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Fat32 vs Fat16 Win98 hard drive 1/2 noticed???

Posted on 1998-11-07
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Last Modified: 2009-12-16
In the bios the hard drive on my p5120 gateway is listed as a WDC AC21000h at 1034MB.  Checking disk space in WIN98 it shows 504MB and that is almost gone as I am getting disk full error messages.  Should I go do the FAT32 thing?  Will that fix it?  What am I risking?
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Question by:esdl
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128532
It sounds like you have some more space on the drive that may not be partitioned or formatted.
What does FDISK say about the drive's partition/s?
Ralph

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by:esdl
ID: 1128533
~540,000,000 total disk space
0 bad sectors
~500,000,000 bytes in 5,447 folders
16,000bytes in each alloc unit
32,937 total alloc units
1,777 avail alloc units

Looks like a 540MB hard drive but why is it listed s max capacity 1034MB in the bios
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128534
To run FDISK:
Click Start button, Run, type FDISK in the box, and press enter.
Choose the option "Display partition information".
What is total disk space?
What is the "usage" shown for C:?
Is there more than one partition on your hard drive?
Ralph
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128535
Thanks for the FDISK info.. I had totally forgotton that part..
Total disk space is listed as 1032MB and usage is at 50%  Currently 515mb in use... it did start out saying something about the disk being larger than 514MB so it prompted me to do the FAT32 thing... that sounds like that would fix it, but what is the risk of losing my personal files??  Doesn't that wipe out everything and you have to reload WIN98 or No???  Please stick with me... I'm almost there!!
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by:esdl
ID: 1128536
forgot... only one partition.....   Dave
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by:jacobas
ID: 1128537
Is this a new hd that you have installed yourself, have you been playing with the BIOS???
You might not have the HD configured right in the BIOS.  Go into the BIOS and put the HD config on AUTO if it has that option.  If not usually you can look on the top of the HD and it will have the sectors, heads, cylinders and all that on top.  Manually input those settings into the BIOS.  This should make the HD be detected with the full memory amount.  Then you can run fdisk and repartition if you need too.  you will have to reformat the newly partitioned drives.  Hope this helps!
Jake
PS. do what Ralph suggested first to see what fdisk says about the memory amount!
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by:esdl
ID: 1128538
This is a computer I got at work and I don't have any info on it but it has it's original hard drive and I don't think anyone would have messed with the bios.. I haven't.
Bios says:

auto configured
cyl - 2100
heads - 16
sectors - 63
Max Cap - 1034 MB
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128539
Dave,
Since your BIOS already detects the hard drive correctly, I wouldn't change anything there.
I don't know why it wasn't partitioned for the drive's full capacity originally, but here's all you need to do:

1) From FDISK, create a new partition assigning the remaining disk space, and then re-boot.
2) Format the new partition.

Your original drive C: won't be affected, and you will then have a new, 500Mb drive available!
Regards,
Ralph

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by:jacobas
ID: 1128540
I agree with rmarotta!  That should fix everything.  Adding another partition instead of making one partition with all the info on the pratition will keep you from losing any saved info on the HD.  
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by:esdl
ID: 1128541
Sorry, but by following the direction in FDISK it will only let me make a new 2MB partition and no more... I tried entering higher figures but it wouldn't accept them...
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128542
Hmmmm, something's wrong here.......
You said that BIOS & FDISK reports the drive's total capacity correctly.
Check the settings again in BIOS and be sure LBA is enabled.  Without LBA translation, you won't get to use more than 500MB.
Ralph


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by:esdl
ID: 1128543
I went everywhere possible in BIOS and there is no reference to anything like 'LBA'...  could we be getting closer?  
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128544
Dave,
What is installed in your computer? (CPU, RAM, Hard Drive/s, etc.)
We're getting close if your BIOS supports LBA. (Logical Block Addressing)
Select the option in CMOS/BIOS setup to auto-detect the hard drive.
Is there more than one resulting configuration to select from?
(Don't worry about changing anything yet.  You should be able to exit the setup utility without saving any changes.)
Ralph

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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128545
Gateway 2000 P5-120
80MB RAM
Hard Drive - WDC AC21000H
Drive is Autoconfigure setting in bios (other option is user define where all the values go to '0')
shows - 1034MB size
ide translation mode - auto
multiple sector settings - auto
fast programmin i/o mode - auto

???
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128546
forgot - only have the one hard drive, a 4x mitsumi cd rom and really nothing else....standard A floppy.
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128547
Can you change the "IDE Translation Mode" setting?  (From Auto to LBA)
Perhaps there is some glitch in the BIOS that is preventing LBA.
Ralph

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by:Otta
ID: 1128548
> Check the settings again in BIOS and be sure LBA is enabled.
> Can you change the "IDE Translation Mode" setting? (From Auto to LBA)

Be careful if you do!  
Changing modes is a *VERY* quick way to lose *ALL* the data
currently on the hard-drive.

Try again, using FDISK, to create an "extended" partition,
by allocating from the "free" space on the drive,
and then create a "logical-drive" inside this partition.

Also, cut-and-paste the output from 'FDISK /STATUS'
into this forum.



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by:daverolfe
ID: 1128549
I think your HD controller may be IDE as oppossed to EIDE and therefore will not see over 504Mb without running disk manager or somesuch regardless of the size reported by BIOS or what FAT type you use.  Whether this is right or not I think it is unrealistic to play with disk settings and hope to retain your data. Backup data now.
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128550
Dave,
Forgive me for not suggesting what Otta said about backup.
I meant to caution you, but it slipped my mind, as I'm involved with another, similar question at this moment also.
Thanks Otta!
Ralph
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128551
How do I find out what my hd controller is?  I think it has two controllers from previous investigations and they are both IDE, one being primary and the other secondary.. the secondary is defective and I am running a split cable (hard drive and cd rom off off the primary avoiding the defective secondary)  Also I did change the IDE setting to LB - logical block, did FDISK and when trying to partition the remaining hard drive I received the same thing... only 2 MB available to partition... error messages were:

Cannot create extended DOS partition on current drive and
Cannot create logical DOS drive without an extended DOS partition on current drive...

I think you guys will know now what I should do...???  We're almost there!
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128552
Yes.... two standard bus mastering ide controllers... NOT EIDE.
To gain that 500MB what is the best solution??
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128553
I think a bus mastering controller is EIDE-compliant.
Are those controllers built into the motherboard, or an add-on card?
How is the secondary controller disabled?  
Are one or both controllers listed in Windows Device Manager?
How is/are it/they described there?
How did you happen to discover the defective one?
Lots of questions I know, but this is an unusual problem.
Ralph
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128554
*controllers are built into the motherboard = original config.
* I don't think the secondary is disabled - under device manager there is listed:
1. creative labs ide controller
2. standard bus mastering ide controller
3. another standard bus mastering ide controller

The defective one was dedicated to the CD-Rom and it quit working.  By swapping the two independent cables from the hard drive to the cd-rom the problem switched to the hard drive (using new cables from another machine)thus, it had to be the controller.  Rather than use two cables then, I got a cable that connected to the good IDE and split - one way to the cd and one way to the hard drive.

thanks!!  waiting???
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128555
What is the model number of your Gateway?
Was this hard drive originally installed in this computer?
I've seen some Gateways with unusual controllers.  One required removing a driver from config.sys in order to run FDISK on a drive on the secondary.
Maybe yours is a little unusual too......

Ralph
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128556
I'm not sure where to look for the model number but it is a gateway 2000 p5-120.  This hard drive was the initial installation.  Maybe that is it... do you recommend that I call Gateway support...???  without you being physically here this might not be 'fixable' over this medium???
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128557
The first thing they'll ask for is the model number.
Look around or under the case.  It should have a number on it somewhere.
Did this problem occur only since installing Win98?
What was the original operating system?
I just looked at the other question in your profile, and it seems that you recently formatted the drive.
Did you run FDISK at that time?
What was the formatted capacity of the drive?
Ralph

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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128558
Ralph,

Model number is 'New Tower'  (odd I thought)

I am not sure if the drive was ok under WIN95 or not... no way to tell.. they were originally configured to ship under Win 3.11 and then a hold was placed on them (50 units for corporate) and I think Win95 was put in over 3.11.  When I got it I formatted the 'C' drive (it was network confused) with the 's' switch.  Then installed Win98 on it and started fresh.

I did not run fdisk at the time... and do not know what was the formatted capacity of the drive.. could I have possibly made a mistake during the format by choosing a wrong option?  I don't recall any?

Dave...
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128559
Dave,
I don't think you would have made a mistake in the formatting.
I still can't explain why Fdisk sees the entire drive's capacity, but refuses to partition it all.
You might try FDISK/MBR.
If that doesn't help, and there isn't anything on the drive that you can't live without, I think I would just start over.
Let me know if you want help with it.
Ralph
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128560
Ralph..... thanks... thanks allot for all your help... I would like to give the points or whatever it is that keeps you all doing it to you.... We may have not beat this one.. but I still have learned allot along the way... thanks again... especially for the fast responses...  I may just buy a new hard drive...and there will be a NEW challenge I'll need help with no doubt.

take care... Dave E.  anything else that you can think of I'll still check the responses

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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128561
Ralph... FDISK/MBR does not compute.....
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by:j_powers
ID: 1128562
FDISK /MBR may not be a solution here.

Try this instead:

First: go into Fdisk, and view the info on your drive. Make sure you do not have a 'non DOS' partition. Let me know of all the partitions that you have.

secondly: there are other programs that let you manipulate the partition size. Partition Magic is one, and Partition Maker (which a download of that file can be obtained at www.freeware.com). They deal with support for FAT16, FAT32, NTFS, and HPFS.

I had to sort through alot, but the jist is that you have a 1 gig drive, and can only see 500 megs? This may be because of the cluster size. I have partitioned drives to read 32k clusters - in result, they leave about 20% of the actual drive out of the partition.

You mentioned that you reset up your HD when you got it. Did it have any type of partition manager on it(Max-blast, OnTrack, etc.)? These programs are shipped with computers that have large drives - especially over 540 megs. That may also be inhibiting the viewing of the extra space.

By the way, you have a Western Digital Caviar 21000, in case you were wondering. There are only 3 jumpers on the back of the drive, and they only set master and slave. Here are the settings:

Model:WDAC21000
Capacity:1083.3
Cylinders:2100
Heads:16
WPComp:2100
Landing Zone:2100
Seek time:SUB-11
Sector/track:63
Total:2116800


If you want the WD overlay product, go to this site:
http://www.wdc.com/support/FAQ/general.html

Finally: gateway has some diagnostic programs that you can use. They are found here:
http://www.gateway.com/home/support/hardware/99/default.html

The file is called Scan.exe, and is found here:

ftp://ftp.gw2k.com/pub/hardware_support/drivers/win3x_and_dos/mass_storage/hard_drives/scan.exe

There are other programs you can download from Gateway, also.

Let me know what happens


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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128563
Dave,
When I said:  "I think I would just start over", I didn't mean you had to replace the hard drive......  I meant for you to re-partition and format this one.
Then you would "start over" with a new Windows installation.
Let me know what you want to do.
Regards,
Ralph
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Expert Comment

by:vikiing
ID: 1128564
Dear Esdl:

    As long as you keep FAT16 structure, you'll have no way to go beyond 2 Gb, 'cause that's the maximum allowed for FAT16.

The only way is to update to FAT32. Windows does it well as you know, with no loss of data.
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128565
C'mon vikiing, read the question!
The hard drive we're working with is only 1 Gb.
Ralph
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by:michelandre
ID: 1128566
I think the 2 MB is an extended partition, and you can create only 1 extended partition on a disk. So first, delete the extended partition then recreate one taking all of the proposed size.
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128567
Sorry, have to reject... as Ralph says... the hard drive is only 1 GIG so this doesn't apply.  I did the FAT16 to FAT32 already and picked up about 45MB but my original problem still exists..I'm going to try suggestions now...  Thanks.
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128568
Dave,
I suggest you re-open the question if the proposed "answer" doesn't solve your problem.  If you grade the current proposed answer, it will close the question and award your points.
You don't have to accept (grade) any answer until the problem is solved to your satisfaction.
Any progress yet?
Ralph
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128569
Sorry about the last comment.
Yours wasn't visible to me when I submitted it.
Ralph
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by:esdl
ID: 1128570
I had only one partition and it is:

C: 1  status: A  Type: pri dos  MB: 515  System: fat32  Usage:50%
I don't have a 'non DOS' partition.

I was going to attempt to partition the disk using a program you suggested.  It said though that you could not paritition the one that the program was running from so I went into FDISK and made a new, No. 2 partition - size - 2 MB as it would let me do that.  Extended dos partition with logical drives... after reading all the info on the partition software I got cold feet and wanted to delete my new 2 MB partition.  It will not let me!!!!  It says I have to delete the logical drives first so when attempting to do that it asks for the drive no. which is D: and then asks for the volume label which is listed as * Remote *.  When I type that in and several different variations of it - says that the name is incorrect.  I can't get anywhere with it and now I'm afraid to reboot as I don't want it to mess anything up.  Then there is the problem of my cd being the D: drive etc. etc.  I would just like to get rid of my new partition and find an easier fix to this 1/2 drive space problem.

 There was never a partition manager in this equipment.

I ran scan.exe as you suggested:  Results:

Model:  WDC AC21000H like you said
S/N:    WC-WT2900169592
Firmware:  17.11p19
C H S:  2100  16  63
Drive:  0
Baseport:   0x1f0
DCM:   CNAAMANB
Build Date:  16-Sep-95

No errors were detected on the drive  Final Code  0000  

     


     
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128571
1) Have you made a backup of anything you want to keep?  If not, do so now!
2) Did you re-boot after creating the new partition?
3) Does Windows see the new drive?  If so, rename it in My Computer.  If so, try again with FDISK to remove the partition.
Any luck?
I still think it's time to re-partition to solve this problem.
Ralph

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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128572
WHEW!!!  Reboot was successful... cd is now E drive but it works so I don't care.  Renamed the second partition and formatted it and all seems well.  I guess I could try to repartition the second one now using a freeware program.  Wish me luck.. important files are backed up and I have all program disks so I guess I can go for it.
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128573
Downloaded a partition resizer program.. ran it.. looked like it was going to work resizing the new drive partition but when it came time to press the arrow keys to do the resizing, it didn't respond to them.

I don't know what to do now.
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128574
Dave,
If the tools that came with your operating system fail to work, there is a reason.
Forget about all those whiz-bang miracle programs.
To be honest, most don't do what they say, and many cause more trouble than they're worth!
Sometimes you reach a point where it pays to start over.
What I would do now that you have your data backed up, is to delete all partitions on the hard drive, and then create a new, single one, using the whole drive.
We have lots of time, so don't worry about getting stuck.
Let me know if you need help with it, and I'll give you step-by-step instructions.
Ralph

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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128575
I would like to accept the answer from Ralph, rmarotta, as correct.  I was on the help line with Gateway and that is what it came down to.. so Ralph.. you were right.. and I think you suggested the answer a few messages ago.. Thanks to all that responded and special thanks to Ralph who spent allot of time with this problem and did have the correct answer in the end. I'll give it a go when I have the chance and maybe will have to return here to all this great help I have been getting .. THANKS AGAIN!!!!  (if I am going to go to all this trouble I might just get a new hard drive as the 1 gig is borderline anyway....)
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rmarotta earned 100 total points
ID: 1128576
Okay Dave.
Glad to help.  Just holler when you're ready to do it.
Best regards,
Ralph
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128577
Thanks again Ralph...
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by:j_powers
ID: 1128578
I just hope that after you repartition, reinstall, then move everything back, that you do not have the same problem.

esdl: just so you know, If you create a partition in one program like Partition Manager, they let you create a volume label with Upper and lower case characters. FDISK does not accept it, so if you have a vol. name like "Remove", it will not see it, because you can only type in "REMOVE". In other words, the volume label is case sensitive in FDISK.

I have that problem all the time when I repartition IBM Thinkpads. I either need to run another program like OS/2's Fdisk, or script a FDISK in MSDOS (kind of like a unnattended FDISK, where a script file deletes and creates partitions).

I wish you the best in your set up.

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by:Otta
ID: 1128579
> C H S: 2100 16 63

MS DOS can only use the first 1024/16/63
(Cylinders/Heads/Sectors).

So, delete all the current partitions.
Hint: use the LABEL command to set a label
on a partition, and then use that label
within FDISK to confirm the delete.

Then, reboot into BIOS-setup mode.
Select LBA-mode (if your BIOS) supports it,
and it will translate 2100/16/63 to become 525/64/63.

When you reboot, MS DOS will see only the "translated" geometry,
and will let you define a 1GB partition.

If your BIOS doesn't support LBA,
then you will need some "device-overlay" software
to accomplish a similar translation.
Look at Western Digital's web-site for the software.














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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128580
You're right j_powers!
That's a perfect example of why I said what I did earlier..... (about third-party software)
To me, it's a hard enough job for users to learn the correct use of tools they already own, without utility programmers making more problems.
By making the drive label unaccessable with standard tools, it serves no purpose that I can think of except to demonstrate their ability to maintain control over unsuspecting users.
We'll solve that problem easily though......  if it arises.
What do you think?
Ralph
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128581
Otta, I don't think the label command will do it with lowercase letters..........
But WD has a low-leevel format routine that will scrub that drive.......
A squeaky clean way to start over again!
Ralph
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by:j_powers
ID: 1128582
But see, that problem has been around since the introduction of MS DOS. FDISK is the problem, and was never fixed. Why would you want to use a program that they will only upgrade, but never fix?

I'm sorry, but you say that other partition products are the problem, but I have seen too many problems created by FDISK. This is a discussion for another area, but the whole idea of the 3rd party program was to help with the partition with the problem, and possibly even resize it to the desired size.


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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128583
> "but the whole idea of the 3rd party program was to help with the partition .... "

That's the idea behind the 3rd party programs.....
I just haven't seen it implemented yet.
Partition Magic, for one, causes plenty of problems with FAT32.
FDISK is just a simple program that does what it was intended for.  .......reliably.
If no one fooled with the "pretty" lowercase labels, that self-inflicted problem would be no problem!
Ralph
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by:j_powers
ID: 1128584
Like I said, this is something for a discussion area. The point I want to stress is that there are other ways to fix disk problems than Reformatting.

What do you mean 'Low level format'? Just repartition, format, and be done with it. Don't try to 'scrub'. If you want to talk about problems, Low Level format is just that. A big problem.
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by:rmarotta
ID: 1128585
Why do you suppose Western Digital has Wd_diag.exe available for their drives?  
See:
http://www.wdc.com/support/ftp/drives.html

It's not the headache anymore that it used to be in MFM/RLL days.
Ralph
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128586
The results I said I would post:  If I had to reformat my 1 gig hard drive and reload everything or get some complicated disk duplicator package I decided to go with a larger hard drive as I would have to eventually anyway.  Went to the store, saw a Maxtor 8.4 gig on sale and bought it.  I wanted to relay that the software that came with it made it super easy even for a guy like me.  It formatted the hard drive into 4 ~2gig partitions, easy, fast, so now I'm reloaded and back and running again.  I am just going to keep the old 1 gig drive as my backup 'in the drawer' for now.  Someday I'm going to plug it in and reformat it and see if it works... but whew!!  I just need to cruise for a while before I try anything new...  THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE HELP!!!
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by:Otta
ID: 1128587
> It formatted the hard drive into 4 ~2gig partitions,

One of the new features of WIN98 is support for "large" partitions,
i.e., greater than 2GB, via the 'FAT32' support.

You should at least consider it,
rather than having 4 partitions.
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128588
Thanks Otta,  I did consider it but when I was messing around with my 1 gig drive I did the FAT32 thing.  I discovered that during scandisk and defrag that it took forever and I can only imagine how slow it would be with this big a hard drive.  I guess that is the downside.  Windows did handle it easily though - no problem... it took a very long time though.  What is the downside of having 4 partitions?  (thanks for the previous help too!)
Dave
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by:Otta
ID: 1128589
> I discovered that during scandisk and defrag that it took
> forever and I can only imagine how slow it would be
> with this big a hard drive. I guess that is the downside.
> Windows did handle it easily though - no problem...
> it took a very long time though.

The "problem" is that FAT can do "book-keeping"
for a maximum of 65536 "clusters",
so any 'DEFRAG' or 'SCANDISK' has to manipulate
less than that many "units".
(A 2GB disk has 65536 clusters, each of 32Kbytes).

On the other hand, FAT32 allows "millions" of "clusters".
Each cluster can be as small as one "sector" (512 bytes),
and so 'DEFRAG' can do a better job, with the smaller units,
but it will take longer, since the clusters are smaller.

> What is the downside of having 4 partitions?

When you write one byte into a 2GB partition,
the FAT file-system writes into one "cluster",
and 32K of your disk is allocated.

When you write one byte into a FAT32 partition,
only a few sectors are used, only 0.5K or 1.0K or 2.0K
of your disk is allocated, and your disk won't get
as full as fast.

Another "downside" is your need to "think" about
where (C: or D: or E: or F:) to write a file.
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Author Comment

by:esdl
ID: 1128590
Got it Otta... I understand.... I think I'll go with the 4 partitions for now... I have plenty of room, but yes, I am in the habit of having everything on the C: drive, previously my only storage drive, and since I put my digital photos on the D: drive,,,and forgot that I had done that when I was looking for them.  Thanks for the info...  I have learned allot...

Dave
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Every server (virtual or physical) needs a console: and the console can be provided through hardware directly connected, software for remote connections, local connections, through a KVM, etc. This document explains the different types of consol…
Great sound, comfort and fit, excellent build quality, versatility, compatibility. These are just some of the many reasons for choosing a headset from Sennheiser.
Internet Business Fax to Email Made Easy - With eFax Corporate (http://www.enterprise.efax.com), you'll receive a dedicated online fax number, which is used the same way as a typical analog fax number. You'll receive secure faxes in your email, fr…
Here's a very brief overview of the methods PRTG Network Monitor (https://www.paessler.com/prtg) offers for monitoring bandwidth, to help you decide which methods you´d like to investigate in more detail.  The methods are covered in more detail in o…

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