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asp vs java!

Posted on 2000-03-23
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I am proficent in asp ( mcp in site server ) IIS, MSSQL, asp as well as c++, mfc..  I recently left a company doing strictly msft solutions with the above after about a year( that's right, no com objects - thats why i left ) & got a job with a company that does all java!  Now I hear guys are getting $80 hour for basic asp..  I was thinking java was the wave of the future & the best thing to be in now..  I would love some comments on reasons to stay in msft asp land or to work with OO & JAVA!

thanks
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Question by:xjeffk
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by:mgfranz
ID: 2650605
$$$  The reason I know of why ASP programers are in more demand that Java programers is that the VB interface and the COM objects ASP allows use of.

My two cents...
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by:jamestthomas
ID: 2650659
With EJB defined, JSP's, regular beans and servelets along with tools like IBM's WebSphere, Java is growing fast Scalability issues with a proprietary solution like Microsofts MTS/NT have never completely been resolved. I believe Java is here to stay and the expertise in it will grow and demand top dollar in comming years.  Every company I have seen the last 2 years has made a strategic decision that relies more heavily on a java and uses Unix servers or another alternative to NT.  EJB does offer the possibility of statefull objects as well and is much more 0bjectified then the sprawling asp code that has been proliferated.  I am re tooling myself.  Good Luck!
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by:dejavu007
ID: 2650904
boss if anyone knows where i can get paid 80$ and hour please let me know i am really interested. looking for opportunities

ciao

dejavu007
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by:CoolAss
ID: 2650907
Java is crap. It had potential (perhaps it still does) but it offers no advantages over the world of COM. Things like COM+/DCOM are the real wave of the future.

I like to envision a world with completely distributed applications, with their components being pulled from places all over the net. No need for upgrades or patches since you always are using the most up-to-date software.

As far as ASP/COM vs Java Servlet stuff... I have seen a couple of benchmarks (looking for them, I thought I had them bookmarked... arg) that shows that the JODBC stuff performs like crap next to ADO 2.5 / RDO.

Sun had their chance to make Java the standard, but failed. It will always be there for cool embed systems and the occasional chat applet, but it is no longer at the head of the pack.

I run a small web development firm, and I examined many different development environments and technologies to make sure that I didn't start a company that would be using technologies that were doomed from the start. My company uses a lot of different stuff, but most of the really cool / scalable / fast stuff we do is in ASP / COM. I am constantly impressed, and only occasionaly frustrated, but what msft has done for the industry.

I say, long live ASP.
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by:dejavu007
ID: 2650909
boss if anyone knows where i can get paid 80$ and hour please let me know i am really interested. looking for opportunities

ciao

dejavu007
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by:imurphy76
ID: 2651004
I work for a company that has been doing pure ASP for the last several years.  Finally, they are coming to the realization that ASP alone will not handle the demands of a high traffic website.  As far as which is better, JavaBeans or MTS COM components, I have yet to see any real proof.  If anybody has some links to some sites that compare the two, please post them here.  I will follow this thread with interest.  Anybody have any opinions on XML scriptlets and how they match up against EJB and COM components?

-- Ian --
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by:xjeffk
ID: 2651117
excellent!  Thanks for the interest.. keep 'em coming..
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by:BigRat
ID: 2651201
Actually COM is the most complicated crap ever invented, DCOM twice as bad. Java is a real cool language BUT prefabricated COM objects scripted together with VBA in ASP technology holds its own on smallish web sites against EJB (also very complicated) scripted with JavaScript and somebodys web server. You can find plenty of information readily availbe about the entire suite (bookware/web sites/etc). The competition does not seem to realize that freely available information about how their product works is the real killer as regards to usage.
   The real war is going to be fought in bringing local processing power to the browser. Here we want to process data as if two-tier client-server but actually with three-tier. MS has almost won the browser war (who else has an easily installable and widely available desk top?) and its ActiveX components (also COM objects) integrate very well without any extra run-time system (its all in the OS! MTS and COM+ with W2K fill in some nasty holes left by Microsofts hotch-potch development.
   Recently looking at XML as a way to represent and process data, I was amazed by so many people wanting me to write application specific code against DOM or SAX parsers in Java! Script it is the word! MS will certainly do this. They'll allow you to send the data to the browser where you can interact with the XML DOM model to modify the data, SOAP it back again and put it away in a database governed by the DTD! (Rat's humble opinion).
   And don't forget, there are over 3 million Visual Basic programmers (who also can program ASP,Access,Word,Excel and so on)
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by:CoolAss
ID: 2651593
ASP/COM already has complete XML support built in... ADO 2.5 does XML justice, imho.

As far as COM being complicated crap... how so? In fact, I would say the design that went into COM is considerable more eligant and full of foresight than Java.
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by:imurphy76
ID: 2651624
I do agree with CoolAss that COM is not difficult.  Using Visual Basic 5 and 6, I've built small COM components before and found it to be quite a simple process.

-- Ian --
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by:clockwatcher
ID: 2651634
I don't really think it's an issue of ASP or java.  The issue comes down to the server OS--  Do you want to trust your business to an NT (or W2K) server?  Many companies for whatever reason don't.

Microsoft has to somehow get over the reputation (deserved or not) of producing products which are bug-filled and non-scalable.  I don't see them doing it.

I also don't see either technology up and disappearing overnight so I think you're safe with either.  Money wise, in my experience, the pay is pretty much equivalent.  It's the field (web development) that's pulling down the money-- not the particular technology you happen to be developing in.
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by:clockwatcher
ID: 2651648
BTW, anyone that says java is crap hasn't done very much development in java.
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by:jamestthomas
ID: 2651759
I agree with you clockwatcher on all counts.  Java is certainly not crap.  It is an incredible object oriented platform that has gone further in the short time that is has been around then anyone could have conceived of.  I have made a decent living in ASP and VB but I know its not the real stuff.
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by:jamestthomas
ID: 2651771
One final note, Com and DCom work but only in a Microsoft environment.  And yes, their products are bug filled.  Not only that they have huge footprints. Just look at how many posts we get on trying to get interdev to notice the server or to debug.
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by:CoolAss
ID: 2651855
Jamestthomas -

Big footprints? Sure, if you write them in VB... in C++, they are smaller than Java.

Bug filled? Perhaps... but have you used Win2k? It's as stable as a rock...

Clockwatcher, you're right... java isn't crap, but it's certainly not what it could be. Sun has some lofty goals, few of which they have met. Personally, java offers very little of the benefits that Sun has long professed.

And as far as NT being unreliable... you're right, it's not as reliable as Win2k, but it's far from unstable. I have several large NT servers for an intranet application I setup a few years ago. The servers have as much load as Slashdot, and haven't been down once. Not once in nearly 3 years. They also have yet to deny anybody service... as slashdot (which runs on Linux, but that's another matter) does frequently each day.

I think it is very much about ASP/COM vs Java. You can have a fast, stable OS... and the way it servs it's content can cause the whole shabang to come crashing down under load. Conversely, the OS can do the same.

Again... imho, ASP/COM/SQL Server/IIS is one of the most stable (at least under Win2k), fast, and scalable environments available.

Java does, of course... as many languages do, have the potential to be great. But as is now, no thanks.
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clockwatcher earned 50 total points
ID: 2652298
CoolAss,

I didn't say whether or not I thought that MS' reputation was deserved.  I'm simply saying that the reputation exists and while it continues to exist companies are going to be leery of selecting MS as their server platform of choice.  Perhaps Win2k will turn MS' reputation around.  I personally have my doubts-- it's too late for many companies, they're not going to change their minds.  Maybe you've experienced something different, but most of the companies that I've dealt with don't count on MS servers to run mission-critical applications.  Maybe they'll start, but I don't really see any reason for them to-- Is their unix or vms box that has been "stable as a rock" for the last 10 years going to suddenly not be "stable as a rock" now that Win2k is out?

As far as the java language goes, whether it's met Sun's goals or not doesn't matter to me the developer.  It more than meets my requirements as a useable tool which is something that I can't say (but wish I could) about the ASP scripting languages.  Sure, I can extend them through COM, but why should I have to do that at every turn-- Write some ASP code.  Write up a COM object to do the five line task that is missing in VBScript's functionality.  Write some more ASP, add to my ActiveX another menial task that the scripting language again can't handle.  I mean come on.  I even remembering answering a question for you regarding making a HTTP request without the use of a component.  IMO, the scripting languages dependence upon COM for basic functionality goes too far and is in many ways one of ASP's biggest weaknesses.

>> Java does, of course... as many languages do, have the potential to be great. But as is now, no thanks.

Where exactly does java fail you?  Especially in comparison to the other languages around?  I don't see it at all and consider java one of the stronger programming languages out there today.  Actually, its built-in support for networking make it one of the easier languages to produce ActiveX components commonly used in ASP.  Internet-based components (HTTP, POP3, SMTP, IMAP, IRC, FTP, Telnet, Whois, DNS lookups, etc.) are a simple matter to put together with java.  I really think its probably just a matter that you haven't done much programming in it.

The jakarta project for Apache is going to make JSP and servlet support the norm for Apache.  As that starts to happen, you're going to start to see quite a lot of opportunities for JSP and servlet programmers in the very near future.
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by:RBertora
ID: 2652578
Well in my oppinion there is only one measure of success in this world, MONEY.
(as you indicated in your question)

To see the most successfull companies you look at the stock market and see who has the bigger graph (simplistic view).

If you want to do a similar thing with a computer language, Just have a look at the most active topic areas on this site(languages only)

Visual Basic.
Delphi.
Access.
Java.
Asp.
C++.
JavaScript.

Truth be told there is little that seperates Java and ASP in terms on the next big thing. Personally I have picked my horse and am sticking to it (ASP).

Cheers,
Rob;-)
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by:bculver98
ID: 2652849
The beauty behind ASP is that is a quick development language.  Yo can take a VB programmer and have him/her code ASP in a day or two.  Its all server side and allows lots of possibilities through MS objects.  Its very easy to develop with and quick.

Java is not as easy as ASP.  Java is not as secure as ASP unless you move onto Servlets and such.  Java can have more security but it has to be coded for.  Java can be decompiled as well.  Java unlike ASP is extremely customizable.  

Both languages have their pros and cons, personally I chose to learn about both.  I code whatever is asked from me.  I think ASP is cheaper for companies desiring quick development.  Java is great for companies seeking to provide specific (not simple database queries and manipulation) functionality.

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by:xjeffk
ID: 2653298
excellent ideas from all..  cheers
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by:xjeffk
ID: 2653299
This question has a deletion request Pending
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by:jamestthomas
ID: 2653540
This question no longer is pending deletion
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by:jamestthomas
ID: 2653541
I think clockwatcher has made some great points here.  I have to say I agree with his assessment whole heartedly.
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by:jamestthomas
ID: 2653548
I would consider awarding clockwatcher some points as he has written an excellant non biased view that is very informational.  His last comment is to the point with allot of wisdom.  That's an answer if I ever saw one!
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by:xjeffk
ID: 2653595
you got it!
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by:xjeffk
ID: 2653698
points awarded, right?  thanks again!
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by:BigRat
ID: 2655000
I heartily agree that clockwatcher should get the points. But one last squeek.
   As someone who has written COM objects in C++ before Wizards, and has looked into doing distributed work with DCOM (and through firewalls!) I still stand by that COM/DCOM is complicated crap. Java with Corba is a real winner. BUT, and its a big but, one needs to move the app to the browser without miles of complicated and heavy run-time and Java/Corba is not the solution at the moment since a) Microsoft in IE does not support Corba and b) the other browsers are a little behind in HTML4 standards, and c) Microsoft owns the desk-top.
   So that leaves us with MS solutions which means ActiveX for local processing and ASP for the server. Furthermore the skill level required for most of MS stuff is actually rather low. I admit it is a bit of "fiddle and fumble" but I have seen amazing things done by non-programmers (ponytails) in Access, Excel, Word and so on. I even have to face it: VB 6 makes my difficult acquired COM knowledge ancient! The Rat is virtually redundant!
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by:clockwatcher
ID: 2655621
BigRat,

But that's exactly why java is so attractive as a server-side solution.  Client-side is a completely different issue and while MS owns the desktop they unfortunately don't quite own the browser--  how much simpler my life would be if they did. :-)
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by:bculver98
ID: 2656445
Woohoo good stuff here  :)
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by:BigRat
ID: 2656860
clockwatcher: The point is I cannot replace the two-tier application which I currently have with a browser based three tier architecture unless
   a) the local screen/mask/form usage is as good as if not better than before
and
   b) its cheaper to implement and maintain.
The latter point is very important since the app currently is shipped to lots of customers.
   I have looked into alternative three-tier technologies and they boil down to Corba or DCOM. Both demand that I design and freeze an application split in the two tier model. The Java/Corba/EJB/UML model says that I should put business objects into the middle tier and invest heavily into making them reliable. These are NOT easy to program (Java/EJB/Corba or COM+ in C++). I should then use applets or DHTML locally to talk to my objects. This is all heavy installation and maintainance in a non-trivial technology. Interestingly enough it is my business objects which I change the most since businesses change. (Customers always have exceptions to Rats Rules!) I seem to have spent the last thirty years adding tables and fields to relational databases and buggering around with silly rules about what happens when, where and why. Presentation seems always a matter of taste and I can almost always argue that point away.
   What I like about asp is that I can stick complex heavy code which changes little (the infrastructure - database access, mail access, credit card checking and the like) into C++ (now VB) COM objects and script the rest together. Minor changes to the rules ("in our company we do that on .. and ..") can be changed by my mice virtually in the field.
   What I particuarly like about Microsoft's approach is the next generation of sticking the data into databases in XML, extracting it with XML-QL, throwing it at the browser which either by ActiveX or whatever allows sorting, presentation, editing and SOAPing it back up to the server where I validate and write back into the database. If the customer wants additional data (often trivial additions) you just edit the DTD and possibly and XSL sheet which might have to generate an HTML form or page for printing. (Oh when are we going to get HTML enabled printers so that I can just chuck the data at them and the print it without all this PDF, enhanced Metafile crap!)?
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by:clockwatcher
ID: 2657237
BigRat,

Assuming you start with a clean slate and don't already have business logic tied up into COM objects, I don't really see what you gain by using ASP over JSP.  Sure, it's a different story if you've already got the COM objects written.  But, assuming you're starting from scratch, what are you gaining from COM that you couldn't have gotten from CORBA or EJB.

I can see your point if you're talking strictly about a user base for which the browser platform is fixed at MSIE 4+.  But for right now, if you're talking about the users of the internet as your client base, I don't see any point in even going into ActiveX at the client level.  Unfortunately, there are still two browser platforms out there-- which bring with them differing DHTML models with quite big differences in capability.  If you really want a presentation layer that's useable on the internet your only options are lowest common denominator (in either DHTML or JVM) or multiple versions tailored to each possible platform which becomes a nightmare to maintain.

As far as XML goes, again I don't see what you're losing by going with java.
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by:BigRat
ID: 2661599
I'm trying to look into the future. And for this purpose a "least-common-denominator" strategy will leave me way behind the market if somebody else picks the winner.
   First I distriubte my app from two-tier to three on the intranet (formerly called the LAN) and then on the internet. The Internet gives me world-wide access without having to build up a company network.
   I want to script the business rules in the middle tier using bought-in/house-built/free components to do the heavy work. (Eg: like an ADO encapsulation). So far so good. No real need to be vendor/technology specific.
   The real problem occurs when I try to replace those complex screens we had on terminals (or with many widgets on Windows) into the browser. There are, as I see it, two possibilities :- Java VM where I transfer control to an Applet which encodes all the functionality, or ActiveX embedded into HTML pages. The Java VM needs to talk to the server in the same way as the browser so that I see no difference in processing applet requests from form requests. The ActiveX components need to do the same. Technically both systems could do this, but who will do it successfully? Java started off with RMI, then said RMI would use IIOP and now we can get CORBA in Java, but CORBA doesn't provide a "scripting" environment since it makes server-side procedure calls.
   I think coolass has recognized this, the non-Microsoft alternative is too complex at the moment. ASP might be crap but it works reasonably well. In fact if Microsoft updated the scripting language (exception handling amongst other things) it might just be come unstopable.
   As far as XML is concerned Bill loves it.
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by:CoolAss
ID: 2662041
BigRat,

While I tend to disagree with your "ASP might be crap" comment :-) I do realize the delemas people face, much like the ones you are talking about.

Have you looked at ASP 3.0? The VBScript 5.0 included with it is excellent. It does error handling (something that I agree ASP 2.0 did about as well as the Macintosh does at being stable or as well as Janet Reno does at being pretty) MUCH better, supporting all of the lovely tools that VB gives you. You could always use Javascript, which has the C style try/catch handling... but I have never been a fan of that.

Another thing we need to address is the coolness of Windows Scripting Host. I LOVE this stuff. I have never seen something so useful (in Windows at least) and so easy to implement. The best thing is, thanks to it's COM parents, it can be used directly in ASP, as well as to be used as an awesome debugging environment for full fledge COM. Since you never have to recompile WSH stuff, you can make changes to your hearts content and see the results instantly.

And with ADO 2.5's integration with XML (using XML with the equiv of detached recordsets all but kills the need for using the FSO to store temp data that needs to be somewhat persistant) make ASP all that much more cool.

As ASP evolves, the complaints I have heard so far have been going the way of the Dodo... I think ASP has a bright future, whereas I really can't say the same for Java, at least not on the web.

I see Java as having an awesome future in embeded systems, not web applications. IMHO of course.
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by:xjeffk
ID: 2662124
I have not heard any mention of java servlets - What I like about Servlets is a clear division of your presentation layer ( html/javascript) and your buisness logic where you can apply some OO  

 
Dont know about asp3 and xml  - sounds good.. still, jsp looks to offer a seamless interface to the servelt which would be pretty sweet..
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by:CoolAss
ID: 2662191
xjeffk,

I mentioned servlets in my first post, and you're right, the speration of output and code is good.

That's why I like COM/ASP, not just straight ASP. Also, ASP+ (the next version of ASP) will have a similar way of sperating these two components.
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