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20 MB insufficient memory to run juno.exe?

Posted on 2000-04-27
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Number 1 son has an old 486 running win3.1 with an 18 MB hard drive and 20 MB of RAM. He wants to get onto Juno, and I found an old Juno disk that claims it will run on 3.1. When he tries to run Juno.exe he gets an error message that says "insufficient memory to run this program". If I exit to DOS and do the mem command, it tells me he has about 18.5 MB free; however, if I check it under windows in a DOS window, it says he only has 1.5 MB free. The mem command also indicates he should be able to run a 500kb program and Juno.exe is only slightly over 300. It seems impossible that windows 3.1 alone could be eating up 18.5 of his 20 MB, particularly when his startup group is empty and he is therefore running nothing in the background. Since going to win9x, I've forgotten most of what I knew about win3.x, so I need some guidance here.
TIA,
Joe
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Question by:EvilEye24
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by:fremsley
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1. The DOS box under windows will only get a part of the total memory, in your case it is configured to see only 1.5MB

2. The 'not enough memory' message could be caused by low conventional memory. Windows uses a lot of conventinal memory to communicate with DOS. Try freeing up some conventional memory below 640K, by either removing unneeded DOS drivers from config.sys and autoexec.bat. Try to load as many drivers and TSRs into upper memory blocks.
 
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by:EvilEye24
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It will be a few days before I can try this and get back. As I said, I feel like a 3.1 newbie, because I've been away from it for several years. If I remember correctly, I can open autoexec.bat and config.sys from file manager and edit from there, right? or do I have to use the edit command from DOS?
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by:fremsley
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> I can open autoexec.bat and config.sys from file manager and edit from there, right? or do I have to use the edit command from DOS?

If you double-click autoexec.bat it will propably be executed, but you can start notepad and open the files from there. I hadn't touched 3.1 for a couple of years, too. Last week I gave my disk a small DOS partition and installed it again -- I couldn't believe how fast it was on a modern PC.
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by:cookre
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When you get a chance, post copies of your config.sys and autoexec.bat.  We'll also need a list of any add-in cards you may have (e.g., network cards and SCSI controllers).

As fremsley mentioned, Win3 is real touchy when it comes to conventional memory.  The objective here is to optimize the use of the first 1M of RAM by moving as much as we can into upper memory (the area between 640K and 1M), thereby maximizing the available conventional RAM (the area below 640K).

Oops, almost forgot, we'll also need to know which version of DOS you're running (do a VER from a DOS prompt).
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by:oldgreyguy
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It may be that the MEMORY that is being referred to is DISK SPACE, at the C:\ type CHKDSK and enter, look for the line with available on it.

also check your temp variable, go to that directory and delete all of the *.TMP files

If you are running DOS version 6.XX, at the C:\ type MEMMAKER /BATCH and enter, let it do its thing, this may organize your RAM memory mo better
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by:dbrunton
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I think oldgrey's comment about the disk space is correct.  You are seeing disk space free not memory free.  I cannot see how DOS would show 1.5 Mb of memory free.

Go as per comments about freeing up low memory and see if you can gain more memory by tinkering with the config.sys settings.

Remember if using DOS 5.0 or greater commands like

device=himem.sys
device=emm386.exe noeme
devicehigh=mouse.sys
loadhigh=mouse.com
dos=high,umb

Another possiblity is to tell Windows that you do not need a swap file.  Someone please comment on how to do this because my 3.1 machine is not running.  This will free up hard disk space which could be a problem that Windows may moan about.
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by:kayton
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Swap file in in Main/Control panel/386/virtual memory
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by:EvilEye24
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OK-spent a little time at my son's place.
First of all, I misread file manager. It's not an 18MB hard drive; it's 832352 KB with 531344 free. So hard drive space is not an issue.

Here's autoexec.bat:
@ECHO off
PATH = C:\MOUSE;%PATH%;C:\MENU
PROMPT $p$g
set mouse=c:\fellowes
LH /L:0 c:\fellowes\felmouse
LH /L:1,27952 c:\dos\MSCDEX.EXE /D:SONY_000
LH /L:0;1,43920 /S C:\WINDOWS\SMARTDRV.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\SMARTDRV.EXE
PATH = C:\MENU;C:\WINDOWS;C:\DOS;C:\WP51
LH /L:1,63088 vsafe
rem msav
SET TEMP=C:\temp
PATH %PATH%;C:\MSC16
SET msc16=C:\MSC16
C:\MSC16\m16init /b
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
SET DIR=DIR /P
REM Next several lines are for Menu Works
SET MENU=C:\MENU
MENU C:\MENU\MENU.MDF
C:\QUICKEN\BILLMIND C:\QUICKEN /p

and here's config.sys:
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\SMARTDRV.EXE /DOUBLE_BUFFER
DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE NOEMS
BUFFERS=50,0
FILES=100
DOS=UMB
LASTDRIVE=Z
FCBS=4,0
DEVICE=C:\MSC16\CDSETUP.SYS /T:M /P:340  /I:10
DOS=HIGH
DEVICEHIGH /L:1,12048 =C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
STACKS=9,256
DEVICEHIGH /L:1,23888 =\DEV\ATAPI_CD.SYS /D:SONY_000

I ran memmaker/batch, and it did not make any changes. Apparently, the memory appears optimized to memmaker.

Here are some details from the mem command:

from DOS (dos 6.22):
20480KB total
         Total    Used     Free
Conv.:     640      73      567
Upper:     155      104      51
Reserved:  384      384       0
Extended:20480     2873    17607  

from DOS window in windows:
Extended: 19452   18511    1581
upper:
used by programs: 106688
reserved for windows: 0
Reserved for EMS: 0

Where do you suggest we go from here?

This process may be a little drawn out, because I have to shuttle back and forth to my son's house to check and try things. Thanx for your patience.
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by:EvilEye24
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ooops - forgot: he has very little documentation for the machine, but I doubt that he has any add-in cards such as network cards or scsi controllers.
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by:cookre
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Getting rid of vsafe, the menu prog, and billminder from autoexec will recover a fair amount, as would skipping smartdrv everywhere.

Don't know what m16init is, so don't know if you need it or not.

Dropping LASRDRIVE down to what it ought to be will help a little, as would dropping FILES down a bit (say, 60).

The high extended usage for Windows is just a reflection of what it does - it gloms up extended, then doles it out to whatever tasks come along.
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by:dbrunton
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I totally agree with cookre


REM out smartdrv wherever it is.
REM out vsafe
REM out menu
REM out quicken

REM out setver.  I don't think you'll need it.
Try changing the BUFFERS to 20,0
Try changing LASTDRIVE to F or REMing it out
Try changing FILES to 50.  Beware you may have to change it back to 100 if you get problems.

No need to change virtual memory settings.
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by:oldgreyguy
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and after you do the above suggestions, run MEMMAKER/BATCH again

bill

Also, I would be curious what the following command returns:

MEM /C     (you can add a /P if it won't all fit on one screen)
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by:RoadWarrior
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The mem reported in a windows dos prompt is the amount allowed to dos by the default PIF file, ignore it unless you need more for a dos app under win.

Smartdrv, as it is it is probably using 2Mb or so, I find you get 90% of the performance and none of the nasty disk thrashing in win if you set it to 32-64K.

My take on the swapfile is that the app may be complaining because you don't have one! Since you have a bit of disk space, 2x your main mem would be around optimum. (control panel, 386enhanced, advanced .....) defrag first.

The app may also be complaining of a lack of graphics memory, this is likely if you are running in 16.7M colors 640x480 with a 1mb card, down it to 64k colours.

regards,

Road Warrior
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by:EvilEye24
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OK - I think I'll fool with the swap file, Graphics settings and smartdrv before I massage autoexec and config.As I posted earlier, though, this machine is at my son's house, so there's always going to be a few days lag to try things. Thanks.
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turbo12 earned 100 total points
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SmartDrive in 3.1 is a true block-oriented disk cache utility. Don't REM it out unless you have to do so. You CAN load it into Upper Memory to free Conventional Memory without any problems. If you are using DOS 5.x or higher, SmartDrive automatically loads itself into Upper Memory. So, REMing it out would be pointless.

The advice on running Memmaker.exe is valid. Same for the Buffer, Files and Lastdrive.  Don't REM out the other stuff unless nothing else works. Part of the lines they want you to REM out are Path commands and your son will find he has problems calling these programs.

Info on the Swapfile is good, too.

*****************************************
Your problem, however, is CONVENTIONAL Memory available under Windows DOS mode. Sorry, but Windows does use part of your resources under 640K. You will often find that the DOS window (enhanced mode) has less room to work than the conventional mode (outside Win3.1) DOS environment.
                    -----------------------------------
Solution #1: Simply exit to DOS prompt and run Juno. Memmaker has already optimized you for DOS.
                    --------------------------------------
Solution #2: Run Juno in DOS box under Win3.1. Make the suggested changes that you feel are worthwhile to autoexec.bat and config.sys. Then do some work in PIFeditor.

NOTE: you may need to change your win.ini file to include PIF's as a recognized main program type. Edit the PROGRAMS= line in your win.ini to look as follows:
Programs=com exe bat pif

When you restart Windows, it will run PIF's when you double-click them in File Manager or from an icon.

The PIF editor is used to make Program Information Files that run DOS apps under Windows. It is a very complex program with numerous settings.
It does, however, have a great context-sensitive help. Simply place your blinking cursor inside the relevant box and press F1.

Here is what I suggest for your case:
1) Locate the program "PIF EDITOR". Double click to start it. (Usually located in the folder titled "MAIN".)

 2) Place the full name of the Juno program into the line "PROGRAM FILE NAME".

3) Match the "WINDOW NAME" after the product for easy identification. Such as "Juno".

4) OPTIONAL PARAMETERS: Normally this line can remain blank. You can use "?" the question mark for a dialog box pop-up.

5) STARTUP DIRECTORY: This line MUST contain the drive and path of Juno's install location. Obviously spelling is CRITICAL.

6) Find the line that says: "Memory Requirements" and move your cursor to the box that says "KB Required". The default answer is "128". You should change this number to "-1" to allow for the maximum amount of available memory possible. Similar for the KB desired box  (change to -1).
NOTE: This forces Windows apps to release any discardable memory objects they presently have in Conventional Memory.

7) Click on the "FILE" command atop the PIF Editor. Then Click on  "Save As..". At the prompt, give the new PIF a name like the Juno file.  Generally, it is advised to store PIF files in the WINDOWS directory. I would probably create a PIF folder under the WINDOWS directory so my PIF's will be easy to find.  Click on "OK". Your file is now saved. Exit (or Minimize) the PIF Editor.

8) Add the ICON to your Windows desktop by clicking on the Window command bar "FILE". Then click on "NEW".

9) Match the "PROGRAM NAME" after the product for easy  identification.

10) "COMMAND LINE" need only contain the name of your PIF file, if stored in the WINDOWS directory. If you have saved the PIF to another drive/path, you will need to enter the full path and file name.  (JUNO.PIF or C:\WINDOWS\PIF\JUNO.PIF etc.)

11) Now all your son need do is double-click is new Juno icon to run it under the optimized settings.
                    ----------------------------------------------
Solution #3: Memmaker has an advanced option where you can optimize your Conventional Memory use for the Windows environment. Warning: may mess up running programs under Conventional DOS mode.


Good Luck!
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by:EvilEye24
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Thanks - I expect to get some time at my son's machine this (Mon.) evening. I'll get back ASAP.
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by:EvilEye24
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First, I need yo correct the title of my problem: the program I'm trying to run is setup.exe from the juno installation disk, *not* juno.exe. I'm trying to install juno's free email service for my son. I may have misled you into thinking I'm trying to run some kind of general application, when all i'm really trying to do is an install.

OK, I only had about a half hour with son's machine, but here's what I found:

1. Permanent swap file is set at windows recommended 67252KB. Seems like with 20MB of RAM and a 67MB swap file, I should have no trouble running a 350KB program. Windows doesn't allow larger swap file than recommended.

2. Display is only set to 640x480 256 colors, so that's not using a lot of resources.

3. Ran memmaker with the option to optimize conventional memory turned on. Same result - "insufficient memory" error.

I have not yet played with autoexec or config due to lack of time. I'm not sure I understand the PIF process well enough yet to try that recommendation. I'm going to work at understanding this better.

Next visit to son's house, I'll make the recommended config and autoexec changes. If these don't solve it, I'll tackle PIF.
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by:turbo12
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Step #2 for PIF editing will then be the full location of your setup.exe program. For example: C:\MY DOCUMENTS\SETUP.EXE
This is the program you are running out of memory on, so it is the program that needs PIFeditor.

Step #3 - use a title such as Juno Setup

same for Steps #7-11

Basically, wherever I put "Juno" just sub your Setup program. This technique is generic for ANY program you have Conventional Memory problems with. (pardon the poor grammar)

I suggest Printing out my instructions and giving it a test run from there. The worst that will happen is that you will get the insufficient memory message again. You are NOT actually changing the actual file you wish to run.

Also, Solutions#1 & #2 are valid for Setup.exe.
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by:RoadWarrior
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I would try a check of the disk with Scandisk, it sounds to me like the file is corrupted. Check only at the moment, Scandisk may not fix it so good.
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by:EvilEye24
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ran scandisk with the "thorough" option, and it's clean, so far as that test can tell. Moving right along ;-)
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by:EvilEye24
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Haven't been able to get to my son's place in the past week, and will be out of town until May 28. Will noe be able to try the next steps until after that. I will get back at that time.
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by:turbo12
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you might want to reject my answer and unlock this question before your 21 days are up. I wouldn't want you to lose your points before you know something will work. You won't hurt my feelings, honest. After 21 days, they auto award to points. I don't want them THAT way!!!
:)
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by:EvilEye24
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Answer accepted
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by:EvilEye24
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Turbo12: Your suggestions seemed to really zero in on the problem, so I want to accept your answer even tho I haven't had the time to try everything. Would you be willing to give me some additional help off-line? I'm at jcleres@home.com.

Thanx
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by:turbo12
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no problem. I think this stuff is fun. I've sent an email out to you just now.
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by:turbo12
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jcleres@home.com
could you reply please to let me verify I have the right email for you?
turbo12@techie.com
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