At this point you don't know if any damage was done or whether the install is corrupt. If need be, just remove the prior install by emptying the folders and files.

It can be loaded over, however if you did not reset the Bios to non-PnP prior to installing NT before, there make be a problem doing so. Likewise, I would remove the NT files and directory.

It's not just a matter of installing the NT MBR, you have to reinstall boot loader at the same time and coordinate that with the Win95 install, which is why I posted the procedure above. I've been through the same thing on our machines before I realized there was something wrong with NT's install procedure per the book.

You can try just installing the NT MBR, but you might be back where you were before.
Dennis
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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753087
>>You can try just installing the NT MBR, but you might be back where you were before<<

As a matter of fact, i preferr the situation where i was before (only being able to boot NT4), above reinstalling NTagain.
I have done the stuff i needed in the installed W95 applications, and don't W95 anymore (install a second machine with w95)
In youre last line you say that installing only the MBR is possible, how do i do this ?

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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753088
Mvz, I don't mind helping you here, but this is going well beyond where we started in getting Win95 back for you. Now you don't want Win95, you want Win NT instead. You should have said that earlier.

Replacing the Master Boot Record
There are two problems that can occur in the sector containing the Master Boot Record:
·      The Master Boot Record might be corrupt.
·      The Partition Tables can be damaged.
 
On many x86-based computers, the fastest and simplest way to replace the Master Boot Record is to use an MS-DOS bootable floppy disk with the MS-DOS-based program Fdisk on it.
Caution   Do not use Fdisk to replace the Master Boot Record if you are using a:
·      Third-party translation program.
·      Dual-boot program that writes information in the area between the code and the Partition Table.
·      Third-party partitioning program that writes information in the area between the code and the Partition Table.
 
If you do not know whether you are using a program like this, you should not use this method.
To replace the Master Boot Record
 1.      Start the computer by using the MS-DOS bootable floppy disk. (You did run virus check and lock the floppy disk after you made it, didn’t you?)
 2.      At the A:\ prompt, type fdisk /mbr.
      This command replaces the Master Boot Record without altering the Partition Tables at the end of the sector. There is no message or response.
 
If there is a Windows NT disk signature in the Master Boot Record, it is overwritten by the new Master Boot Record. Overwriting the disk signature is a problem only if the disk contains partitions or logical drives that are members of volume sets or stripe sets. You can safely overwrite the disk signature when the disk has no volume sets or stripe sets, because Disk Administrator writes a new disk signature the next time you run it.
 
Note   The fdisk /mbr command requires MS-DOS 5.0 or later, and only works on the first hard disk on the computer.
 
If you have saved the Master Boot Record by using either DiskSave (x86-based computers only) or DiskProbe, you can use one of these utilities to replace the Master Boot Record. These utilities rewrite the entire sector, including the Partition Table. If you cannot start Windows NT from the hard disk, you can usually start the computer by using the Windows NT startup floppy disk if you want to use DiskProbe to replace the Master Boot Record.
If none of these methods are available to you, you can use a low-level disk editor to copy a good Master Boot Record from another disk to the startup disk (usually disk 0 on x86-based computers). Since the smallest disk write is a sector, when you copy the Master Boot Record from another disk, you are also copying the other disk’s Partition Table, which is not valid for the current disk. Therefore, you must first write down the partition information in the Master Boot Record that you are going to replace, starting from 0x1BE. You have to manually reenter the Partition Table information in hex format into the newly copied sector.
If you can start Windows NT by using the Windows NT startup floppy disk, you can use DiskMap to print a map of the disk. When you have copied a Master Boot Record from another computer of the same type (for example, another computer made by the same manufacturer with the same models of disk controllers), use DiskProbe to enter the information for the Partition Table. For information about DiskMap and DiskProbe, see Chapter 22, “Disk, File System, and Backup Utilities.”
After you have replaced the Master Boot Record, you should check that it is now correct. If the Master Boot Record is not correct after replacing it, there is either a hardware problem, such as incorrect SCSI termination, or (on x86-based computers) there is a virus in memory that is trapping INT 13 calls. You have to isolate and correct the problem that is corrupting the Master Boot Record.
Repairing the Partition Table
If you have not changed the Partition Table since you saved the Master Boot Record, replacing the Master Boot Record also replaces the Partition Table.
If you have made only minor changes to the Partition Table since you saved the Master Boot Record, you might be able to use the information on the backup to help you repair the Partition Table. For instance, if the only change you have made is to convert a partition from FAT to NTFS, just change the System ID byte from 06 to 07.
If your disk has more than one partition, and you did not save the Master Boot Record or write down the information, you might be able to reconstruct it. You can use DiskProbe to edit the Partition Table.
 
Note   If you will have to completely rebuild your Partition Table, either because of corruption or you had to copy the Master Boot Record from another computer, it might be safer to completely rebuild your disk. In this case, you should back up all of your files to tape (or another computer), recreate and reformat the partitions on the hard disk, and restore the data. If the disk with the invalid Partition Table contains your system or your boot partition, you will probably have to use the Windows NT startup floppy disk to start your computer.

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by:mvz121697
ID: 1753089
It is getting worse, and worse.....
I managed to destroy my MBR and partition table, just before i realised that everything is on my ERD-diskette except those 2. My disk is a 4,3 Gb with 2 partitions of 2 Gb, and it booted as a
1 partion disk with only 1 Gb. ;-((
The only thing i could do was buy an exactly the same disk,
fdisk it into the same partiotions, format both to FAT, and save the Mbr, and Boot record with DiskSave (from the resource Kit).
Then i installed these things on my original drive, and Yes, i got acces to my files.
No i am reinstalling all my applications, and things seem to go well.

For the time you invested, i will give you an A,
but because it helped me getting into a nightmare situation
(totaly due to my ignorance !) i have 1 last question:

How can i restore subkey's of the registry from my ERD,
without using the NT-startup-floppy's and the repair program ?

Greetings,
MvZ




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by:dew_associates
ID: 1753090
How can i restore subkey's of the registry from my ERD,
without using the NT-startup-floppy's and the repair program?

Okay, alot of this will depend on your expertise here.

Copy the reg to a clean folder and rename it TXT. Now open the reg.txt and go down to the subkeys you want to preserve. Copy those areas you want to preserve and paste them into a new file and name it new.reg and save it. Now close what ever you have used to do this editing, locate new.reg and click on it and if everything has been done correctly, these new items will be inserted into the NT reg.
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