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Installing both IDE and SCSI hard drives

Posted on 2000-04-21
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Last Modified: 2010-04-27
I have an Adaptec 2940UW SCSI controller on which I've daisy chained several devices--three HD (3GB, 1GB, 4GB) and a NEC CD ROM (Model CDR 1810A). So I just bought this Iomega internal IDE Zip Drive I need to install, and I also have this Quantum Fireball EX 3.4 IDE drive I bought for another system sitting around unused.

I have an unused secondary IDE slot on the motherboard. The primary IDE slot is occupied by my AIWA Bolt Backup Tape Drive. So I'm thinking, why not slave the tape backup off the IDE hard drive and install the Zip drive on the secondary IDE controller slot? I need a few more MB hard disk space, and I really don't want to bother upgrading one of the existing HDs right now...

So what's the trick, if any? How do I configure the Quantum HD so its recognized by the system? Your tips and pointers are welcome.

Thanks.

Redfox
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Question by:redfox072197
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24 Comments
 
LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:Ted22
ID: 2737519
I've used ide and scsi together. If you configure it the way you discribed it should work. If you make it master on the primary and select it in the bios you can boot it. scsi drives should see it.
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Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2737999
The first SCSI drive is configured as the boot disk. Would setting the primary IDE HD to master cause it to be the boot? Or is this what I set using BIOS?

Thanks.
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LVL 12

Expert Comment

by:Otta
ID: 2738009
> what's the trick, if any?

None, really.
Just connect the IDE devices, and try it.
The worst that can happen is that your computer will start, but it will try to "boot" from one of the IDE devices.

Enter BIOS-setup, and check/change the boot-order (newest BIOSes can boot from a ZIP drive) and choose either 'A:/SCSI/IDE' or 'ZIP/SCSI/IDE', so that your computer won't try to boot from the IDE hard-drive.

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LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:kannabis
ID: 2738096
The only time you'll run into a problem with this config is if you want to install windows NT.  It's too stupid to let you install on a SCSI drive when you have IDE because it always picks the IDE as the primary bus.  Other than that there should be no problems
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LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:micro66
ID: 2738111
Sometimes, even those late-model BIOS's with good intentions don't seem to be able to keep an IDE drive from booting first, it seems.  One trick I heard of was to FDISK the IDE drive (or, better, to use Partition Magic -- a GREAT product -- if you have info on the drive you want to keep) to make the entire IDE drive an "Extended" partition.  Without a bootable partition, and as an extended partition, it will not be detected as the C: drive (in fact, it'll be detected as the last drive in the chain after all the physical drives have been "lettered").  On those BIOS's that don't accept the boot setup you want, this may permit the SCSI boot drive to be able to do its trick first.  I've not actually tried this, but if I'd known of it before I configured my SCSI system, I'd have given it a shot.  I couldn't get the IDE drive out of the boot loop at all, so I gave up and removed it.  Supposedly, this trick also permits adding a physical drive to the system without changing a bunch of drive letters.  Let us know how you make out, if you give it a try.
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Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2738140
Hmmm, I happen to have Partition Magic sitting at my left elbow. It--or rather my inattention to detail--got me in a lot of trouble 8 months ago when I forgot about the false end-of-sector warning caused by Partition Magic (as I recall it) when running Norton Disk Doctor. I let NDD do its thing and really screwed things up royally.

Ended up formatting the HD and starting from scratch. To save HD space went to 4MB sector size (as I vaguely recall) which Win95 OSR2 supports. So I've just stared at my Partition Magic CD ROM, wondering whether I should take it to the shotgun range as an expensive version of a clay pigeon or what...

I've got to go out and replace a failing power supply (fan died), and after I install the new power supply I'll connect the IDE drive and see what happens. Watch for details later today (after 2pm PST).
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LVL 63

Expert Comment

by:SysExpert
ID: 2738714
I doubt that having the disk recognized will be a problem, But One more thing to worry about, is that when you add the disk, all your drive letters will be rearranged, if your using W9x , this can cause a problem , NT you can arrange to what you want.
A way around this is to format the IDE drive with NO boot partition - just extended partition with logical drives with in it.
I hope this helps.
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LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:Ted22
ID: 2739380
I didn't read other comments. No, making it master would not make it the boot device. Your bios should let you select the boot device.

A C CDROM EXT

Be sure you don't select C as the first boot device.If your using windowsNT you don't have to have the drive in the bios at all. NT will see it. Where you see the ide hard drives just select none.
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Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2745611
Hmmm, having a bit of a problem here. I hooked up the IDE drive to the secondary IDE port. The HD spins up but is not recognized by the OS. Is there a BIOS setting I've missed?

Thanks.
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LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:micro66
ID: 2745877

Originally, you were planning to slave the tape drive on the primary, making the hard drive the master.  The ZIP was on the secondary.  What is your configuration now?  Check that everybody has a master/slave partner on the channels, rather than fighting each other for superiority.  Also, some devices just don't work well as slave, although hard drives aren't usually the finicky ones.  Make sure your jumpers are all set properly.

You said it isn't recognized by the OS, but, more important, is it recognized in the BIOS?  Then, the next question would be, have you fdisk'd it, partitioned, and formatted?  (Easier is to get familiar with the Partition Magic you mentioned.)
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Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2746454
Let's see, I put the Zip drive on the primary IDE port by itself. I put the HD on the secondary HD as primary, and the AIWA Bolt tape drive as slave. Haven't got the HD formatted yet, but the BIOS is recognizing it. So as soon as I can stop working and reboot, I'll try FDISKing the Quantum HD.

Thanks again.
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LVL 63

Expert Comment

by:SysExpert
ID: 2753329
Your OS will not recognize it until it is partitioned at least ,and preferably formatted also.
Have fun !!

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Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2753363
Well, good news, sort of. Got the HD working. The BIOS detects the HD, Zip drive, and tape drive. But when Windows loads, the tape drive is not accessible. Doing a Find Hardware yields nothing. Any bright ideas? BTW, I didn't end up using Partition Magic. Putting the HD on the secondary IDE slave port eliminated the problem I was having.

Thanks.
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:micro66
ID: 2753549
At last report you had the HD as master on the secondary IDE channel and the tape drive as slave.  You now got the HD working as slave.  Make sure the tape is master on the same channel.  Again, remember that you have to have master/slave assigned to those on the same channel.

After verifying that relationship, double check ribbon cables with red stripe to pin 1.

After it's recognized, check for conflicts in Device Manager.

Almost there.
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Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2753626
Micro66:

I just double checked the jumpers on both the tape drive and the HD. They are correct. I also verified that the ribbon cable is correctly attached at pin 1. The Tape Drive appears in Device Manager as a device under Tape Drives. No conflicts are shown. The tape drive is getting power--it does recognize when a tape is inserted.

You wrote:

"Again, remember that you have to have master/slave assigned to those on the same channel. "

What's that mean exactly?

Thanks.
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LVL 12

Expert Comment

by:Otta
ID: 2753656
> "Again, remember that you have to have master/slave assigned to those
on the same channel"
> What's that mean exactly?

Two IDE devices connected to the same ribbon-cable need to be configured, by means of "jumpers" on each device, to define which of the two is the "master" device and which is the "slave" device, so that the motherboard can send I/O commands to either the "master" device or to the "slave" device.

Get a magnifying glass, and a good flashlight, and take a _CLOSE_ look for those jumpers (usually "black").
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LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:micro66
ID: 2753658
Just meant to check the master/slave relationships whenever any two devices are on the same IDE channel (in case you decided to change things around again).  That's all.

So it recognizes the tape drive in Device Manager, there are no conflicts, and it does recognize when a tape is inserted.  When you say the tape drive isn't accessible, you must mean that the backup software doesn't recognize it.  (Your checks so far verify that the hardware is recognized by the OS.)

One more hardware check:  in Device Manager, look to see if you have any other devices that relate to the tape drive (such as tape drive subsystem or other devices).  Anything that fits, plus the tape drive itself, check Properties and ensure it says it's "Working Properly."  Also check the other tabs, if there are any in properties to see if there are any options that need checking or unchecking to make sense.

Then, assuming the above doesn't yield any changes, you might consider uninstalling your backup software, then reinstalling it so it has a chance to detect the device.  Some backup software is flaky in that regard.

Hope this helps.
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LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:kannabis
ID: 2753856
You might also want to check if a specific driver for your tape is needed.  I have an Agfa SCSI scanner that is in device manager coming up fine etc,. but won't do a damn thing unless there is a specific driver for it loaded.

Make sure that's not the cause of the problems

0
 

Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2754831
Everything in Device Manager et. al. looks fine. Yes, I meant the backup software does not find the tape device.

That was what I thought I'd try next, to reinstall the Backup tape software. We'll see what happens...

Later...
0
 

Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2754840
Great, now Windows is getting all flaky on me... Had to reboot 3 times and hold down the SHIFT key to bypass some startup programs to get it to run. Now it won't let me run Windows Explorer. Get a Blue Screen, fortunately can ESC out of it. Something is definately wrong. I think I'm going to restore my registry files of a couple of days ago and see if that helps.

Life is lovely...
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LVL 63

Expert Comment

by:SysExpert
ID: 2755306
Make sure you uninstall before doing a re-install !!
Also it may be agood idea :
Download the Startup COP a free pcmag utility from
                       http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/pctech/content/18/08/ut1808.001.html

 Run it and it will show you everything that is listed in all the possible startup
places, and allow you to disable things one at a time until the problem is eliminated.

Another thing is to rename the autoexec and config.sys to *.old, this will prevent any DOS drivers from loading, since they are not normally needed in Win95/w98 normally, except In dos mode.
You can leave any Set commands or sound card initialization programs though.
0
 

Author Comment

by:redfox072197
ID: 2757137
As NASA might say, "We have liftoff!"

Funny thing, the Seagate Backup Exec displays two tape devices with the same name in its selection list of devices (along with the ZIP drive). The first does not work, but the second does.

Restored the registry from 3 days ago.  Windows rebooted without a problem whatsoever. (We'll see if it lasts.) Tucked the HD and tape drive which had been hanging like spilled guts outside the computer case while I got everything working back inside. Screwed them in place, that's how much confidence I have things are working ok. Might even put the cover back on.

With 3 SCSI HD, 1 IDE HD, a Zip drive, a CD ROM drive, a tape drive, a floppy disk drive, a network card, UMAX SCSI  Scanner card, Gamecard 3 joystick controller card, SoundBlaster PCI128 sound card, Diamond Stealth II S220 Turbo Video Card, I have actaully quite nearly filled the tower case I bought in 1994 (having since replaced _everything_ inside, including the power supply this week. All I need now is a CD Burner for the one opening left and something for the remaining PCI slot. Then it'll be time for a new system.

So let's prayerfully close the books on this one, thanks Micro66. You should get the credit for this one. Reply and I'll accept it.
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LVL 63

Expert Comment

by:SysExpert
ID: 2757279
Sounds good. Enjoy.
Now how about distributing the points ?
You can split them up by leaving a request in community support- see the link at the bottom of each page.
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LVL 4

Accepted Solution

by:
micro66 earned 400 total points
ID: 2757702
Hey, glad we could help!
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