File Sharing could not load

I just added an Ethernet card to my Performa/LC 475 running MacOS 8.1.  Now, when I boot, it tells me that the file sharing extension cannot start.  No information about what is bothering it, of course...

I reloaded the OS and there is no change.

This is probably an FAQ or a simple question, but it's worth 100 points to "cut to the chase".  What do I do to fix this?

Thanks

Justin Harlow
harlowAsked:
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centervConnect With a Mentor Commented:
When you installed 8.1 from the cd, it propably installed the updated apple disk drivers.
It does this automatically.
You can go back and reinstall the other disk drivers, but they propably wont be compatible with 8.1, especially if you have HFS+
My suggestion to you is to back up your data, start your mac with the 8.1 cd, run drive setup from the utilities folder om the cd,  to reformat and partion your drive, run DFA to check it and reinstall 8.1.
Have the hardware all in place and on when you install.
After installation, run the wizards and you will be prompted for the file sharing info, internet connection, computer name etc.
 Having that last info from you,that would be my option.
Also I would choose to format the hard drive the same as the other mac, for the sake of compatability, HFS or HFS+

If you still need Norton, you can try their web site and see if you can download a 30 day trial. I know they do that a lot with some of their software. Not sure about this one.
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elpmetCommented:
How are you setting up your mac?
Are you connecting it with other mac at home?  In that case, are you using a hub or a cross-over cable to connect the two?

Or are you hooking it up to the network with ip?

You've alreayd checked the AppleTalk control panel to see it's talking through "ehternet", right?


Let me know.

Elpmet

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centervCommented:
Yes, more info is helpful.
Give specific details as to where you're at and what you wish to accomplish.
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harlowAuthor Commented:
OK.  I have an LC475 with MacOS 8.1 which has been running fine for ages.  I have been using appletalk over twisted pair (phone net) to share files with my wife's Mac and a printer.  What I want to do is replace the slow phone net setup with Ethernet (she has an 8100 which is Ethernet ready) and also set up file sharing with my PC running NT 4.0.  

To get started, I installed an Ethernet card (PDS 10BT) in the LC and hooked it to the PC with a crossover connector, so I just have a two-node Ethernet.  The LC had the Ethernet extensions disabled, so I enabled them and restarted.  When the system came back up, it announced "File Sharing Could Not Be Enabled" in an ominous pink window.  I went to the file sharing control panel and tried to start it, but after a few seconds, I got the same thing.

Assuming that there was some extension missing, I did a clean install of the OS, but continued to get the same result.  I have done this several times, looked for missing or incorrect extensions, etc. but to no avail.

I have looked at the Appletalk control panel and selected Ethernet, but I am not sure I am setting it up right.  I don't have a fixed IP address to use, and the NT box is not a server, so there is no DHCP to assign an IP address.  In any event, I am not sure you need an IP address anyway if you are going to run Appletalk.  None of the tutorials on homepcnetwork.com address this issue; they just show you entering an IP address that you got from somewhere.

I tried setting Appletalk to run over the printer port, just like it has always done, but I still get the message about not being able to start file sharing.  (Why don't they give you a hint about what is missing or wrong...?)

So what I need, I guess, is this:

1. Why will file sharing not start?  Is it because I have to first set up Appletalk on Ethernet?  If not, what is bothering it?  

2. If I do have to set up Appletalk over Ethernet before file sharing can start, what do I use for an IP address?  I don't want to just pick one out of the air, because I often hook up to an ISP using PPP, and that could cause net chaos.

3. Is there a more detailed guide somewhere that explains how all this Mac networking stuff works?  I find it hopelessly confusing compared to the allegedly complex world of Unix and NT....

Thanks

JEH

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centervCommented:
No problem.
You can't fileshare between mac and pc. You need software such as "Dave" to see each other files over a TCP network.
Appleshare is compatible only with macs.
In a mix you need to have a tcp network setup, compatible with both.
Private IP numbers are reserved for LANs  not used by any ISP.  Most common are 192.168.0.1 to 255.
You can have both appletalk and tcp running at the same time in a mix setup.
You're not getting any hints about filesharing being disabled because the mac can't read any info on the pc.
You can check the following sites. they discuss cable sharing, but you need to set up a LAN 1st, so all the info is there, or at least it'l give you a good overview.
http://threemacs.com/network/
http://timhiggins.com/

Great little machine the 475. Not it's fault.
Ping if you need more help from here.
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harlowAuthor Commented:
OK, this is very helpful.  I do plan to install Dave, but I assumed I had to have the system more or less stable before installation.  When it suddenly decided it couldn't do filesharing any more, I thought I needed to fix that before going on.  As I understand it, Dave uses TCP/IP anyway, so if I install it and use the private IP numbers you mention for my Macs, things should work.  I'll take a look at those web sites you mention too.

Thanks... stay tuned.

JEH

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centervCommented:
I would stabilize the network with the other mac and pc before installind dave.
TCp is the universal setup for mix OSs.
When your hardware is set, you can ping the others to see if you have connection.
Even though mac and pc may not see each other, you can still ping them and know that they are talking.
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harlowAuthor Commented:
OK, thanks.  Does the "can't start file sharing" thing have any impact on all of this?
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centervCommented:
If you're trying to file share with the pc.
If you get this with the mac, then you propably havent configured users and group control panel.
The mac help index has really good directions on networkin and all its pieces if I remember.
You need to co-ordinate about 3 control panels and 2 extensions in order for all to work.
Check out the help file.
I think it does a better job of explaining than I propably can.

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centervCommented:
Actually the help files walks you through the configuration/
Ping if it gives you trouble.
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Owen RubinPrincipalCommented:
This problem has nothing to do with the network and everything to do with the Mac. I occasionaly get this message on just about every Mac I have owned, and they are all on Mac only networks.

Why adding the card makes a difference is beyond me. I suspect regardless of what you choose for the network, when file sharing tries to start you will get this error.

Here is how I have fixed it in the past. Since I am not sure WHY , I do them all. Do each one, try again. if it still does not work, do the next step:
1). Throw away ALL preferences files that have to do with appletalk. reinstalling does not fix these. This is the most likely cause. These include Appleshare Prep, AppleTalk Preferences, File Sharing Folder and contents (unlikely to be a problem), and the most likely candidate: Users & Groups preferences files (there are 2)
2). Rebuild the desktop database. If it is screwed up, it will kill file sharing.
3). Run Norton's Utilities. If you have a disk structure error, file sharing will also quit.
4). Did you crash recently? Partially opened files, or files that the system thinks are being already shared can cause a problem.
5). ZAP Pram: I have seen bad preference regardless of what you set the network for stop Appletalk from starting.

Usually after doing all of these, it works just fine.
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Owen RubinPrincipalCommented:
This problem has nothing to do with the network and everything to do with the Mac. I occasionaly get this message on just about every Mac I have owned, and they are all on Mac only networks.

Why adding the card makes a difference is beyond me. I suspect regardless of what you choose for the network, when file sharing tries to start you will get this error.

Here is how I have fixed it in the past. Since I am not sure WHY , I do them all. Do each one, try again. if it still does not work, do the next step:
1). Throw away ALL preferences files that have to do with appletalk. reinstalling does not fix these. This is the most likely cause. These include Appleshare Prep, AppleTalk Preferences, File Sharing Folder and contents (unlikely to be a problem), and the most likely candidate: Users & Groups preferences files (there are 2)
2). Rebuild the desktop database. If it is screwed up, it will kill file sharing.
3). Run Norton's Utilities. If you have a disk structure error, file sharing will also quit.
4). Did you crash recently? Partially opened files, or files that the system thinks are being already shared can cause a problem.
5). ZAP Pram: I have seen bad preference regardless of what you set the network for stop Appletalk from starting.

Usually after doing all of these, it works just fine.
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centervCommented:
Yes, getting rid of old prefs is always a good idea.
harlow
If you haven't got there yet, I'm copying a very timely tip from a newsletter I just opened. Hope it heps you.


SETTING UP FILE SHARING FOR MAC OS 8 OR LATER

WHY USE A FILE SERVER:

A file servers allow networked computers to share, save and access
files on a remote volume. A personal file server can restrict access
privileges to guests and registered users.

HOW DO I CONNECT:

From the Chooser (in the Apple Menu), click on the AppleShare icon,
and select an AppleTalk Zones on the lower left if necessary. Click
on the name of the server you wish to select  in the "Select a file
server" box on the right, then click OK. You will get a dialog box
listing the shared volumes on the selected server. Depending on the
privileges set by the volume owner, you may either enter as a guest
or have to type in a username and password.

Selecting the small square to the right of the item will
automatically try to open the server and mount the shared volume at
startup. It can be a useful trick, but can also cause some problems
if your connection to the network isn't permanent, on top of slowing
down your computer.

Make sure to unmount the shared volume by dragging it to the trash
(or typing Command-Y) when you are finished.


SHARING MY FILES

Open the File Sharing control panel, and fill in the necessary
information: Owner name, owner password. and computer name.

Click on Start to activate File Sharing on your Mac.

To create users and groups and set privileges for people accessing
your Mac, open the Users and Groups control panel and select New User
from the file menu. A .New user" icon will be created in the list
window.  Double-click it and set a password.
Set the user's name and password using the  "identity" menu.  From
the "sharing" menu, select "Allow user to connect to this computer,"
but don't  "Allow user to link to programs on this computer."

From the File Menu, select New Group and create one - such as
"Department", or "Friends". You can add users to a group by dragging
their user icons on top of the group icon and dropping them in. Using
a group makes it easier to set access privileges for many users at
once.

Finally, share your files! Selecting the disk, folder or file you
want to share, go to the Finder's "File" menu and choose Sharing,
then select "Share this item and its contents" and the "Make all
enclosed folders like this one." Set the access privilege of the
volume for Owner, Users, and Guests.

Close and save changes, and you're done!


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Owen RubinPrincipalCommented:
OH!!! I FORGOT ONE ITEM IN MY COMMENT ABOVE, and it is MOST IMPORTANT: Be sure you have a Macintosh name, a user name, and a password in the File Sharing Control Panel or File Sharing will not start! I forgot that one, it is number one on the list of things to check!

Note: You can turn on file sharing without doing any of the stuff listed in the above comment. This is great info for advanced sharing of items and controlling who sees what in a large user environment, but from home or a small group, you do not need to set up any users, groups, or items to start sharing.

If you log onto a Mac with file sharing that has not been set up (ie, no users or groups, simply turned on), the GUEST icon in the Chooser may be grey. However, if you log on as a registered user with the sharing Macintosh's owner's name and password (set above), you will see everything on the Shared Mac. This is all you need to do unless you want some fancy sharing set up

(Also, sorry for the duplicate post, it was a Browser error)
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centervCommented:
orrubin
somewhere along the line I get the feeling that you missed the part about the mixed usage?
It also gets my goat when someone tries to minimize how the whole system works.
Learning the whole system makes for less calls to tech support, wasted time, aggravation and on and .........................
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harlowAuthor Commented:
Well, I got rid of prefs, zapped PRAM, and rebuilt desktop.  I don't have Norton utils, so I couldn't do that part.  Anyway, same old thing: File sharing could not start".  Now what?

I didn't understand the comment about "mixed usage".  What was that referring to?  And you are right: I do not know much about Mac system admin, although I am pretty good on Unix and Windows.  My wife is a Mac diehard, and I keep one around myself for graphics and pubs work, but I always rely on the Mac's "easy" reputation to help me through these times.  I often get beyond my knowledge when I try to change something.  I find most Mac documentation to be pretty opaque, and the help files unhelpful.  Can anyone recommend a good source, like a third party book or something, to get up to speed?

Thanks

JEH
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centervCommented:
Ok  I sense that your frame of mind is not in this and you’re fighting it  and just  going thru it for your wife’ sake
Also, you haven’t checked the links I provided you earlier. I forgive you, for now.
Remember, a happy computing wife makes for happy home.

As to books, The IDG series are pretty well written and easy too read. Allow you to skip over parts you know easy. Go to your local Barnes and Noble and pull up a chair.

Mixed usage is networking macs and wintels.

FACTS  (some specific to this case)

Apple began networking of pc back when, and never really improved their setup software over the years because it always ran well.  
However, it ‘s not  in the  user friendly category that mac has a rep for.
The later OSs are better, 8.1 not being one of them.
Your LC wont run higher than 8.1 so you have to deal with it.
Network Neighborhood in wintel gives you access to all the configuration files by the various  click boxes and tabs.  Give one to wintel.
Mac has much the same configurations, some the same name (remember where windows came from) but not lumped together under one heading. You need to go to the individual, separate  panels to configure them, and they all need to be correct  because they all work together.
Appleshare is mac only. Does not work with wintel much as IPX doe not work on Mac.
You can setup Appleshare to work with macs within a mixed usage, but only the macs will be able to take advantage of that. You can’t appleshare with wintel.
You can network macs through TCP/IP as well, with or without appleshare, the same way as you can network wintel  and have file and printer share at the same time.
TCP/IP is universal so therefore that's the protocol you use to have a mixed network.
DAVE lets you operate in the network neighborhood  over a tcp connection, not AppleTalk.
Appletalk is extremely easy if you just want to share macs.
If  you are connected  to the internet, than you have a tcp connection already. You need to make another  tcp connection for the network.. In both platforms.
You can have a DUN connection over tcp and a separate ethernet  tcp protocol on the same machine at the same time.
The tcp setup is not much different if not identical from one machine to the other, the location of where to make the set up is different.
Networks do not work if the setup is not exactly right.

With that mouthful you need to decide what you want to do specifically.
Get rid of the phonenet and crossover cable.
When you have the pcs connected to a hub with cat5 cable and NICs in place, you’re ready to network.
If sharing a modem is your goal, that's another issue, but you still need a tcp LAN in place for that.

Make a specific plan and we can address the specific issues.

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Owen RubinPrincipalCommented:
Centerv: I did not miss the item on "mixed usage", ie trying to connect the PC and Mac together, you had covered that well with using Dave, and I agree.

The problem was trying to get File Sharing Enabled first, because that was not working at all with the error being received, and you cannot go any futher until that error is corrected.

As for the Facts, very interesting reading.

Harlow: I do see this error occasionally, and the list I gave you does fix the problem. You did not mention if you checked the File Sharing Control Panel and made sure you filled in your name, password and computer name as well. Get a copy of Norton, borrow from a friend for a one time usage. I recommend having it anyway. You might be able to find a used  copy since you are using 8.1 and it has been updated since then. Errors in the directory structure of the disk can cause sharing problems. You might also try Disk First Aid as it might correct the disk problem, but it is not as good.

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centervCommented:
orrubin
Tell me something.
Are you here to try and help the guy out or to cause confusion by your speculative remarks.
If you have constructive input, by all means say it, otherwise keep it to yourself.
In this type of environment you're guessing most of the time as to what the person is doing or how much knowledge they have.
By giving them as much specific info about what they're doing, without taking them a step at a time, they're bound  to recognize their situation and find an aswer.
The items you mention are all good disk managment maintnance, however by your own admission, you dont know WHY they work.
Although I undersatnd where you're coming from with that, I would also say that with that type of explanation I wouldn't rush to get on a mighty horse if I were you.
GOOG DAY.
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harlowAuthor Commented:
centerv: I did check that my name, password, and computer name were set up OK in the file sharing control panel.  I am looking around for a copy of the Norton utils; for what it's worth, my disk was partitioned by LaCie SilverLining a couple of years back, and I always get nastygrams from the MacOS installer and Disk First Aid about nonstandard drivers.  It's never been a problem in the past (everything was workin gfine before I stuck the Ethernet card in), but I suppose something might have gotten hosed up here recently.  I'll definitely check out the disk situation.

All: thanks for all your comments.  Somewhere in all this I know I will find the answer.  I've been going through the threemacs tutorials, so maybe I'll see the light there too.

JEH
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harlowAuthor Commented:
Yeah, I think you're right. I'll make that my weekend project!

JEH
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Owen RubinPrincipalCommented:
centerv: I am trying to appreciate your motive, but attacking me will not help either of us or the person asking the quesiton!

As for guessing: I worked for near 7 years at Apple and was responsible for integrating most of the system software as well as writin many pieces. I am not guessing. You misunderstood my statement: I do not know which of the problems caused the problem, so I  listed them all. What I do not know is WHY (as in which problem) is causing filesharing from starting for harlow. These steps have fixed this problem for myself and several of my friends.

Harlow: I am sorry if I was not clear, and sorry that centerv thinks I am hacking at a solution. If none of this works, let me know and I will be gald to  talk to some Apple friends and get you an answer.
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harlowAuthor Commented:
Hey, I appreciate all the suggesttions from both of you.  Unfortunately my knowledge base is so shallow here that I need all the help I can get.  So far I have:

1. Done a clean reload of OS 8.1
2. Checked that system name, user name, and password are set up in File Sharing CP
3. Gotten rid of all the old prefs that had anything to do with appletalk and ethernet.
4. Zapped PRAM
5. Rebuilt desktop
6. Ran DFA (and it repaired something on the startup disk).
7. Checked the extensions to make sure I had all the file sharing, ethernet, OT, etc extensions enabled.
8. Set appletalk to Ethernet
9. Set up tcp/ip to run on ethernet and gave it a valid LAN IP address (192.168.0.1).

The only things that have been suggested that I have not yet done are
(a) Run Norton utils (haven't found it yet)
(b) reformatted the disk and started from scratch

My guess is that (b) is going to turn out to be the solution, however unsatisfying it may be.  I am going to try to get this done over the weekend, if I can get everything suitably backed up and find the time to slog through this on my ancient 4x cdrom....

Thanks all.  I'll report back as soon as I have some new news.

JEH
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centervCommented:
Only because of your LaCie partitioning does it lead me to the reformat conclusion.
Depending on the amount of time you want to save, you could check with LaCie about disk drivers for 8.1 or check their site and see whats available.
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becredclayCommented:
Did you try removing the ethernet card to see if file sharing will start up on Localtalk?  If it does, the system is ok; the card may be causing the problem.
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JapanExpertsCommented:
Make sure that the card on the 475 is pushed in far enough.   I had that problem with mine, and I just had to give it a shove until it clicked.
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harlowAuthor Commented:
reformatting and reinstalling fixed the problem, so centerv gets the points.  many thanks to all of you who commented and assisted.

JEH
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centervCommented:
Glad it worked for you.
 I'm sure it kept you off the streets this weekend.
Good luck.
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