Page margins in NS

My url:
http://ozgoth.tripod.com/

Problem:
In IE the page works fine, moslty because I do most of my designing on an IE5 machine.
In Netscape, which adds a margin to the page, the left-hand navigation frame gets a scroll bar added to the bottom because it is some 2 or so pixels too wide.
I have used marginheight=0 and marginwidth=0 in the body tag in this frame, which helped to some degree, but I still have those 2 pixels or so of padding which I don't want, because of the design of the navigation bar -- the black is supposed to (with the aid of some images) fade into the red. This effect is lost if the user has to scroll across a pixel or two in order to see the slight fade-in.
I don't want to be putting a scrolling=0 into the frameset page, because then in low-res situation you won't be able to access some of the menu bar. The site is currently designed primarily for 800x600. It should work in higher resolutions ok though, but I want it to remain compatible to one degree or another with low res as well.

How can I remove this padding that Netscape is adding to my page?

At present all I have tested in is IE5 and NN4. If you get strange results using other versions/browsers/platforms/etc, please describe.

Thankyou.
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SubhumanAsked:
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robbertCommented:
Why don't you try;

<body marginheight="-2"> ?
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vlad_impalaCommented:
Just a thought..
On your frameset tag have you tried specifying framespacing="0"?
e.g. <frameset rows="120,*" border="0" framespacing="0" frameborder="no">

Vlad.
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
robbert: does this work? I'll have to give it a try. I'd always assumed 0 was at least *supposed* to mean 0, so I never considered negative numbers.

vlad_impala: no, I'll have to do that.

Thankyou both, I'll try both of these shortly. (After I've sifted through my inbox of other postings - hehe).
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
nggAaaargh!
Neither of these has made so much as an iota of difference.
I'm working on something of my own, I'll get back.
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
Ok, I'm back.
Like I said, neither of these suggestions has done much. marginheight=-2 and marginwidth=-2 did exectly the same as what a value of 0 did.
I put framespacing=0 into my framesets and nothing happened. Just to be sure I tried putting it into the <frame> tags but -- nothing.
Then I tried modifying the tables in the page.
The frame is 196 px wide.
I managed to get rid of the horizontal scrollbar by reducing table to 191 px wide, but I'd have to resize the background image to fit otherwise I'd lose the fade-in effect which is what this whole thread is about. Also, it wouldn't work in IE then, either.
Another problem is that when I *had* managed to get rid of the horizontal scrollbar, NS was still leaving space for it at the bottom, so there was a strip of black exactly 1 scrollbar wide at the bottom, despite the table height=100%.
So I have given up on resizing the table --either way one browser wins out and the IE solution is less code and more people use it anyway.

If there are any Netscape experts out there, can you *please* tell me if it's possible to get rid of this damn padding around the frame, and if so, how!

Thankyou robbert and vlad for your help so far :P
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robbertCommented:
As always, when there is no solution at first glance; put your pages online (and if there are server-side scripts, post them here), so that we can see what's reality.
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
http://ozgoth.tripod.com/ is the url of the frameset (file name index.htm)
nav.htm in top level directory is the page I'm having trouble with -- it's in the left side frame of the frameset.
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robbertCommented:
<td colspan=2 width=196 height=20 valign="middle"><img src="images/navtop.jpg" width=196 height=20></td>

Isn't your problem valign=top?
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garrethgCommented:
<BEINGHELPFUL>
Netscape, the buffer king, has a problem with:
<IMG height=20 src="nav_files/navtop.jpg" width=196>
The scroll bar wouldn't go away until I set the width to 193. That's all I changed. Sadly that's a bit like sawing the ends of legs on a wobbly table, but it looked OK. Maybe if you cut the descender part of the image down a bit?.
</BEINGHELPFUL>

<NOTBEINGHELPFUL>
Austrialian Goth. I just can't picture it :)
"G'day Bruce, bonza' day. Comming down the auld barbie to look pale and interesting?"
"Ah right on Bruce, I'll bring me new 'Sisters of Mercy' album"
"Fair dinkum Bruce"
</NOTBEINGHELPFUL>
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
<chuckles morbidly>

Robbert: what do you mean?
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hatecaplettersCommented:
subhuman >>> just a thought, have you tried with <table hspace="0" vspace="0"..... etc > ?

it should give you at lesst those 2 pixels you are looking for in netscape, but I haven't had time to try it out myself

take care

hatecapletters
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
What exactly are hspace and vspace supposed to do? I've never heard of them. I'll give them a try. :->
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hatecaplettersCommented:
hspace and vspace sets the amount of free space around the object. they are especially useful when you want two tables next to each other without any space between them.
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hatecaplettersCommented:
hspace and vspace sets the amount of free space around the object. they are especially useful when you want two tables next to each other without any space between them.
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
Ok, thanks for that. If netscape will support it, it's exactly what I'm looking for.
I'll probably test it tomorrow or Friday.
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
Of course, it's nearly 8:30 here in Australia... :->
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
Ok, I tested it now. hspace and vspace haven't done a damn thing, at least not in NS.
Damn page margins...
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Eric AKA NetminderCommented:
Hate to be the bearer of bad news... but since no one's willing to say it definitely...

The two browsers (IE and NS) handle frames (and tables) differently. NS is, as garrethg noted, a buffer hog. We had a b-tch of a time getting the frames right on our website (http://www.questsys.com, and click on Resources/TechStream to see why). The only solution was to either cut the legs of one chair, or add longer legs to the other one. We essentially met in the middle and did both.

Just for your future reference, IE is more precise in its handling of frame sizes. When you say 131 pixels, it sets the frame at 131. With NS, it could be as much as 135-137...
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
Thanks for coming out and saying it.
I'll just have to put up with netscape.
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Eric AKA NetminderCommented:
Doncha just hate it when that happens? *grin*
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
Yeh... lol.
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robbertCommented:
NN was the first GOOD browser.

M$ IE will be the last, possibly.

Be aware.

"LOL" :-(
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SubhumanAuthor Commented:
*agrees*
Was originaly a netscaper until nn4, now i'm ie.
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