Hierarchical naming on flat structure???

Hi folks,

I am a Notes developer rather than Notes administrator so my skills fall short in this area.

The company I am currently working for have an obscure problem with one of the servers.  It seems that even though we are using a flat naming structure in the company, at somepoint someone somewhere has screwed something.  One of the servers has a hierarchy to it.

e.g.  should be CSLLN1001, is CSLLN1001/Project/ProjectName.

The Project shows as an Organisational Unit and the ProjectName shows as an Organisation.

It also doesn't seem to matter what we use after the "/" of the CSLLN1001, we can still locate all databases on the server.

e.g. File...Open....CSLLN1001/IHateNotes still opens the server.

I have been told it doesn't happen in V3
 and may not happen in V5 though I've still to check this.

Can anyone help in anyway whatsoever???

Notes 4.5.x for clients, 4.6.x for servers, win nt on server, win95 on clients

Thanks in advance,

Scott.

ScottHamilton28@hotmail.com
AOL IM: SHamilton99
Scott2000Asked:
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rfharrisCommented:
Forgive me for asking this way ... but what problem are you trying to solve?  

That users are authenticating with the server *at all* implies that the admin for that server added your flat certifier to the server's id.

When user's authenticate with this server the only certificate in common is the flat.  Thus, name comparisons will only use the Common Name ([CN]) portion of server's hierarchical name.  (That is why it doesn't matter what you enter beyond the CN.  The authentication process won't use it as the call initiator is flat.)

Is it against policy that users *should* be successful in accessing this server because it is dedicated to a project?  If so, then use the server document to define and control restrictions to this server.

So ... what is the goal?
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Scott2000Author Commented:
Hi,

Thanks for the reply:

The problem is that we should not have any references to the "Project/Kwik Save" and don't know why the hell it's appearing.

The servers name is CSLLN1001 and that is it!!!!

No Organisation, no ou's nothing, just CSLLN1001

When user's open databases using File...Open, they see CSLLN1001 and CSLLN1001/Project/Kwik Save (and any other text they want to put in after the "/".

If they decide to open "CSLLN1001/I HATE NOTES", they can and the database once on their desktop is appearing as Server: CSLLN1001/I HATE NOTES.

When they send a database, view or document link to the database, the other person will put the database onto their desktop as "CSLLN1001/I HATE NOTES".

Any ideas????
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Scott2000Author Commented:
Hi,

Thanks for the reply:

The problem is that we should not have any references to the "Project/Kwik Save" and don't know why the hell it's appearing.

The servers name is CSLLN1001 and that is it!!!!

No Organisation, no ou's nothing, just CSLLN1001

When user's open databases using File...Open, they see CSLLN1001 and CSLLN1001/Project/Kwik Save (and any other text they want to put in after the "/".

If they decide to open "CSLLN1001/I HATE NOTES", they can and the database once on their desktop is appearing as Server: CSLLN1001/I HATE NOTES.

When they send a database, view or document link to the database, the other person will put the database onto their desktop as "CSLLN1001/I HATE NOTES".

Any ideas????
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HemanthaKumarCommented:
Hi Scott

Try to recertify the server ID

~Hemanth
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Scott2000Author Commented:
Adjusted points to 110
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Scott2000Author Commented:
Hi HemanthaKumar,

That could be a possibility, but I really need to know the cause before I go off trying to change anything, specially since I'm not even the administrator.

Can you suggest the cause of it and what is happening?

Cheers.
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HemanthaKumarCommented:
Hi Scott


Check this TechNote, You will get a better idea of what is happening behind the scenes...

http://support.lotus.com/sims2.nsf/c7835bf039c01dc285256688006fae9b/dbe3bbe14adcf507852564ab0083be9d?OpenDocument


~Hemanth
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rfharrisCommented:
Scott -

If indeed the CSLLN1001 is certified using a hierarchical certifier then I also would recommend recreating as flat.

Eventually (soon?) your entire company will want to move from flat to a proper and *planned* hierarchical structure.  This is not a task to be taken lightly and should be coordinated from the top-level admins and moved downward throughout the corporation and domain.  Certainly a single Organizational level certifier would want to be created reflecting the company (not a project) and lower OU certifiers built using an agreed-upon pattern.  Common thoughts for OUs are typically based on geography (perhaps country, region or city) or function (mktg, sales, engineering, etc).  It may be appropriate within your domain to use the project name as an OU -- but probably not as an ORG.

So ... if indeed CSLLN1001 has been created as a heirarchical certifier using /Project/ProjectName then it begs to be recertified based singly on the fact that it does not meet company policy for server naming conventions.

---Moving the thoughts from 'theoretical' to more 'practical'---

1.  Verify that CSLLN1001 is indeed hierarchical.
There is some doubt in my mind, based on the discussions above, that we have proven that CSLLN1001 is indeed hierarchical.  If a doclink or desktop icon can remember 'CSLLN1001/IHATENOTES' then it could just as easily remember 'CSLLN1001/Project/ProjectName.'  What are the chances that the project based name is being accidentally 'spoofed' in the same was as the sarcastic name?

2.  If CSLLN1001 proves to be hierarchical - then check to see if it communicates with any other entity (user or server) based on that hierarical certificate.  Was it certified this way for a specific reason (such as to hold a cross-certificate with an external organization also working on the same project???).  

If there was a specific reason for the certification - then you may have to live with the side-effect symptom you have noted.  However, the inappropriate comments being added to the server's name becomes a problem at a different, non-technical, level (more of a personnel maturity question??).

If there is no external connectivity requiring the hierarchical certifier, then by all means, re-create a server ID of the same name using the flat certifier.  (I don't think that the recert process will allow you to backrev from an existing hierarchical to flat.)  After recreating the new server ID your admin team will have to do a bit of clean-up in the server view of the public address book to transfer the misc. settings of the original server document to the new server document.  Remove the old server document.  Make sure the resulting updated address book is replicated to  CSLLN1001.  Bring down CSLLN1001 and swap out the old ID file in favor of the new ID file.  Edit the server's Notes.INI if the ID file names are not equal.  Bring up the 'new' CSLLN1001.  It should behave in similar fashion as the other flat servers in the domain.

How to deal with all the references floating about pointing to the 'CSLLN1001/IHATENOTES'? I'm guessing either 'let them be' to die off on their own or instruct everyone to manually remove the inappropriate database icons from their desktops and then open the database fresh from the newly certified server.

3. [This is the 'ELSE' portion of the test in #1] If CSLLN1001 proves to already be flat .. then there may be nothing you can do but address the immature behavior problem??

Hope this gives you sufficient material to talk with your admin staff on this.

-- Rhonda
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rfharrisCommented:
Just checking in -- how is the progress going on this?
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Scott2000Author Commented:
Hi Rhonda,

Thanks for the info.

I'm still checking into it, though I keep getting other requests to complete, so I do not quite have the time as I did before.

We received information from global IT in our company and according to them, it's a problem with Notes 4 in general and not to do with our organisation.

According to them, we are using a flat structure, and when users try to access databases on a server using "/" after the server name, Notes picks up on the fact that we have put in a hierarchical reference (domain/o/ou etc) and just allows it....

I find it strange though that I've never seen this before anywhere else, though admittedly, the majority of companies I worked for used hierarchical already.

I still need to check things with Lotus support just to make sure things are as they say.

I'll let you know how I go.

Cheers Rhonda,

Scott.
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rfharrisCommented:
Hi, Scott -

Thanks for the update...and continued best wishes as you verify your symptom with Lotus!
-- R
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rfharrisCommented:
I found a related reference on Lotus' support site:
http://support.lotus.com/sims2.nsf/802ee480bdd32d0b852566fa005acf8d/406bb91db5bf77588525664700599fed?OpenDocument

Although the support document addresses a different method *into* the symptom -- the end result matches the description of your site's recent experience (the user's desktop icons remember false hierarchical server names).  This document may help you confirm the legitimacy of the problem.  It also suggests two workarounds -- but they will only be temporary workarounds if a user or admin chooses to recreate the problem.

-- Rhonda
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Scott2000Author Commented:
Hi Rhonda,

Ok, CSLLN1001 is definitely flat and there are no references on the server to "Kwik Save" or any of the other names appearing on user's desktops.

I have checked out versions 4.6.2 and 5.0 Gold from the technote above and they have the same issues.

As soon as a user uses a "/" in the File Open Database and open a database from the server, the servername + everything after the "/" is put onto the icon.

Thanks again!!!

Scott
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rfharrisCommented:
Well ... it sounds like this is a valid Notes problem between flat clients and flat servers.  There is not likely any permanent "fix" you can influence while remaining on the current flat certifier.

So, it looks like there are at least these three choices: (a) live with what you have; (b) set "policies" against the practice of creating false hierarchical names and fight the battle through user education; and (c) begin to take a good look at upgrading from flat to hierarchical certificates for both servers and users.

If your Notes domain is intended to continue into the next couple of years (and I hope it is!) then your company will be well served by making the move to a hierarchical cert.  The advantages are numerous ... and I have only time to list a few:

* AdminP, which will aid system administration tremendously, requires a hierarchical environment (see http://support.lotus.com/sims2.nsf/802ee480bdd32d0b852566fa005acf8d/ad342e25524d52b4852564c60061c274?OpenDocument and http://support.lotus.com/sims2.nsf/802ee480bdd32d0b852566fa005acf8d/40c06bb5e812463a802563f300628f64?OpenDocument )

* Hierarchical IDs simplify the support of multiple people with similar names.  With flat certs there are not too many variations for names such as "Ron Jones" short of forcing a middle initial or nickname.  With hierarchical certs the address book can easily distinguish between Ron Jones/Mktg/ACME, Ron Jones/Acct/ACME, or perhaps Ron Jones/East/ACME and Ron Jones/West/ACME.

* Creating and maintaing cross certificates (used only by hierarchical certs) is far, far easier than exchanging flat certs.

* R5 will require a hierarchical environment.

* The move from Flat to Hierarchical can be planned in stages with solid coexistence as a reachable goal during the process. (See http://support.lotus.com/sims2.nsf/802ee480bdd32d0b852566fa005acf8d/7c317acdba34c8b7852564df004342b4?OpenDocument )

So .. I think this brings my input as far as I can offer on the original problem.  I am afraid there is no direct, simple solution for the symptom you have described.

Recommending a move from flat to hierarchical is a big step - but a step in the right direction for continued long-term growth and success of Notes in the workplace.

Best wishes -
  Rhonda

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Scott2000Author Commented:
Hi Rhonda,

Thanks again.

The company is moving to Notes 5 in August (supposedly...), so I guess the hierarchical naming will come into effect from then.  It would take too much planning to do it before then.

It's more of an annoyance at the moment rather than a real concern since it is only affecting a local server.

Obviously if people knew they could do it, some would become a lot more immature and have references flying about the company that would cause some eyebrows to be raised...you know what some of us guys can be like....

Since I'm only here temporarily, I do not have any wish to get into this problem too deeply, simply trying to find a quick fix which is not exactly forthcoming.

I will go back to my original idea of trying to create a program to remove references to infected servers from people's desktops, which is just as impossible, but what the hell.

For the help you've given, you can have the points....

Thanks,

Scott.
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