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A can see B but B cannot see A or C

Posted on 2000-02-29
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My question is one where a picture is worth a thousand words.  I thought it would be better to post my question with accompanying screen snapshots at a Web site for Experts to check out.  Please visit:

unzip.bizland.com/network/network.htm

...and then please respond here with a possible solution.

Thanks.
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Question by:Softtech
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by:Dassa
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First off.  Although you have the File and Printer sharing installed, I'd make sure the option to allow others to access the computer using this is ticked off.  I would also suggest allowing NetBIOS over tcp/ip.  I would only have one system with Automatic Browse Master and the rest set to NO.   Not sure if I follow your setup for sharing the Internet access.  Assume you are using ICS.  I would suggest using one of the PC's as a firewall and gateway for added security but that is another issue.  All I can think of at the moment.
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by:Softtech
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I have BlackIce Defender installed on all 4 PCs (software firewall).

I do not believe allowing NetBios over TCP/IP is a good idea, even with a fireware in place.  I thought NetBios on TCP/IP is a security risk.

I am not using ICS...I am using a cable modem that dynamically assigns IP addresses to each NIC.

>>Although you have the File and
>>Printer sharing installed, I'd make
>>sure the option to allow others to
>>access the computer using this is
>>ticked off.  


How is PC200 supposed to copy and send files to PC450, and vice versa if I disable file and print sharing?  The purpose of the network is to share files/resources.  Turning file/print sharing off would defeat the purpose of the LAN.

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by:Softtech
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Here's another problem that exists on PC450 after rebooting PC450 just a few minutes ago.

ON PC450's Network Neighborhood, only the "Entire Network" item exists.  If I double click on it, I get an error "Unable to browse network".

If I then go to Start > Find > Computers and enter "pc600", it finds PC600!  If I double click on PC600 from the Find Results, I do connect to PC600!  However, if I try the same Find > Computer and look for PC200, no results are returned!

Even after I have double clicked the PC600 icon in the "Find > Computer" results window, Network Neighbor's "Entire Network" refuses to show a workgroup or any PC at all.
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by:Dassa
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Sorry, by ticked off, I meant that it was selected and actually on.  And yes, Netbios over tcp/ip can be a security risk.  Have you tried disconnecting the network from the Internet, disabling BlackICE and seeing if that makes a difference?  How does the cable modem assign an IP address to the NIC's?  And are the systems configured correctly for this?  I seem to be raising more questions than I am answering :(.
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by:Dassa
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BTW...you might like to look at the links on your page for this question also.  You have some local links towards the bottom of the page referring to files on your G: drive.
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by:Softtech
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>>You have some local links towards the
>>bottom of the page referring to files
>> on your G: drive


Thank Microsoft for that!  FrontPage 2000 can be a real pain.

In any case, thanks...and I've fixed the page/links in quesiton.  Please try again.

You are missing alot if you haven't seen the links.
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by:Softtech
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>>How does the cable modem assign an IP
>> address to the NIC's?


On my ISP's  side they are using a DHCP host to assign IPs.
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by:sidou
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Are all computers set to the same workgroup?
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by:Softtech
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>>Are all computers set to the same
>>workgroup?


Yes they are all set to workgroup "SOFTWORD"
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by:jvreeland
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are they switches or hubs, shitches need to be daisy chained with the cable in a specific opening on both.

I forget now but I think it is the top right one, on both.

check out the docs on your hubs make sure they dont need to be connected in some special way.  Can you telnet into them?

and oh yeah, if you temp. disable firewall software on all machines, does problem go away??

i didnt see where your ip address are
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by:jvreeland
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are they switches or hubs, shitches need to be daisy chained with the cable in a specific opening on both.

I forget now but I think it is the top right one, on both.

check out the docs on your hubs make sure they dont need to be connected in some special way.  Can you telnet into them?

and oh yeah, if you temp. disable firewall software on all machines, does problem go away??

i didnt see where your ip address are
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by:Dassa
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One bit I can explain.  What shows in the Network Neighbourhood doesn't relate to the display from the Net Config command at a DOS prompt.  The Net Config command will just display the configuration information from the local system and doesn't reflect if the network is operating.  If you can't see the workgroup in the Entire Network from Network Neighbourhood it indicates that your network is not actually working.  The computers showing when you first open up the Neighbourhood will often be from a cache ie showing the last known systems on the Network.  They may or may not be accessable.  I would suggest making sure you can ping each machine to test if the networking protocols are available.
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by:Softtech
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>>are they switches or hubs

They are Netgear hubs.

>>Can you telnet into them?

I never knew you could Telnet to a hub.  How does one do that since the hubs don't have IP addresses (that I know of)?

>>i didnt see where your ip address are

They are dynamically assigned by the DHCP server on my ISP's side.  You can only see them via WINIPCFG.



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by:Softtech
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>>I would suggest making sure you can
>>ping each machine to test if the
>> networking protocols are available.


But does not pinging simply tell you that the TCP/IP protocol is working?  I am using TCP/IP only to connnect to the Internet.   I use NetBeui for the actual file and printer sharing in my LAN.

In any case, here's an example of the problem...

PC600 shows PC450 in the Network Neighborhood, however, if I double click on PC450 from PC600, I get an error "\\pc450 is not accessible.  The computer or sharename could not be found".   However, if I open up a DOS window on PC600 and ping to PC450's IP address, I get 0% packet loss, and quick responses each time.  So in summary, I can ping to PC450 from DOS, but I can't access PC450 from Windows 98 Network Neighborhood.
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Dassa earned 150 total points
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So, tcp/ip is working fine.  At least that proves that a connection exists and that the systems can communicate on at least that level.  I would really like to know the results of disabling the Firewall on the systems.  This is the major suspect to my mind.  
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by:sidou
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I don´t know if it´s worth in dial-up networking, but in the LAN I work, we frequently need to run \WINDOWS\WINIPCFG.EXE and refresh all the resources, so the computer can get a new IP address.

Alse, we found that computers only show up in network neighbor if they have the file and printer sharing service for Ms-Clients.
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by:jvreeland
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Do all the ip's match up nice like they are all on same subnet?

NOTE: I saw this hub that had an ip, requried crossover cable to dasiy chain and you could telnet in to set it up.

It is almost as if your firewall thinks that the machines on your network are from the outside world.  Just like you can ping yahoo.com but can't browse shares.

I would like to see every machines ip address at the moment this error occured.

In your firewall software you must have settings where you can give the world access to everything, try that and then work your way back to being secure, somewhere along the way you will find the part of the firewall causeing problem.

PS: I'm currious as to why you dont have one machine connected to the www and have all others go through it.  There are some ok hardware soloutions for what you are doing which would allow you to give all your machines names ans static ip's. they are cheap too.
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by:Softtech
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>>I would really like to know the
>>results of disabling the Firewall on
>> the systems.  


It makes no difference.  I removed BlackIce from the StartUp group on 3 of the PCs, rebooted them all, and PC200 and PC600 cannot access PC450 in Network Neighborhood after the reboot.  And yet PC450 can access all of the PCs on the network without any problem.

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by:Softtech
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>>Do all the ip's match up nice like
>> they are all on same subnet?


PC600:
IP 208.xxx.198.22
Sub 255.255.255.0
Gateway 208.xxx.198.1

PC450:
208.xxx.198.24
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC200:
208.xxx.198.253
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC233:
208.xxx.199.31
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1


....where "xxx" represents a number that is found in all of the addresses.

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Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>Do all the ip's match up nice like
>> they are all on same subnet?


PC600:
IP 208.xxx.198.22
Sub 255.255.255.0
Gateway 208.xxx.198.1

PC450:
208.xxx.198.24
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC200:
208.xxx.198.253
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC233:
208.xxx.199.31
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1


....where "xxx" represents a number that is found in all of the addresses.

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Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>I'm currious as to why you dont have
>>one machine connected to the www and
>>have all others go through it.


Because I started with 2 PCs, and wired them together without a hub.  The I added a 3rd PC, and added a hub.  I understood that a proxy server should be one of the fastest PCs I have, therefore I wasn't about to give up my fastest PC to serve as just a proxy server.

In short, I had no reason to do anything different than the way I currently have things set up.
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by:Dassa
Comment Utility
>>PC233:
>>208.xxx.199.31

I assume this was just a typo.  But as you are using Netbeui for the sharing anyway the problem is that they are not communicating correctly with that protocol, unrelated to the tcp/ip, as you pointed out earlier.  Might be an idea to make sure Netbeui is the default protocol in use.  Might be that tcp/ip has been set.  Should be a check box for this.  I still suspect that the firewall software may be blocking things.  Another thing to do is to make sure that the host files for each machine have the others listed.  Will make it easier for them to connect.
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Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>make sure Netbeui is the default >>protocol in use.  


It is the default.   TCP/IP's "Use this as default" are all unchecked.


>>Another thing to do is to make sure
>> that the host files for each machine
>>have the others listed


 Your Win95 Networking Question  Ask a Question    Other Questions    Reload Question    
Topic Area  Everything    
Home : Computers : Networking : Win95 : Q.10303273  
From: Softtech  Title: "A can see B but B cannot see A or C"    
Status: Waiting for answer.

Points: 125  Date: Tuesday, February 29 2000 - 10:54PM EST    
My question is one where a picture is worth a thousand words.  I thought it would be better to post my question with accompanying screen snapshots at a Web site for Experts to check out.  Please visit:

unzip.bizland.com/network/network.htm

....and then please respond here with a possible solution.

Thanks.

 
Question History  
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 01:42AM EST    
First off.  Although you have the File and Printer sharing installed, I'd make sure the option to allow others to access the computer using this is ticked off.  I would also suggest allowing NetBIOS over tcp/ip.  I would only have one system with Automatic Browse Master and the rest set to NO.   Not sure if I follow your setup for sharing the Internet access.  Assume you are using ICS.  I would suggest using one of the PC's as a firewall and gateway for added security but that is another issue.  All I can think of at the moment.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 03:44AM EST    
I have BlackIce Defender installed on all 4 PCs (software firewall).

I do not believe allowing NetBios over TCP/IP is a good idea, even with a fireware in place.  I thought NetBios on TCP/IP is a security risk.

I am not using ICS...I am using a cable modem that dynamically assigns IP addresses to each NIC.

>>Although you have the File and
>>Printer sharing installed, I'd make
>>sure the option to allow others to
>>access the computer using this is
>>ticked off.  


How is PC200 supposed to copy and send files to PC450, and vice versa if I disable file and print sharing?  The purpose of the network is to share files/resources.  Turning file/print sharing off would defeat the purpose of the LAN.



 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 04:01AM EST    
Here's another problem that exists on PC450 after rebooting PC450 just a few minutes ago.

ON PC450's Network Neighborhood, only the "Entire Network" item exists.  If I double click on it, I get an error "Unable to browse network".

If I then go to Start > Find > Computers and enter "pc600", it finds PC600!  If I double click on PC600 from the Find Results, I do connect to PC600!  However, if I try the same Find > Computer and look for PC200, no results are returned!

Even after I have double clicked the PC600 icon in the "Find > Computer" results window, Network Neighbor's "Entire Network" refuses to show a workgroup or any PC at all.

 
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 04:15AM EST    
Sorry, by ticked off, I meant that it was selected and actually on.  And yes, Netbios over tcp/ip can be a security risk.  Have you tried disconnecting the network from the Internet, disabling BlackICE and seeing if that makes a difference?  How does the cable modem assign an IP address to the NIC's?  And are the systems configured correctly for this?  I seem to be raising more questions than I am answering :(.

 
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 04:16AM EST    
BTW...you might like to look at the links on your page for this question also.  You have some local links towards the bottom of the page referring to files on your G: drive.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 01:01PM EST    
>>You have some local links towards the
>>bottom of the page referring to files
>> on your G: drive


Thank Microsoft for that!  FrontPage 2000 can be a real pain.

In any case, thanks...and I've fixed the page/links in quesiton.  Please try again.

You are missing alot if you haven't seen the links.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 01:02PM EST    
>>How does the cable modem assign an IP
>> address to the NIC's?


On my ISP's  side they are using a DHCP host to assign IPs.

 
Comment    
From: sidou
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 01:09PM EST    
Are all computers set to the same workgroup?

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 05:14PM EST    
>>Are all computers set to the same
>>workgroup?


Yes they are all set to workgroup "SOFTWORD"

 
Comment    
From: jvreeland
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 07:22PM EST    
are they switches or hubs, shitches need to be daisy chained with the cable in a specific opening on both.

I forget now but I think it is the top right one, on both.

check out the docs on your hubs make sure they dont need to be connected in some special way.  Can you telnet into them?

and oh yeah, if you temp. disable firewall software on all machines, does problem go away??

i didnt see where your ip address are

 
Comment    
From: jvreeland
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 08:12PM EST    
are they switches or hubs, shitches need to be daisy chained with the cable in a specific opening on both.

I forget now but I think it is the top right one, on both.

check out the docs on your hubs make sure they dont need to be connected in some special way.  Can you telnet into them?

and oh yeah, if you temp. disable firewall software on all machines, does problem go away??

i didnt see where your ip address are

 
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 01:28AM EST    
One bit I can explain.  What shows in the Network Neighbourhood doesn't relate to the display from the Net Config command at a DOS prompt.  The Net Config command will just display the configuration information from the local system and doesn't reflect if the network is operating.  If you can't see the workgroup in the Entire Network from Network Neighbourhood it indicates that your network is not actually working.  The computers showing when you first open up the Neighbourhood will often be from a cache ie showing the last known systems on the Network.  They may or may not be accessable.  I would suggest making sure you can ping each machine to test if the networking protocols are available.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 01:42AM EST    
>>are they switches or hubs

They are Netgear hubs.

>>Can you telnet into them?

I never knew you could Telnet to a hub.  How does one do that since the hubs don't have IP addresses (that I know of)?

>>i didnt see where your ip address are

They are dynamically assigned by the DHCP server on my ISP's side.  You can only see them via WINIPCFG.





 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 01:48AM EST    
>>I would suggest making sure you can
>>ping each machine to test if the
>> networking protocols are available.


But does not pinging simply tell you that the TCP/IP protocol is working?  I am using TCP/IP only to connnect to the Internet.   I use NetBeui for the actual file and printer sharing in my LAN.

In any case, here's an example of the problem...

PC600 shows PC450 in the Network Neighborhood, however, if I double click on PC450 from PC600, I get an error "\\pc450 is not accessible.  The computer or sharename could not be found".   However, if I open up a DOS window on PC600 and ping to PC450's IP address, I get 0% packet loss, and quick responses each time.  So in summary, I can ping to PC450 from DOS, but I can't access PC450 from Windows 98 Network Neighborhood.


 
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 01:59AM EST    
So, tcp/ip is working fine.  At least that proves that a connection exists and that the systems can communicate on at least that level.  I would really like to know the results of disabling the Firewall on the systems.  This is the major suspect to my mind.  

 
Comment    
From: sidou
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 06:44AM EST    
I don4t know if it4s worth in dial-up networking, but in the LAN I work, we frequently need to run \WINDOWS\WINIPCFG.EXE and refresh all the resources, so the computer can get a new IP address.

Alse, we found that computers only show up in network neighbor if they have the file and printer sharing service for Ms-Clients.

 
Comment    
From: jvreeland
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 06:35PM EST    
Do all the ip's match up nice like they are all on same subnet?

NOTE: I saw this hub that had an ip, requried crossover cable to dasiy chain and you could telnet in to set it up.

It is almost as if your firewall thinks that the machines on your network are from the outside world.  Just like you can ping yahoo.com but can't browse shares.

I would like to see every machines ip address at the moment this error occured.

In your firewall software you must have settings where you can give the world access to everything, try that and then work your way back to being secure, somewhere along the way you will find the part of the firewall causeing problem.

PS: I'm currious as to why you dont have one machine connected to the www and have all others go through it.  There are some ok hardware soloutions for what you are doing which would allow you to give all your machines names ans static ip's. they are cheap too.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Friday, March 03 2000 - 02:03AM EST    
>>I would really like to know the
>>results of disabling the Firewall on
>> the systems.  


It makes no difference.  I removed BlackIce from the StartUp group on 3 of the PCs, rebooted them all, and PC200 and PC600 cannot access PC450 in Network Neighborhood after the reboot.  And yet PC450 can access all of the PCs on the network without any problem.



 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Friday, March 03 2000 - 02:09AM EST    
>>Do all the ip's match up nice like
>> they are all on same subnet?


PC600:
IP 208.xxx.198.22
Sub 255.255.255.0
Gateway 208.xxx.198.1

PC450:
208.xxx.198.24
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC200:
208.xxx.198.253
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC233:
208.xxx.199.31
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1


.....where "xxx" represents a number that is found in all of the addresses.



 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Friday, March 03 2000 - 02:12AM EST    
>>Do all the ip's match up nice like
>> they are all on same subnet?


PC600:
IP 208.xxx.198.22
Sub 255.255.255.0
Gateway 208.xxx.198.1

PC450:
208.xxx.198.24
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC200:
208.xxx.198.253
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC233:
208.xxx.199.31
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1


.....where "xxx" represents a number that is found in all of the addresses.



 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Friday, March 03 2000 - 02:12AM EST    
>>I'm currious as to why you dont have
>>one machine connected to the www and
>>have all others go through it.


Because I started with 2 PCs, and wired them together without a hub.  The I added a 3rd PC, and added a hub.  I understood that a proxy server should be one of the fastest PCs I have, therefore I wasn't about to give up my fastest PC to serve as just a proxy server.

In short, I had no reason to do anything different than the way I currently have things set up.

 

>>PC233:
>>208.xxx.199.31

>>I assume this was just a typo.  


No, there is no typo.  I made sure that what I typed was accurate.
 

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Expert Comment

by:ruffus
Comment Utility
It sounds like everyone is barking up the wrong tree here. I have seen a similar situation with computers on a LAN using TCP/IP and some other protocol such as Netbeui or IPX/SPX. I believe, however, that Netbios over TCP/IP was checked, so I don't know as doing that would solve your problem. The scenario I have seen involved computers which sporatically saw each other in network neighborhood, but even if they couldn't, doing a find on the netbios name would work. Your PC233 having the IP address where the third octet (199) is not consistent with the others (198) should have no bearing so long as the subnet masks are all the same. I am interested in finding out the outcome because I have seen this situation once or twice WITHOUT any kind of firewall or proxy. I think those two elements are irrelevant. What I would look into is the protocols. Maybe try IPX/SPX instead of Netbeui since I can't remember which one was used along with TCP/IP in the example I had.
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Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>make sure Netbeui is the default >>protocol in use.  


It is the default.   TCP/IP's "Use this as default" are all unchecked.


>>Another thing to do is to make sure
>> that the host files for each machine
>>have the others listed


 Your Win95 Networking Question  Ask a Question    Other Questions    Reload Question    
Topic Area  Everything    
Home : Computers : Networking : Win95 : Q.10303273  
From: Softtech  Title: "A can see B but B cannot see A or C"    
Status: Waiting for answer.

Points: 125  Date: Tuesday, February 29 2000 - 10:54PM EST    
My question is one where a picture is worth a thousand words.  I thought it would be better to post my question with accompanying screen snapshots at a Web site for Experts to check out.  Please visit:

unzip.bizland.com/network/network.htm

....and then please respond here with a possible solution.

Thanks.

 
Question History  
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 01:42AM EST    
First off.  Although you have the File and Printer sharing installed, I'd make sure the option to allow others to access the computer using this is ticked off.  I would also suggest allowing NetBIOS over tcp/ip.  I would only have one system with Automatic Browse Master and the rest set to NO.   Not sure if I follow your setup for sharing the Internet access.  Assume you are using ICS.  I would suggest using one of the PC's as a firewall and gateway for added security but that is another issue.  All I can think of at the moment.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 03:44AM EST    
I have BlackIce Defender installed on all 4 PCs (software firewall).

I do not believe allowing NetBios over TCP/IP is a good idea, even with a fireware in place.  I thought NetBios on TCP/IP is a security risk.

I am not using ICS...I am using a cable modem that dynamically assigns IP addresses to each NIC.

>>Although you have the File and
>>Printer sharing installed, I'd make
>>sure the option to allow others to
>>access the computer using this is
>>ticked off.  


How is PC200 supposed to copy and send files to PC450, and vice versa if I disable file and print sharing?  The purpose of the network is to share files/resources.  Turning file/print sharing off would defeat the purpose of the LAN.



 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 04:01AM EST    
Here's another problem that exists on PC450 after rebooting PC450 just a few minutes ago.

ON PC450's Network Neighborhood, only the "Entire Network" item exists.  If I double click on it, I get an error "Unable to browse network".

If I then go to Start > Find > Computers and enter "pc600", it finds PC600!  If I double click on PC600 from the Find Results, I do connect to PC600!  However, if I try the same Find > Computer and look for PC200, no results are returned!

Even after I have double clicked the PC600 icon in the "Find > Computer" results window, Network Neighbor's "Entire Network" refuses to show a workgroup or any PC at all.

 
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 04:15AM EST    
Sorry, by ticked off, I meant that it was selected and actually on.  And yes, Netbios over tcp/ip can be a security risk.  Have you tried disconnecting the network from the Internet, disabling BlackICE and seeing if that makes a difference?  How does the cable modem assign an IP address to the NIC's?  And are the systems configured correctly for this?  I seem to be raising more questions than I am answering :(.

 
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 04:16AM EST    
BTW...you might like to look at the links on your page for this question also.  You have some local links towards the bottom of the page referring to files on your G: drive.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 01:01PM EST    
>>You have some local links towards the
>>bottom of the page referring to files
>> on your G: drive


Thank Microsoft for that!  FrontPage 2000 can be a real pain.

In any case, thanks...and I've fixed the page/links in quesiton.  Please try again.

You are missing alot if you haven't seen the links.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 01:02PM EST    
>>How does the cable modem assign an IP
>> address to the NIC's?


On my ISP's  side they are using a DHCP host to assign IPs.

 
Comment    
From: sidou
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 01:09PM EST    
Are all computers set to the same workgroup?

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 05:14PM EST    
>>Are all computers set to the same
>>workgroup?


Yes they are all set to workgroup "SOFTWORD"

 
Comment    
From: jvreeland
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 07:22PM EST    
are they switches or hubs, shitches need to be daisy chained with the cable in a specific opening on both.

I forget now but I think it is the top right one, on both.

check out the docs on your hubs make sure they dont need to be connected in some special way.  Can you telnet into them?

and oh yeah, if you temp. disable firewall software on all machines, does problem go away??

i didnt see where your ip address are

 
Comment    
From: jvreeland
 Date: Wednesday, March 01 2000 - 08:12PM EST    
are they switches or hubs, shitches need to be daisy chained with the cable in a specific opening on both.

I forget now but I think it is the top right one, on both.

check out the docs on your hubs make sure they dont need to be connected in some special way.  Can you telnet into them?

and oh yeah, if you temp. disable firewall software on all machines, does problem go away??

i didnt see where your ip address are

 
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 01:28AM EST    
One bit I can explain.  What shows in the Network Neighbourhood doesn't relate to the display from the Net Config command at a DOS prompt.  The Net Config command will just display the configuration information from the local system and doesn't reflect if the network is operating.  If you can't see the workgroup in the Entire Network from Network Neighbourhood it indicates that your network is not actually working.  The computers showing when you first open up the Neighbourhood will often be from a cache ie showing the last known systems on the Network.  They may or may not be accessable.  I would suggest making sure you can ping each machine to test if the networking protocols are available.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 01:42AM EST    
>>are they switches or hubs

They are Netgear hubs.

>>Can you telnet into them?

I never knew you could Telnet to a hub.  How does one do that since the hubs don't have IP addresses (that I know of)?

>>i didnt see where your ip address are

They are dynamically assigned by the DHCP server on my ISP's side.  You can only see them via WINIPCFG.





 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 01:48AM EST    
>>I would suggest making sure you can
>>ping each machine to test if the
>> networking protocols are available.


But does not pinging simply tell you that the TCP/IP protocol is working?  I am using TCP/IP only to connnect to the Internet.   I use NetBeui for the actual file and printer sharing in my LAN.

In any case, here's an example of the problem...

PC600 shows PC450 in the Network Neighborhood, however, if I double click on PC450 from PC600, I get an error "\\pc450 is not accessible.  The computer or sharename could not be found".   However, if I open up a DOS window on PC600 and ping to PC450's IP address, I get 0% packet loss, and quick responses each time.  So in summary, I can ping to PC450 from DOS, but I can't access PC450 from Windows 98 Network Neighborhood.


 
Comment    
From: Dassa
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 01:59AM EST    
So, tcp/ip is working fine.  At least that proves that a connection exists and that the systems can communicate on at least that level.  I would really like to know the results of disabling the Firewall on the systems.  This is the major suspect to my mind.  

 
Comment    
From: sidou
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 06:44AM EST    
I don4t know if it4s worth in dial-up networking, but in the LAN I work, we frequently need to run \WINDOWS\WINIPCFG.EXE and refresh all the resources, so the computer can get a new IP address.

Alse, we found that computers only show up in network neighbor if they have the file and printer sharing service for Ms-Clients.

 
Comment    
From: jvreeland
 Date: Thursday, March 02 2000 - 06:35PM EST    
Do all the ip's match up nice like they are all on same subnet?

NOTE: I saw this hub that had an ip, requried crossover cable to dasiy chain and you could telnet in to set it up.

It is almost as if your firewall thinks that the machines on your network are from the outside world.  Just like you can ping yahoo.com but can't browse shares.

I would like to see every machines ip address at the moment this error occured.

In your firewall software you must have settings where you can give the world access to everything, try that and then work your way back to being secure, somewhere along the way you will find the part of the firewall causeing problem.

PS: I'm currious as to why you dont have one machine connected to the www and have all others go through it.  There are some ok hardware soloutions for what you are doing which would allow you to give all your machines names ans static ip's. they are cheap too.

 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Friday, March 03 2000 - 02:03AM EST    
>>I would really like to know the
>>results of disabling the Firewall on
>> the systems.  


It makes no difference.  I removed BlackIce from the StartUp group on 3 of the PCs, rebooted them all, and PC200 and PC600 cannot access PC450 in Network Neighborhood after the reboot.  And yet PC450 can access all of the PCs on the network without any problem.



 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Friday, March 03 2000 - 02:09AM EST    
>>Do all the ip's match up nice like
>> they are all on same subnet?


PC600:
IP 208.xxx.198.22
Sub 255.255.255.0
Gateway 208.xxx.198.1

PC450:
208.xxx.198.24
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC200:
208.xxx.198.253
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC233:
208.xxx.199.31
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1


.....where "xxx" represents a number that is found in all of the addresses.



 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Friday, March 03 2000 - 02:12AM EST    
>>Do all the ip's match up nice like
>> they are all on same subnet?


PC600:
IP 208.xxx.198.22
Sub 255.255.255.0
Gateway 208.xxx.198.1

PC450:
208.xxx.198.24
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC200:
208.xxx.198.253
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1

PC233:
208.xxx.199.31
255.255.255.0
208.xxx.198.1


.....where "xxx" represents a number that is found in all of the addresses.



 
Comment  
From: Softtech
 Date: Friday, March 03 2000 - 02:12AM EST    
>>I'm currious as to why you dont have
>>one machine connected to the www and
>>have all others go through it.


Because I started with 2 PCs, and wired them together without a hub.  The I added a 3rd PC, and added a hub.  I understood that a proxy server should be one of the fastest PCs I have, therefore I wasn't about to give up my fastest PC to serve as just a proxy server.

In short, I had no reason to do anything different than the way I currently have things set up.

 

>>PC233:
>>208.xxx.199.31

>>I assume this was just a typo.  


No, there is no typo.  I made sure that what I typed was accurate.
 

0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>I believe, however, that Netbios over
>> TCP/IP was checked, so I don't know
>>as doing that would solve your problem.



I heard that using Netbios of TCP/IP is a security risk, therefore this option is intentionally turned off on all the PCs in question.
0
 
LVL 3

Expert Comment

by:Dassa
Comment Utility
The subnet mask doesn't match the IP addresses if that wasn't a typo.  You would need to use 255.255.0.0.
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>The subnet mask doesn't match the IP
>>addresses if that wasn't a typo.  You
>>would need to use 255.255.0.0.


Please remember that these numbers are dynamically assigned, and my ISP's DHCP server assigns the numbers.  I cannot change the addresses.  And I did not make a typo.  All of the subnets are 255.255.255.0

And...does this have anything to do with NetBEUI?   NetBEUI does not use IP addresses, does it?

I use TCP/IP to connect with the Internet.  I use NetBEUI for my LAN.


0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
Adjusted points to 150
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
To Rufus:

>The scenario I have seen involved
>computers which sporatically saw each
>other in network neighborhood, but
>even if they couldn't, doing a find on
>the netbios name would work.

That is exactly what happens at times.  The Network Neighborhood sometimes shows only one or two of the 4 PCs.  However, if you click Start > Find > Computers, often the system will find the other missing PCs!

But this does not guarantee that the found PC can be accessed.  Sometimes you get the "Unable to access..." error message on a "found" PC.
0
 
LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:Krishna081697
Comment Utility
have you tried ipx/spx with NetBEUI bound to that protocal? but NOT bound to tcp/ip?


If i were playing with your network, I would show up one day when no one was working unistall all protocals bound to your network cards... then install (in this order) ipx/spx, and then NetBEUI.

Then turn browse master OFF on all computers. all the machines will want to be rebooted do so.. but dont just reboot shutdown as well. Then restart them one by one... letting each one completly restart before starting the next... now see once all computers are share something on each and see if you can connect to each share from each computer. also in the network nahborhood window if all the computers dont show up try hitting "F5" a few times to force it to refreash that window. If this works or now, you will need internet access agian, so install tcp/ip on all of the computers agian and make sure to unbound NetBEUI from tcp/ip.

 
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>have you tried ipx/spx with NetBEUI
>>bound to that protocal?


No, I have not tried IPX/SPX.

I gave up on NetBEUI.  I uninstalled all NetBeui protocols on all 4 PCs.  Instead, I installed a router between the cable modem and the hub in the basement.  I have decided to go with pure TCP/IP for my LAN and my Internet access on the advice of a technician at NetGear.

Problem is...after I have now done this to 3 PCs on the LAN, (PC450, PC600, PC233) I have the problem all over again!  It would appear that NetBEUI is not the culprit.

PC600 can see and access PC450 & PC233

PC233 can see all, but only can access PC450.   pc600 is inaccesible from PC233.

PC450 can see all, but only can access PC233. PC600 is inaccesible from PC233.

And yet all 3 can ping each other with no problem.

What's going on here!?

See unzip.bizland.com/network/network.htm for diagram.
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>Then turn browse master OFF on all computers


Could you explain what "Browse master" does?
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
P.S. I have completely uninstalled BlackIce Defender firewall software from all the PCs.

I really don't believe this was the culprit, but since someone here thought it might, I have removed that possibility totally from the picture.
0
 
LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:Krishna081697
Comment Utility
Browse master- from my understanding is a feature to make it easeir for windows machines to find what other machines are on the network. when a machine initalise a network connection it searches for a master computer and will download a list of all computers on the network(windows machines with shares on em) if you turn it off each machine will probe the network and create its own list of computers on the network... or at least this has been my experence...
0
 
LVL 3

Expert Comment

by:Dassa
Comment Utility
Do we take it that the firewall did turn out to be the problem?  
0
 

Expert Comment

by:jvreeland
Comment Utility
>In your firewall software you must
>have settings where you can give the
>world access to everything, try that
>and then work your way back to being
>secure, somewhere along the way you
>will find the part of the firewall
>causeing problem.

once i was sure you had hubs not switches I was pretty sure based on what everyone else had asked your problem was subnet based or the firewall.
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
It appears that I "thought" I had uninstalled the BlackIce Defender firewall on all PCs after also removing NetBEUI.   Upon performing an ALT+CTL+DEL on the PC600, I discovered that the firewall was still being loaded at bootup on PC600.  All of the other PCs did indeed have the firewall uninstalled.  After discovering this, I finally did remove the firewall from PC600, and ever since things have been working just fine.

It makes little sense why the firewall would misbehave, and sometimes not allow other peers in, while at other times allow them access.  What was also misleading was that this "A sees B but B can't see A" behavior has happened in the past (pre-firewall days).

Moral of the story?  Trash the software firewalls and go with a hardware router/gateway that will serve as a firewall between the cable modem and your hub.
0
 

Expert Comment

by:jvreeland
Comment Utility
Didn't I tell you exactly this?
Why no points for me.

I quickly went past the obvious simple answers made sure you did have hubs etc... wanted to make sure hardware was set up right.

I asked why you did it this way and told you that you could get a cheap hardware firewall to do the same thing.

I was takeing it a step further and trying to figure out why the firewall would do this, this is another reason why i asked for ip and subnet info.

its only a measly 15 points so i should quit my bitchin but jeeze


"In your firewall software you must have settings where you can give the world access to everything, try that and then work your way back to being secure, somewhere along the way you will find the part of the firewall causeing problem.

PS: I'm currious as to why you dont have one machine connected to the www and have all others go through it.  There are some ok hardware soloutions for what you are doing which would allow you to give all your machines names ans static ip's. they are cheap too."
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>I asked why you did it this way


Because my ISP would constantly reply "Oh, you have a (hardware) firewall in place?  Oh, well we can't support that.  Goodbye <click>" whenever I needed tech support.  So I removed the Webramp 700S router/firewall and installed BlackIce Defender on all the PCs.

The reason why I did not believe BlackIce was the culprit was because all 4 PCs had BlackIce Defender installed and I figured that if it was a firewall issue then you would have consistent blockage where none of the PCs could access each other.  It makes no sense when the Black Ice Defender settings on all 4 PCs' were the same and yet A and B could access C, but C couldn't access A but could access B...etc.   IOW, I was seeing a randomness as to what PCs could access the other PCs on the network.  This made me doubt the firewall as the culprit.

As far as the 15 points are concerned...

Check out Home : Computers : Networking : Win95 : Q.10307194

I'll give you 50 points if you can followup with the Q.10307194 question.

Thanks.

0
 

Expert Comment

by:jvreeland
Comment Utility
too late already answered but I can tell you this.

If you think webramp is going to keep people out guess agian.  it will stop only beginer hackers.

Wingate is even easily hacked.

You should be safe though because even webramp will make a big enough hurdle that will turn away hackers.  There are tooo many other places to hack with less protection than you have.

You biggest fear right now would be a DOS attack.  It would be very very easy for somebody to take down your internet access.

http://rootshell.com/docs/cracker.txt
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
>>If you think webramp is going to keep
>>people out guess agian.  


Let's say this is your LAN...four Win 98 PCs, hubbed together, with the hub connected to a cable modem.

What would you do to increase security if this were your network?
0
 

Expert Comment

by:jvreeland
Comment Utility
http://www.multitech.com/products/ProxyServer/


http://www.cai.com/solutions/enterprise/etrust/


http://www.cai.com/products/guardit.htm


This all used at once would be nice.
im not positive if etrust and guardit will work at same time or not but they have similar features.  Guardit can help with a dos attack.  The hardware is a litle box i have used myself and like.  It is not "hack proof", but it is not well known so not too many people trying to exploit it.


This is only recomended for non-sensitive information.

If you were a bank or something then id tell you to call cisco and start looking at 2 different hardware firewalls.
0
 

Author Comment

by:Softtech
Comment Utility
GuardIt does not support Windows 98 PCs, so scratch that one off the list.  And GuardIt is software, not hardware.  Or at the link you provided shows no pictures of any hardware "little box".

eTrust (software) seems to be overkill for a LAN of 4 PCs.  Isn't it for the enterprise and costs $$$$$$$$ ?

And lastly, the Multi-Tech Proxy Server looks like it is nothing but Multi-Tech's version of Ramp's Webramp 700S.  What does Multi-Tech's router have that Webramp 700S doesn't?

So I really don't understand your reply.

0
 

Expert Comment

by:jvreeland
Comment Utility
i just like the multi-tech better. just my opinion thats all.

i have not tried sonicwall but it looks cool.


like i said the fact that you have webramp will prob do.  You had no luck with blackIce.  We use CA's products where I work and are happy with the company.  You can still have the software firewall as a backup if you find one that will work and not give you problems like blackice did.


here some more links.  :-)






http://x32.deja.com/viewthread.xp?AN=594889840&search=thread&svcclass=dncurrent&ST=PS&CONTEXT=952734942.1262354479&HIT_CONTEXT=952734942.1262354479&HIT_NUM=6&REDO=1&recnum=%3cMPG.13306d1b59033c2c989a0f@flamebuoyant.ekahuna.com%3e%231/1&group=comp.dcom.xdsl&frpage=getdoc.xp&back=clarinet






http://www.sonicwall.com/Corporate_Info/press_release_archive/3Com_pr.html






http://xforce.iss.net/search.php3?type=2&pattern=web+ramp






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