BDC disappears

I have just installed a NT 4.0 server as a BDC in my domain.  I am now having problems with it disappearing from the domain...heres what I mean.  This problem has went through several stages and are as follows:

When I boot the BDC -- it comes up and I get a Netlogon error that says it can't authenticate to the PDC(the PDC is running SBS - installed before I got here!!). (they are in same network segement in two different rooms -- I can ping each by name or IP from the other)  I originally thought it was bad NIC drivers -- I reinstalled them to no avail ..(although here I must say -- everything seems to work  -- I can browse the NN and go out to the internet)

From there I assumed the SID was messed up on the machine account on the PDC so I powered down the BDC and deleted it's account from the PDC/domain.  Then went in as Administrator and added an account for it to the domain (with same name as before)  I then booted the BDC.  It came up and I still have problems among them are:


1. Using ServerMGR I double-click on the BDC and it says "network path not found" -- then I go to DOS Prompt and use the command:  Net Accounts /sync and then I can go back to ServerMGR and double-click on it and it opens.  Sometime after that though (I guess after the next refresh -- it gets "network path not found again".

2. In Event Viewer on BDC I get messege that says -- "browser unable to retrieve a list of servers from the master browser"

3. Can't double-click on the BDC from anything other than the PDC (after the net account /sync command) -- from any workstation when you DC it -- you get "network path not found"

4. When the BDC boots I get messege in event viewer that says:  "The server was unable to register the administration tool discovery information."

5. I've checked all IP addresses, etc.

klworleyAsked:
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mrorangeConnect With a Mentor Commented:
Moicrosoft says that if you are installing a BDC you cannot configure the BDC then add a nic and then join the network...

You must have all of the hardware installed and have the BDC connected to the network prior to installation.

This may have been the case when you installed the BDC but with the changes that you have made to the SID and NIC it may be a quicker alternative to cut your losses and format the BDC, and do a re-installation.  Shouldn't take longer than an hour...

Also you didn't state what type of kit you where running..

Ensure that you have all of the correct hardware drivers when you install.

if you can connect first time then it may be a line problem.  I would then start to look at your cabling.

Regards...
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mrorangeCommented:
Did you install your BDC while it was connected to the network, then supply a PDC admin username and password, or did you install your BDC then try to connect it to the network?

A BDC has be be physically connected to the network for you to install it as a BDC...

Hope this helps
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
It was connected to the network.  When I gave it the admin id and password -- it gave me the Welcome to the Domain messege.
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netmageCommented:
>(with same name as before)  

The PDC has information associated to SID for that machine already and won't accept the new setup.

There are option pack tools to fix this. I'm nowhere near an NT machine right now but if nobody posts this info soon i'll look it up.

The alternative is to rebuild the BDC to a new name.

 
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I have tried the two workarounds provided by M$oft -- Q173882 Netlogon Sync Errors and -- Q172302 Domain Sync fails with 5716

Both to no avail.  Same results, can see BDC in NN but only occasionally can it be opened (other times - Network path not found)

Also still get occasional Errors in the EViewer -- like '...replication failed no RPC server available'

Still can sync them with Net Accounts /Sync and see in for a while.


PLEASE -- any ideas??????????????

KW
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I have tried the two workarounds provided by M$oft -- Q173882 Netlogon Sync Errors and -- Q172302 Domain Sync fails with 5716

Both to no avail.  Same results, can see BDC in NN but only occasionally can it be opened (other times - Network path not found)

Also still get occasional Errors in the EViewer -- like '...replication failed no RPC server available'

Still can sync them with Net Accounts /Sync and see in for a while.


PLEASE -- any ideas??????????????

KW
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ABCStoreCommented:
Here's the list of what you need to check:

NIC drivers
cable
port on hub
NIC itself (most likely)

it doesn't look like a configuration problem
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DavidHalperinCommented:
If you played around with the names and the account info on the PDC, I suggest that you do the following.  Erase the BDC account for the domain.  After that run "Ghostwalker" on the BDC to change the SID.  After that, ass the BDC back to the domain.  Doesn't kmatter that you renamed the computer with the same name,  NT recognizes ever computer by two things.  A unique NETBIOS name and a unique SID.  If there is a problem with the original account, renaming the computer won't help as it still can be recognized by the SID, GHOSTWALKER will fix this.  But be for warned that if there is some more serious problem,  this won't help and you should reinstall the BDC.  It's worth a try if you want to reinstall it anyway.  
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LermitteCommented:
Use the Netdom.exe resource kit tool to recreate the domain trust for these two DC's.

Mario
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ABCStoreCommented:
Can't you read, guys??????

"can see BDC in NN but only occasionally can it be opened"

domains, trusts, SIDs... what's next? monitor or keyboard? =(
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Tim HolmanCommented:
Sounds like a network problem.
How many NICs in this machine ?
Are bindings correct ?
What protocols are installed ?
Things don't just disappear from the domain due to configuration problems !
What sort of hub/switch do you use ?
Have you tried disabling STP on the switch ?
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
Here's several responses -- I ASSUME its not the NIC or drivers -- cause I NEVER have any problems doing
anything FROM the BDC - I can see anything and do anything FROM it.

I have changed ports on the hub, This is the same hub I've been using for everything else (my own machine is hooked into and I never have problems with it)

I have changed cables.  

The bindings are correct, only TCP is installed.

Any other suggestions????  Or do I need to just delete this one and go ahead and do a re-install???????????????????????????????????????


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Tim HolmanCommented:
Have you tried it in a different (known working) hub port ?
Is the same level of service pack applied throughout ?
Machines just don't come and go from the network all by themselves - I'm convinced it's a NIC / hub problem !

Again - how many network cards ?

Are all bindings correct ?

Does IPCONFIG /ALL show correct entries ?
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DavidHalperinCommented:
Now that you mentioned hubs, I think I may have it.  One time I put the link cable ( between hubs or from the hub to the wall) In this case it was an 8 port hub.  Port 8 was the link.  I connected all the computers on the hub and port 1 to the wall to connect them to the network.  I could see 10 out of 100 computers on our network.  Like you when I pinged it, i got a reponse from some computers.  When I switched it to port 8( the link port) it immediatley started to work fine and haven't had a problem since.

Maybe that was the problem with you too.
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
Here's several responses -- I ASSUME its not the NIC or drivers -- cause I NEVER have any problems doing
anything FROM the BDC - I can see anything and do anything FROM it.

I have changed ports on the hub, This is the same hub I've been using for everything else (my own machine is hooked into and I never have problems with it)

I have changed cables.  

The bindings are correct, only TCP is installed.

Any other suggestions????  Or do I need to just delete this one and go ahead and do a re-install???????????????????????????????????????


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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I have tried it in a different/working hub port -- same results.

There is only one NIC in both the PDC and the BDC.

Nope -- its not the link port.  This hub has it clearly marked and its in there and hub is working fine.

The bindings are correct.

IPCONFIG /ALL shows everything correct.
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I have tried it in a different/working hub port -- same results.

There is only one NIC in both the PDC and the BDC.

Nope -- its not the link port.  This hub has it clearly marked and its in there and hub is working fine.

The bindings are correct.

IPCONFIG /ALL shows everything correct.
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Tim HolmanCommented:
Are both PDC and BDC on the same subnet ?
If not, do you have LMHOSTS or WINS setup so that you can resolve names across the subnet boundary ?

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Tim HolmanCommented:
Are both PDC and BDC on the same subnet ?
If not, do you have LMHOSTS or WINS setup so that you can resolve names across the subnet boundary ?
Please post up IPCONFIG /ALL from PDC and BDC.

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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I have tried it in a different/working hub port -- same results.

There is only one NIC in both the PDC and the BDC.

Nope -- its not the link port.  This hub has it clearly marked and its in there and hub is working fine.

The bindings are correct.

IPCONFIG /ALL shows everything correct.
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DavidHalperinCommented:
Got this out of MSDN Library, maybe this will help






When an installation of a backup domain controller (BDC) is performed, the primary domain controller (PDC) must be available to establish the computer account and the Security Identifier (SID) for the new BDC. If the protocol being used is TCP/IP and, in order to form a connection to the PDC, TCP/IP must be routed, name resolution for the domain name and the computer name must be established during the Network setup.



MORE INFORMATION
Name resolution for connectivity to the primary domain controller can be established by using one of the following methods:


Enter a primary and, optionally, a secondary WINS server where the PDC has registered the domain<1Bh> entry.

-or-


Use an LMHOSTS file that has at least an entry for the PDC as follows:

<PDC IP address> "DOMAINNAME \0x1B" #PRE

NOTE: There must be exactly 20 characters inside the double quotes.

For more information, see the following articles in the Microsoft Knowledge base:

ARTICLE-ID: Q180094
TITLE : How to Write an LMHOSTS File for Domain Validation

ARTICLE-ID: Q180099
TITLE : Troubleshooting LMHOSTS Name Resolution Issues



During installation, if WINS servers are not available, the LMHOSTS file can be used by importing it from a floppy disk or from an existing physical drive on the computer being installed. The location for importing the LMHOSTS file is in the Advanced options in the TCP/IP configuration dialog during Network setup. This must be completed during the portion of Setup where you configure the properties of the TCP/IP protocol.

If the PDC cannot be located during setup, you will get the following error message:

The domain controller for this domain cannot be located.

If you get this message, check the following:

Adapter configuration settings.


Default gateway configuration on the adapter.


If using WINS to locate the PDC, make sure the WINS server you are pointing to contains the 1Bh registration for the domain name.


Check the syntax of the LMHOSTS file.


At this point, installation must be restarted. Going back to the network configuration by selecting the previous screen boxes will not reinitialize your TCP/IP configuration settings.

NOTE: If you are installing a Windows NT 4.0 domain controller, restarting the server will restart the installation at the GUI portion of setup. Previous versions of Windows NT require setup to be restarted from the beginning.

This scenario is not an issue for a server non-domain controller, as that type of installation is capable of becoming part of a workgroup where membership in the domain is not mandatory during setup.



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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I have tried it in a different/working hub port -- same results.

There is only one NIC in both the PDC and the BDC.

Nope -- its not the link port.  This hub has it clearly marked and its in there and hub is working fine.

The bindings are correct.

IPCONFIG /ALL shows everything correct.
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Tim HolmanCommented:
Have you tried a different NIC ?
What type of NIC is it ?
What type of hub have you got ?
Try forcing the NIC to whatever speed the hub is.
If it's a 10/100 3com card with autosensing, it's known to cause these sort of problems.
Try half duplex, full duplex and any other network settings it lets you play with.
I'm convinced it's a NIC / HUB problem, as BDCs just do not drop out of the network due to software/configuration/name resolution problems !
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I have not tried a different NIC -- I have forced it to 10 MB to match the hub.  I have changed some of the other settings as well.

KW
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Tim HolmanCommented:
See if you can get hold of another NIC.
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DavidHalperinCommented:
Not sure if this applies, this is my last shot at this:


For each BDC, there is a discrete communication channel (the secure channel) with the PDC. The secure channel is used by the NetLogon service on the BDC and on the PDC in order to communicate.

When a BDC is part of a domain, a computer account is created (the computer account can be seen with Server Manager.) A default password is given to the computer account and the BDC stores the password in LSA secret storage $machine.acc.

Each BDC maintains such an LSA secret, which is used by the NetLogon service in order to establish a secure channel.

The problem described above is not related to the secure channel's password. The NetLogon service fails to start on the BDC even though the BDC computer's account password and BDC secret $machine.acc are synchronized. This can be checked with NETDOM utility provided with Windows NT 4.0 Resource Kit Supplement 2 by running the following command on the BDC:

   netdom bdc \\bdcname /query


The output looks similar to the following:

   NetDom 1.2 @1997.
   Querying domain information on computer \\BDCNAME ...
   The computer \\BDCNAME is a domain controller of DOMAIN.
   Searching PDC for domain DOMAIN ...
   Found PDC \\PDCNAME
   Verifying secure channel on \\BDCNAME ...
   Verifying the computer account on the PDC \\PDCNAME ...
   Secure channel checked successfully.
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I have not tried a different NIC -- I have forced it to 10 MB to match the hub.  I have changed some of the other settings as well.

KW
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
---  I have decided to delete this question.  I am exactly where I was when I started.  I am convinced it is a problem between SBS 4.5 and the BDC which is running NT 4.0  -- I appreciate all of the comments -- however none of them seemed to work.  Thanks for the time and comments !!!

klworley
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
This question has a deletion request Pending
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Tim HolmanCommented:
This question no longer is pending deletion
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Tim HolmanCommented:
You haven't tried another NIC yet !
There are no known Microsoft problems with running SBS 4.5 on an NT 4.0 BDC that cause the BDC to drop out of the network.
(To my knowledge, anyway !)
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ABCStoreCommented:
Absolutely!

I'm 99.9% sure it's a hardware problem.
NIC - cable - RJ45

P.S. Sometime ago I've heard that SBS cannot have BDC at all...
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
---  I have decided to delete this question.  I am exactly where I was when I started.  I am convinced it is a problem between SBS 4.5 and the BDC which is running NT 4.0  -- I appreciate all of the comments -- however none of them seemed to work.  Thanks for the time and comments !!!

klworley
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
This question has a deletion request Pending
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
ABC Store -- I have tried different cables both on the PDC and the BDC.  I have moved the PDC to a different HUB in the network room.  I have tried a new Kingston hub in the work room.  It is not cables or hubs.

Tim Holman -- explain how you figure it to be the NIC when I have no problems doing ANYTHING from the BDC -- except communicate with the PDC.  I have no problems talking with any other machine, all diagnostics check out and I no problems working on the internet.

I do no believe it is a NIC problem -- explain what I am missing and I will change the NIC otherwise--I ask that this question be deleted.

klworley
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
also, ABC store -- SBS can have a BDC.  It cannot however be promoted to PDC without taking SBS out of the network as SBS ONLY functions as a PDC.

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Tim HolmanCommented:
This question no longer is pending deletion
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Tim HolmanCommented:
Are both PDC and BDC plugged into the same hub ?
I need to know what network hardware you have in between them.
It could be the PDC's NIC at fault, or, seeming that's been OK for ages, I suspect the hub.
Just a hunch, that's all.
The only reason I've seen computers drop out of networks is down to either the network card configuration, a dodgy hub, silly switch configuration etc.
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
also, ABC store -- SBS can have a BDC.  It cannot however be promoted to PDC without taking SBS out of the network as SBS ONLY functions as a PDC.

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klworleyAuthor Commented:
There is nothing between them except the two hubs.  (Which are also between my machine and the PDC - with which I have no problems)

Also, the same is true of the PDC -- I have no problems accessing any other computer from it, diags run fine and I can access anything internet-wise with it.  I have changed the PDC from one hub to another as well as changing the cables.

These lead me to the conclusion that something is amiss between the SBS 4.5 and the NT 4.0 -- not the hardware on either DC.  They are the ones having problems with each other as such I see my only choices being rebuild the PDC (bad idea) or rebuild the BDC (no big deal --- unless the problem is with the PDC in which case it won't work anyway!! - but then I'd know I need to rebuild the PDC)

Do you still object to my deleting the question???


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Tim HolmanCommented:
No.  I'm just frustrated at the lack of any potential solution !
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
There is nothing between them except the two hubs.  (Which are also between my machine and the PDC - with which I have no problems)

Also, the same is true of the PDC -- I have no problems accessing any other computer from it, diags run fine and I can access anything internet-wise with it.  I have changed the PDC from one hub to another as well as changing the cables.

These lead me to the conclusion that something is amiss between the SBS 4.5 and the NT 4.0 -- not the hardware on either DC.  They are the ones having problems with each other as such I see my only choices being rebuild the PDC (bad idea) or rebuild the BDC (no big deal --- unless the problem is with the PDC in which case it won't work anyway!! - but then I'd know I need to rebuild the PDC)

Do you still object to my deleting the question???


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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I assure you -- NOWHERE NEAR as frustrated as I am.  I have several close friends who are MCSE's etc. that have all tried to help me with this to no avail.  (One of them I had NEVER stumped)

I just don't know what else to do.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions though.

Kim
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I assure you -- NOWHERE NEAR as frustrated as I am.  I have several close friends who are MCSE's etc. that have all tried to help me with this to no avail.  (One of them I had NEVER stumped)

I just don't know what else to do.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions though.

Kim
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I am setting this up again to delete.  I feel that I have tried everything offered here and don't see that anything has helped.  I'm simply going to take down the BDC and start over.  Nothing else seems to have worked.  
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
This question has a deletion request Pending
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ABCStoreCommented:
This question no longer is pending deletion
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ABCStoreCommented:
Keep it up until you find a solution?..
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
Do you have a suggestion?  I've tried everything everyone here has posted -- and everything all of my associates have told me and nothing.  The only option I have at this time I feel is to re-install.

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ABCStoreCommented:
Then reinstall and tell us if it tokk care of the problem. We all need to share our experience...
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Tim HolmanCommented:
Same subnet ?
What componentes of SBS do you have installed ?

Try :

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q240/7/79.ASP?LNG=ENG&SA=ALLKB

SYMPTOMS
When you use Internet Information Server (IIS) 4.0, the following error may occur in the event log:

Source: W3SVC
Event ID: 105
Description: The server was unable to register the administration tool discovery information. The administration tool may not be able to see this server. The data is the error code.



RESOLUTION
Remove, and then reinstall the NetBIOS Interface network service. To do this, perform the following steps:

In Control Panel, double-click Network, and then click the Services tab.


Select NetBIOS Interface, and then click Remove.


Click Close (this will cause the bindings to be rebuilt). When you are prompted to restart the computer, click Yes.


After the computer restarts, open Control Panel again, double-click Network, and then click the Services tab.


Click Add, select NetBIOS Interface from the list of network services, and then click OK.


Click Close (this will cause the bindings to be rebuilt). When you are prompted to restart the computer, click No.


Re-apply the latest Windows NT service pack.


Restart the computer.
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
Tim -- I appreciate the last answer -- even looks like something that might have helped --- we won't know though.  

Last night I did a reinstall.  Everything cleared up.  The best assumption I have is that it had something to do with the Machine Account and SID between the PDC and BDC -- even though I had partial operation of everthing.

So -- the reinstall fixed all.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions from everyone.

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klworleyAuthor Commented:
Asking that this be deleted.  None of the suggestions were accepted as an answer.  Had to reinstall NT to correct.

Kim Worley
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
This question has a deletion request Pending
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Tim HolmanCommented:
This question no longer is pending deletion
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Tim HolmanCommented:
Shame... that would have fixed it you know !
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
This question has a deletion request Pending
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
As stated above -- none of the solutions provided fixed the problem -- had to resort to a reinstall.
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netmageCommented:
This question no longer is pending deletion
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netmageCommented:
Did you rebuild the BDC to the same name?

A week between the original problem and now would mean that it may have accepted the old name but it could also be Tim Holman's suggestion that  worked due to the reinstall.

I've encountered your problem before and was the reason i suggested the rebuild.

Its not so painfull to rebuild just after first installation and takes minimal time compared to what you have been through.


I was following this thread hopeing for a resolution myself.

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klworleyAuthor Commented:
Since I was doing the rebuild anyway -- I did try to rebuild it to the same name --- and it still didn't work. I rebuilt it to a different name and things did work then.

So the only thing I can figure is a "partially" corrupt machine account/SID (cause remember it did let me do everything -- except communicate --consistantly with the PDC.

I didn't know you could have one of those -- which is why I struggled so long with this before doing a re-install...I guess now I know.

KW
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
This question has a deletion request Pending
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mrorangeCommented:
This question no longer is pending deletion
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mrorangeCommented:
Like I said at the beginning you should have cut your losses and reinstalled from the start.  I,ve had similar probs in the past, their was no logical explanation for it a reinstallation was just the quickest solution.

Glad to hear your up and running now.
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
This question has a deletion request Pending
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netmageCommented:
This question no longer is pending deletion
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netmageCommented:
I notice you have requested this question be deleted.

Sorry to object but your final solution  to reinstall was my exact suggestion to reinstall to a new name.

There were also follow up comments by others regarding the SID issue.

Regardless of the points,I believe that by killing this question you will be removing information from E-E that may help another to resolve a question.

There was also much work put into this problem by others and i believe it is of a quality that doensn't deserve to be trashed.

One other query:-

Did you use rollback.exe to do the final install or did you do it from scratch?
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klworleyAuthor Commented:
I did the re-install from scratch.  As for your recommendation -- I was already aware of being able to do a re-install.  My question was looking for options to that.  I believe it goes without saying that you always have an option to reinstall.

I really don't care about the points either -- but since you mentioned them I'll just award them to MRORANGE -- he posted the same thing only 4 minutes ahead of you.  
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