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Login to NT 4.0 with MSClient 3.0 and IPX ?

Posted on 1998-07-16
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Last Modified: 2013-12-23
Hope anybody can help us ....

This is the problem:

We have updated our Primary and Backup Domain Controller from Win NT 3.51 to Win NT 4.0 SP3 (German Versions).
The controlling-PC's in our production of energy-meters have MSDOS 6.2 and MSClient 3.0 with the IPX-protocol, because there is more free conventional DOS-memory with IPX than with TCP/IP.

Since our Servers are running NT 4.0 it is not possible to login with MSClient and IPX.
WFW3.11 and Win NT Workstation with IPX are able to login.

So, we decided to install MSClient (the files shipped with Win NTServer 4.0, directory MSClient) and TCP/IP.
We had to install the standard-redirector because of the DOS-conventional memory would be too low with the extended redirector.

Our problem is that the MSClients under TCP/IP are loosing the network connections (printers and shares) after some minutes.
Is this an effect because of the standard-redirector?
If we have to use the extended redirector, it would be only possible with IPX-protocol (DOS-memory!).
But we can´t login with IPX.
These problems are a little bit urgent, because the production of our energy-meters is very disturbed.
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Question by:moosach
12 Comments
 

Expert Comment

by:Deucalion
ID: 1568415
Can your DOS Workstation browse other Workgroup member when using IPX?
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Expert Comment

by:spacebrain
ID: 1568416
can you post a common autoexec.bat file from a dos station?
where i work we logon to the NT4 domain controller with ipx only and the basic rediredtor
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Accepted Solution

by:
snimmaga earned 150 total points
ID: 1568417
I have a small correction to make here.  MS Network Client 3.0 for DOS, comes with all IPX, IP, NetBEUI and DLC protocols though you can use any 3 of them simultaneously.  So, you can still go with IPX.  Now, as you said, if you are using IP with the basic redirector you should not be able to logon to the NT domain at all.  Only the Full redirector under IP allows domain logons.  If you are connected to the network, that is because you are using the userid/password combination that is known to the Nt domain controller.  This is a security problem in NT and is already noted long time ago.
So, my point is, you can still use IPX.  I am not sure why you are not using it.  If you use TCP/IP, then you HAVE to go with the Full redirector unless you don't want to logon to the domain.

Loss of network connections can occur when you use any version of the redirector, but the basic redirector, invoked by using the "NET START BASIC" command, is most likely to have this problem. The problem seems to be caused by a timing issue in the NetBEUI protocol. It may also be related to the network buffer size because it occurs when data is being sent over the wire. In testing, this problem didn't occur unless the system was running under the conditions listed above; however, the problem may occur
when a system is not under any stress, but this is very rare.
 
Other factors that can cause connection problems include the following:
  - Network cards: Some network cards are more prone to these problems than others.
  - Machine speed: The slower the machine, the more likely that its network connections may be lost.
 
This problem usually originates with the server but affects clients only.

Avoiding the Problem
--------------------
 The following steps may help prevent this problem:
 
 - Increase FILES= to 128 or higher in the CONFIG.SYS file.
 
 - Increase FCBS= to 25 or higher in the CONFIG.SYS file.
 
 - Increase Sessions= to 20 or higher in the PROTOCOL.INI file.
 
 - Set NCBS= to 40 in the PROTOCOL.INI file.
 
 - Set NetHeapSize= to 52 in the [386Enh] section of the
        SYSTEM.INI file.
 
 - Set TimerCriticalSection= to 5000 or higher in the [386Enh]
        section of the SYSTEM.INI file.
 
Good luck..
Srini.
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Author Comment

by:moosach
ID: 1568418
Thanks for the info srini,

I'll check if I can solve the problem with this help. In the meanwhile, because spacebrain asked for it :-). here my configuration files. Maybe you can see something anyway. (I wrote the following before I read your reply, srini ...And I just don't want to waste it ;-) ... )

...............................................................

Here are my common config.sys and autoexec.bat:


DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE /NOEMS
Lastdrive=Z
BUFFERS=30,0
FILES=100
DOS=HIGH,UMB
COUNTRY=049,,C:\DOS\COUNTRY.SYS
shell=c:\dos\command.com /E:512 /P
STACKS=9,256
DEVICE=C:\NET\ifshlp.sys




LH C:\DOS\MOUSE
PROMPT $P$G
PATH=C:\NET;C:\DOS;C:\
SET TEMP=C:\TEMP
SET TMP=C:\TEMP
LH C:\DOS\DOSKEY /INSERT
LH KEYB GR,,C:\DOS\KEYBOARD.SYS

C:\NET\net initialize
C:\NET\nwlink
C:\NET\net start
c:\net\net use j: \\nbgh002a\daten password /persistent:no



With IPX and standard redirector the DOS-stations loose the connection to j: after some minutes, even if no other software works on a station.
With IPX and extended redirector I got this answer after the net use....:   error 58; the network does not response correctly
(I hope that I have translated our german error correctly).



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Author Comment

by:moosach
ID: 1568419
Hi Srini,
thank you again for your answers.
I' ve tested your suggestions (Avoiding the problem), but my connections to network drives were cut after some minutes.
Perhaps I made the sessions=20 and NCBS=40 entries in the protocol.ini in the wrong section.
I made the entries in the [network.setup] section.
Srini, don`t let me be misunderstood: I don't want to logon to the domain. I only want to run the net use j: ... statement.
We didn't have the problem with the extended redirector and IPX. But now, with NT4 Domain Controller, no net use statement is running.
Extended redirector and TCP/IP is too large in the DOS-memory, but is working. Basic redirector and TCP/IP or IPX is loosing the net use... connections.


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Author Comment

by:moosach
ID: 1568420
Adjusted points to 150
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Expert Comment

by:snimmaga
ID: 1568421
As I said before, the problem might still lie with your NICs or the PC itself.  It beats me.  If you don't want to logon to the domain, you need not go with the Full redirector.  But, I have one more question.  Is it necessary for you to go with IPX?  If not, why not you just go with NetBEUI protocol.  A full redirector in this case might have less overhead.  Well, this is possible  only if your client and the server are in the same neighborhood.  It doesn't work across routers, for sure.
Srini.
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Author Comment

by:moosach
ID: 1568422
Hi Srini,
thanks for the reply.

We have many routers and netbeui is not working.
IPX is comfortably, but TCP/IP is our mainline.
We have to configure TCP/IP very exactly with gateways, wins_server..., because of
the routers.
The DOS-stations don't need TCP/IP, so we can save the time for configuring.

Cheers

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Expert Comment

by:snimmaga
ID: 1568423
OK, restating the gist of the discussion, so far....
You don't have a problem with FULL REDIRECTOR.  Immaterial of IP or IPX, you have problems with BASIC REDIRECTOR alone.  
NetBEUI is not an option, since it non-routable.
FULL REDIRECTOR is not an option, 'cuz of its memory overhead.
Beats me.  Let me check my notes.  I am not really sure if I've the answer for you, but I'll try.  In the meanwhile, you might want to consider rejecting my answer and opening up the question.
Good luck..
Srini.
Ps: I found out that SESSIONS parameter in the PROTOCOL.INI file has no effect with BASIC REDIRECTOR.  It is valid only with FULL.
Go to Microsoft Knowledgebase and search for a file called NNET.EXE.  This file provides you with updated versions of NET.EXE, NET.MSG AND NETH.MSG files.  This might solve the problem.
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Author Comment

by:moosach
ID: 1568424
Hi Srini,

thanks again for the infos.

Independantly I stumbled upon a Microsoft Knowledgebase Article, which seems to be dealing with our problem. I'll check both your hints as well as the suggested workaround. Because I can't reboot the server anytime, I have to wait though. I'll keep you updated and will give you the points when we have a solution.

Thnks a lot so far

............................................................

Cannot Log on Using IPX After Installing SP3
                     on Windows NT 4.0

                                                                          Last reviewed: June 10, 1998
                                                                                  Article ID: Q170517


      The information in this article applies to:

           Microsoft Windows NT Server version 4.0
           Microsoft Windows for Workgroups version 3.11
           Microsoft Windows 95
           Microsoft Network Client version 3.0 for MS-DOS

      IMPORTANT: This article contains information about editing the registry. Before you edit the registry, make sure
      you understand how to restore it if a problem occurs. For information on how to do this, view the "Restoring the
      Registry" online Help topic in Regedit.exe or the "Restoring a Registry Key" online Help topic in Regedt32.exe.

      SYMPTOMS

      After you install Service Pack 3 for Windows NT 4.0 Server, clients who try to log on using the IPX protocol may
      experience problems.

      Microsoft Network Clients version 3.0 for MS-DOS may display the following error:

         Error 5: Access has been denied.


      Windows for Workgroups and Windows 95 clients may report password problems. They may display the following
      error message:

         The Domain password supplied is incorrect, or access to your logon
         server has been denied.


      MS-DOS clients and Windows for Workgroups clients may fail every time. Windows 95 clients may only fail
      sporadically. NT clients will not experience a problem because they do not use Direct Hosting to establish a
      session.

      The Microsoft network clients 3.0 for MS-DOS may also exhibit problems Establishing a session to a member
      server in the logon domain. In this case, you may receive the following error:

         Error 58: The network has responded incorrectly


      RESOLUTION

      To resolve this problem, contact Microsoft Technical Support to obtain the following fix, or wait for the next
      Windows NT service pack.

      This fix should have the following time stamp:

         06/11/97  09:01p                99,088 Srvsvc.dll (Intel)
         06/11/97  08:01p               146,704 Srvsvc.dll (Alpha)


      To work around this problem, follow the steps below.

      WARNING: Using Registry Editor incorrectly can cause serious problems that may require you to reinstall your
      operating system. Microsoft cannot guarantee that problems resulting from the incorrect use of Registry Editor
      can be solved. Use Registry Editor at your own risk.

      For information about how to edit the registry, view the "Changing Keys And Values" online Help topic in Registry
      Editor (Regedit.exe) or the "Add and Delete Information in the Registry" and "Edit Registry Data" online Help
      topics in Regedt32.exe. Note that you should back up the registry before you edit it.

        1.Use the Regedt32.exe tool, and navigate to the following location:

                 HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\LanManServer
                 \Parameters

           NOTE: The above registry key is one path; it has been wrapped for readability.

        2.Add the following value:

                 Value Name: MinClientBufferSize
                 Data Type: REG_DWORD
                 Radix: Hex
                 Data: 1F4

        3.Rebooted the computer to have this change take effect.

      To resolve domain validation errors, either the hotfix or the registry change should be applied to all domain
      controllers running the IPX protocol.

      STATUS

      Microsoft has confirmed this to be a problem in Windows NT version 4.0. A supported fix is now available, but
      has not been fully regression tested and should be applied only to systems experiencing this specific problem.
      Unless you are severely impacted by this specific problem, Microsoft recommends that you wait for the next
      service pack that contains this fix. Contact Microsoft Technical Support for more information.

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Expert Comment

by:snimmaga
ID: 1568425
Hmmm, sounds interesting.  If any solution, I thought SP3 should solve the problem.  Anyway, the symptoms list doesn't seem to cover sporadic network connection losses.  But I am not sure what kind of error messages you are rec'ving.  Well, if this works out, well and good.  Lemme know of your progress.
Good luck..
Srini.
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Author Comment

by:moosach
ID: 1568426
Hi Srini,

the stuff seems to work now with IPX. Either the registry change, the NNET.EXE did the job. I really don't know. Main thing its working now.

Thanks for your valuable information and help !!!!

CU
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