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Posted on 1998-03-28
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This is in reference to http://www.experts-exchange.com/Q.10044193 by JohnE.

I have some new information guys.  I have been working nearly around the clock last
week, but when i got home last night I Netscaped around.  Upon leaving Netscape,
something BUMPED in the dark.

During the exit, my hard drive was busy and it just switched off and clicked, clicked,
clicked as the drive spun down.  This was a first to see for me.  It almost seemed like
the SCSI adapter decided to power down right in middle of a write.  Damn.  In doing
so, the keyboard and screen locked up somewhat...but after hitting CNTL-ALT-DEL,
many times, it finally rebooted.  Interestingly during the "SOFT" reboot,  the computer
ran through the BIOS and then it hit the Adaptec 1.25 Bios, when it saw the Quantum
XP34300W Windows 95 hard drive on SCSI ID 6,  the first SCSI device and boot
SCSI device, the system froze again and failed to get to the other devices.  I had to
hard boot....powered off.   When the machine went through again, it booted into
Windows 95 successfully.   Damn, damn, damn.

Before you answer, I want you to keep in mind two things:
         1.  I would really prefer to load Win95 again as a last option though reloading
                       drivers/bios/etc. would be no problem.
         2.  I leave my computer on most of the time.  I don't know about this, but it could
                       possibly be a heat related thing.  I leave my computer case off most of
                       the time, though the system is dust free.  I notice that the drives do give
                       off some heat, but I wouldn't think enought to shut down as such.

Last night I noticed that Hercules just put out a new BIOS for their Thriller 3D card.
I downloaded it last night (small file) and installed it successfully.  I then reinstalled
the Thriller 3D Windows 95 driver.  I have the latest versions of everything except
for the Adaptec 2940UW BIOS which  is 1.25 instead of 1.33 as it is supposedly
more stable.

I do have all screen savers and all power management turned off currently.  The
problem did start occuring, however, shortly after utilizing the EZ SCSI 4.0
power management software 3 monthes back.  Even though it is all turned off
now, things seem to be going bump since then.  I still am thinking their could
possibly be some relation between this and the reason why Linux  couldn't
load on my other Quantum drive on SCSI ID #5 giving the partition numbers + 10
(hidden) after a successful load of Red Hat 5.0.  This is a lot of stuff and truly,
truly, truly appreciate the help!!!!!!

JohnE
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Question by:johnike
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by:dew_associates
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John, your going to think I'm nuts, but uninstall the drivers and software for the video card and select a VGA adapter only. Yup, I know this is a PIA, but give it a try. I'm not convinced it's EzScsi 4.0. I use this all of the time on pre 1.25, 1.25 and 1.33 without any problems. My gut (for whatever that's worth) tells me that it's the video drivers.
Dennis
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by:johnike
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I will try this and get back to you, though problem occured 3 monthes ago and I
got Thriller 3D card about 1 month ago.  Timing makes it ....not seem feasible.
It is getting somewhat more frequent, however, and Friday night was first time I
saw the thing smoke in front of me.  I need to backup the machine more seriously.

JohnE

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by:smeebud
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We [my partner and I at Custom Computers] have recently had two HDD's that made that kind of noice. We use WD's. At there site was a new warning. ".....if you HDD makes this
clicking sound, send it back for a replacement as it IS  bad...."

But that's Western Digital???

Bud

I don't think you nut's Dennis:::)))
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by:smeebud
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Oh yes,
"Rule of Thumb".
Never click your shutdown while your HDD is writting.

Bud
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by:johnike
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Sorry I haven't gotten back to you in a few days as I've been working around the
clock for last 2.5 weeks.  I am a consultant for Lucent Technologies and have
been crunch developing a UNIX/C++ system.  It is almost over YEEEESSSSS.
Can't wait for some sleep.

In terms of fixing this machine, I tried what you said Dennis, but couldn't tell if it
helped as the problem is somewhat sporatic.  I can say that I installed the same
exact video card type on my wifes machine in exactly the same way with exactly
the same OS on it, and she has had not even one problem.

I had a response on the former thread that sounded very interesting.  Please read:
--------
By evansj


       I've played around with the 2940 Adapters for awhile. It still sounds like a termination/cable issue. Make sure you are not double terminated - the very last SCSI device in the chain only. The termination for the drives may be active on both drives. Check the jumper settings on the drives themselves, and ensure that both don't have termination enabled. 2940's are real susceptible to multi-terminated devices. Second 2940's are susceptible to bus noise caused by heating of the gray cabling that most PC's use.  What happens is the more devices on the bus, the more unstable the bus becomes as the cable heats up. It usually shows itself as a lock up.  I ran into the problem at HP while setting up test software. The program ran fine for awhile, but extended testing locked the bus after say 2-6 hours. You may have to use an external type cabling (twisted pair) - the multi-colored kind. Second, disable your pagefile, scandisk and defrag, then restore your pagefile. Third possibilty, check the voltage on your hard drives. Make sure you have adequate voltage. Most hard drives will FOC if the voltage falls below the threshold; usually they will  try to spin up several times, but a lot of times they just stay spun down. Secondly, if the PWA/HDA (Printed Wire Assembly/Hard  Drive Assembly) has a legitimate problem, it may cause problems. Here's another thought, ASPI hides certain errors from the Host, without reporting only the most serious errors. Windows will run until it tries to access the disk. Just because you 128MB  of RAM does not prevent it from doing so, causing program execution to halt. It may report an error, or it may not.
-------

Reading the part of the cabling and 2-6 hour failure may sound a bit familiar.  It could
also be termination.  Maybe this weekend I will be done with the work project and
be able to spend a day trying to pull my system apart and try to re-understand
the methods of termination.   Even though Dennis helped me before on this, I still
feel a bit shaky on figuring it all out.  I am a good develper, but this hardware stuff...dooh.
I hope that evansj can further explain some of these problems and how I can better
track them down.  He wrote interesting stuff, but not recommended reading for a
somewhat SCSI hardware novice.

JohnE






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by:dew_associates
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Most of the newer drives John are self terminating via software. If you look back at the old ?, you already verified the jumper issue.
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by:evansj
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SCSI is ID prioritized. Your boot drive should be zero, the Linux volume,  one. The CD-ROM and DAT backup
      should have your high SCSI ID's.  Remove all terminating jumpers from the two drives. I'm not up on
      Quantum's, but check for a row of pins on the board. It may have designation TE,TP,TP,SS, etc. Remove
      jumper on any TE set of pins. Second, check the jumpers on the DAT and CD-ROM. However, whatever
      device is PHYSICALLY last in the daisy chain,  must have termination. You can have ID 6 first, ID 4 second,
      ID3 third, and ID0 last in the chain. Whatever device is ID0 in this case would be terminated.  What I would
      recommend is:
      boot drive = SCSI ID 0
      Linux Drive = SCSI ID 1
      CD-ROM = SCSI ID 5
      DAT Backup = SCSI ID 6
      This gives room to add more drives. During boot up press ctrl-a to access 2940 BIOS settings. Set boot drive
      to SCSI ID 0. Disable SCAM support (Sometimes causes problems). If there are both external and internal
      devices hooked to the 2940, disable termination. Else leave it alone. Also set transfer rate back to 20 if you
      were set to 40. See if this helps. If it does let me know so I can reissue as an answer.
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by:evansj
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That sounds electro-mechanical, like a defective Hard drive. Though I wouldn't rule out a faulty PC power supply, or loaded line in your house. Most folks would be suprised how much the current in their house fluctuates. Move the PC to another location and see if you get this problem.

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by:smeebud
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smeebud                      Date: Sunday, March 29 1998 - 08:50AM PST

We [my partner and I at Custom Computers] have recently had two HDD's
that made that kind of noice. We use WD's. At there site was a new
warning. ".....if you HDD makes this
clicking sound, send it back for a replacement as it IS  bad...."

But that's Western Digital???

Bud

Clicking HDD. They are supposed to be quieter these days.
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by:johnike
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I have a full UPS setup for the system and am plugged in.  It is in good shape
so don't think input voltage is the problem.  I hadn't tried reloading linux since I had
the SCSI Id's switched around.  Maybe that is what is causing some of the problem,
but it takes a bit of work to correct that.  I would rather to reason out other ideas first
though keep this one in mind.  Dennis took so much time and effort trying to get
it into the current configuration to help optimise it for me as per new Adaptec
Bios capabilities.  Maybe it isn't taking to those capabilities well.  I do not know.

I will contact Quantum about the drive...this is something I had not considered and
it may be true that the drive is faulty.  But it is unlikely that both drives are (ruling
out commonality between problems---between disk shutdown/failure and paritioning
failures after loading Red Hat 5.0).  I will check on their site and send them a
letter of interest.

It is hard to pin down this problem, I but appreciate the help.  I want a computer that
works.

JohnE

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by:dew_associates
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Well John, when things go bump in the dark and begin making noises that didn't make before, the first place to look is a hardware failure!
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by:aquar
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May be there are some bad cluster in your hardisk.
If the first cluster of HDD is bad. It will not be indentify by the scsi card sometime.
Don't try to low-level-format it, it will occur to the Hdd bad( some of they like segate).
Try to check the hdd by segate's hdd program like DM(DM1) DISCWIZARD and then user the advance  ->choice the hdd of yours->
choice NO of fast format -> yes of delete all data.
Then you can check the HDD ,(This can only work in segate hdd , if others want to use it, you need to plug the segate hdd in the
slave or second PRIMARY).
Try it.

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by:johnike
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Dang.  I am still working around the clock and haven't had time to follow up well.  Sorry for this those who have been trying.  I will check out their site for this software.  I don't want to throw good money after bad on this drive if it is bad, but will check it out.  I have run the low level Verify provided by EZSCSI utility.  It said that it found no bad sectors.  I will not say question answered until figured out for sure.  Thanks for info.


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by:aquar
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fdisk /mbr?

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by:isaacguy
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It is possible that it is a heat related issue, because of the fact that the case is off all of the time.  The case is on the computer because it needs it to provide proper ventilation.  If you remove the case, you can screw of the ari-flow inside the case and cause many heat-related problems!
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by:johnike
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I will try.  I have had the case off for a few monthes.

Don't know what you mean by fdisk /mbr.

I have Red Hat Linux on first sector of second hard drive, not master boot
record.
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by:dew_associates
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Hi John!  I didn't abandoned you, I just thought I'd lay back awhile and let some of these ideas float through here awhile. I don't see anything wonderfully new though. Anyway, where does this drive stand at the moment, any strange noises or you just can't get it to run?
Dennis
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by:kwe
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I think it is not good to leave the drive on all of the time. Try power management and give your drive a rest when you leave it turned on. I had a drive that periodically made that noise and it is still working. The fact that it is clicking leads me to believe it is entirely mechanical. The computer power supply is pretty tolerable to power line fluctuations believe it or not. I don't buy the SCSI incompatability issue at all.
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by:johnike
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Dooh...I think power management may have been a culpret in this.
Dennis, I agree with you.  I thought this would be a somewhat easy question,
but haven't gotten anywhere really.  Figured there was some known bug somewhere.
But in part it is my fault as I have been working for Lucent way too hard.  This
will go on for one more week, then I should be able to spend my nights goofing
with this machine.  There may be something wrong with the disk.  I hadn't considered
that originally, but verify seemed to work.  Still...
I seem to get into these tough to answer questions.  My other machine I easily
loaded Win 95 and Red Hat onto about a week ago...in about 2 hours.  At least
I am not out in the cold now without my Linux.

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by:evansj
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Since I have not heard from you about my comment I wil lsubmit this as the answer:

SCSI is ID prioritized. Your boot drive should be zero, the Linux volume,  one. The CD-ROM and DAT backup should have your high SCSI ID's.  Remove all terminating jumpers from the two drives. I'm not up on  Quantum's, but check for a row of pins on the board. It may have designation TE,TP,TP,SS, etc. Remove  jumper on any TE set of pins. Second, check the jumpers on the DAT and CD-ROM. However, whatever device is PHYSICALLY last in the daisy chain,  must have termination. You can have ID 6 first, ID 4 second, ID3 third, and ID0 last in the chain. Whatever device is ID0 in this case would be terminated.  What I would recommend is:
            boot drive = SCSI ID 0
            Linux Drive = SCSI ID 1
            CD-ROM = SCSI ID 5
            DAT Backup = SCSI ID 6
This gives room to add more drives. During boot up press ctrl-a to access 2940 BIOS settings. Set boot drive to SCSI ID 0. Disable SCAM support (Sometimes causes problems). If there are both external and internal devices hooked to the 2940, disable termination. Else leave it alone. Also set transfer rate back to 20 if  you  were set to 40. See if this helps. Finally change the gray cabling to an external type cable (colored type) because the cabling will heat up and cause SCSI go Boom!
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by:smeebud
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johnike,
One question,
Does you HDD make a clicking sound, [not like the writting sound]?

Bud
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by:dew_associates
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Hi John, when your ready, let me know and we'll try and run some tests on it!
Dennis
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by:johnike
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Thanks guys...I will be available this weekend....strangely it hasn't frozen as much
lately...don't know why...don't know why at all.  No changes have occured except
a video card driver upgrade...doooh...maybe this was it, but it is still happening.
I have been rebooting my machine every night at least once too which is different
than in the past.  The clicking sound only happened once and NO it was definately
not a good sound...more like an engine coming to a grinding cruncing halt and then
the drive spinning down due to velocity alone...very spooky sound.

Also thank you evansj, but Dennis had really worked that issue in the past to get
to this configuration.  I don't know, but don't think it is the problem.  I will check your
idea out...but until this weekend I will not submit your's as the answer.
Sorry guys this is taking so long, but I have been working SO hard and this is
going to take much more serious thought than initially anticipated.  This weekend
will be the first weekend off since this has begun.  Thanks for your patience.
John

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hankc earned 100 total points
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johnike
I had a western digital HD that made a similar sound to what you described. Sent it back and they confirmed it was crashing and replaced it. Do close up the case though because it can cause freaky problems with improper cooling.
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by:johnike
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I am going to follow up with this W.D. failures...can't find anything else.
I wil get in touch with their customer service and relay to them my
experience.  At this point, I can't see anything else.  My wife has very
similar compter with same Graphics board...thought different Hard drives.
Hers works without any fail and mine dies.  I set up both machines.
I considered this answered...at least for now.  Thanks everybody for their help.
JohnE

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by:hankc
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John, do you work for the same Lucent that makes the LT Win Modem? If so do you know if they have an answering machine program for it?  I tried the SVHome software that someone else recommended but it isn't comaptable ( or mabe I'm not compatable).  Please let me know at hcrick@tstar.net
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