Solved

Dying Hard Drive?

Posted on 1998-07-31
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Last Modified: 2010-04-14
We got a PowerMac 7600 running OS 8.1 without the HFS+
A 604e processor and a stupid amount of RAM.

Norton is consistently finding this wrong:

Scan Catalog
An error was found in a directory record in the catalog b-tree.
The disk "The Brain" has incorrect Finder settings that may be interfering
with the normal operations of your disk. (node 437) (5,7,19)
Node #437, Record Offset 1
The leaf directory record was fixed.

It then says it fixes the problem, but running Norton again gives the same
problem and claim to fixing it. I've reformated more than three times,
reinstalled the os and updated it to 8.1, I've reinstalled Norton on the
Startup Disk, rebuilt desktops thrown away Finder Prefs, what am I missing?
I'm at my wits end and can't seem to make this thing work.
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

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Question by:lammons
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24 Comments
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:TheHub
ID: 1535887
You have the wrong version of Norton. The problem is fixed at version 3.5.1. Free download to 3.5.1 from 3.5 avail from www.symantec.com. Version 3.5.2 is also available. The difference between 3.5.1 and 3.5.2 is that 3.5.2 will not attempt to fix HFS+ disks, but instead will report that it can only fix HFS disks. This is important because 3.5.1 will destroy any HFS+ disk that it attempts to fix.

-good luck
0
 

Author Comment

by:lammons
ID: 1535888
Wait, we're _not_ using the new file format.
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LVL 2

Accepted Solution

by:
jkjung earned 100 total points
ID: 1535889
So, we are assuming that you are using Norton Utilities 3.5, not 3.5.1 or 3.5.2, right?  If this is the case, you need to update your copy of NUM, regardless you have HFS+.

Please read the following Symantec article:
  <ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/english_us_canada/products/norton_utilities/ver3.5_mac/updates/latest_patcher_info.txt>

This article SPECIFICALLY states that version 3.5.2 FIXES this issue:
  >Norton Disk Doctor:
  >Resolves an issue with MacOS 8 where NDD would report
  >"incorrect Finder settings".
  >Fixes an issue where Speed Disk would report "b-tree records
  >out of order" and Norton Disk
  >Doctor would not identify the problem.

You can find the update here:
  <http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/files/num/norton_utilities_version_3x_for_macintosh.html>

I hope this helps.

--MikroData (jkjung)
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Expert Comment

by:Brains080398
ID: 1535890
I consider Norton Disk Doctor to be a band-aid measure at most, and that the surest way of repairing such a fault is to backup, reformat and restore.

That aside, I agree with Mr Jung, it sounds like your version of Norton's is too old to cope.

Another alternative: download "Disk First Aid 8.2" from Apple's FTP site. This now checks and repairs a lot of errors and faults, including a lot that Norton Utilities simply misses or downright ignores.

If all else fails, boot from your Mac OS CD, start up Drive Setup and reformat your hard drive, ensuring that your Initialisation Option s have "low level format" checked; once tyhat is done, you can restore your hard drive from your last backup.

You *do* have a backup, don't you? :-)


Brains
(who religiously backs up his three computers every night)
0
 
LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535891
Comment to Brains:
  I, somewhat, agree with your statement, "This now checks and repairs a lot of errors and faults, including a lot that Norton Utilities simply misses or downright ignores. "  NDD can fix more than Disk First Aid can.  However, I won't trust my life (Mac) with either one of them, alone.  Use both utilities.
  I bought a Jaz drive, especially for backup purposes, though I use it for other functions.  However, I admire your dedication in making a nightly backup.  I've only done my PowerBook, because I HAD TO reformat it.  I have yet to do my other Macs.
  Your "sure" method of eliminating the problem is to "kill the cat".  However, this problem may still arise as an error in NDD after doing a low-level format.  The low-level format will make sure that there are no faulty hard drive blocks, but will not commit to the integrity of a file system.

--MikroData (jkjung)
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LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:TheHub
ID: 1535892
The "Incorrect Finder settings" error message was fixed in version 3.5.1 of Norton Utilities. Maybe you did not read the bug fix report. I will re-submit my answer.

Please note that we do this for free and that it is polite to give a comment when rejecting someone's answer.

You have the wrong version of Norton. The problem is fixed at version 3.5.1. Free download to 3.5.1 from 3.5 avail from:
http://www.symantec.com
Version 3.5.2 is also available. The difference between 3.5.1 and 3.5.2 is that 3.5.2 will not attempt to fix HFS+ disks, but instead will report that it can only fix HFS disks. This is important because 3.5.1 will destroy any HFS+ disk that it attempts to fix.
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LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:TheHub
ID: 1535893
Oh darn...someone else repeated me and I did not realize that I was in comment mode. Dash it all.

If you have any sense of fairplay, you will reject his answer and let me re-submit mine for the points.
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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535894
Comment to TheHub:
  I don't mind my answer being rejected.  However, I DID provide the direct URLs, since it is obvious that lammons did not read the article.

--MikroData (jkjung)
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LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:TheHub
ID: 1535895
Comment to jkjung:
Whatever...my answer is correct, was first, and I provided a URL.
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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535896
Comment to TheHub:
  Either lammons took a vacation, or he found out that your answer was right and ran with the answer, not wanting to admit that he was wrong.
  Well, whatever lammons decides to do with my "Proposed Answer" is up to him.  I guess this is just like your "psycic" solution for 800 smackaroos in that other post.

--MikroData (jkjung)
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LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:TheHub
ID: 1535897
esp is good...:)
0
 

Author Comment

by:lammons
ID: 1535898
Okay, I _am_ on vacation. The version we have of NDD is 3.5.2, however I think my husband may have updated it recently and was using an old version when he asked me to post this question.

BUT, since you are all squabbling like a bunch of school boys I think I might give the points to the most magnanimous apology.

BTW, of course we tried reformatting.

And another thing - lammons is not a him.
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LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:TheHub
ID: 1535899
I am looking at my shoes...
-TheHub
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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535900
Okay, I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy apologize that I said, "he"/"him".  I was going to say, "he/she"/"him/her".  To be honest, I didn't want to type it all out, and HOPED that I was not wrong.  Now, I know that I am, and wish I could take my typing back.

*extending a hand of forgiveness*

--MikroData (jkjung)
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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535901
sorry again...I meant:

*extending a hand FOR forgiveness*
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Author Comment

by:lammons
ID: 1535902
All apologies accepted. You folks are cute. :) Here's one more chance to get the real points. Here's what my husband said about this whole thing:

Upgraded to Norton 3.5.2 and already had Disk First Aid 8.2, but alas the
trouble continues. Disk First Aid as usual catches no problems to repair.
Norton no longer gives me the b-tree error that I mentioned, the new error
that it repeatedly claims to fix and repair is:

System Folder
An error was found in the boot blocks.
The boot blocks on this disk are unrecognizable.  You will not be able to
startup from this disk. (8,0,4)
The boot blocks was fixed.

It _does_ start up though, kinda slowly.

I had a friend bring over Tech Tool Pro and give it a go, it claims that
the problem is with the disk being able to verify.

I have reformated not once but three times in the past two weeks (trying to
even further dim any residual data). And put a brand new system folder on
the system. I didn't even copy print drivers and extra extensions but
reinstalled them.

The problem is continuing I really wish it was simply a problem with
norton, however I think that it is a much worse hardware problem.

I appreciate any further comments on the problem, as these solutions are
very insightful however not the answers that are working to get the drive
back to normal.

Thanks!
0
 
LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535903
If you, indeed, have bad blocks, make sure you are doing a low level format, instead of the standard initialization procedure.  What this does is that it makes sure that the blocks are good, and if it isn't, Drive Setup will mark it bad.

Use Drive Setup 1.5 (not on CD; downloadable from Apple).  From one of the menus, choose "Initialization Options" and check "Low level".

After you format and BEFORE installing anything (blank hard drive), scan with NDD 3.5.2.  You may have to put it on an external hard drive/media to run it.  (I don't think it will fit on a floppy, but I could be wrong.)

I hope this helps.

--MikroData (jkjung)
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:TheHub
ID: 1535904
Formatting the drive is "supposed" to map out bad blocks. Low Level formats are better for this purpose. However, Apple's formatting utilities are not very powerful. FWB Hard Disk Toolkit is a must have item and is worth all the money. There are many options that are not available with an Apple format utility.

The boot blocks contain a boolean switch. In its OFF (false) state, the disk is not bootable. In its ON (true) state, the disk is bootable. Something is turning the ONE (true) to a ZERO (false). This may be due to a bad piece of software or bad media (the disk itself).

Bad Blocks (media) are areas of the disk that cannot be read or written to reliably. All data is a series of ONE's (magnetized) or a ZERO's (demagnetized). Blocks are considered BAD when they can no longer sustain magnetism. Mapping out BAD Blocks, therefore, is desirable.

FWB HDT has successfully formatted Hard Drives when Apple's format utility (Drive Setup or HD SCSI Setup) has failed or pretended to be successful, when it was not.

Drive failures can be synthesized by SCSI Voodoo. If you are following the rules for SCSI Termination, break them. If you are not following the rules for SCSI Termination, follow them. That is why they call it Voodoo.

The general rule of the thumb for SCSI Termination says to terminate the first and last SCSI device in the chain and keep your SCSI chains as short as possible. The first device is your internal Hard Drive at SCSI ID zero. All SCSI ID's must be unique.

I hope that helps. Good luck.
0
 
LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535905
On a Mac, you "initialize" a disk.  (The only time someone refers to "format" is when it is a low level format or zeroing data.)  In this procedure, it deletes the partition information, creates an empty partition, copies known bad blocks over, and creates the directory structure.  PCs use "format" to refer to all levels of hard drive erasure.

When you use Drive Setup, you may want to format the drive as "Unallocatted".  This type of format doesn't put the directory stucture on the drive.  After you do this, restart your computer, and use Drive Setup again to make it "Standard" (versus "Extended" for HFS+).  You can find this under "Customize Volumes".

I hope this helps.

--MikroData (jkjung)
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LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:TheHub
ID: 1535906
"Initialize" is an incorrect usage of "format." High Level or Low Level, it is a format.
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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535907
Precisely.
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Author Comment

by:lammons
ID: 1535908
Let me run all this by my hubby...
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Author Comment

by:lammons
ID: 1535909
My hubby has spoken.
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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:jkjung
ID: 1535910
May your Mac "live long and prosper".

--MikroData (jkjung)
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