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RE: Scannner/image quality

Posted on 1998-12-01
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Last Modified: 2010-04-07
I  use PS 5.0, I have a Microtek IIHR w/ver 2.38 scanwiz. I recently upgraded to win98 w/FAT32. I am getting small tile like squares in my images. To compare to something think of floor tiles that have gray and white stripes and are laid perpindicular to each other, then overlay them on an image using  20% opacity,ie: the image is not covered over but the squares make up the image. They will show up in print. I have contacted Microtek and they say there are no problems with win98. I have reloaded scanwiz 3x and fooled around a bit. Anyone have any suggestions?
VR
JIM
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Question by:jjfarm
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115801
Edited text of question
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LVL 30

Expert Comment

by:weed
ID: 1115802
"there are no problems with win98"....theres one i need to tape on my wall for laughs.
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Expert Comment

by:jack_p50
ID: 1115803
it's problem of scanner, not your system -  buy better res. scanner
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Expert Comment

by:scootre
ID: 1115804
The tiles you refer to sound like either Jpeg compression - but you haven't mentioned the save format; or Interpolation - the scanner (or later Photoshop) making up the final resolution with added-in dots.

Are you scanning within the optical capability of the scanner?
The Mikrotek II is a, what, 600x1200 scanner (correct me here).  

Is the scanning resolution within the 600dpi, *after* you multiply the resolution you specify TIMES the scale (enlargemnet factor)?  That is, if you set the scanner at 300dpi, but the enlargement to 300%, your scanning res becomes 900dpi, ie 900 dots are placed per inch.  In this case, the scanner will interpolate - it'll place 600 real dots, then fake in the extra 300 at regular intervals.

If the answer is yes to all of the above... then is the scanning resolution whole-number divisble into the scanner's optical resolution (600dpi, in the case I have above)?  If you set some weird number for the scanning res, the scanner will do it's best to round off the res based on the true optical res.

In photoshop... are you changing the size of your picture at all (or the resolution) to suit the printer?

Back to the save format... how are you saving your image - format wise?  If it's Jpeg, you WILL get a degree of tiling.

Scootre
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Expert Comment

by:scootre
ID: 1115805
The tiles you refer to sound like either Jpeg compression - but you haven't mentioned the save format; or Interpolation - the scanner (or later Photoshop) making up the final resolution with added-in dots.

Are you scanning within the optical capability of the scanner?
The Mikrotek II is a, what, 600x1200 scanner (correct me here).  

Is the scanning resolution within the 600dpi, *after* you multiply the resolution you specify TIMES the scale (enlargemnet factor)?  That is, if you set the scanner at 300dpi, but the enlargement to 300%, your scanning res becomes 900dpi, ie 900 dots are placed per inch.  In this case, the scanner will interpolate - it'll place 600 real dots, then fake in the extra 300 at regular intervals.

If the answer is yes to all of the above... then is the scanning resolution whole-number divisble into the scanner's optical resolution (600dpi, in the case I have above)?  If you set some weird number for the scanning res, the scanner will do it's best to round off the res based on the true optical res.

In photoshop... are you changing the size of your picture at all (or the resolution) to suit the printer?

Back to the save format... how are you saving your image - format wise?  If it's Jpeg, you WILL get a degree of tiling.

Scootre
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115806
Scootre,
Note that prior to win98 I did not get these small square shapes.
I have loaded in all current drivers and uninstalled image related software several times including newer and older versions of them.
I scan b/w aerial photos of farmland which I use to draw farm maps for management purposes.
I scan at 125dpi and do not change resolution nor fool with interpolations. I save in either PSD or JPG, same results in either.
Yes the scanner is 600x1200
I will look into the possibility that the change to win98 didn't effect interpolation somewhere. Can you think of where to look??? like buried in an .ini file.
I have pretty much concluded that Microteks software is not compatible with win98 for when I run the scanner test the test image is high in contrast and has checkerboard light/dark effect. I agree with Weed but Microtek will never own up to it.
I'm not sure I need to buy a better scanner quite yet!
Sorry for being late in answering.
vr
Jim



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Expert Comment

by:artlantis
ID: 1115807
Hi,
I think the scanner is ok.
When you create a layer at Photoshop and you have'n backround image(Or opacity), it saws a grid(grey-white grid).

To check if it is caused by Photoshop try this:

1.Open the problematic image
2.Go to File/Preferences/Transparency&Gamut
3.At transpareny settings,change grid colors to red
4. If the image change then it's photoshop problem.(to solve it read the instractions below)

Under the Layers menu (Window/show layers),click the triangle at the upper left of the menu.
It will open a new.
Then click FLATTEN IMAGE.

I hope i helped you.
Happy new year.

Sincerely
Andreas

http://www.intrafood.com/artlantis/index.htm
artlantis@hotbot.com
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115808
Artlantis,
Tried both and neither did anything. I did try the Blur command and the squares went away, presumably the blur washed the image so the squares were no longer apparent.
Would you know of any setting that would have to be in place to have blur correct(mask??) this problem?  Needless to say everything is set at defaults where possible. PS: email notification doesn't appear to be working well.
Also the checkerboard pattern, which is noticeable in PS at 66.6% is a board turned at about 45 degrees, ie a point of the board would be pointing towards you.
VR
Jim
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Expert Comment

by:artlantis
ID: 1115809
Hi,
can you send me an image.(small its ok)

I will contact you via e-mail.

Sincerely
Andreas

artlantis@hotbot.com
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Expert Comment

by:Osiris010898
ID: 1115810
If you are using a parrallel port you need to: open "control panels", click "system" icon, choose "device manager" then expand the SCSI devices by clicking the + sign, choose the "Microtek Parallel Port Host Adapter" then click on "properties", choose the second tab, and under Adapter settings add the following line:  /N/V/SF=30  click OK, restart windows, make sure the ready light on the scanner is solid green before starting Windows.

• Try the new ScanWizard 2.49R2
• Check to see if your cables are good
• See if you have the latest INF file for Win 95/98, should be "MIISCAN.INF"-download here: http://204.31.16.250/~admin/pcftp.html
• Downgrade to Win 95 or get a MAC  
•  Check your preference setting  for "screens" in Photoshop, set it back to "use printer default"-this shouldn't effect on screen image, but you never know with Win98

goodluck
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115811
To jjfarm,pls advise how is yr link of scanner to yr Pc. Any other in-between devices or afterward. Have you checked the termination. Is it auto-terminated without plugging in any terminator or you have not plug in any terminator at the back of the scanner. If you connected to the parallel port,please ensure it is set in the CMOS that the parallel port be set as EPP (Enhanced parallel port).       Pslh
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115812
pslh,
When I purchased the scanner it came with a SCSI card, hence no parralell port. The chain is one zip drive then scanner(with external terminator added)
osiris, have latest drivers, inf, etc. and have changed back and forth from old to new to different. Ver 2.49r will not work with IIHR and confirmed by trail and Microtek phonecall.They said it is my light bulb??? Unfortunately I can"t go to MAC for a vital program I use is strictly, and I mean strictly, win oriented, see www.farmworks.com
vr
jim
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115813
To jjfarm,why yr name and question are so familiar as you have posted the same question too in win98 that I have given some advises. But now I've found that my last question has discovered something that is the interferences to your scanned images- 'the external Zip drive in the SCSI link.' Try to temporary disconnect the Zip drive. Attach directly the scanner into the SCSI port of your PC with terminator at the back of the scanner. Then Reboot the Pc, note that the SCSI number of your scanner while the PC is in booting through the SCSI devices. It is in appearing in a flash second before the win98's window. Then try to scan and test. Most of the time, you have to reboot yr Pc at least 3 times to teach win98 to acknowledge your scanner's configuration and then made the updated database in the registry.

Try to re-test the scan and see if images corrected.  Pslh

After that, please go back for how to re-install the Zip-drive.

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Expert Comment

by:Yung
ID: 1115814
have you try use another Microtek IIHR?
maybe it's really the light bulb .. :D
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Expert Comment

by:Osiris010898
ID: 1115815
What about the SCSI card then?
I'd follow pslh suggestions, you need to isolate the scanner on the scsi chain, make sure it's terminated, try different scsi id's, sounds like to me the data transmission from scanner to cpu is picking artifacts/interference somewhere, or its just bad data transmission.
Can you hook up your scanner to another Computer running Win98 and test it?

By now my best guesses would be the bugginess of Win98 or  an incompatible/faulty SCSI card.

oh well...good luck
p.s. Microtek scanners always worked poorly for me, both on both Win and Mac platforms. And a lightbulb is a lightbulb..if stays on...it works...if it  doesn't stay on...it's broke  ;)

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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115816
All have given great advice, its the new year and am going to be busy for a few days but will definitley try taking the zip out of the loop, physically unplug it that is.
Yes pslh, I have tried to find an answer everywhere, my frustration comes from the fact that when I use  scanned b/w aerial photos to make other maps of farms the 66.6% zoom is just the right size for me to work on them in PS. Be glad to email you a copy of one as a last resort as I think I've just about beat this horse to death and need to get some work done.

jjfarm@emh1.pa.net
Jim
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115817
To jjfarm,thk yr reply,pls attach yr scanned images-original one from PS that you've found problem to this email pslh@hotmail.com
Moreover,pls give us yr SCSI card name and model no. you can use device manager in control panal-system to look at the scsi device (its name) so that we can check the jumper and config of your SCSI card. Also,pls state the lines in yr autoexec.bat and config.sys          Pslh   Happy 1999  

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Expert Comment

by:Asta Cu
ID: 1115818
Having a SCANNER on a daisy chain with a ZIP creates intermittent problems .... suspect that's the core of your issue.

Best wishes one and all, and a happy new year!
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115819
Yes,asteac what I was thinking once I knew jjfarm have linking in between a zip drive, as I also met the same problem. I have solved it in my case. Anyway,awaiting jjfarm to identify his own problem after holiday. Agreed with you,asteac. Happy 1999  Pslh
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Expert Comment

by:Asta Cu
ID: 1115820
Agreed ... been there, done that.  Once I removed the Zip drive from the daisy chain and installed it on parallel port (depending on environment, and type, etc.), and updated my VXD, my problem was resolved.

No way did my environment support having a scanner and Zip drive share the SCSI environment -- happy '99.
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115821
To astaec, a zip drive can be either parrall or Scsi oriented. I thought jjfarm has bought a SCSI Zip removable drive that is why he connect to the SCSI linked chain.   Thks.   Pslh
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Expert Comment

by:Asta Cu
ID: 1115822
What type of ZIP drive do you have?  Many are either Parallel or SCSI attach -- IOMEGA, for instance, can be both.

It's important to know which one you have.  If I missed that, sorry for posting superfluous answers.  My intentions are good.
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115823
Dear astaec, I am a grown-up person with goodwill. I comprehand much pretty sure that you are not offensive because of your politeness. Thk u for yr info, My drive is Syquest SyJet 1.5GB that is EPP/SCSI both can be connected to parallet port and scsi port. It can be just pucked into a SCSI port or using an EPP/SCSI cable to connect the SCSI-enabled SyJet removable drive.
Since jjfarm hvn't mentioned his Zip drive model, it can only be a guest that he owned an Iomega Zip drive 100mb -using SCSI and not that for parrallel port.  Appreciated yr msg-astaec! Pslh
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Expert Comment

by:Asta Cu
ID: 1115824
I'm not posting answers, so obviously not seeking points.

I'd still bet your problem lies with daisy-chaining, and that in fact is interfering with your processes.
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Expert Comment

by:gfreeman081597
ID: 1115825
What kind of copy are you scanning from?  If it's newsprint or other offset printed material then it's possible you are experiencing the "Moire" effect.

Have you tried another photo-editing program just to see if it's the PS Twain translation?  Try MS PhotoEdit that comes with Office 97 and see if you get the same effects...
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Expert Comment

by:Asta Cu
ID: 1115826
As a Photoshop 5.0 user, you should be able to download 5.0.2,which has some fixes which may be pertinent to your situation.
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Expert Comment

by:Asta Cu
ID: 1115827
Any luck so far?  Status would be great, perhaps knowing that, other solutions may be posed.
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Expert Comment

by:Asta Cu
ID: 1115828
Windows 98 has different color management routines.  Have you tried START - HELP - color management, and verified you're using the correct ICM interface for your setup and requirements?
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115829
Stiil here!! I did download PS 5.02, no change. I put in a larger hard drive last week and have been busy rearranging stuff. I will get back.
vr
jim
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115830
To all experts,
Did a fresh install of win98 on the new drive with just enough to run the scanner and no change. disconnected zip drive, no change. Checked all color management no problems. Nuts!!!! I give up again. Can a terminator go bad?? The zip drive is supposed to have an internal terminator, maybe I'll put the scanner in the middle, gee I thought I said I just gave up!!!!!
Jim
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Expert Comment

by:Asta Cu
ID: 1115831
I have yet to find a scanner that survives well on the parallel port in sharing mode.  Perhaps there is one.  I assume, that you've downloaded all WIn98 WIndows Update Fixes which address codec problems, if not,  recommend it.

There are so many possibilities as to source of conflict.  
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115832
astaec,
You refer to a parallel port. If I have a SCSI card isn't it in a PCI slot which isn't parallel? Confused.
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115833
To jjfarm,(1)the scsi card comes with the scanner, and you have the update version of your scanner, but have you check the adaptec if you have got the update version for your scanner scsi card, or if you advise me the details of the scsi card, wld like to give some help. Pslh
(2)astaec,by my understanding he was trying to suggest connecting the zip drive (parrallel port compatible-ECP) to the parrallel port. Where connecting the scanner (SCSI configured) to the SCSI card.
(3)hvn't received yr scanned image that have the problems.
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115834
pslh,
sent image today. FYI- I put in a new cdrom yesterday, old was Wearnes, new Creative. Now my PC boots in 45sec vice 2 min. Go figure???
Jim
0
 

Expert Comment

by:pag1
ID: 1115835
Sometimes happens this to me. A little different: when I resize a image, appear colored blocks (cyan, yellow...).
And I think tha I solutioned the problem changing the video card driver.

And I think your problem is in the software, no in the hardware(scanner), because the scanned picture comes pretty good. Isn't?
It "brokes" when you try to modify it. Isn't it?
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115836
To jjfarm,received yr image file.It seemed there are screening effect during scanning.
(1)The bottom of the image, there is a greyscale spectrum but appeared not continuous. There are Dots there. Are those dots also appeared in your original picture.
What is your original picture, a black/white photo or a coloured offset print from books etc.
(2)Try the view size to be 50% or 100%, the checkerboard effect will not be so significant, are you satisfied with that.
(3)Try the scanning, setting the scanner software preferences - using descreen effect, greyscale scanning (one) in 200dpi (another) in 300dpi gamma at 1.0 (not 1.8 nor 2.0).
Save the scanned file in Tiff-compressed format.
(4)Take any other coloured printing picture and scanned in greyscale 200dpi. Save in tiff-compressed format.  
Inspect the effect. Or you may send me copies for study. Tks Pslh
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Author Comment

by:jjfarm
ID: 1115837
pslh,
What I scan is a copied black and white aerial image of farmland.
The squares effect happens only at 66.6%(if 125dpi). Againthat is the bestmagnification for me to work in cause it shows just enough of the picture so I can orient myself to roads, field boundries, woodlines, etc. If I scan at 300dpi then the squares will show at 33.3%. But that dpi takes a long time and is an overkill. I have used every technique I know in scan. I will say that if I blur the image the squares diminish 85%. What I sent you is just a clip of an 8x10. I will try the gamma and tiff though I believe I have saved in all formats.
VR
Jim
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115838
To jjfarm, the screening effect (repeated square or round edged square to circlar shaped moire effect )-  due to the offsetting of the scanned image (the screen mesh number of the photocopier) and monitor (the screen dots per inch of the monitor)- which a visual interference effect.  If you print this image by printer, such screening effect might be occurred too (the screen mesh of the photocopier just fit or overlay with the screen mesh of the printer). In summary, action needed is to descreen.

If you have the data of the screen mesh number of the photocopier, the screen mesh number of the printer and the resolution of the monitor, the size of the image. That will be easier to calculate and to descreen the image.

What I perceived,the image you sent to me- you would like the full image fit into the full-window. What resolution that your monitor display can be changed max. (800x600 or 1024 or 1280 etc) The size of your monitor (15,17,19,21 inches) ? The maximum dpi of your printer (Laser or Jetink) ?    Pslh
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115839
To jjfarm, yr 125dpi image displayed in 100% (% viewed in PS5.0) in 13.5 inch diagonal (effective screen size of the monitor) in resolution of display (1024x768) - just fit into the window and no square-screening effect. Try and test if it can be worked out like that.   Pslh
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Expert Comment

by:Patricia Siu-Lai Ho
ID: 1115840
To jjfarm, full window display of your image:-
image size:5.77 inch height (scan at 125dpi)= 722 pixel, monitor set at 1024x768 then in PS5 view at 100%
image size:5.77 inch height (scan at 100dpi)= 577 pixel, monitor set at 800 x600 then in PS5 view at 100%  
Thus, normally calculate as:
A4 size image about 11 inches (scan at 125dpi), monitor set at 1024x768 then in PS5 view at 50%
A4 size image about 11 inches (scan at 100dpi), monitor set at 800x600 then in PS5 view at 50%
------
For printer printing, 600 dpi for normal screen mesh of laser printer. Thus, advisable that your image scan at 100dpi or in divisable whole numbers of 600. (ie 100,120,150,200,300,600 dpi)
------
In suggestion, scan your image at A4 size at 120 dpi without losing original details. Set monitor display at 1024x768 to view at 50% in archieving full window display for full page in working. Hope that will be helped. Pslh
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Accepted Solution

by:
graham_phish earned 100 total points
ID: 1115841
Is this microtek scanner a 36bit, or 30bit scanner??  Is it USB?  It sounds like you have a cheap scanner.  I recommend you go to www.umax.com.  I have a 1200U edition and the quality is great!  It runs around $180, you can get it in USB or parallel.
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by:Moondancer
ID: 6875870
GREETINGS!

This question was awarded, but never cleared due to the JSP-500 errors of that time.  It was "stuck" against userID -1 versus the intended expert whom you awarded.  This corrects the problem and the expert will now receive these points; points verified.

Please click on your Member Profile and select "View Question History" to navigate through any open or locked questions you may have to update and finalize them.  If you are an EE Pro user, you can also choose Power Search to find all your open questions.

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