mr_t25
asked on
CD-RW
Is it possible to create audio tracks on a CD-RW (rewritable CDs). If so, should I format the CD-RW in DirectCD format when purchased. If I dont format it and I copy the tracks, how do I then delete them?
ASKER
Hi
Someone told me on an old question of mine, that a good way to practice making CDs is to copy them onto a CD-RW. How can this be good if you cannot test them on a CD player?
Can anything be done with a CD-RW if it is not formatted in DirectCD?
Someone told me on an old question of mine, that a good way to practice making CDs is to copy them onto a CD-RW. How can this be good if you cannot test them on a CD player?
Can anything be done with a CD-RW if it is not formatted in DirectCD?
USe Verbatim CD-R for AUDIO cds . CD-RW are expensive but in order to record it again you have to FULLY ERASE IT. and that will take 1 hour or more. and CD-RW will hold around 630 megs. this is like around 70 minutes. I have done it in CD-RW and it holds that much I do not about other brands but that depend on the type of MEDIA you buy.
Please reject the answer if does not meet your criteria.
seems like that was not the answer you were looking for.
Please reject the answer if does not meet your criteria.
seems like that was not the answer you were looking for.
Hi MR!
Although this is closely related to your other question, some comments here are worthwhile for you.
You ask: Is it possible to create audio tracks on a CD-RW (rewritable CDs)?
Yes it is possible and the better the media the better the performance will be.
You ask:If so, should I format the CD-RW in DirectCD format when purchased.
No, even the cheaper CD-RW media are ready to go.
You ask: If I dont format it and I copy the tracks, how do I then delete them?
You are never actually deleting or erasing anything. CD-RW's write over. Even though you are, in theory, erasing the disk, the data is still recoverable as long as it is not overwritten.
Tech comment: Also note the CD-Rw will only read in CD-Rw drives.
This is untrue. With a little research you will find that if you build an audio cd, it will play in a computer, home stereo, car stereo and even in a portable.
Your comment: Someone told me on an old question of mine, that a good way to practice making CDs is to copy them onto a CD-RW. How can this be good if you cannot test them on a CD player?
Makes sense to me and to the manufacturers of CD-RW drives. Until the advent of the CD-RW most of us that tested and used the old CD-R drives made hundreds of hockey pucks to test how to write cd's. Your on the right track, just be persistent and learn as much as you can.
Dennis
Although this is closely related to your other question, some comments here are worthwhile for you.
You ask: Is it possible to create audio tracks on a CD-RW (rewritable CDs)?
Yes it is possible and the better the media the better the performance will be.
You ask:If so, should I format the CD-RW in DirectCD format when purchased.
No, even the cheaper CD-RW media are ready to go.
You ask: If I dont format it and I copy the tracks, how do I then delete them?
You are never actually deleting or erasing anything. CD-RW's write over. Even though you are, in theory, erasing the disk, the data is still recoverable as long as it is not overwritten.
Tech comment: Also note the CD-Rw will only read in CD-Rw drives.
This is untrue. With a little research you will find that if you build an audio cd, it will play in a computer, home stereo, car stereo and even in a portable.
Your comment: Someone told me on an old question of mine, that a good way to practice making CDs is to copy them onto a CD-RW. How can this be good if you cannot test them on a CD player?
Makes sense to me and to the manufacturers of CD-RW drives. Until the advent of the CD-RW most of us that tested and used the old CD-R drives made hundreds of hockey pucks to test how to write cd's. Your on the right track, just be persistent and learn as much as you can.
Dennis
CD-Rw have a much lower reflectivity than ordinary CDs and CD-R. Try it yourself. It's beacuase they use a totally different method of storing data (pits and grooves for pressed CDs, burnable dye layer for CD-R, and some sort of crystaline morphic thing that can have it's reflectivity changed by lasers for CD-RW)
You play CD-Rw only in CD-Rw drives, and some newer expensive DC-ROM with the special gain circuit required.
You play CD-Rw only in CD-Rw drives, and some newer expensive DC-ROM with the special gain circuit required.
ASKER
Hi all
I'm no where near to understanding all this to when I first posted this question, in fact I'm now more confused as we have some conflicting views!
Can someone who HAS ACTUALLY TRIED THIS please verify if this is correct or not, and not speculate on some theoretical significance.
1. Will a RE-WRITABLE CD i.e CD-Rw work in any CD machine other than a CD-ROM, therefore a hifi or a car? My own belief is that it will not becuase my own data CD-RW does not work in my other computer unless I install a special UDF program.
"Tech comment: Also note the CD-Rw will only read in CD-Rw drives.
This is untrue. With a little research you will find that if you build an audio cd, it will play in a computer, home stereo, car stereo and even in a portable. "
- I dont if a CD-RW will read in a car?
2. Istl "and CD-RW will hold around 630 megs. "
I thought syzygy said you can only get 500 megs of usable space, how can it be on a type of media, surely it's a software burning thing?
3. dew_associate says that a CD-RW can be used to both COPY tracks and play them on a hifi or car, and then ERASE them at some point later.
My question is that if you dont format a CD-RW at all, how will it be able to copy anything, will it be treated as a normal CD-R. I ask this becuase when I first bought my CD recorder, I thought it rejected the CD when I tried.
confusing stuff! :)
Thanks to all.
Rgds.
I'm no where near to understanding all this to when I first posted this question, in fact I'm now more confused as we have some conflicting views!
Can someone who HAS ACTUALLY TRIED THIS please verify if this is correct or not, and not speculate on some theoretical significance.
1. Will a RE-WRITABLE CD i.e CD-Rw work in any CD machine other than a CD-ROM, therefore a hifi or a car? My own belief is that it will not becuase my own data CD-RW does not work in my other computer unless I install a special UDF program.
"Tech comment: Also note the CD-Rw will only read in CD-Rw drives.
This is untrue. With a little research you will find that if you build an audio cd, it will play in a computer, home stereo, car stereo and even in a portable. "
- I dont if a CD-RW will read in a car?
2. Istl "and CD-RW will hold around 630 megs. "
I thought syzygy said you can only get 500 megs of usable space, how can it be on a type of media, surely it's a software burning thing?
3. dew_associate says that a CD-RW can be used to both COPY tracks and play them on a hifi or car, and then ERASE them at some point later.
My question is that if you dont format a CD-RW at all, how will it be able to copy anything, will it be treated as a normal CD-R. I ask this becuase when I first bought my CD recorder, I thought it rejected the CD when I tried.
confusing stuff! :)
Thanks to all.
Rgds.
1) CD-Rw work only in CD-RW drives, I have tried.
2) I should have been a bit clearer.. If you use Direct CD, you can get 500 MB on a CD, you access liek a floppy disk, and it supports random erasing but you do not recover the disk space. Or you can use them as ordinary CD-Rs, (With the same capacity, at least with the DIsk I'm using) and then erase the data with the direct CD erase utillity, efectivly making a new blank disk. (this is how you have to recover space with Direct CD, by a format)
3) You can place Audio on a CD-RW, but only a CD-RW drive will be able to read it. It will play as an audio CD while in there, (assuming the cd-audio connector going to your sound card is from the CD-RW and not the CD-ROM) but will not read in an CD player. On my system, the message no-disc comes up.
The first thing I did to test the CD-RW disc when I got my drive was copy an audio CD. Worked perfectly in the CD-RW, but not in any other palyers. Then I formatted it with direct CD, and now use it as a 500 disk to backup data onto every week by just dragging the files over.
2) I should have been a bit clearer.. If you use Direct CD, you can get 500 MB on a CD, you access liek a floppy disk, and it supports random erasing but you do not recover the disk space. Or you can use them as ordinary CD-Rs, (With the same capacity, at least with the DIsk I'm using) and then erase the data with the direct CD erase utillity, efectivly making a new blank disk. (this is how you have to recover space with Direct CD, by a format)
3) You can place Audio on a CD-RW, but only a CD-RW drive will be able to read it. It will play as an audio CD while in there, (assuming the cd-audio connector going to your sound card is from the CD-RW and not the CD-ROM) but will not read in an CD player. On my system, the message no-disc comes up.
The first thing I did to test the CD-RW disc when I got my drive was copy an audio CD. Worked perfectly in the CD-RW, but not in any other palyers. Then I formatted it with direct CD, and now use it as a 500 disk to backup data onto every week by just dragging the files over.
MR, I have no clue what syzygy is doing, whether it's the equipment he owns, lack of software, inadequate manuals, lack of understanding or all of the above, but music (audio) cd's can be burned fresh (meaning a media collection you have built and saved to your hard drive) or copied from an existing CD. You "must" copy the entire cd, which implies that you must create the directory or track listing as well. Your home or auto cd player (and even your computer cd player) won't be able to play the music cd without it. We have an HP 8100 series CD-WR and an HP 6000 CD-R as well as Pansonic, Sony, Phillips and other model CD drives, and anything we burn we can play in any one of them. The average is 74 Minutes and/or 650MB. Adaptec's Easy CD Creator is about the best software going these operations. As for needing a CD-R or CD-RW to read these, and without insulting anyone, "bunk". If that were the case, why bother if you can't burn them and use them elsewhere.
Here's the URL, you can check it for your self!
http://www.adaptec.com/products/overview/ecdc.html
And I quote,
"Easily create data, audio, and multimedia CDs on your PC
Play custom music CDs in any standard CD player or computer CD-ROM drive
Send video postcards on CD that automatically play on any PC - no special software required!
Share photo albums with family and friends on CD, and they'll be able to view them - no special software required!
Back up important files such as spreadsheets, tax records and financial data"
Your questions:
1. Will a RE-WRITABLE CD i.e CD-Rw work in any CD machine other than a CD-ROM, therefore a hifi or a car? My own belief is that it will not because my own data CD-RW does not work in my other computer unless I install a special UDF program.
Response: If the data cannot be read, then the software being used is not setup properly or your not following procedure. We do this ever day to send updates to customers as well as to send samples of everything from self-installing software fixes and updates to sample web pages.
"Tech comment: Also note the CD-Rw will only read in CD-Rw drives. This is untrue. With a little research you will find that if you build an audio cd, it will play in a computer, home stereo, car stereo and even in a portable. " - I dont if a CD-RW will read in a car?
Response: See my comment above, a quote directly from Adaptec's Easy CD Creator site, URL above!
2. Istl "and CD-RW will hold around 630 megs. " I thought syzygy said you can only get 500 megs of usable space, how can it be on a type of media, surely it's a software burning thing?
Response: syzygy is way off, and Istal is close. It's 650MB and/or 74 minutes playing time. Obviously, if your group of songs is only 800 MB's or 2 hours then only 650MB or 74 minutes will be burned to the CD. Same for data.
3. dew_associate says that a CD-RW can be used to both COPY tracks and play them on a hifi or car, and then ERASE them at some point later. My question is that if you dont format a CD-RW at all, how will it be able to copy anything, will it be treated as a normal CD-R. I ask this becuase when I first bought my CD recorder, I thought it rejected the CD when I tried.
Response: The principles used in preparing a floppy or hard drive, eg: formatting, are not the same as for a laser disk (cd). Blank CD's are pre-prepared to accept either data or music, and with certain types of software, you can burn data, such as a graphics presentation as in Microsoft's Powerpoint and also burn music.
I have no idea what type of disk you inserted to know why it rejected it, but unless it was a re-writable cd, written with the same software, you probably won't be able to "erase" it. You may be able to overwrite it, presuming again that it is a re-writable cd.
Check the site and you'll see I'm write!
Dennis
Here's the URL, you can check it for your self!
http://www.adaptec.com/products/overview/ecdc.html
And I quote,
"Easily create data, audio, and multimedia CDs on your PC
Play custom music CDs in any standard CD player or computer CD-ROM drive
Send video postcards on CD that automatically play on any PC - no special software required!
Share photo albums with family and friends on CD, and they'll be able to view them - no special software required!
Back up important files such as spreadsheets, tax records and financial data"
Your questions:
1. Will a RE-WRITABLE CD i.e CD-Rw work in any CD machine other than a CD-ROM, therefore a hifi or a car? My own belief is that it will not because my own data CD-RW does not work in my other computer unless I install a special UDF program.
Response: If the data cannot be read, then the software being used is not setup properly or your not following procedure. We do this ever day to send updates to customers as well as to send samples of everything from self-installing software fixes and updates to sample web pages.
"Tech comment: Also note the CD-Rw will only read in CD-Rw drives. This is untrue. With a little research you will find that if you build an audio cd, it will play in a computer, home stereo, car stereo and even in a portable. " - I dont if a CD-RW will read in a car?
Response: See my comment above, a quote directly from Adaptec's Easy CD Creator site, URL above!
2. Istl "and CD-RW will hold around 630 megs. " I thought syzygy said you can only get 500 megs of usable space, how can it be on a type of media, surely it's a software burning thing?
Response: syzygy is way off, and Istal is close. It's 650MB and/or 74 minutes playing time. Obviously, if your group of songs is only 800 MB's or 2 hours then only 650MB or 74 minutes will be burned to the CD. Same for data.
3. dew_associate says that a CD-RW can be used to both COPY tracks and play them on a hifi or car, and then ERASE them at some point later. My question is that if you dont format a CD-RW at all, how will it be able to copy anything, will it be treated as a normal CD-R. I ask this becuase when I first bought my CD recorder, I thought it rejected the CD when I tried.
Response: The principles used in preparing a floppy or hard drive, eg: formatting, are not the same as for a laser disk (cd). Blank CD's are pre-prepared to accept either data or music, and with certain types of software, you can burn data, such as a graphics presentation as in Microsoft's Powerpoint and also burn music.
I have no idea what type of disk you inserted to know why it rejected it, but unless it was a re-writable cd, written with the same software, you probably won't be able to "erase" it. You may be able to overwrite it, presuming again that it is a re-writable cd.
Check the site and you'll see I'm write!
Dennis
And yes, I intended to print <write> a pun intended!
630 megs is the closest you can get around burning. maybe 635 . you got to remember that depending on the software you use there will be space need in order to write the TOC. in the CD, you cant use 650 megs completely. and if you try then the CD will not have a close section. 630 limits can change depending on the lenght of the music. and also the software you use might require more or less than 20 megs. in order to write the TOC.
And yes, I intended to print <write> a pun intended!
Istal, you can't admit your wrong even when everyone knows your wrong. 650 MB's of data is 650 no matter how you count it, with or without the TOC. If I burn a CD with 300 DLL files on it totaling 649MB in packet format, I don't need a TOC and it's still 649MB's. Enough said!
dew_associates:
these discs you made for other players: were they CD-Recordable of CD-Rewritable???
CD-R will work fine in just about any player. In my experience (and from what I have heard from other people) CD-RW will not work at all in any but a CD-RW drive.
I just tried again... still no go. Not in my CD-ROM, not in my CD-Player, not in a friends player, not in a friends CD ROM, not in a friends CD burner. . the disk is CD-RW with 2 Audio tracks on it. It plays perfectly in My CD-RW drive.
these discs you made for other players: were they CD-Recordable of CD-Rewritable???
CD-R will work fine in just about any player. In my experience (and from what I have heard from other people) CD-RW will not work at all in any but a CD-RW drive.
I just tried again... still no go. Not in my CD-ROM, not in my CD-Player, not in a friends player, not in a friends CD ROM, not in a friends CD burner. . the disk is CD-RW with 2 Audio tracks on it. It plays perfectly in My CD-RW drive.
DENNIS, you are the only wrong one here with your attitude. GROW UP!!!!.
that's what you learned from the MSCE WIN98(That you mentioned before), that a CD do not need a TOC in order to work in every CD PLAYER. I think you need to go back and retake the test fairly.
Also, go to Church and learn to be humble.
that's what you learned from the MSCE WIN98(That you mentioned before), that a CD do not need a TOC in order to work in every CD PLAYER. I think you need to go back and retake the test fairly.
Also, go to Church and learn to be humble.
syzygy, they are cd-rw disks written in packet format (audio). Data cd's are written the same way, but closed session.
Istal, I'm just going to ignore you. Your insulting and juvenile and not worth the time necessary to argue.
Istal, I'm just going to ignore you. Your insulting and juvenile and not worth the time necessary to argue.
syzygy, you may want to check MR's other question. There are issues as to which media to use depending upon the type of cd rom drive that is going to read these cd's. Since most of what we provide are both Atapi and packet qualified, there's never been an issue, but I understand (from Adaptec and HP) that some older cd rom drives as well as older non-dynamic cd rom players cannot read cd-rw media. In which case you would have to use cd-r only.
Dennis
Dennis
ASKER
I'm going to have to look into this a little bit more, but just to reply to some of the comments above, I can confirm that I know the following is true based on my experience;
1) Re-Writable CDs (CD-RW) will not work in all CD-ROMS. Older CD ROMS like my 4x one, does not recognise the CD UNLESS I install a special UDF program from Adaptec's web site. This program helps the old CD ROM to understand the code. HOWEVER, the latest CD ROMs on the whole ARE able to read CD-RWs WITHOUT the need for the UDF program. Having said that I bought a TEAC 32x CD ROM in the USA last Xmas and am using it here in the UK. It would not read the CD-RW unless I installed the UDF program. So I guess it really does depend on the type and date of manufacterer.
Guys lets not get into a slanging match, we have Newsgroups for that sort of thing! :)
..hmm now I have to collate all this information and somehow cut bits out that conflict with other opinions and look up the various types of CD media and packet things! urgh, I'm tempted to just ask the large computer store, but they are useless becuase they are all low paid students! ho-hum.
1) Re-Writable CDs (CD-RW) will not work in all CD-ROMS. Older CD ROMS like my 4x one, does not recognise the CD UNLESS I install a special UDF program from Adaptec's web site. This program helps the old CD ROM to understand the code. HOWEVER, the latest CD ROMs on the whole ARE able to read CD-RWs WITHOUT the need for the UDF program. Having said that I bought a TEAC 32x CD ROM in the USA last Xmas and am using it here in the UK. It would not read the CD-RW unless I installed the UDF program. So I guess it really does depend on the type and date of manufacterer.
Guys lets not get into a slanging match, we have Newsgroups for that sort of thing! :)
..hmm now I have to collate all this information and somehow cut bits out that conflict with other opinions and look up the various types of CD media and packet things! urgh, I'm tempted to just ask the large computer store, but they are useless becuase they are all low paid students! ho-hum.
ASFAIK the UDF reader affects only the ability to decode the data... It does not enable drives to read CD-RW (though they definatly wont read it without it)
You can make CD-R with UDF as well... not much point though. (since you can close then as ISO 9660)
If your CD player will play CD-RW, lucky you. Mine wont, no matter what I do an dI have yet to encounter one that does. Latter CD ROMS should be OK (My 24 speed won't) But I am unaware of CD players that do... It doesn't make sense for companies to pay extra to include a feature on theior Cd Player most people in the world will never use and that allows people to make their own CDs over and over again without buying them from big producers....
You can make CD-R with UDF as well... not much point though. (since you can close then as ISO 9660)
If your CD player will play CD-RW, lucky you. Mine wont, no matter what I do an dI have yet to encounter one that does. Latter CD ROMS should be OK (My 24 speed won't) But I am unaware of CD players that do... It doesn't make sense for companies to pay extra to include a feature on theior Cd Player most people in the world will never use and that allows people to make their own CDs over and over again without buying them from big producers....
Check www.MP3.COM for CD players that support CD-RW . they have a list of new equipment which does. so you get an IDEA of it.
MR_T25, if you want more comments, and maybe a faster answer. reject the answer that it is above. which has been locked for a week. locking a question avoid more Experts come to give you more ideas, unlocking (rejecting) will bring more people over and give you more ideas. if you really want to find a solution that would be the best to do.
ASKER
I spoke to a distributor of blank CDs in London today. He told me it is possible to copy audio CDs to CD-RW and play them, but was not sure of the procedure and asked me to call tech support outside lunch hours.
Sorry syzygy I'll have to reject your answer this time, although I'm still researching all comments on this thread and the other one. If anyone has a definate answer then please post, otherwise post as a comment, thx.
Sorry syzygy I'll have to reject your answer this time, although I'm still researching all comments on this thread and the other one. If anyone has a definate answer then please post, otherwise post as a comment, thx.
MR_T25, when you find a comment as the answer to your question, invite the Expert to answer it. that would be best to do. you decide fairly who gave you the correct answer. As long as it solve or got close to your criteria.
SyZygy, sorry. but I was expecting you to ask to be rejected. but did not do. you know as an expert that when a question is locked. and more over a week in both questions. then it avoid chance of other participating. Bottom line, everybody should give the chance to help.
100 people can provide more help than 5 people.
SyZygy, sorry. but I was expecting you to ask to be rejected. but did not do. you know as an expert that when a question is locked. and more over a week in both questions. then it avoid chance of other participating. Bottom line, everybody should give the chance to help.
100 people can provide more help than 5 people.
I took a blank Phillips CD-RW (Not Formatted), and copied a full Audio CD onto it. I then put it in my daughters Boogie-Box and it played as a normal Audio CD.
When she was tired of it, I formatted it using Direct CD, and now I can read and write files to it, just like a disc drive.
Does that answer the original question?
When she was tired of it, I formatted it using Direct CD, and now I can read and write files to it, just like a disc drive.
Does that answer the original question?
ASKER
Laphroaig you have come close to answering my question.
Can you please just describe the steps you took to copy the audio CD to a brand new CD-RW (did you use Easy CD Creator?). Also were you able, or did you try to erase the CD and copy another audio CD to the CD-RW before you formatted it for use with Direct CD?
Thanks.
Can you please just describe the steps you took to copy the audio CD to a brand new CD-RW (did you use Easy CD Creator?). Also were you able, or did you try to erase the CD and copy another audio CD to the CD-RW before you formatted it for use with Direct CD?
Thanks.
and also it would be important, what brand of CD-RW it was.
ASKER
I believe he mentions Phillps CD RW. I doubt very much the ability to write music to a CD-RW and then erase it before copying tracks on there again would have anything to do with a brand. Surely it's a software thing, I dont think you can get different types of CD-RW?
yes there is different type of Cd-RW, some are 500 megs in size others go to 650 megs in size. also, the surface is different, some are golden and some are silver. this is different when it comes to durability an use. for music, the golden one is usually recommended to use than the silver one.
Istal, as stated in my last comment, the CD-RW disk was a Philips brand.
mr-t25. When you take a new CD-RW disk out of it's box, it is totally blank. Just like a CD-R. You only need to format it if you wish to read or write to it like a large Floppy or a hard disk. Once formatted, you can then re-blank it using the erase disk option with DirectCD and then use it like a CD-R again.
I actually copied the Audio-CD onto a blank (Unformatted) CD-RW disk by using the Create Audio CD facility on CeQuadrat's WinOnCD program. You can do exactly the same under Adaptec's Easy CD Creator. You can use the Create Audio CD wizard or just drag and drop CD-DA tracks (Music Tracks) that you want to copy.
A blank CD-RW is just like a CD-R (record once only) unless you format it where it then becomes like a hard-disk or large floppy where you can read/write files. But because CD-RW is re-recordable, you can then erase it under DirectCD to make it blank again, or re-format it under DirectCD just like reformatting a floppy disk.
I have re-formatted and blanked the same CD's many times without problems. The only thing you need to bear in mind, is that the reflective layer on CD-RW media is less then on commercial silver CD's. Therefore some older CD players might not be able to play it. This is a physical problem that you can do nothing about. I have never had any trouble in making an Audio CD out of CD-RW media and playing it on Walkman/Hi-Fi etc.
Another thing to bear in mind is that if you format a CD-RW then it will only read from a UDF compatable CD Rom reader.
mr-t25. When you take a new CD-RW disk out of it's box, it is totally blank. Just like a CD-R. You only need to format it if you wish to read or write to it like a large Floppy or a hard disk. Once formatted, you can then re-blank it using the erase disk option with DirectCD and then use it like a CD-R again.
I actually copied the Audio-CD onto a blank (Unformatted) CD-RW disk by using the Create Audio CD facility on CeQuadrat's WinOnCD program. You can do exactly the same under Adaptec's Easy CD Creator. You can use the Create Audio CD wizard or just drag and drop CD-DA tracks (Music Tracks) that you want to copy.
A blank CD-RW is just like a CD-R (record once only) unless you format it where it then becomes like a hard-disk or large floppy where you can read/write files. But because CD-RW is re-recordable, you can then erase it under DirectCD to make it blank again, or re-format it under DirectCD just like reformatting a floppy disk.
I have re-formatted and blanked the same CD's many times without problems. The only thing you need to bear in mind, is that the reflective layer on CD-RW media is less then on commercial silver CD's. Therefore some older CD players might not be able to play it. This is a physical problem that you can do nothing about. I have never had any trouble in making an Audio CD out of CD-RW media and playing it on Walkman/Hi-Fi etc.
Another thing to bear in mind is that if you format a CD-RW then it will only read from a UDF compatable CD Rom reader.
ASKER
Hi again Laphroaig
Thanks for answering my question, please reply as an answer and I'll award you the points.
Just taking this thing a step further, from all the comments that I have read here;
1) Is it true you only get 500 megs or 630 megs total useage after TOC is written. i.e Do you manage to use the full capacity of the 74 min CD?
2) Does TOC have any part in this?
3) Is it possible to use a CD-RW in the manner of a mini-disc, so that you can copy a few audio tracks at different times, or does the session have to be completed in its entireity at once?
4) When you say you have no problem with "silver" CDs, I have not come across any that are silver side down. Only green/blue side down which are to be burnt (CD-R). Is silver much better and are they easy to get hold of?
Sounds silly, but I was worried that if I had created a duplicate audio CD onto a new CD-RW costing about $20 and it didn't erase then I've lost the CD. That does not now seem the case though.
Thanks to everyone who commented on this thread, I'm sure you all learnt something from this and might go away thinking that you can change your methods.
I've adjusted the points for this question accordingly to 100 due to the nature of this debate. (You might also want to look at my other question and comment on what has been said.
https://www.experts-exchange.com/topics/bin/Q.10112452
Thanks for answering my question, please reply as an answer and I'll award you the points.
Just taking this thing a step further, from all the comments that I have read here;
1) Is it true you only get 500 megs or 630 megs total useage after TOC is written. i.e Do you manage to use the full capacity of the 74 min CD?
2) Does TOC have any part in this?
3) Is it possible to use a CD-RW in the manner of a mini-disc, so that you can copy a few audio tracks at different times, or does the session have to be completed in its entireity at once?
4) When you say you have no problem with "silver" CDs, I have not come across any that are silver side down. Only green/blue side down which are to be burnt (CD-R). Is silver much better and are they easy to get hold of?
Sounds silly, but I was worried that if I had created a duplicate audio CD onto a new CD-RW costing about $20 and it didn't erase then I've lost the CD. That does not now seem the case though.
Thanks to everyone who commented on this thread, I'm sure you all learnt something from this and might go away thinking that you can change your methods.
I've adjusted the points for this question accordingly to 100 due to the nature of this debate. (You might also want to look at my other question and comment on what has been said.
https://www.experts-exchange.com/topics/bin/Q.10112452
"When you take a new CD-RW disk out of it's box, it is totally blank. Just like a CD-R. You only need to format it if you wish to read or write to it like a large Floppy or a hard disk. "
I will disagree in that it is like a floppy disk or HD. to start a CD-RW. the ones that I have used Memorex do not need to be formatted. I do not think you need to format a CD-RW before using the first time. the format options comes after the first time they have been already used. other thing to take in consideration is that it needs to be formatted fully and not in a quick way which mean that it just delete the TOC of the CD-RW. Formatting fully means to put the laser in each track and delete each part of it. which usually will take about an hour or more for a fully used CD-RW. the quick erase will take about 5 or less minute depending on the speed of the computer to finish the task.Also, the recommended step is that if you plan to use a CD-RW for other equipment, you need to fully format it. and not to do a quick format. which create problems on being read in normal CD-ROM home machines. so if you need to use CD-RW at home in a regular cd player. you need to do a full format and record to it. this will assure that it plays in any cd player.
DO you need more clarification? YOu could use any CD burner software as long as it is compatible with the CD-RW model that you have. remember that not all software is compatible with every model out there. if you are going to record CD, use a program called CD-DART PRO 3. this program can be used in any machine but it is a professional software used in STUDIOS at it can cost around 300$ just the application. Also, this is the kind of software that DJs used with CD-RW in order to create their mixes and be able to be playable in any machine.
I will disagree in that it is like a floppy disk or HD. to start a CD-RW. the ones that I have used Memorex do not need to be formatted. I do not think you need to format a CD-RW before using the first time. the format options comes after the first time they have been already used. other thing to take in consideration is that it needs to be formatted fully and not in a quick way which mean that it just delete the TOC of the CD-RW. Formatting fully means to put the laser in each track and delete each part of it. which usually will take about an hour or more for a fully used CD-RW. the quick erase will take about 5 or less minute depending on the speed of the computer to finish the task.Also, the recommended step is that if you plan to use a CD-RW for other equipment, you need to fully format it. and not to do a quick format. which create problems on being read in normal CD-ROM home machines. so if you need to use CD-RW at home in a regular cd player. you need to do a full format and record to it. this will assure that it plays in any cd player.
DO you need more clarification? YOu could use any CD burner software as long as it is compatible with the CD-RW model that you have. remember that not all software is compatible with every model out there. if you are going to record CD, use a program called CD-DART PRO 3. this program can be used in any machine but it is a professional software used in STUDIOS at it can cost around 300$ just the application. Also, this is the kind of software that DJs used with CD-RW in order to create their mixes and be able to be playable in any machine.
"or just drag and drop CD-DA tracks (Music Tracks) that you want to copy. "
CD-DA tracks to start, are a format that are readable in any machine, the process of CD-DA to be copy to any CD is that it is converted to WAV format in the HD, and then to CD-DA format. also, when you record music to CD-RW or CD-R you have to make sure to select type 2 for the CD-RECORDER which mean is CD-DA compatible. when a CD is only playable in the CD-ROM of the computer is because it was not created with the correct format. if you create a CD-ROM with TYPE 1 (CD-ROM) this will only be playable in the CD-ROM of the computer as it is the case of some games tracks.
I disagree with Laproaigh answer. but it is not completely satisfactory to me.
CD-DA tracks to start, are a format that are readable in any machine, the process of CD-DA to be copy to any CD is that it is converted to WAV format in the HD, and then to CD-DA format. also, when you record music to CD-RW or CD-R you have to make sure to select type 2 for the CD-RECORDER which mean is CD-DA compatible. when a CD is only playable in the CD-ROM of the computer is because it was not created with the correct format. if you create a CD-ROM with TYPE 1 (CD-ROM) this will only be playable in the CD-ROM of the computer as it is the case of some games tracks.
I disagree with Laproaigh answer. but it is not completely satisfactory to me.
Well Istal, it looks as though you and I finally agree on something, that is to disagree with the accepted answer. I believe that Laproaigh's answer is a combination of the information that has alreay been already posted here. There is little that is new other than maybe his comment that I have brand "X" and this is what I did! Be that as it may MR.. if it works for you, then it works for me!
1) Is it true you only get 500 megs or 630 megs total useage after TOC is written. i.e Do you manage to use the full capacity of the 74 min CD?
Ok, MR_T25, here it is a more deep explanation,some CD-R(W) will hold 500 MEGS, but this will be the 60 minutes CD-R(W). there is 2 different types of CD MEDIA and when you buy them it will tell you the maximum capacity.
2) Does TOC have any part in this?
Yes TOC, has to do with it, (TABLE OF CONTENT) it is a record in the CD media, which tell the exact place where the tracks are located. a quick format delete the TOC, which mean that it does delete the needed information to tell the machine that there is information, the bad thing is that doing a quick format will make you overwrite information over tracks, corrupting information. therefore, a regular machine will not read the CD-RW if it is quick format. Now full format, means deleting the whole TOC and CD.
which if recorded properly it will be playable in any machine.
3) Is it possible to use a CD-RW in the manner of a mini-disc, so that you can copy a few audio tracks at different times, or does the session have to be completed in its entireity at once?
well, when you try to record track after track, there will be 23 megs of gap between one and the other, which mean that if you record tracks later less space will be available and the capacity will be shorten. now CD-DA format, let you add more tracks, remember that you need to save the old layout of the original record, you just can drop it and add it. this will make the other tracks not to be playable. what you are refering is a multisession. which is made at the same way as saving regular data, just that with CD-DA format.
CD-ROM format (only readable in computer) will close the section and not let you add more.
4) When you say you have no problem with "silver" CDs, I have not come across any that are silver side down. Only green/blue side down which are to be burnt (CD-R). Is silver much better and are they easy to get hold of?
Silver CD are the most common CDs, Golden ones are more expensive, Golden CD are better for audio.CD-R are the most used because they are cheap. 1.50$ each.
Ok, MR_T25, here it is a more deep explanation,some CD-R(W) will hold 500 MEGS, but this will be the 60 minutes CD-R(W). there is 2 different types of CD MEDIA and when you buy them it will tell you the maximum capacity.
2) Does TOC have any part in this?
Yes TOC, has to do with it, (TABLE OF CONTENT) it is a record in the CD media, which tell the exact place where the tracks are located. a quick format delete the TOC, which mean that it does delete the needed information to tell the machine that there is information, the bad thing is that doing a quick format will make you overwrite information over tracks, corrupting information. therefore, a regular machine will not read the CD-RW if it is quick format. Now full format, means deleting the whole TOC and CD.
which if recorded properly it will be playable in any machine.
3) Is it possible to use a CD-RW in the manner of a mini-disc, so that you can copy a few audio tracks at different times, or does the session have to be completed in its entireity at once?
well, when you try to record track after track, there will be 23 megs of gap between one and the other, which mean that if you record tracks later less space will be available and the capacity will be shorten. now CD-DA format, let you add more tracks, remember that you need to save the old layout of the original record, you just can drop it and add it. this will make the other tracks not to be playable. what you are refering is a multisession. which is made at the same way as saving regular data, just that with CD-DA format.
CD-ROM format (only readable in computer) will close the section and not let you add more.
4) When you say you have no problem with "silver" CDs, I have not come across any that are silver side down. Only green/blue side down which are to be burnt (CD-R). Is silver much better and are they easy to get hold of?
Silver CD are the most common CDs, Golden ones are more expensive, Golden CD are better for audio.CD-R are the most used because they are cheap. 1.50$ each.
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Hi Laphroaig
I think you might have missed my lasy posting. Can you comment on what the others have said (as per my posting).
I think you might have missed my lasy posting. Can you comment on what the others have said (as per my posting).
Hi mr_t25
The only CD-RW disks that I have ever used are Philips, Traxdata, Sony, and TDK. They have all been 74 min audio time or 650 Mb in size. They are all the same colour and they all come unformatted. I have no knowledge of any other types of CD-RW, but that is not to say that they dont exist.
The reason that they come unformatted is that a. You can record straight onto them as CD-R's without any preparation, and more importantly b. The formatting standard for using the CD-RW disks for read/write access varies somewhat between different applications and operating systems. The standard these days is fairly universal with the advent of UDF, but early CD-RW's did'nt use UDF and the format was different. CD-RW's are also used on other computers like Apple Macs, and a manufacturer will not pre-format his disk's for a specific OS, knowing that he will be marketing his disks for a broad range of computer types and OS's. It's like buying a box of floppies that have been formatted for Acorn systems, which you then have to blank and then re-format for PC's. It's easier to distribute the disks blank, and then allow the buyer to format to his own specification. This is doubly true with CD-RW's because the blanking and formatting process for each disk is quite long.
When a disk is rated for 650mb of data, then that is what you get. The 650 mb includes everything, Lead-in, lead-out, data in whatever format, and table of contents if applicable.
74 minutes of pure audio time in CD-DA format equates to 635mb of pure data. The rest of the data is allocated to lead in and lead out data which all CD's require. In order to get a full 74 minutes of Audio, then you have to record your CD as 'Disc-at-once'. This will then lay down a lead in to your first track, then record all subsequent tracks with no pause in between, and then a lead out which terminates the play process.
An Audio CD recorded as 'Disk at once' will play the the whole CD from start to finish without allowing the option of choosing different tracks in different orders. It's just like putting an LP on a turntable and pressing the start button.
If you record an Audio CD as 'Track at once', then it will record A lead in, each track with a two second gap in between, a table of contents, and a lead out. The TOC is a database of all tracks and their locations. It allows the CD player to give you the option of choosing different tracks to play and in different orders. The amount of pure audio time you can record in this mode, varies but it will be less than 74 minutes. The more tracks that you have then the longer the table of contents will be.
You cannot use Audio CD's recorded on CD-RW disks like mini-disks and play them on a hi-fi etc., because the majority of normal audio CD players require the disc to be closed. That means that the lead out data will prevent any further recording on the disc. You can do this if you play your recorded Audio on a Compatible multi-read cd-rom player because their software is designed to allow Audio CD playing on multi-session discs that hav'nt been closed. A sony walkman player, however, could not cope with it.
All the CD-RW discs that I have come accross, have all been the same colour on the recording side. A silvery, greyish blue. This is because there is only one technology that allows CD-RW discs to work the way that they do. All manufacturers use this same technology.
CD-R's are different where the early ones were basically Gold, and later technology has allowed Blue or Green dye on silver to enable a higher reflectivity.
I have never had a problem with recording audio onto a £15.00 CD-RW and then erasing it afterward for other uses. That only relates to the disc brands that I mentioned earlier. I can't account for other brands that I've never used.
The only CD-RW disks that I have ever used are Philips, Traxdata, Sony, and TDK. They have all been 74 min audio time or 650 Mb in size. They are all the same colour and they all come unformatted. I have no knowledge of any other types of CD-RW, but that is not to say that they dont exist.
The reason that they come unformatted is that a. You can record straight onto them as CD-R's without any preparation, and more importantly b. The formatting standard for using the CD-RW disks for read/write access varies somewhat between different applications and operating systems. The standard these days is fairly universal with the advent of UDF, but early CD-RW's did'nt use UDF and the format was different. CD-RW's are also used on other computers like Apple Macs, and a manufacturer will not pre-format his disk's for a specific OS, knowing that he will be marketing his disks for a broad range of computer types and OS's. It's like buying a box of floppies that have been formatted for Acorn systems, which you then have to blank and then re-format for PC's. It's easier to distribute the disks blank, and then allow the buyer to format to his own specification. This is doubly true with CD-RW's because the blanking and formatting process for each disk is quite long.
When a disk is rated for 650mb of data, then that is what you get. The 650 mb includes everything, Lead-in, lead-out, data in whatever format, and table of contents if applicable.
74 minutes of pure audio time in CD-DA format equates to 635mb of pure data. The rest of the data is allocated to lead in and lead out data which all CD's require. In order to get a full 74 minutes of Audio, then you have to record your CD as 'Disc-at-once'. This will then lay down a lead in to your first track, then record all subsequent tracks with no pause in between, and then a lead out which terminates the play process.
An Audio CD recorded as 'Disk at once' will play the the whole CD from start to finish without allowing the option of choosing different tracks in different orders. It's just like putting an LP on a turntable and pressing the start button.
If you record an Audio CD as 'Track at once', then it will record A lead in, each track with a two second gap in between, a table of contents, and a lead out. The TOC is a database of all tracks and their locations. It allows the CD player to give you the option of choosing different tracks to play and in different orders. The amount of pure audio time you can record in this mode, varies but it will be less than 74 minutes. The more tracks that you have then the longer the table of contents will be.
You cannot use Audio CD's recorded on CD-RW disks like mini-disks and play them on a hi-fi etc., because the majority of normal audio CD players require the disc to be closed. That means that the lead out data will prevent any further recording on the disc. You can do this if you play your recorded Audio on a Compatible multi-read cd-rom player because their software is designed to allow Audio CD playing on multi-session discs that hav'nt been closed. A sony walkman player, however, could not cope with it.
All the CD-RW discs that I have come accross, have all been the same colour on the recording side. A silvery, greyish blue. This is because there is only one technology that allows CD-RW discs to work the way that they do. All manufacturers use this same technology.
CD-R's are different where the early ones were basically Gold, and later technology has allowed Blue or Green dye on silver to enable a higher reflectivity.
I have never had a problem with recording audio onto a £15.00 CD-RW and then erasing it afterward for other uses. That only relates to the disc brands that I mentioned earlier. I can't account for other brands that I've never used.
well, MR_T25, pretty much I have already gave you the comments about all this. Laproaigh is pretty much repeating what I have already told you.
"74 minutes of pure audio time in CD-DA format equates to 635mb of pure data"
I said to you, that a disc can go around 630 megs around or a little more. an pretty much. all this matter is difference in opinion.
" Another thing to bear in mind is that if you format a CD-RW then it will only read from a UDF compatable CD Rom reader. "
I disagree in the answer, CD-RW are readable if formatted fully. there is no such thing like that. what about the new MP3 CD PLAYER? they use CD-RW and are readable in any machine. PHILLIPS is selling a machine to record music to CD. just like a tape deck.
kind of expensive, 600$. do you think they are going to sell something that just be readable in their own machine?. I do not think so.
"74 minutes of pure audio time in CD-DA format equates to 635mb of pure data"
I said to you, that a disc can go around 630 megs around or a little more. an pretty much. all this matter is difference in opinion.
" Another thing to bear in mind is that if you format a CD-RW then it will only read from a UDF compatable CD Rom reader. "
I disagree in the answer, CD-RW are readable if formatted fully. there is no such thing like that. what about the new MP3 CD PLAYER? they use CD-RW and are readable in any machine. PHILLIPS is selling a machine to record music to CD. just like a tape deck.
kind of expensive, 600$. do you think they are going to sell something that just be readable in their own machine?. I do not think so.
Istal
Forgive me if I have interpreted your comments incorrectly, but I would just like to reply to your previous comment.
I have tried to help mr_t25 to the best of my limited ability with suggestions based on my knowledge and experience, such that it is. I am not trying to compete for points here, as you obviously are. All I'm trying to do is learn a little bit from other peoples experience, and try and put some perspective into the original question which has been eroded by bickering and non-constructive comments thrown in by 'Point Collectors'.
I apologise if you feel that I have duplicated any of your previous comments, but it is purely co-incidental because I can only understand about 30% of the input that you have made in this thread anyway.
Laphroaig.
Forgive me if I have interpreted your comments incorrectly, but I would just like to reply to your previous comment.
I have tried to help mr_t25 to the best of my limited ability with suggestions based on my knowledge and experience, such that it is. I am not trying to compete for points here, as you obviously are. All I'm trying to do is learn a little bit from other peoples experience, and try and put some perspective into the original question which has been eroded by bickering and non-constructive comments thrown in by 'Point Collectors'.
I apologise if you feel that I have duplicated any of your previous comments, but it is purely co-incidental because I can only understand about 30% of the input that you have made in this thread anyway.
Laphroaig.
Laphroaig: Well done! While I initially disagreed with you in part, your re-post was well thought out and assembled and covered each and every point concisely. Yes, limited by personal experience, but nonetheless, very accurate and to the point. I agree with your 'Point Collectors' comments entirely. Some would rather post any answer, rather than do the digging, Q&A and necessary homework and then post the most helpful answer. Many of the experts here that have been here for a while share solutions behind the scenes and work on problems together. It makes for an enormous learning experience without having to worry about points. On a lighter note, we have one of the new phillips CD-RW's as well as a new HP 8010si with the new firmware. With the new Kodak CD's, gone are the limitations of old. If a lead in and out as well as a TOC is required, it is written "in addition" to the 650MB. You'll see it at the spring Comdex.
You will notice as I (and others here) have, all the techs here think they have the same version of Windows 95 or 98. If your version is not a Canadian or US version, "it's different". Anyway, well done!
Dennis
You will notice as I (and others here) have, all the techs here think they have the same version of Windows 95 or 98. If your version is not a Canadian or US version, "it's different". Anyway, well done!
Dennis
Dennis,
Thank-you!
It's good to have a friend out there,.
Laphroaig.
Thank-you!
It's good to have a friend out there,.
Laphroaig.
" I am not trying to compete for points here, as you obviously are. All I'm trying to do is learn a little bit from other peoples experience, and try and put some perspective into the original question which has been eroded by bickering and non-constructive comments thrown in by 'Point Collectors'. "
To begin, I do not care about the points, he has asked you to answered it and you did;points do not mean nothing. I do not agree with your answer at all. and I am not looking forward to post mine as an answer, I am trying to help MR_T25 to have more ideas about this matter and a better idea of CD-RW, I got sources and experience with this matter, I was a DJ and own a radio station(none of anybody business). but the point about like floppy disk and not being readable everywhere.it is ridicolous.the only thing you try to do is to defend yourself by saying you only understand 30% of it. Most people do not understand most of it since they do not have the experience with it. I can guarantee you I know more about Music, Sound, and related stuff that you can imagine.
In respect to Dennis backing you up, he is just a person who likes to flame me everywhere. Dennis should not talk about point collections when he is one chasing WIN98 forum and many others in order to have a reputation in here, and collecting points since he started. The only thing about it is that I can tell with the points he has accumulated that he has helped many people in here.which is good, his points show what he has done a lot of help since 8/10/97 accumulating 249068. but both of you should not try to flame others with stupid reasoning. when both of you know this place is to help only. The only stupid thing that people like both of you do is to discourage experts to come to help. maybe both of you found the way how to buy a BIGMAC with this F**** points. which are useless.Grow up!!!!. Both of you know exactly that this help, comes free and everybody do it in a voluntary way. everybody has a life out of here. and most experts do not need stupid EGOS from others to be shown in here and be reading stupid comments.
grow up! and think over what this place is all about and what it is the end of helping others, it is not just staying in one point of view and supporting it; it is about making more broad the point of view.Many things do not come from research or the books, experience is not written in books is learnt with time.If you are free of sins;throw the first stone.
To begin, I do not care about the points, he has asked you to answered it and you did;points do not mean nothing. I do not agree with your answer at all. and I am not looking forward to post mine as an answer, I am trying to help MR_T25 to have more ideas about this matter and a better idea of CD-RW, I got sources and experience with this matter, I was a DJ and own a radio station(none of anybody business). but the point about like floppy disk and not being readable everywhere.it is ridicolous.the only thing you try to do is to defend yourself by saying you only understand 30% of it. Most people do not understand most of it since they do not have the experience with it. I can guarantee you I know more about Music, Sound, and related stuff that you can imagine.
In respect to Dennis backing you up, he is just a person who likes to flame me everywhere. Dennis should not talk about point collections when he is one chasing WIN98 forum and many others in order to have a reputation in here, and collecting points since he started. The only thing about it is that I can tell with the points he has accumulated that he has helped many people in here.which is good, his points show what he has done a lot of help since 8/10/97 accumulating 249068. but both of you should not try to flame others with stupid reasoning. when both of you know this place is to help only. The only stupid thing that people like both of you do is to discourage experts to come to help. maybe both of you found the way how to buy a BIGMAC with this F**** points. which are useless.Grow up!!!!. Both of you know exactly that this help, comes free and everybody do it in a voluntary way. everybody has a life out of here. and most experts do not need stupid EGOS from others to be shown in here and be reading stupid comments.
grow up! and think over what this place is all about and what it is the end of helping others, it is not just staying in one point of view and supporting it; it is about making more broad the point of view.Many things do not come from research or the books, experience is not written in books is learnt with time.If you are free of sins;throw the first stone.
https://www.experts-exchange.com/Q.10111582 <<==== Dennis this is the way you try to collect points. you better do not talk about collecting when you are the main one.
https://www.experts-exchange.com/Q.10114228 <<===== another way to collect points, 3 attempts and locking the question. From Dennis.
Istal, I don't know why I bother with you at all. If you only quit being so bellicose and quit insulting people, then I might cut you some slack. You might also want to get a better grasp on the english language, as that is the 30% issue posted by Laphroaig, he (and most of us) only understand about 30% of what you say, and that's on a good day. You are arrogant and argumentative, and when someone calls you to task for being so, you become beligerent and insulting. Then you defend yourself by suggesting that others should humble themselves or "go to church". If you have a point of view, post it, but quit saying everyone is wrong except you, or insulting others as you do regularly. As far as points are concerned dear Istal, I've had E&E return more points to the people asking questions than you have earned in all the time you've been here!
ASKER
Thx again to everyone who replied on this thread.
I awarded the points on the basis of clarity and quaity of input. Someone has actually managed to confirm what others have said is not possible, and this was important to me.
Thx again, and lets have some peace and harmony back here!
I awarded the points on the basis of clarity and quaity of input. Someone has actually managed to confirm what others have said is not possible, and this was important to me.
Thx again, and lets have some peace and harmony back here!
ASKER
Hi Laphroaig and others
I just want to let you know that I tried your suggestion now, having bought more blank CD-RWs. However your method does NOT work.
I understand what you say about less reflective coating etc, but then you cannot buy a re-writable CD that is silver.
I have NOT formatted the CD-RW with DirectCD, but instead used Easy CD Creator to copy the original CD to the this one. It works ok in the CD ROM but not in my hi-fi or personal CD Player, and both are very new.
Please advise, becuase at the moment I feel that perhaps syzygy might have been correct.
Thx.
I just want to let you know that I tried your suggestion now, having bought more blank CD-RWs. However your method does NOT work.
I understand what you say about less reflective coating etc, but then you cannot buy a re-writable CD that is silver.
I have NOT formatted the CD-RW with DirectCD, but instead used Easy CD Creator to copy the original CD to the this one. It works ok in the CD ROM but not in my hi-fi or personal CD Player, and both are very new.
Please advise, becuase at the moment I feel that perhaps syzygy might have been correct.
Thx.
Direct CD come with a CD eraser utility to make the CD blank again.
Also note the CD-Rw will only read in CD-Rw drives, the disk has a lower reflectivity than an ordinary CD and will only work in special players. Definatly not in a normal CD-Player.