New IDE HDD 20 or 30+ MB and Windows 98

Have a computer that has been rebuilt through time by a family owned dealership.  It's a 233 Mhz machine which was Windows 95 then upgraded to Windows 98.  

Just had them add a new Hard Drive, an IBM large GB IDE (more than 20GB, unclear as to exact size).  They copied all my drive stuff to this new drive and advised that they couldn't leave the new IBM IDE HD as one partition because I didn't have a full Windows 98, but only a Win95 to Win98 upgrade, so they created more than one partition.

Does this make any sense, and can you tell me what should be done instead?  Additionally, they failed to reattach my other drives, including the A, B etc., so clearly I must return to get all these things fixed/resolved.

I did want to get background on this and request COMMENTS please so that I can award the most helpful participant easily with points when the help is assessed.

Thank you.  
___________

MORE INFORMATION and CHANGES IMPLEMENTED:I will be unable to get more than what follows until I return.  Here's everything else that has transpired and where things are now; hoping this will help.  I had them do other upgrades, but still problems.

Award Modular Bios v. 4.51PG copyright 1986-1999
W6BXA Intel 440BX Pentium III 500 Mhz (However, in Windows Device Manager, still shows Pentium II)

BIOS information on bottom says
5/7/99 i440BX - W977EF-2A69KW)DC-A7

At bootup, RAM count is 131,xxx (missed the rest, and in Windows Device Manager says 128MB).

Also in device manager it shows that ALL DRIVES, C - D - E  are all running in MS DOS Compatibility Mode.

The Virtual Memory says c: 723MB Free.



rjmehlhornAsked:
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dew_associatesConnect With a Mentor Commented:
RJ, I'll be blocking this question until this issue is fully resolved for you.
Den
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Edited text of question.
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dew_associatesCommented:
Hi RJ, Asta sent me an email telling me that you would be posting. Let's go through that now.
=====================================
<<Have a computer that has been rebuilt through time by a family owned dealership.>>

You need to make sure that the Bios has been upgraded, is YR2K compatible as well as Windows 98 compatible. Additionally, you'll also need to make sure that the bios will support hard drives above 8.4G.

<<Just had them add a new Hard Drive, an IBM large GB IDE (more than 20GB, unclear as to exact size).>>

If it's 27G or under it shouldn't be a problem for Win98. If it's 30+, then you will need the update from the Windows update site for larger drive sizes.

<<They copied all my drive stuff to this new drive and advised that they couldn't leave the new IBM IDE HD as one partition because I didn't have a full Windows 98, but only a Win95 to Win98 upgrade, so they created more than one partition.>>

In a word, bunk!

<<Goes this make any sense, and can you tell me what should be done instead?>>

No it doesn't, but see my notes above.

<<Additionally, they failed to reattach my other drives, including the A, B etc., so clearly I must return to get all these things fixed/resolved.>>

If they neglected these minor things, then its time to either say something to them or find another shop. As for the partitioning issue, as I noted above, bunk. Win98 will run just fine on a 50+G drive.
Dennis
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Asta CuCommented:
Hi, RJ and Dennis:  

Great, thanks for your input, Dennis.
I was really baffled by what he had been told and began to research, and I'll attach some of what I found, but none explains where they were coming from with their statements.  

Dennis has helped me through a lot of issues, and am glad he's here to help you out as well.  I'm baffled.

These were the links I had checked out first.

---------

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q175/6/29.asp?LNG=ENG&SA=ALLKB


Large IDE Hard Disk May Run In Compatibility Mode

----

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q243/4/50.asp?LNG=ENG&SA=ALLKB

ScanDisk Errors on IDE Hard Disks Larger Than 32 GB

----

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q69/9/12.ASP?LNG=ENG&SA=ALLKB

MS-DOS Partitioning Summary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information in this article applies to:

Microsoft MS-DOS operating system
Microsoft Windows 95
Microsoft Windows 98


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Asta CuCommented:
Where'd you go, RJ?  I realize you're not around your computer this weekend.  But, what about what has been proposed and what's your next action in this regard?

Listening,

A
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kind4meCommented:
Dew is correct but to be more spefic win 98 can only handle large drive capicity if it is formated to fat 32.  Right click on your icon (my compter) and tell us what it says please

as always
mr happy
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
I will be unable to get more than what follows until I return.  Here's everything else that has transpired and where things are now; hoping this will help.  I had them do other upgrades, but still problems.

Award Modular Bios v. 4.51PG copyright 1986-1999
W6BXA Intel 440BX Pentium III 500 Mhz (However, in Windows Device Manager, still shows Pentium II)

BIOS information on bottom says
5/7/99 i440BX - W977EF-2A69KW)DC-A7

At bootup, RAM count is 131,xxx (missed the rest, and in Windows Device Manager says 128MB).

Also in device manager it shows that ALL DRIVES, C - D - E  are all running in MS DOS Compatibility Mode.

The Virtual Memory says c: 723MB Free.

------------------

Thanks for the help so far; given the problems, and additional upgrades they made, this new information I hope helps.  Will check back when I return.

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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Discussed this briefly yesterday with Asta; and she gave me some other ideas as well but it looks like it's a bit tougher than I thought, so will increase points.
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Edited text of question.
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Asta CuCommented:
http://www.intel.com/procs/perf/PentiumIII_440BX/brief/index.htm

Am reading up on the MB you mentioned; here's some performance info.
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dew_associatesCommented:
Okay RJ, we'll wait on you. There's nothing in that Bios that prevents you from having a large hard drive, so I suspect they did something wrong. Try and find out the exact hard drive info. Make, Model and size.
Dennis
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Asta CuCommented:
This link was the general information we talked about on the Dos Compatibility Mode issue, btw.

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q151/9/11.asp?LNG=ENG&SA=PER

MS-DOS Compatibility Mode Problems with PCI-IDE Controllers

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Asta CuCommented:
and this one.... drat that submit button.

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q130/1/79.ASP


Troubleshooting MS-DOS Compatibility Mode on Hard Disks
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
This is getting to be more like a bad dream, as the more I dig, the worse it gets.  Hopefully there's a quick fix for all this.

Just to make sure I put the right order of events out there, in case it matters, I had them upgrade to the new Intel Motherboard mentioned and added an IBM 20GB Ide HDD, IBM DJNA-352030.  I wanted to save my Windows installation (move it to the new drive; which they did).  The old "C" drive was a 2.1GB WD, actt100h , slave.  They told me that this new 20GB hard drive had to be partitioned in two parts.  They said the new "C" drive would need to be 2GB and not more; so what they did is to make the new IBM drive  "C" = 2GB and the other part of this they made "E" = 18GB or so.  The old WD 2.1 drive, they kept the data on it and called it "D".  IS THIS WEIRD?

Within Windows 98; the Primary IDE CTRL has a yellow "!" and is code 10, resources were irq 14.   The only drive listed under drives is the NEC Floppy Disk, none of the two hard drives c,d,e are listed in device manager other than under performance as being in Dos compatibility mode.    

RE BIOS:  The Intel motherboard (W6BXA) and other info already mentioned earlier, has no documentation with it; so we'll be checking their web site on information on settings in the BIOS, since we find it different from all others.  We couldn't make the boot process a,c; they had it set at c,scsi,a.  So we chose c,cd-rom,a as the boot sequence.  The ACPI function disabled.  ROM ISA Bios information, reload global timer events shows primary ide 0 is disabled, and ide 1 as well as secondaries all shown as disabled.  Floppy disabled.  Wonder why?  PCI PNP is yes.  Auto Bios, Manual Setup, cpu speed 500 Mhz.

The IDE HDD Auto detection shows normal mode.  When I checked into the IDE HDD auto detection process, was unsure of what to do so quit out of there; but it just doesn't look as though any drives are detected/shown there.  However, when the system boots up, it does list the IBM 20 GB IDE HD and WD in the boot sequence.

Within Windows 98 MSINFO32 shows this:

Remembering that my new IBM drive they made C (2GB) and E (18GB) and D is the old WD 2.1 GB drive.  Msinfo32 shows C (FAT) E(FAT32) and D(FAT).  What's all so strange is that I recall the old drive being FAT32.  

HELP!  I'll be returning in about two weeks; so that if it's not an easy fix; will need to complete then.  Thank you for your help.
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Asta CuCommented:
One other thing you mentioned, which I thought was also odd is that at bootup, Intel Pentium III is written, but on MSINFO32 as well as Device Manager you noticed it was still Pentium II.

Sounds like a major reformat restart; what a fiasco.  I just don't understand why the C,E and D partitions, or what's the scoop on the BIOS settings, you had also mentioned that all IDE Primary Master PI0, slave and secondary as well PIO, and then all again as UDMA enabled.  Power on Hotkey Ctrl F1 and FDC enabled, otherwise, the list sounds complete from what we discussed.  Oh yeah, also you mentioned that in device manager for the IDE controller problem item that it stated you should get/load the right driver or updated driver (code 10), right?

Whew.
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dew_associatesCommented:
RJ, I've read everything you posted, and to echo Asta's comment, what a fiasco. Although there are a few ways to handle this problem, the best would be to save your data, straighten out those motherboard bios settings, repartition that drive, format and reload everything. What you have now is what nightmares are made of.

Here's my comments to your post.

<<I had them upgrade to the new Intel Motherboard mentioned and added an IBM 20GB Ide HDD, IBM DJNA-352030.  I wanted to save my Windows installation (move it to the new drive; which they did).>>

In theory, this is nice to offer, but unless you have intimate knowledge of Windows 98, this is a very bad practice as it sets you up for a crash, but let's go on.

<<The old "C" drive was a 2.1GB WD, actt100h , slave.  They told me that this new 20GB hard drive had to be partitioned in two parts.  They said the new "C" drive would need to be 2GB and not more; so what they did is to make the new IBM drive  "C" = 2GB and the other part of this they made "E" = 18GB or so.  The old WD 2.1 drive, they kept the data on it and called it "D".  IS THIS WEIRD?>>

It's not weird, its probably in line with the way your OS was installed, probably FAT16. They could have converted it to Fat32, then moved it with a program like Partition Magic etc.

<<Within Windows 98; the Primary IDE CTRL has a yellow "!" and is code 10, resources were irq 14.   The only drive listed under drives is the NEC Floppy Disk, none of the two hard drives c,d,e are listed in device manager other than under performance as being in Dos compatibility mode.>>

This indicates that they didn't clear out the data in the Win98 registry that contains the bios settings from your old motherboard. As I mentioned above, this is a bad practice.

<<RE BIOS:  The Intel motherboard (W6BXA) and other info already mentioned earlier, has no documentation with it; so we'll be checking their web site on information on settings in the BIOS, since we find it different from all others.>>

The BX motherboard data is readily available and very easy to work with, but you'll need to really do this right.

<<We couldn't make the boot process a,c; they had it set at c,scsi,a.  So we chose c,cd-rom,a as the boot sequence.>>

This is normal on the newer bios's.

<<The ACPI function disabled.  ROM ISA Bios information, reload global timer events shows primary ide 0 is disabled, and ide 1 as well as secondaries all shown as disabled.  Floppy disabled.  Wonder why?>>

Because the shop was unfamiliar with the bios settings of the newer bios's.


<<PCI PNP is yes.  Auto Bios, Manual Setup, cpu speed 500 Mhz.>>

These may be okay, but it really doesn't matter given the whole of the situation. I'm wondering why it runs at all.

<<The IDE HDD Auto detection shows normal mode.  When I checked into the IDE HDD auto detection process, was unsure of what to do so quit out of there; but it just doesn't look as though any drives are detected/shown there.  However, when the system boots up, it does list the IBM 20 GB IDE HD and WD in the boot sequence.>>

It should be set to auto!

Within Windows 98 MSINFO32 shows this:

Remembering that my new IBM drive they made C (2GB) and E (18GB) and D is the old WD 2.1 GB drive.  Msinfo32 shows C (FAT) E(FAT32) and D(FAT).  What's all so strange is that I recall the old drive being FAT32.

That confirms my comment above, that your old Win98 install was FAT16.

RJ, this thing needs to be setup correctly or it is going to run worse than an old 166.
Dennis
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Asta CuCommented:
Thanks, Dennis for your input.  RJ called and we discussed further last night; he's very impressed with all the information and your responsiveness.  You did bring up some additional points and for that, more questions.  
He wants to make sure we have all the stuff identified before we embark further on his return (or if my back gets better, perhaps I can begin):

-To back up all to the old WDC 850 drive;

-Modify the BIOS settings (once we understand their setup/settings).

-Obviously ensure all cables are connected (out of order, but key) since he still wants both floppy supports.

-Ensure the IDE detect is set to auto for all.

-Purchase new software, ie. Partition Magic? Never used.

-Since this is such a fiasco, would you recommend purchasing a FULL NEW WINDOWS 98 SE PRODUCT FOR A TOTALLY NEW REFORMAT / FAT 32 CONVERSION AND THEN NEW INSTALL RATHER THAN continuing in the win95 to 98 upgrade patchwork?

-Recall reading about various utilities and products to copy HD to HD, but that hasn't worked so far on their processes; so take back the thought of researching here based on someone's recommendation:  

www.hdcopy.com. There is a program to copy HD to HD. in 2 minutes.

-He'd like the entire new drive to be formatted as one logical drive, that it be C and the boot drive (one partition).

Drat, can't find my note with the other question.... will update later.  He's willing to pay more points to get a full understanding of this, especially on the process and steps.  Unlike yours truly, he wants to understand it before taking any extreme/risky actions.

Later and thanks again,

Asta for RJ

P.S. I'm not in the point-arena here whatsoever, expect no points; helping my bro where I can.  He can now see why I spend so much time at E-E and is one of many referrals who has seen the value of this forum first hand.
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dew_associatesCommented:
Asta, you're getting way ahead of yourself. Most of what needs to be done can be done very easily, however we need RJ to:

1. Post exactly what it is that he needs to better undersand, and;

2. Determine what needs to be saved data wise from the previous installation.

If he has the upgrade disk for Win98, we don't need to install 95 first, we can use that disk as long as a specific procedure is followed.
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Asta CuCommented:
Since he's out of town for the next two weeks, and I do expect that we'll chat briefly, am trying to work this with him / for him through you.  Make sense?  The bottom line for him is he wants to back up all his data files, and realizes that he wants to stop the madness and get a clean start.

Think I've posted everything he wants to know for him, and will add a couple of his notes here from Email (He's been having trouble as you can imagine, doing any cookie-related log ins among other things, limping along with this partial setup).  

From RJ:  "Judging from our telephone conversation and e-mails from Dennis on Experts Exchange, it seems that our final conclusion was correct. I need to start with a clean, newly formatted C drive. There is no option about the OS -- it has to be Windows 98. I saw in my latest Microsoft news that they are coming out with Windows 2000 on February 17, so it may be best to wait until then.... Anyway, I can move my existing programs and data files to the current D drive and, hopefully, re-format the C-drive, deal with the BIOS issues and reconstruct my C drive as a properly configured 20 GB HD. Both HD's should be set up for FAT32.
    To be continued upon our return to the mainland; unless you're feeling better and can help field this or get the process started."

__________

That's it from him.

Asta
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dew_associatesCommented:
Asta, the only thing I can add before his return is to make sure that he has the manual for that motherboard so we can set it up correctly before doing anything else. Windows 2000 is still pending many drivers, so I'd tell him to hold off on that thought.
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Asta CuCommented:
Sounds good, Dennis.  I'll collect your information and anything new that comes up in my special folder and share it with him when he calls in @ one week.  If possible, I'll get the missing MB manual either from the OEM/System Builder involved with the upgrade or online via PDF.

Asta for RJ
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
I appreciate the help and expertise offered.  Need a couple of days to assess.  Not pleased with the reality, but pleased with the support.

Asta has provided me Email notifications and responses for which I'm also grateful but at this juncture not decided.

Thank you, Dennis, for all your valuable information.  That helps me tremendously in making the final determination as to what is done.  Asta's back is such that I don't want to ask her to take these remedial actions; although she would.

Will get back soon.

Thanks for your feedback and input.

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dew_associatesCommented:
Okay, we'll wait on you!
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Adjusted points to 250
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Too many deadlines; sorry for the delay in updating all.  Increasing points.

Will investigate new MB this week, but don't trust backing data onto existing system with all these problems.

Need to parallel port-attach that system to my Notebook computer to move everything there in case of worst case scenario.  Is there a quick and simple way to do this within Windows 98?  What does this take?
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dew_associatesCommented:
The best and safest way would be to pickup a copy of Laplink with the cable that comes with it. It will run in DOS or in Windows and allow you to transfer data even if there's a crash and all you have left is a dos boot!
Dennis
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Asta CuCommented:
Good morning.

I had sent links to Rolf which had free trial versions of two possibilities,

Laplink and Norton's PcAnywhere.

Also wondered about the Direct Cable Connection option.

Bad back continues.

Asta

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dew_associatesCommented:
Sorry to here about the back continuing Asta!

In situations where there may be a question abou the OS, I'd use Laplink as it can be booted from a floppy if necessary.
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Asta CuCommented:
Thanks, Dennis; it has been a really bad few weeks with this back of mine.  That plus some personality conflicts at E-E have kept me offline quite a bit as you noticed, I'm sure.  Appreciate your hanging in here.  

Will be talking with Rolf about all this today; and checking into Laplink, based on your comments (although downloading the freebie isn't an option, since we need a special cable, no?).  Hoped to be able to do something this week to get this all done with Rolf.

Asta
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dew_associatesCommented:
Actually it would be easiest to just get the entire laplink kit as it comes with the correct cable.

As for the personality conflicts, while I know its easier said than done, try and ignore it the best you can. From experience here with my own tech people, I see this everyday but fortunately these people are face to face and can sit down and break bread with each other afterwards and there's no continuing problem.

Lastly, as to Rolf, if he wishes, we can provide him with component combinations that I think will please him, but that's up to you two.
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Asta CuCommented:
Rolf asked me an interesting question this morning and one I've never used, so will post for him (until he can get back on line). Why doesn't the Briefcase work to move files between his laptop and computer via parallel port attachment?  I thought that was also a possibility, but nothing tried so far works; files say they were transferred but nothing ever shows up.  He followed the online help within Windows 98 exactly, but without any results.

Perhaps it's the same issue as the DCC process, that the bios has to have the LPT1 setting at other than SP and that a special cable versus normal parallel port attach cable is needed.  Or because the whole MB, and setup is incomplete and doing most anything is a hit-miss situation at this point.

As regards LapLink, the kit for version 9 looks to be about $150 from LapLink direct.  Seems a bit high for a one-time event.

Asta for Rolf

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dew_associatesCommented:
If he can establish a direct cable connection, then it may be just briefcase wasn't setup properly. In any event there is another program out their that is free called SynchronX

www.clickteam.com/web/synchronx
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Asta CuCommented:
Forwarded all updates to Rolf via Email today.  He wants to make Briefcase work, but have yet to find anyone who has used it successfully to find out what's wrong here.

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dew_associatesCommented:
I've done it Asta, but frankly I stopped using it as I don't have time to sit and play and then verify that it did as it was told.
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Asta CuCommented:
Thanks, Dennis.  Enough on this, I'll leave you alone to deal with your own issues.  Rolf is asking his coworkers, etc. since many use it all the time (where he got the recommendation).  He confirmed that he does not want to spent $150-$170 for a one-time event.  I wouldn't either.

You've locked this Q, and I assume it's because we're straying from the original thread and don't want to get the issues confused with more input.  Perhaps I'll recommend to Rolf that he post one more Q (if he has enough points) to ask others about the Briefcase option - assuming he doesn't find what he needs to execute all this Friday morning, which is his plan.  


Asta for Rolf
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dew_associatesCommented:
There's already an issue open regarding Briefcase in detail. Check it out!
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Adjusted points to 300
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
From bad news to worse news.  As Asta may have mentioned, Device Manager in SAFE MODE had impossible things, many keyboards, monitors, drives, modems, sound cards, controllers, CDROMS, etc.  We removed all erroenous devices in device manager, but dual fifo primary and secondary would not let us remove them.  Then we also removed old Windows 95 Norton software.

At reboot, could no longer load Windows, now said Setup missing or something like that.

We booted with EBD and CD-Rom(DVD) support and are now using Xcopy to move critical files.  And guess we'll try installing from DOS, since we don't seem to have any choices.

Any ideas or recommendations to make this less painful or time consuming?  Do you know if using Xcopy c: d: /s will copy everything, including hidden files in Windows as well?

Since my system is dead, am using my sister's computer to update you and research further.
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dew_associatesCommented:
Rolf, use xcopy c: d: /H /S /E

It's a shame you got hosed like that. If I can help, let me know, Asta has my email address.
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Asta CuCommented:
Thanks, Dennis.  Just returned from Rolf's and all is well.

There are a number of WindowsUpdates to be run, but we:

Xcopied all to extra drive
Modified the BIOS settings
Used EBD w/CDROM support
Copied Win98 setup to HD
Ran Setup from HD
All the other normal stuff

YIPEE.  Thanks for your help.  Rolf is right here as we speak, about to say his piece.

Asta
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Thank you for your responsiveness and excellent help.  No wonder Asta spends as much time at Experts-Exchange.com as she does.

We did the xcopy c: d: /s and then checked attributes which did list hidden files, maybe we lucked out.

The final result is all is perfect!  We did the copying, reformatting, installing, converting to Fat32, fixing more anomolies in safe mode and now very happy with the results.  It has been very interesting.  

Rolf
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dew_associatesCommented:
Glad you have things as you want them!
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Asta CuCommented:
Thanks for your ongoing support, Dennis, not just for Rolf but for our whole 'computer family'.  You hang in there and make it clear you care.  YOU DESERVE VERY 'A' GRADE, NOT JUST THIS ONE!

Back to fixing my 'patchwork system'.

Then, tomorrow, back to Rolf's system to get IE fixed, and many other updates from (snooze-snore, Winup).

Happy Sunday, Saturday was a tough one for all.


: o )

Asta
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Asta CuCommented:
Long week, as I'm sure you know, I meant...

YOU DESERVE EVERY 'A' GRADE YOU GET, NOT JUST THIS ONE.

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dew_associatesCommented:
Thanks Asta, it's because of the company I keep <wink>
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Asta CuCommented:
;>)
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Will be upgrading to Windows 2000 Professional soon and with that plan to totally reformat and start with New Windows and reinstalls.  Asta has convinced me that too much old stuff exists (as in her systems) that just takes to long to manually remove from the registry.

Thank you both for your help and I'll be logging off and continuing the WindowsUpdate downloads for the next few hours.  As you've said, Asta, you'll be spending much less time on line for a while, so hopefully we'll completely rebuild all our systems (.>).

 
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dew_associatesCommented:
Rolf, you think you have problems now? Wait til you load Win2K!
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Why do you say this?  There are two computers, for one ordering full version, the other an upgrade.  They were to have shipped 2/17/00, but are backordered and may not ship until late Feb or mid March.  Asta had pointed out some driver considerations, but we both thought surely these would be resolved when Windows 2000 goes to market.
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dew_associatesCommented:
We've been working with each of the release candidates RC1, RC2, RC3 and Release to Manufacturing for our own production machines, and there are a number of kinks to be worked out. While most (and I said most, not all) hardware issues have been resolved, any legacy equipment at all will be a problem. Most, if not all, games will not work on Win2K and neither will mst applications formerly designed for Win98 with only a handful of exceptions. Most of the needed patches from software vendors are not even close to release.
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rjmehlhornAuthor Commented:
Well, I'll discuss with Asta and we'll likely leave in the box until we can feel comfortable that needed support is there.  I appreciate your help, Dennis.

Rolf
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dew_associatesCommented:
Not a problem!
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