gbentley
asked on
3DFX Conflicts/Lockups
I have asked this question previously (3DFX Problem), however the solution has not proven to be stable so I am starting the discussion again.
I've started this question at 80 points as thats all I have at the moment. If I get a good answer, that is one that is stable and explains WHY this conflict is occuring, I will increase the points awarded to whatever I have at time it is answered and has been stable for 7 days. So this will be at least another 40 points or so.
I bought an Orchid Voodoo card a few months back and have had nothing but trouble. It works in DOS based games if you close down Windows95 first. Under Windows it works about one time in 20-30 attempts. It also gives an error in GLQuake (glwCreateContect Failed) and won't run. This is very frustrating so any help will greatly appreciated.
Note: Pentium 166, 64 Meg RAM, AWE32 card, 4Meg Virge graphics card. DriveSpace 3 compressed disks. MS Sidewinder Pro. RadioTrack FM tuner card.
Also known is that Flight Simulator 98 works perfectly every time. Also Fatal Racing works every time. However every other Windows based game and all the demos from 3DFX lock up every time.
I've started this question at 80 points as thats all I have at the moment. If I get a good answer, that is one that is stable and explains WHY this conflict is occuring, I will increase the points awarded to whatever I have at time it is answered and has been stable for 7 days. So this will be at least another 40 points or so.
I bought an Orchid Voodoo card a few months back and have had nothing but trouble. It works in DOS based games if you close down Windows95 first. Under Windows it works about one time in 20-30 attempts. It also gives an error in GLQuake (glwCreateContect Failed) and won't run. This is very frustrating so any help will greatly appreciated.
Note: Pentium 166, 64 Meg RAM, AWE32 card, 4Meg Virge graphics card. DriveSpace 3 compressed disks. MS Sidewinder Pro. RadioTrack FM tuner card.
Also known is that Flight Simulator 98 works perfectly every time. Also Fatal Racing works every time. However every other Windows based game and all the demos from 3DFX lock up every time.
Sorry ,but I do not have the history on the previous Q.
Regarding GLQuake:
This is usually caused by trying to run an invalid video mode, i.e. 800x600 or too high a bit depth. Make sure you're in at 16 bit colour on your desktop, and first try running without command-line options. Alternatively you can try running with "-window" in the command line. In addition, using the older openGL32.DLL with the newer clients can cause this error. If you're using QuakeWorld add a folder in your quake directory and name it "qw" as in "quake\qw". GLQW will set-up the inverse pallette in the qw" folder. Also, as a last resort, set your 2d card refresh to 60hz.
If your card is not bad, one of these will solve the GLQuake problem.
Regarding the others, if the card is working in DOS but not Windows 95, then it is almost certainly a driver issue. You need to clean out all the old drivers and start from scratch. Since you are having so many problems, it would be best to start from a totally fresh install of Windows 95. That may sound extreme at first, but if you really want to solve the problem you need a clean system. Once you have cleaned out all the drivers and/or reinstalled Win95 you can start over.
THESE ARE THE DRIVERS YOU SHOULD BE USING FOR THE BEST PERFORMANCEAND BUG FREE GAMEPLAY. INSTALL IN THE ORDER THEY APPEAR.
1. DirectX from the CD-ROM that came with your 3DFX Voodoo video card or go to your video card manufacturers webpage and get the latest DirectX that they recommend.
2. Latest Voodoo Video Card drivers from your video card manufacturer. http://www.3dfx.com/download/sdk/index.html
3. Glide 2.43 Runtime End User Drivers.(or latest)
http://www.3dfx.com/download/sdk/index.html
If you do all this and it does not work as it should, it is possible that the card is bad amd I would puruse that with the manufacturer.
Regarding GLQuake:
This is usually caused by trying to run an invalid video mode, i.e. 800x600 or too high a bit depth. Make sure you're in at 16 bit colour on your desktop, and first try running without command-line options. Alternatively you can try running with "-window" in the command line. In addition, using the older openGL32.DLL with the newer clients can cause this error. If you're using QuakeWorld add a folder in your quake directory and name it "qw" as in "quake\qw". GLQW will set-up the inverse pallette in the qw" folder. Also, as a last resort, set your 2d card refresh to 60hz.
If your card is not bad, one of these will solve the GLQuake problem.
Regarding the others, if the card is working in DOS but not Windows 95, then it is almost certainly a driver issue. You need to clean out all the old drivers and start from scratch. Since you are having so many problems, it would be best to start from a totally fresh install of Windows 95. That may sound extreme at first, but if you really want to solve the problem you need a clean system. Once you have cleaned out all the drivers and/or reinstalled Win95 you can start over.
THESE ARE THE DRIVERS YOU SHOULD BE USING FOR THE BEST PERFORMANCEAND BUG FREE GAMEPLAY. INSTALL IN THE ORDER THEY APPEAR.
1. DirectX from the CD-ROM that came with your 3DFX Voodoo video card or go to your video card manufacturers webpage and get the latest DirectX that they recommend.
2. Latest Voodoo Video Card drivers from your video card manufacturer. http://www.3dfx.com/download/sdk/index.html
3. Glide 2.43 Runtime End User Drivers.(or latest)
http://www.3dfx.com/download/sdk/index.html
If you do all this and it does not work as it should, it is possible that the card is bad amd I would puruse that with the manufacturer.
ASKER
Thanks for the effort. I removed DirectX and all the driver files for the VooDoo card and then restarted and re-installed as per your instructions. No Go.
I have been around the re-install route quite a few times now. It doesn't do the job. I actually did a complete bare disk re-install of Win95 in november. It did no good re the VooDoo card.
A new piece of information. The machine now locks up if you try to run the DXTOOL.EXE or the DXSETUP.EXE that come with Flight Sim 98.
I have been around the re-install route quite a few times now. It doesn't do the job. I actually did a complete bare disk re-install of Win95 in november. It did no good re the VooDoo card.
A new piece of information. The machine now locks up if you try to run the DXTOOL.EXE or the DXSETUP.EXE that come with Flight Sim 98.
I would say than either the card itself is bad (happened to me) or there is another hardware or software problem with your system.
ASKER
I would be suprised if the card is bad as I have had on rare occasions seen all the software work. This has worked for a whole day. The next day the machine was started as usual and nothing worked on the VooDoo card again and hasn't since. As well, the DOS stuff works as does FS98.
I know it seems to be a problem with a conflict. That is what I am trying to get solved. Any hints on exactly how one would find WHAT software or hardware is causing the conflict.
It does seem to be tied up with drivers as I took the card and my PC to the supplier of the card and they made it work in some games(GLQuake for example).
The problem is that this was with NO drivers at all loaded. There aren't many games that will run without any Windows drivers for the card and as soon as you load any version of the drivers, it fails again.
As stated in the original question, the aim is not to make it run GLQuake or some specific game, but all the VooDoo capable games. FS98, Flight Unlimited 2, GLQuake, Motorace, Pod, Wipeout, etc.
I know it seems to be a problem with a conflict. That is what I am trying to get solved. Any hints on exactly how one would find WHAT software or hardware is causing the conflict.
It does seem to be tied up with drivers as I took the card and my PC to the supplier of the card and they made it work in some games(GLQuake for example).
The problem is that this was with NO drivers at all loaded. There aren't many games that will run without any Windows drivers for the card and as soon as you load any version of the drivers, it fails again.
As stated in the original question, the aim is not to make it run GLQuake or some specific game, but all the VooDoo capable games. FS98, Flight Unlimited 2, GLQuake, Motorace, Pod, Wipeout, etc.
You know, try the next thing: enter BIOS setup, Advanced Chipset
setting and increase slightly DRAM Read/Write timings. It'll not
hurt, but can cure many problems.
setting and increase slightly DRAM Read/Write timings. It'll not
hurt, but can cure many problems.
Which 3dfx card is it and what drivers are you using?
ASKER
It is an Orchid VooDoo. I will get the exact version numbers of the drivers for you tonight.
Meanwhile a bit of evidence. Last night I got home and my housemate was playing GLQuake. He had benn doing some other work on the PC and just tried it and it ran. However, we closed GLQuake and then attempted to run it again and it failed with the usual error(see above). I restarted several times and was unable to get it to work.
Regarding RAM timings. Won't this slow the PC down.
Meanwhile a bit of evidence. Last night I got home and my housemate was playing GLQuake. He had benn doing some other work on the PC and just tried it and it ran. However, we closed GLQuake and then attempted to run it again and it failed with the usual error(see above). I restarted several times and was unable to get it to work.
Regarding RAM timings. Won't this slow the PC down.
Will slow down slightly. Just for try. If you'll see, that nothing
changed, put them back.
changed, put them back.
ASKER
Exact name of the card is an "Orchid Righteous 3D"
On the subject of RAM timing. I checked the wait states and they are already at the slowest setting.
Drivers.
3DFX drivers - Control Panel/System
3DFXPS.DLL v1.0.0.1
MSVRCT.DLL v4.20.6164
DD3DFX32.DLL v4.10.01.0014
DD3DFX16.DLL v4.10.01.0014
DD3DFX.DRV v4.10.01.0014
FXMEMMAP.VXD v4.10.01.0014
These are the drivers after loading the latest from the 3DFX site. That is version 2.13
The DirectX versions as reported by the DirectX Control Panel applet are.
Direct3D 4.03.00.10.1096 DirectX 2
DirectDraw 4.05.00.0155 DirectX 5
DirectInput 4.05.00.0155 DirectX 5
DirectPlay 4.05.00.0155 DirectX 5
DirectSound 4.05.00.0155 DirectX 5
On the subject of RAM timing. I checked the wait states and they are already at the slowest setting.
Drivers.
3DFX drivers - Control Panel/System
3DFXPS.DLL v1.0.0.1
MSVRCT.DLL v4.20.6164
DD3DFX32.DLL v4.10.01.0014
DD3DFX16.DLL v4.10.01.0014
DD3DFX.DRV v4.10.01.0014
FXMEMMAP.VXD v4.10.01.0014
These are the drivers after loading the latest from the 3DFX site. That is version 2.13
The DirectX versions as reported by the DirectX Control Panel applet are.
Direct3D 4.03.00.10.1096 DirectX 2
DirectDraw 4.05.00.0155 DirectX 5
DirectInput 4.05.00.0155 DirectX 5
DirectPlay 4.05.00.0155 DirectX 5
DirectSound 4.05.00.0155 DirectX 5
Your problem is self evident in your last posting. All your drivers are Directx5 except for your Direct3D driver which is DirectX2. Most new games out need at least directx3 if not 5. Try re-installing directx5, it should be on the flight sim 98 disk.
The reason it locks up is because it is looking for direct3d5 and is finding direct3d2. If you fully upgrade to directx5 it should fix the problem and the lock ups when using the voodoo card.
Good Luck....
The reason it locks up is because it is looking for direct3d5 and is finding direct3d2. If you fully upgrade to directx5 it should fix the problem and the lock ups when using the voodoo card.
Good Luck....
ASKER
This response does not explain why Flight Simulator 98 does run with these settings.
Anyway, I have installed the DirectX 5 drivers (all of them), despite the fact that various people advise NOT to upgrade the 3D drivers when prompted, which is why the versions are as above. The problem is exactly the same.
Now, can we get off the bandwagon of driver versions. I have tried EVERY combination of versions of DirectX, versions of the 3DFX drivers (including the latest version 3.01) and variations on the settings in the DirectX Control Panel Applet. None of them work with Motorace or POD or GLQuake in a stable fashion.
I have found in the last couple of days that if I run FS98 then exit and run POD or GLQuake, they will usually run. Not always! This also sometimes happens if you run another program. Picture Publisher sometimes does the trick. Maybe this is a clue to someone about what these programs might do that makes things work.
Regarding GLQuake, foxman, I have tried all this before. No Go. mlr, I would appreciate if you could find that information, it sounds like it may be the place to start.
Anyway, I have installed the DirectX 5 drivers (all of them), despite the fact that various people advise NOT to upgrade the 3D drivers when prompted, which is why the versions are as above. The problem is exactly the same.
Now, can we get off the bandwagon of driver versions. I have tried EVERY combination of versions of DirectX, versions of the 3DFX drivers (including the latest version 3.01) and variations on the settings in the DirectX Control Panel Applet. None of them work with Motorace or POD or GLQuake in a stable fashion.
I have found in the last couple of days that if I run FS98 then exit and run POD or GLQuake, they will usually run. Not always! This also sometimes happens if you run another program. Picture Publisher sometimes does the trick. Maybe this is a clue to someone about what these programs might do that makes things work.
Regarding GLQuake, foxman, I have tried all this before. No Go. mlr, I would appreciate if you could find that information, it sounds like it may be the place to start.
ASKER
Adjusted points to 150
If you have exhausted all the driver possibilities and extensively tested this card under all many different scenarios (sound like you have, BTW), the next thing to try is a new card. It seems like this one is bad.
ASKER
foxman, Can you then explain why the card works perfectly with FS98, Fatal Racer, and the other DOS games. It is not intermittent with these games. Or, what does running another program do to cause it to usually work.
I am loathe to send it off for replacement unless I am certain as if it is a conflict with my PC, this won't solve it and I'll be back wher I started.
I am going to be away for a week so if anyone has any suggestions, it will be a while before I can test them.
Thanks All for the assistance so far.
I am loathe to send it off for replacement unless I am certain as if it is a conflict with my PC, this won't solve it and I'll be back wher I started.
I am going to be away for a week so if anyone has any suggestions, it will be a while before I can test them.
Thanks All for the assistance so far.
Here's what I can tell you. My first Monster 3D card was bad. It worked ok in some games. Direct3D games were fine. It exhibited what is referred to as "flickering triangles" or excessive tearing in GLQuake and some DOS 3dfx games. I sent it back and got a new one and everything is fine. No I can't explain to you why yours works in some and does not work in others. I can only tell you that if it is not working as it is supposed to in all games, it may be bad.
Another experience that I had was when I upgraded my system to 64MB of RAM, I got some bad SIMMS. GLQuake would not work properly. It would load at first but then at some point I would get errors or crashes. Sometimes it would not load at all. I did not test other games because I knew it was the memory because that was the only variable that I had changed. The point is that yes it could be another problem with your system. If you have extensively tested and diagnosed your system and it runs in a VERY STABLE fashion with Windows 95, then your system is probably ok and I would contact the manufacturer about replacing the card. You really have nothing to lose at this point.
Another experience that I had was when I upgraded my system to 64MB of RAM, I got some bad SIMMS. GLQuake would not work properly. It would load at first but then at some point I would get errors or crashes. Sometimes it would not load at all. I did not test other games because I knew it was the memory because that was the only variable that I had changed. The point is that yes it could be another problem with your system. If you have extensively tested and diagnosed your system and it runs in a VERY STABLE fashion with Windows 95, then your system is probably ok and I would contact the manufacturer about replacing the card. You really have nothing to lose at this point.
In your system description you mention:
4Meg Virge graphics card
3dfx Voodoo cards should NOT be used with graphics cards that have 3d features on them. Replace this card with a good 2d card (something simple from Trident or STB will be fine) and your problems should go away.
4Meg Virge graphics card
3dfx Voodoo cards should NOT be used with graphics cards that have 3d features on them. Replace this card with a good 2d card (something simple from Trident or STB will be fine) and your problems should go away.
Ha! That is a joke. What are you talking about? I have been using a Monster 3D with a Stealth 3D for nearly a year now. My other system has a Monster 3D and a generic S3 ViRGE. A 3dfx card will work with an S3 ViRGE just fine and probably works with 99% of the video cards on the market. What you say is simply not true. Check your facts first.
ASKER
Thanks Guys.
I think I will have to send it back. Any further comments appreciated.
I think I will have to send it back. Any further comments appreciated.
Glad to hear of your lucky streak foxman. I wouldn't have mentioned it if it hadn't been pertinant. Give it a shot gbentley. No skin off my nose. I'm just trying to be helpful passing along what I know and have experienced. Using any 3d featured card with a 3dfx card is NOT suggested and will cause problems with Direct3d and Glide. I wish I could quote you a source but it ain't worth my time. Good luck guys.
I have had similar problems.
The machine I am on right now has a Monster 3D and a Stealth 3D (they don't work as well together as a 2D only card.. but the monster is a cable pass-thru, not PCI.. so it works great).
Anyway.. as sys admin for a large company, a lot of stuff comes in. It is not nuts to get a bad card, which is what I think yours is. Call the manufacturer, tell them you've had the card for not too long, and it has had constant problems. Be firm. Let them know all the anguish you've gone through. Tell them you want a card with a newer ROM.
On another note, if I were you, I'd save up some money and purchase a new hard drive. It is a very bad idea to compress your hard drive.. especially if you would like a good frame-rate with GL Quake/Quake II or any other game.
Essentially, your card is not fully compatible with Windows. Simple as that, methinks. Besides, what would it hurt to get a newer ROM?
The machine I am on right now has a Monster 3D and a Stealth 3D (they don't work as well together as a 2D only card.. but the monster is a cable pass-thru, not PCI.. so it works great).
Anyway.. as sys admin for a large company, a lot of stuff comes in. It is not nuts to get a bad card, which is what I think yours is. Call the manufacturer, tell them you've had the card for not too long, and it has had constant problems. Be firm. Let them know all the anguish you've gone through. Tell them you want a card with a newer ROM.
On another note, if I were you, I'd save up some money and purchase a new hard drive. It is a very bad idea to compress your hard drive.. especially if you would like a good frame-rate with GL Quake/Quake II or any other game.
Essentially, your card is not fully compatible with Windows. Simple as that, methinks. Besides, what would it hurt to get a newer ROM?
Just one more thing...
Any time you purchase hardware, install it immediately. If it does not meet your expectations, return it immediately. If the hardware is non-functional, or does not perform as expected, call the hardware manufacturer and let them know the problem before you return it.
Purchasing hardware a month before Christmas, and not opening it until Christmas is a bad idea (I learned this the hard way). Don't let things go for too long before returning the merchandise.
Any time you purchase hardware, install it immediately. If it does not meet your expectations, return it immediately. If the hardware is non-functional, or does not perform as expected, call the hardware manufacturer and let them know the problem before you return it.
Purchasing hardware a month before Christmas, and not opening it until Christmas is a bad idea (I learned this the hard way). Don't let things go for too long before returning the merchandise.
ASKER
One last bit of information before I pull the card out and send it back.
I have found that if I start my PC, run Solitaire for a few minutes, and then start POD, it works around 98% of the time. Motoracer also works, FS98 also works. This holds until you shut down. I had it going for the last 5 days and it ran every time I tried.
Also, I have found that Need for Speed 2 (not the special edition) will not run at all. I have uninstalled/reinstalled 5 or 6 times. No go.
Is the card bad or not?
Comments?
I have found that if I start my PC, run Solitaire for a few minutes, and then start POD, it works around 98% of the time. Motoracer also works, FS98 also works. This holds until you shut down. I had it going for the last 5 days and it ran every time I tried.
Also, I have found that Need for Speed 2 (not the special edition) will not run at all. I have uninstalled/reinstalled 5 or 6 times. No go.
Is the card bad or not?
Comments?
VERY strange. Try to reseat your cards: video card and Orchid.
Also try to reseat cables. Another this: when boot, press F8 and
select Logged boot (BOOTLOG.TXT). Post all FAILed lines here.
Also try to reseat cables. Another this: when boot, press F8 and
select Logged boot (BOOTLOG.TXT). Post all FAILed lines here.
Oh guy !!! i think u should reinstall your whole machine, cause it looks like u have a problem registring some dll's or something like that. reinstall win95,( without deinstalling it), remove the 3d card, put it into another slot, and set it up again
ASKER
busuka, I will try that tonight. Thanks Again.
datadesign, I have already done a complete re-install on a bare hard disk. There was no difference at all afterwards. I don't intend to do this again in the near future as it requires re-installation/reconfigur
datadesign, I have already done a complete re-install on a bare hard disk. There was no difference at all afterwards. I don't intend to do this again in the near future as it requires re-installation/reconfigur
gbentley, I don't remember if I already suggested to take DX5
Control Panel applet. Do you have it ?
Control Panel applet. Do you have it ?
ASKER
busuka, Yes thanks.
ASKER
libido - Compressing jhard dirves is not a good idea unless you are using Drivespace 3. Under this scenario, you actually get a speed increase - albiet with a hit on processor overhead. This sounds strange but I did the test.
I don't think it will affect my frame rates as with 64 Meg, I should be loading everything into memory anyway.
To All. Thanks for all the help. As you would have noted in one of my last posts, I can make the card work with a little fiddling, so I'm going to leave it at that for the moment. Anyway there are VooDoo2 cards out there and you can run two of those!
I'll start saving my cash again.
Anyway thanks again to all who have contributed.
Busuka - If you would post an answer, I will award you some points (say 50?) as you have made the greatest effort to solve the problem in a constructive fashion.
I don't think it will affect my frame rates as with 64 Meg, I should be loading everything into memory anyway.
To All. Thanks for all the help. As you would have noted in one of my last posts, I can make the card work with a little fiddling, so I'm going to leave it at that for the moment. Anyway there are VooDoo2 cards out there and you can run two of those!
I'll start saving my cash again.
Anyway thanks again to all who have contributed.
Busuka - If you would post an answer, I will award you some points (say 50?) as you have made the greatest effort to solve the problem in a constructive fashion.
ASKER CERTIFIED SOLUTION
membership
This solution is only available to members.
To access this solution, you must be a member of Experts Exchange.
ASKER
As I can't figure out how to reduce the points on this question, I guess you get the lot for your efforts.
I'm afraid that this is late, but this was discussion between me,
other experts and Linda (from EE side) that there is no way to
reduce points on question, only enlarge them. I thought you knew
this, that's why I locked the question. Usually you post into
Customer Service area 0 pts question "Please remove my question"
and inside you put question ID. Then, after question is removed,
you post X pts. empty question "For <expert_name> only" in the SAME area
that your original question was. Expert answers on it, you grade
it. Voila.
other experts and Linda (from EE side) that there is no way to
reduce points on question, only enlarge them. I thought you knew
this, that's why I locked the question. Usually you post into
Customer Service area 0 pts question "Please remove my question"
and inside you put question ID. Then, after question is removed,
you post X pts. empty question "For <expert_name> only" in the SAME area
that your original question was. Expert answers on it, you grade
it. Voila.
I heard of problems with Orchid Righteous 3D (is yours?) cards and faulty components fitted, causing faults. Is yours a righteous 3d? If so, I will get the old articles out and see if the problems correspond with yours..
I'm sure there's a stable solution.
Cheers L-)