houston
asked on
Win98 System Goes Low on Memory
Within the past 2 months something has happened to my system that makes it run out of memory. The 'Windows is dangerously low on memory. Close applications to free up memory' message pops in the middle of applications when they are the only one running. I close the app and check the System Performance. System Resources shows about 12% free. This is with nothing running except the System Performance screen and normal background utilities.
I reboot and, with all normal background utilities, System Resources shows about 87% free. I can launch several regular apps, use them for a while and exit. System Resources will have dropped slightly - to maybe just under 80% free. But, hours later the low memory message will begin to appear. If I don't exit the application immediately it is likely to freeze. Sometimes I don't get a chance to exit before it freezes. Sometimes Alt-Ctrl-Del ==> End Task will kill the app, sometimes the system locks-up and a raw reboot is required to get out.
The problems may have started with the installation of Office 2000, but shortly before that I had installed the Service Pack for W98, and shortly before that FrontPage. Best I can remember that's all the changes before this problem started. The system had run for about 16 months without this problem. The only Office components I installed were Word, Excel and Publisher.
During these events Kernel Processor use is minimal. Allocated memory, Kernel threads and Locked memory are roughly the same as when System Resources show 80% free.
My system
AMD-K62/230 Pentium
96 meg ram memory
W98 v4.10.1998 Shell32.dll version 4.72.3612.1700
PS2 Intellimouse
60+ applications plus utilities
STB Velocity 128 video card
Zoom 56K modem
Alcatel 1000 ADSL modem
11 gig disk space 5 free
NEC 870 printer
Sound card & dual speakers
13X CD drive
APC 400watt power supply
1 NIC card for LAN & 1 for DSL
Disclaimer
This is a wonderful service and, the people here are great but, I've encountered differences of opinion in the past over whether the problem was solved. So, I now try to define what I consider a qualifying solution. In this case I will consider the problem solved if the problem is fixed, or cause is identified specifically enough that I know which software (utility or application) is causing it, or that it is caused by a specific Windows feature/file. Or, the answer includes a definitive way to demonstrate the problem is with my computer hardware. This definition is vaguer that I generally have but, I can't think of a better one.
I will resist tests that require significant amounts of time or major or irreversible changes to my Windows installation.
Thanks for your help
houston
I reboot and, with all normal background utilities, System Resources shows about 87% free. I can launch several regular apps, use them for a while and exit. System Resources will have dropped slightly - to maybe just under 80% free. But, hours later the low memory message will begin to appear. If I don't exit the application immediately it is likely to freeze. Sometimes I don't get a chance to exit before it freezes. Sometimes Alt-Ctrl-Del ==> End Task will kill the app, sometimes the system locks-up and a raw reboot is required to get out.
The problems may have started with the installation of Office 2000, but shortly before that I had installed the Service Pack for W98, and shortly before that FrontPage. Best I can remember that's all the changes before this problem started. The system had run for about 16 months without this problem. The only Office components I installed were Word, Excel and Publisher.
During these events Kernel Processor use is minimal. Allocated memory, Kernel threads and Locked memory are roughly the same as when System Resources show 80% free.
My system
AMD-K62/230 Pentium
96 meg ram memory
W98 v4.10.1998 Shell32.dll version 4.72.3612.1700
PS2 Intellimouse
60+ applications plus utilities
STB Velocity 128 video card
Zoom 56K modem
Alcatel 1000 ADSL modem
11 gig disk space 5 free
NEC 870 printer
Sound card & dual speakers
13X CD drive
APC 400watt power supply
1 NIC card for LAN & 1 for DSL
Disclaimer
This is a wonderful service and, the people here are great but, I've encountered differences of opinion in the past over whether the problem was solved. So, I now try to define what I consider a qualifying solution. In this case I will consider the problem solved if the problem is fixed, or cause is identified specifically enough that I know which software (utility or application) is causing it, or that it is caused by a specific Windows feature/file. Or, the answer includes a definitive way to demonstrate the problem is with my computer hardware. This definition is vaguer that I generally have but, I can't think of a better one.
I will resist tests that require significant amounts of time or major or irreversible changes to my Windows installation.
Thanks for your help
houston
For a start, try hitting CTRL+ALT+DELETE and see what's in the list of running processes. Post here any you don't recognise or don't think should be there. (Clue: Explorer and Systray are *always* there <G>).
houston,
This may or may not help, but you can go to <start> <run> <msconfig> <selective startup> and shut down programs that automatically startup during Reboot.
AL
This may or may not help, but you can go to <start> <run> <msconfig> <selective startup> and shut down programs that automatically startup during Reboot.
AL
houston,
also, I believe mso keeps rewriting to the harddrive continuously which puts a heavy strain on systems resources constantly. Have you gone to MS, and downloaded all their upgrades for w98 and mso lately?
AL
also, I believe mso keeps rewriting to the harddrive continuously which puts a heavy strain on systems resources constantly. Have you gone to MS, and downloaded all their upgrades for w98 and mso lately?
AL
I had the same problem, and this is how I stopped it in my system:
Right Click on My Computer > Properties > Performance > Virtual Memory. Change the selection from "Let Windows manage my virtuual memory" to "Let me specify my virtual memory settings." Set the minimum to the amount of RAM you have in your system, and the maximum to 3 times that amount. Click Ok, then click OK again, and reboot your system. You shouldn't have the problem of dwindling resources any longer.
As an aside, I had this problem with Win 98 SE before I installed Office 2000, so I don't think Office is the culprit. If you're running Office 97, be sure to remove FastFind from the startup menu.
Right Click on My Computer > Properties > Performance > Virtual Memory. Change the selection from "Let Windows manage my virtuual memory" to "Let me specify my virtual memory settings." Set the minimum to the amount of RAM you have in your system, and the maximum to 3 times that amount. Click Ok, then click OK again, and reboot your system. You shouldn't have the problem of dwindling resources any longer.
As an aside, I had this problem with Win 98 SE before I installed Office 2000, so I don't think Office is the culprit. If you're running Office 97, be sure to remove FastFind from the startup menu.
Have you check MS website. I believe they have a patch for Office2000 for leak problems
Check your virus software, if installed, for corruption.
It also may benefit you to do some basic maintanence prior to looking for in depth causes.
Run SFC, Windows Updates, download and use RegClean, Run scandisk and Defrag.
Also run msconfig and look for any starup items that you may not be aware of.
Use msconfig as your troubleshooter for all programs running in background.
Turn on and off and reboot to try the different configurations.
Those items may not resolve your problem, but they will put your system in optimum running condition, leaving you to deal with specif issue.
As for your disclaimer, it's the nature of windows and PCs in general, that once it's out of the box and human hands touch it,
it becomes different than any other out there.
With all the combos of software, hardware and people, what workds for one , will not for another.
Therefore the different suggestions. One may fit your specific situation.
centerv
It also may benefit you to do some basic maintanence prior to looking for in depth causes.
Run SFC, Windows Updates, download and use RegClean, Run scandisk and Defrag.
Also run msconfig and look for any starup items that you may not be aware of.
Use msconfig as your troubleshooter for all programs running in background.
Turn on and off and reboot to try the different configurations.
Those items may not resolve your problem, but they will put your system in optimum running condition, leaving you to deal with specif issue.
As for your disclaimer, it's the nature of windows and PCs in general, that once it's out of the box and human hands touch it,
it becomes different than any other out there.
With all the combos of software, hardware and people, what workds for one , will not for another.
Therefore the different suggestions. One may fit your specific situation.
centerv
ASKER
Because several of the comments are similar or related I'm going to address all with one reply. If I understand the suggestions, I've considered/done all but one.
Using Alt-Ctrl-Del to list some of the background programs and using msconfig to find others.
I've done both of these.
These are what I meant by "background utilities"
I discovered a thing called something like Office Startup which was new to me. I removed it a week or so ago - no change.
A couple of items I don't remember, nor know what they do, are Point32 & scanregw.
If somebody knows what these do and thinks I should try removing them I will, but since I don't know what effect removing them may have I was reluctant to remove them.
Other than this the current set of background utilities is the same as it has always been.
There were suggestions that Office may have memory leaks or high activity problems that could be causing. This happens in sessions where I've never run any Office applications and I can find no evidence there are any parts of Office running (see background utilities above)
Someone suggested: "Run SFC, Windows Updates, download and use RegClean, Run scandisk and Defrag."
I've regularly kept up with W98 updates except for SP1, which MS never made available for download. As I mentioned in my original post, I recently ordered the CD and installed SP1 during the suspect period for problem onset.
I've used RegClean, run SFC, run Defrag and, I've run scandisk many times because a total lockup and raw reboot, caused by this problem, results in a scandisk execution every time.
The same person suggested my virus checker might have become corrupt. I'm not sure what concern prompted this suggestion, but I use Norton AntiVirus. I run it during bootup, but it does not stay resident. I run it on selected files and on the entire system when troubleshooting. I've installed all the updates (they don't update this version anymore) and run it on the system several times while troubleshooting this problem.
I appreciate the responses, but I think I've covered considered most of them.
The one possibility that remains is the suggestion to take Virtual Memory management away from
Windows and do it manually. This is easy to try, so I'll probably do it. Does anyone else think this may fix the problem?
houston
Using Alt-Ctrl-Del to list some of the background programs and using msconfig to find others.
I've done both of these.
These are what I meant by "background utilities"
I discovered a thing called something like Office Startup which was new to me. I removed it a week or so ago - no change.
A couple of items I don't remember, nor know what they do, are Point32 & scanregw.
If somebody knows what these do and thinks I should try removing them I will, but since I don't know what effect removing them may have I was reluctant to remove them.
Other than this the current set of background utilities is the same as it has always been.
There were suggestions that Office may have memory leaks or high activity problems that could be causing. This happens in sessions where I've never run any Office applications and I can find no evidence there are any parts of Office running (see background utilities above)
Someone suggested: "Run SFC, Windows Updates, download and use RegClean, Run scandisk and Defrag."
I've regularly kept up with W98 updates except for SP1, which MS never made available for download. As I mentioned in my original post, I recently ordered the CD and installed SP1 during the suspect period for problem onset.
I've used RegClean, run SFC, run Defrag and, I've run scandisk many times because a total lockup and raw reboot, caused by this problem, results in a scandisk execution every time.
The same person suggested my virus checker might have become corrupt. I'm not sure what concern prompted this suggestion, but I use Norton AntiVirus. I run it during bootup, but it does not stay resident. I run it on selected files and on the entire system when troubleshooting. I've installed all the updates (they don't update this version anymore) and run it on the system several times while troubleshooting this problem.
I appreciate the responses, but I think I've covered considered most of them.
The one possibility that remains is the suggestion to take Virtual Memory management away from
Windows and do it manually. This is easy to try, so I'll probably do it. Does anyone else think this may fix the problem?
houston
houston,
Let me know if it works because the value of the answer may be beneficial to me! I'm afraid my computer may have the same symptom, afraid to try based upon my information and my expertise, need more data!
AL
Let me know if it works because the value of the answer may be beneficial to me! I'm afraid my computer may have the same symptom, afraid to try based upon my information and my expertise, need more data!
AL
Norton AV has the potential and has been very troublesome with win98 in many instances.
Try uninstalling and run without it.
Also, clean all temp files in hard drive. Always the possibility of residual installation programs conflicting.
Same for history and cookie files. Clear all.
Scanreg is a must have in win98. It allows you t restore your registry. However, it doesn't go back far enough for your case.
Not sure of point32. Could you be referring to msinfo32? Run from start/run and look for conflicts.
You can also try and repair the registryby booting to Dos, type: scanreg fix
and hit enter.
Did anyone mention add/remove MS IE and Tools? Choose repair option.
centerv
Try uninstalling and run without it.
Also, clean all temp files in hard drive. Always the possibility of residual installation programs conflicting.
Same for history and cookie files. Clear all.
Scanreg is a must have in win98. It allows you t restore your registry. However, it doesn't go back far enough for your case.
Not sure of point32. Could you be referring to msinfo32? Run from start/run and look for conflicts.
You can also try and repair the registryby booting to Dos, type: scanreg fix
and hit enter.
Did anyone mention add/remove MS IE and Tools? Choose repair option.
centerv
POINT32 is one of the components of the Microsoft Intellipoint mouse software. It provides all those supposedly "useful" extra features which everyone turns off after about 3 seconds because they're so annoying, like Snap To Default Button in dialogs.
If you had Office Startup you may also have Find Fast. These two programs are the first things I remove from any system with Office that is having problems. Check to make sure Find Fast is not running also. If it is remove it. Usually just sits in the startup group but have come across a few systems where I had to remove all reference to Find Fast from the registry using regedit.
ASKER
To: centerv
> Norton AV has the potential and has been very troublesome with
> win98 in many instances. Try uninstalling and run without it.
It's troublesome even if it's not running and has not run during the given Windows session?
Norton has a feature where it will run a check on vitals (memory, main system files, etc.) during bootup, but before windows loads. I run that check, but I do not run Norton after Windows loads.
> Also, clean all temp files in hard drive. Always the possibility
> of residual installation programs conflicting.
I assume you mean Windows/TEMP & /Temporary Internet Files. I didn't understand how these could cause conflicts, but they were easy to clean out, so I did it at your suggestion. It will take a day or so to tell if it had any effect.
> Same for history and cookie files. Clear all.
My history file only goes back 10days - the problem started and all changes were made before that.
I don't keep cookies.
It might be appropriate to mention here that I don't use IE. I use Netscape. But, this reminded me that I upgraded IE to the latest version after installing FrontPage. This is within the problem onset time span.
> Scanreg is a must have in win98. It allows you t restore your
> registry. However, it doesn't go back far enough for your case.
Well, I have registry backups going back 18 months but, they wouldn't have the updates made for Office and FrontPage and SP1.
> Not sure of point32. Could you be referring to msinfo32?
No. This file name is Point32.exe. There's an associated Point32.dll. Both are located in the Microsoft/hardware folder and appear to be the mouse pointer. Given the dates on file & folder it's been being installed from the computer's beginning. I'd rule it out.
> Run [msinfo32] from start/run and look for conflicts.
Well, well . . . Now there's a new one to me. I ran it and it only displays the 'applications' category and this only contains Office components - some of which I don't even have installed. I ran it on another machine and it lists all kinds of wonderful stuff, but not on the machine where it could help me. Hmm . . .
> You can also try and repair the registry by booting to Dos,
> type: scanreg fix and hit enter.
Per your suggestion I ran it. It claimed it rebuilt both registry files. It took between 3 and 4 hours to complete.
> Did anyone mention add/remove MS IE and Tools? Choose repair option.
I don't understand what that means.
Thanks very much for your help. I should know in a few days if it's done any good.
houston
> Norton AV has the potential and has been very troublesome with
> win98 in many instances. Try uninstalling and run without it.
It's troublesome even if it's not running and has not run during the given Windows session?
Norton has a feature where it will run a check on vitals (memory, main system files, etc.) during bootup, but before windows loads. I run that check, but I do not run Norton after Windows loads.
> Also, clean all temp files in hard drive. Always the possibility
> of residual installation programs conflicting.
I assume you mean Windows/TEMP & /Temporary Internet Files. I didn't understand how these could cause conflicts, but they were easy to clean out, so I did it at your suggestion. It will take a day or so to tell if it had any effect.
> Same for history and cookie files. Clear all.
My history file only goes back 10days - the problem started and all changes were made before that.
I don't keep cookies.
It might be appropriate to mention here that I don't use IE. I use Netscape. But, this reminded me that I upgraded IE to the latest version after installing FrontPage. This is within the problem onset time span.
> Scanreg is a must have in win98. It allows you t restore your
> registry. However, it doesn't go back far enough for your case.
Well, I have registry backups going back 18 months but, they wouldn't have the updates made for Office and FrontPage and SP1.
> Not sure of point32. Could you be referring to msinfo32?
No. This file name is Point32.exe. There's an associated Point32.dll. Both are located in the Microsoft/hardware folder and appear to be the mouse pointer. Given the dates on file & folder it's been being installed from the computer's beginning. I'd rule it out.
> Run [msinfo32] from start/run and look for conflicts.
Well, well . . . Now there's a new one to me. I ran it and it only displays the 'applications' category and this only contains Office components - some of which I don't even have installed. I ran it on another machine and it lists all kinds of wonderful stuff, but not on the machine where it could help me. Hmm . . .
> You can also try and repair the registry by booting to Dos,
> type: scanreg fix and hit enter.
Per your suggestion I ran it. It claimed it rebuilt both registry files. It took between 3 and 4 hours to complete.
> Did anyone mention add/remove MS IE and Tools? Choose repair option.
I don't understand what that means.
Thanks very much for your help. I should know in a few days if it's done any good.
houston
ASKER
To: Dassa
I did not install FildFind, and it's not in the startup area/list.
houston
I did not install FildFind, and it's not in the startup area/list.
houston
Just to humor me, could you please check your control panel for a Fast Find icon. If it is there, you can set it to not start on login by making sure there is not a tick next to the setting and then select stop and exit.
ASKER
To: Dassa
There is a Fast Find icon (binocular with lightening) in the Control Panel. When I click the icon it says it's not installed, then rushes off to install it. Because the Office CD in not in the drive, the attempt to install it fails and Windows says it can't load Fast Find.
houston
There is a Fast Find icon (binocular with lightening) in the Control Panel. When I click the icon it says it's not installed, then rushes off to install it. Because the Office CD in not in the drive, the attempt to install it fails and Windows says it can't load Fast Find.
houston
That is good then. At least one more possible culprit eliminated :)
Have you used the Windows Update and made sure all the appropriate patches etc are installed? Most likely have, if not that would be a start.
Something is obviously using it up.
I use a program called prcview available from www.teamcti.com/pview. This can run in your system try. You could then check on what process is using cpu and other resources. Might help to track down the problem.
Have you used the Windows Update and made sure all the appropriate patches etc are installed? Most likely have, if not that would be a start.
Something is obviously using it up.
I use a program called prcview available from www.teamcti.com/pview. This can run in your system try. You could then check on what process is using cpu and other resources. Might help to track down the problem.
Win98 or any operating system for that matter works with something called Virtual memory. This virtual memory is taken from your Hard Disk space. If you use heavy applications such as Office 2000, It eats up the Virtual Memory and though you have good enough hard disk and memory, It will give you this message.
In control panel, Go in System, there is an option for Virtual Memory. Change the option from "Let windows manage your virtual memory" to manage it yourself. And increase the Virtual Memory Size. Restart the Machine. This should solve the Problem.
In control panel, Go in System, there is an option for Virtual Memory. Change the option from "Let windows manage your virtual memory" to manage it yourself. And increase the Virtual Memory Size. Restart the Machine. This should solve the Problem.
ASKER
To: v_purbhe
nbdyfool suggested this yesterday, Saturday, April 29 2000 @ 05:37AM PDT.
I will try it if the changes I made following centerv's suggestions don't fix the problem. If it fixes the problem, I will be giving the points to nbdyfool.
houston
nbdyfool suggested this yesterday, Saturday, April 29 2000 @ 05:37AM PDT.
I will try it if the changes I made following centerv's suggestions don't fix the problem. If it fixes the problem, I will be giving the points to nbdyfool.
houston
houston
for future ref, the leftover temp files may containe dlls and other items that have a potential of conflicting with installed items.
Norton may not be running, but all of its components are still in the system and active. High conflict potential.
Old registry backups become useless. All you need is the latest working copy to be effective.
By running scanreg/restore, you can choose the option of how many copies for the system to save for you automatically.
Scanreg/fix. Thats along time, for me, to fix the registry. It's always been minutes for me.
The lack of msinfo32 and the long process of scanreg/fix, leads me to believe that you have corrupted win98 system. There may be a need for a clean install. OUCH.
Before that though, the fact that you use Netscape over IE is irrelevent in win98. You need IE, because updates to IE also fixes and updates win98.
Go to control panel, add/remove programs, pick MS IE and Tools and click on add/remove.
Choose the Repair IE from the popup window.
If you dont have the core files on your drive, you'll be taken to MS download.
It will install automatically. 8+meg download.
After repair, run SFC again to update all system files.
If you dont have MS IE and Tools, you dont have the latest windows updates. Go to Ms windows updates site.
If you dont have msinfo32 at this point, you may want to consider reinstalling win98 over itself and get the updates again.
centerv
for future ref, the leftover temp files may containe dlls and other items that have a potential of conflicting with installed items.
Norton may not be running, but all of its components are still in the system and active. High conflict potential.
Old registry backups become useless. All you need is the latest working copy to be effective.
By running scanreg/restore, you can choose the option of how many copies for the system to save for you automatically.
Scanreg/fix. Thats along time, for me, to fix the registry. It's always been minutes for me.
The lack of msinfo32 and the long process of scanreg/fix, leads me to believe that you have corrupted win98 system. There may be a need for a clean install. OUCH.
Before that though, the fact that you use Netscape over IE is irrelevent in win98. You need IE, because updates to IE also fixes and updates win98.
Go to control panel, add/remove programs, pick MS IE and Tools and click on add/remove.
Choose the Repair IE from the popup window.
If you dont have the core files on your drive, you'll be taken to MS download.
It will install automatically. 8+meg download.
After repair, run SFC again to update all system files.
If you dont have MS IE and Tools, you dont have the latest windows updates. Go to Ms windows updates site.
If you dont have msinfo32 at this point, you may want to consider reinstalling win98 over itself and get the updates again.
centerv
ASKER
To: centerv
The problem just recurred so, the things we did yesterday didn't fix it.
I'll read your latest remarks and get back to you.
houston
The problem just recurred so, the things we did yesterday didn't fix it.
I'll read your latest remarks and get back to you.
houston
ASKER
To: centerv
The problem just recurred so, the things we did yesterday didn't fix it.
I'll read your latest remarks and get back to you.
houston
The problem just recurred so, the things we did yesterday didn't fix it.
I'll read your latest remarks and get back to you.
houston
ASKER
To: centerv
> Norton may not be running, but all of its components are
> still in the system and active. High conflict potential.
I do not believe any Norton components are "active" unless the program has violated my choices to NOT have them active and then has hidden them so well there is no evidence they are running.
If you still think some part of AV is running you will have to provide a way to demonstrate it.
> The lack of msinfo32 and the long process of scanreg/fix, leads me to believe that you > have corrupted win98 system.
If so, Office or FrontPage or the W98 SP1 or IE 5.01 update corrupted it.
> There may be a need for a clean install. OUCH.
Not likely.
> Before that though, the fact that you use Netscape over IE is irrelevent
> in win98. You need IE, because updates to IE also fixes and updates win98.
It was for information. You talked about history files and cookies and the like. I was letting you know any of this stuff I might have is not IE stuff, 'cause I don't use IE as a browser.
> Go to control panel, add/remove programs, pick MS IE and Tools and
> click on add/remove. Choose the Repair IE from the popup window.
>
> After repair, run SFC again to update all system files.
I did all that and it all ran successfully with no indication of finding any problems.
> If you dont have msinfo32 at this point, you may want to consider
> reinstalling win98 over itself and get the updates again.
If MS IE file check, SFC, and scanreg /fix all run without complaint, what reason is there to think W98 system files are corrupt?
houston
> Norton may not be running, but all of its components are
> still in the system and active. High conflict potential.
I do not believe any Norton components are "active" unless the program has violated my choices to NOT have them active and then has hidden them so well there is no evidence they are running.
If you still think some part of AV is running you will have to provide a way to demonstrate it.
> The lack of msinfo32 and the long process of scanreg/fix, leads me to believe that you > have corrupted win98 system.
If so, Office or FrontPage or the W98 SP1 or IE 5.01 update corrupted it.
> There may be a need for a clean install. OUCH.
Not likely.
> Before that though, the fact that you use Netscape over IE is irrelevent
> in win98. You need IE, because updates to IE also fixes and updates win98.
It was for information. You talked about history files and cookies and the like. I was letting you know any of this stuff I might have is not IE stuff, 'cause I don't use IE as a browser.
> Go to control panel, add/remove programs, pick MS IE and Tools and
> click on add/remove. Choose the Repair IE from the popup window.
>
> After repair, run SFC again to update all system files.
I did all that and it all ran successfully with no indication of finding any problems.
> If you dont have msinfo32 at this point, you may want to consider
> reinstalling win98 over itself and get the updates again.
If MS IE file check, SFC, and scanreg /fix all run without complaint, what reason is there to think W98 system files are corrupt?
houston
Roger, houston (sorry, I couldn't resist). Umm...anyway, I'm not sure there's a cure to leaky applications other than rebooting. But have you tried MemTurbo, a downloadable memory manager of sorts? (You can try it at http://www.memturbo.com.) It's gotten excellent reviews and is reputed to not only plug memory leaks, but defrag your memory through a simple CNTRL-ALT-M command. Of course, its success depends on how the offending program was written. But it's worth a try. It's helped my resource problems, especially on NT, but it also works on Windows 98/95 systems.
ASKER
> I'm not sure there's a cure to leaky
> applications other than rebooting.
jiler, this is houston -- assuming my problem is caused by a leaky app, the cure I favor is to locate the offending app and move it to the bit bucket.
Reread your 12:123 post.
Some of your questions gets you thinking!! I think you're answering yourself.
Do you have msinfo32 fully functional now? If not, you have components missing in win98.
No utility program is foolproof. SFC is only as good as the info you plug in.
Quite possible to tell it to update corrupted files, and it will see them as good from there on. SFC itself could become corrupted.
Remenber, you're looking for a needle in a haystack here.
Download Regmon.exe form one of the popular sites and observe what actions the
registry is doing, if any , as your pc is idle. That is no imput from you.
There should be no activity if no imput from you.
If there is, look for a problem with the app that it shows.
At this point, I think that you have in this question, or have done all the extensive fixes that win98 is capable of, without trying to edit the registry,
which I think is unecessary here.
Also, we're discarding hardware, such as bad ram or non compatible ram.
You could download one of the various utilities to check those as well.
I could be missing something, but if you have tried all the comments above,
than I would suggest that you uninstall the apps one a time, beginning with Norton, and try running without each one.
centerv
Some of your questions gets you thinking!! I think you're answering yourself.
Do you have msinfo32 fully functional now? If not, you have components missing in win98.
No utility program is foolproof. SFC is only as good as the info you plug in.
Quite possible to tell it to update corrupted files, and it will see them as good from there on. SFC itself could become corrupted.
Remenber, you're looking for a needle in a haystack here.
Download Regmon.exe form one of the popular sites and observe what actions the
registry is doing, if any , as your pc is idle. That is no imput from you.
There should be no activity if no imput from you.
If there is, look for a problem with the app that it shows.
At this point, I think that you have in this question, or have done all the extensive fixes that win98 is capable of, without trying to edit the registry,
which I think is unecessary here.
Also, we're discarding hardware, such as bad ram or non compatible ram.
You could download one of the various utilities to check those as well.
I could be missing something, but if you have tried all the comments above,
than I would suggest that you uninstall the apps one a time, beginning with Norton, and try running without each one.
centerv
In reviewing your question, i noticed the NICs
somehow I'd only caught one earlier.
Is this a gateway for ICS or similar?
Is that about the time you installed same that you started having problems?
Are you sharing drives?
Are you not running win98 Second Edition? Suggest you upgrade to that.
Networks can be notoriously troublesome along these lines also.
centerv
somehow I'd only caught one earlier.
Is this a gateway for ICS or similar?
Is that about the time you installed same that you started having problems?
Are you sharing drives?
Are you not running win98 Second Edition? Suggest you upgrade to that.
Networks can be notoriously troublesome along these lines also.
centerv
ASKER
To: centerv
> In reviewing your question, i noticed the NICs somehow I'd only
> caught one earlier. Is this a gateway for ICS or similar?
One NIC is for a LAN. The other is for a DSL line. The machine with the problems is my primary machine. It also acts as server to the others.
> Is that about the time you installed same that you started having problems?
No. The LAN has been operating for the life of this machine, and the DSL had been in place 6 months before the problems started.
> Are you sharing drives?
Across the LAN, yes.
> Are you not running win98 Second Edition? Suggest you upgrade to that.
I chose not to upgrade to SE because I couldn't see it brought anything I wanted to the party. My DSL line sharing is stable and working well. I was a little concerned SE's internet sharing software might conflict with my current setup (SyGate).
> Networks can be notoriously troublesome along these lines also.
As I've said, all my network stuff was working well long before this problem began.
By the way, I want to thank you for all your effort on this. I've learned several things from you.
houston
> In reviewing your question, i noticed the NICs somehow I'd only
> caught one earlier. Is this a gateway for ICS or similar?
One NIC is for a LAN. The other is for a DSL line. The machine with the problems is my primary machine. It also acts as server to the others.
> Is that about the time you installed same that you started having problems?
No. The LAN has been operating for the life of this machine, and the DSL had been in place 6 months before the problems started.
> Are you sharing drives?
Across the LAN, yes.
> Are you not running win98 Second Edition? Suggest you upgrade to that.
I chose not to upgrade to SE because I couldn't see it brought anything I wanted to the party. My DSL line sharing is stable and working well. I was a little concerned SE's internet sharing software might conflict with my current setup (SyGate).
> Networks can be notoriously troublesome along these lines also.
As I've said, all my network stuff was working well long before this problem began.
By the way, I want to thank you for all your effort on this. I've learned several things from you.
houston
Houston, sorry you can't fix the problem. Part of it is Windows and part of it is the inherently leaky, sloppy, poorly-written code that keeps being dumped on us from just about everyone, including Microsoft (as hard as that may be to believe). I reckon if you have the resources to monitor memory usage, you can watch as you launch programs and then bail out and see how much they give up. With my NT system at work, I almost never have to reboot with MemTurbo. But MemTurbo can't save me from ultimately having to reboot Windows 98. The guage goes down, down, down. It helps though. Anyway, if NT is an option, you might want to consider Windows 2000 eventually. It's supposed to be much better. (I knew breaking the 64k limit was a mistake back in my Kaypro/Zorba/TeleVideo days! Those CP/M programmers were geniuses.)
houston
I was also six months younger six months ago :)
I understand your reluctance to make changes, however there is no magic cure for your mem leak.
There's always the off chance that someone may hit on it, so's winning the lottery.
The setup you have is a classic for potentially a multitude of problems with win98.
You may do well to have an extra HD and clone it.
Sooner or later you'll need it.
It also allows you to experiment, knowing that you can always restore the clone.
ICS is an individual component of win98, installed separately.
Best of luck
centerv
I was also six months younger six months ago :)
I understand your reluctance to make changes, however there is no magic cure for your mem leak.
There's always the off chance that someone may hit on it, so's winning the lottery.
The setup you have is a classic for potentially a multitude of problems with win98.
You may do well to have an extra HD and clone it.
Sooner or later you'll need it.
It also allows you to experiment, knowing that you can always restore the clone.
ICS is an individual component of win98, installed separately.
Best of luck
centerv
ASKER
To: centerv
> The setup you have is a classic for potentially a multitude of
> problems with win98.
Specifically which aspect of my setup is troubleprone?
houston
> The setup you have is a classic for potentially a multitude of
> problems with win98.
Specifically which aspect of my setup is troubleprone?
houston
Did hard setting the virtual memory have any effect at all? I had the exact same problem you described, and that's what fixed it. There have been a lot of good suggestions given, but I stand by mine, from personal experience.
Let us know if it works!
Let us know if it works!
ASKER
To: nbdyfool
I only did that last night. It will take a few a few days to know for sure if it's fixed, or we could know soon if it's not.
The problem I see with your solution is that it doesn't fix the underlying cause, it just lets activity spill into virtual memory as the real problem eats up RAM, and virtual memory is slooooow.
houston
I only did that last night. It will take a few a few days to know for sure if it's fixed, or we could know soon if it's not.
The problem I see with your solution is that it doesn't fix the underlying cause, it just lets activity spill into virtual memory as the real problem eats up RAM, and virtual memory is slooooow.
houston
As I see it, it's a flaw in Win98SE, and Microsoft is stonewalling the problem (no surprise there). I haven't got the time to dig and poke around and try to discover the underlying cause, I just use what works and allows me to keep on going. I agree with someone else's assessment that it is poorly written code, but I think the poorly written code is in Windows itself.
ASKER
To: nbdyfool
> As I see it, it's a flaw in Win98SE
I'm not using SE
houston
> As I see it, it's a flaw in Win98SE
I'm not using SE
houston
Well, there seems to be a few schools of thought here. Some of us I are resigned to the whole bloody mess and accept it as having to go with a monopolistic operating system (Microsoft). Resource gobbling on the parts of Windows 95/98 is an unavoidable reality. Sloppy code in other Microsoft code (and other aps, let's face it) also is an unavoidable reality. Then Houston comes along with the notion that it shouldn't be like that. Well, he's right. But what are we gonna do? Buy a Mac? Macs have the same problem and, in my experience, the Mac OS has a tendancy with normal use to eventually corrupt itself, just like Windows. And it suffers memory leaks as well. The bottom line is that with either operating system, if you install it and use it day to day, eventually it will corrupt itself unless utilities are run that will keep it in check. So, again, for the here and now, what're we gonna do, eh? Alas, with Microsoft under federal seige, things aren't likely to get better.
I'm running Win98SE on two systems here networked with shared drives on both. One has ICS installed and allows connection of the other through a dialup (modem). The main system runs a firewall, I have the alladvantage console on and a number of other memory hungry apps. I also have Office 2000 installed. I haven't run into the same problems you have. I also ran a similar setup under Win98 (without ICS) and also Win95. Again, without this problem. So it is not simply a matter of saying Win98 and Office 2000 is prone to memory leaks. There are obviously other factors involved. For instance, how often is your system booted? Mine is rebooted every day. Mainly cause there is no need to leave it on while I'm at work :).
I tend to think there is something that has become corrupted and that is causing the problem. Tracking it down is basically a pain. Have you tried that process viewer I suggested. With it you should be able to see what process is actually hogging memory and with some experiments,may be able to track down the culprit.
I tend to think there is something that has become corrupted and that is causing the problem. Tracking it down is basically a pain. Have you tried that process viewer I suggested. With it you should be able to see what process is actually hogging memory and with some experiments,may be able to track down the culprit.
ASKER
To: Dassa
>>>
Have you tried that process viewer I suggested. With it you should be able to see what process is actually hogging memory and with some experiments,may be able to track down the culprit.
<<<
Not yet. Right now I'm trying the suggestion of taking virtual memory management away from Windows. So far, it looks promising. I haven't had a low memory event for 24 hours.
houston
>>>
Have you tried that process viewer I suggested. With it you should be able to see what process is actually hogging memory and with some experiments,may be able to track down the culprit.
<<<
Not yet. Right now I'm trying the suggestion of taking virtual memory management away from Windows. So far, it looks promising. I haven't had a low memory event for 24 hours.
houston
Hi, Houston!
I'm not new to this site, but it's been quite a well since I visited it. I don't enjoy misery (having had my share using a PC!), but I greatly enjoy the camaraderie displayed in the tech community. This was certainly evident when I printed out this question: it came to 12 pages. I wanted to review everyone's answers to make sure I wasn't repeating anything that had already been said.
Now that the long intro is out of the way. This is the second question in two screens I've seen dealing with low memory in Win98. The configuration of each computer is so different, it truly is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. As far as I can tell, the only common denominator is Win98. Or is it?
I'll give you the same answer I gave them. Go to Steve Gibson's site, www.grc.com, and run his program OptOut. There are almost 400 freeware/adware/shareware programs that are allowing Aureate (now called Radiate) to piggyback on them when you install the guilty party. What for? To track you across the web and build a database of information that they can sell. If you've installed ANY programs that you found on the internet, you might have it, which could possibly be causing your memory leaks. Having DSL means you're always "on" and Radiate can monitor you whether you have your browser open or not. It's a true trojan horse. OptOut scans your system and registry for "hidden" files and notifies you of their existence. You can do this online or download the program and run it independently. I would recommend both. Steve writes in pure assembly code, making his apps very small and very fast. If you care about virus checking your computer, files and e-mail, adding OptOut or another program like it to your regimen won't hurt.
As a matter of fact, suspect any program that you have on your computer. Information data mining is such big business I wouldn't put it past most companies of either being tempted or having fallen to the temptation of finding out whatever they can about you so they can turn around and sell it to the highest bidder. With technology getting faster and more capable of handling the increasing demands on it by applications, the top tier system configurations shouldn't be having such problems as memory leakage; 32MB and over should be plenty, especially when you say you're not multitasking up a storm on a regular basis.
After 12 pages, it's worth a try :D
I wanted to say more, but this isn't the place.
I'm not new to this site, but it's been quite a well since I visited it. I don't enjoy misery (having had my share using a PC!), but I greatly enjoy the camaraderie displayed in the tech community. This was certainly evident when I printed out this question: it came to 12 pages. I wanted to review everyone's answers to make sure I wasn't repeating anything that had already been said.
Now that the long intro is out of the way. This is the second question in two screens I've seen dealing with low memory in Win98. The configuration of each computer is so different, it truly is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. As far as I can tell, the only common denominator is Win98. Or is it?
I'll give you the same answer I gave them. Go to Steve Gibson's site, www.grc.com, and run his program OptOut. There are almost 400 freeware/adware/shareware programs that are allowing Aureate (now called Radiate) to piggyback on them when you install the guilty party. What for? To track you across the web and build a database of information that they can sell. If you've installed ANY programs that you found on the internet, you might have it, which could possibly be causing your memory leaks. Having DSL means you're always "on" and Radiate can monitor you whether you have your browser open or not. It's a true trojan horse. OptOut scans your system and registry for "hidden" files and notifies you of their existence. You can do this online or download the program and run it independently. I would recommend both. Steve writes in pure assembly code, making his apps very small and very fast. If you care about virus checking your computer, files and e-mail, adding OptOut or another program like it to your regimen won't hurt.
As a matter of fact, suspect any program that you have on your computer. Information data mining is such big business I wouldn't put it past most companies of either being tempted or having fallen to the temptation of finding out whatever they can about you so they can turn around and sell it to the highest bidder. With technology getting faster and more capable of handling the increasing demands on it by applications, the top tier system configurations shouldn't be having such problems as memory leakage; 32MB and over should be plenty, especially when you say you're not multitasking up a storm on a regular basis.
After 12 pages, it's worth a try :D
I wanted to say more, but this isn't the place.
ASKER
To: smorg
> Go to Steve Gibson's site, www.grc.com, and run his
> program OptOut.
I know Steve well. I have & run OptOut about once a month.
houston
> Go to Steve Gibson's site, www.grc.com, and run his
> program OptOut.
I know Steve well. I have & run OptOut about once a month.
houston
houston
Late response. hoped you had solved your problem by now.
"Specifically which aspect of my setup is troubleprone? "
Your basic pc, full of apps, plus 2 nics and and shared connection and other resources.
You're doing well to keep them running!! :)
All that demand is more than most pcs ever thought of handling, and I don't think the design engeneers ever thought of it either.
Don't really know where to send you from here.
Too many possebilities for mishaps to diagnose, especially at arm's lenght.
A couple of suggestions though...
You may want to consider a router to handle the dsl and network traffic, relieving the pc.
Someone above mentioned a mac!!
When you stop laughing, I can tell you that my small network of mixed macs and pcs has been running for about three years, with cable shared for about 2, anchored by a mac server.
Over the many upgrades and disk repairs of the mac, I've never had to reformat and reload the macs.
Its a guess on the pcs. Guess high!
There are other advantages as well.
centerv
Late response. hoped you had solved your problem by now.
"Specifically which aspect of my setup is troubleprone? "
Your basic pc, full of apps, plus 2 nics and and shared connection and other resources.
You're doing well to keep them running!! :)
All that demand is more than most pcs ever thought of handling, and I don't think the design engeneers ever thought of it either.
Don't really know where to send you from here.
Too many possebilities for mishaps to diagnose, especially at arm's lenght.
A couple of suggestions though...
You may want to consider a router to handle the dsl and network traffic, relieving the pc.
Someone above mentioned a mac!!
When you stop laughing, I can tell you that my small network of mixed macs and pcs has been running for about three years, with cable shared for about 2, anchored by a mac server.
Over the many upgrades and disk repairs of the mac, I've never had to reformat and reload the macs.
Its a guess on the pcs. Guess high!
There are other advantages as well.
centerv
I'm just wondering if hard setting the virtual memory has stopped the drainage of resources...You said on May 2 that it had been 24 hours, and no problem so far. It's May 5....is it still running ok? Just curious!
ASKER
To: nbdyfool
Time flies.
It's gone for 4 days with only one low memory event and that one cleared when I quit all apps and started again (previously I'd have to reboot to clear it). Before the change in virtual memory the event would happen once a day or more frequently -- some days, many times. So, though the problem isn't completely eliminated it is greatly improved.
If you will lock the question I'll give it to you.
Since the root cause wasn't found/fixed and the problem still happens occasionally, I'd plan to give a B if that's satisfactory with you. If not, speak up.
houston
Time flies.
It's gone for 4 days with only one low memory event and that one cleared when I quit all apps and started again (previously I'd have to reboot to clear it). Before the change in virtual memory the event would happen once a day or more frequently -- some days, many times. So, though the problem isn't completely eliminated it is greatly improved.
If you will lock the question I'll give it to you.
Since the root cause wasn't found/fixed and the problem still happens occasionally, I'd plan to give a B if that's satisfactory with you. If not, speak up.
houston
That's fine with me. I'm glad it helped! I would be interested in knowing why this happens. It doesn't happen with every Win98SE system, I work tech support for a computer manufacturer, and have my hands in win98SE systems all the time. I had this problem with my home system right after I upgraded to SE (full install), and it baffled me. This was the only thing I could find to make it go away.
ASKER CERTIFIED SOLUTION
membership
This solution is only available to members.
To access this solution, you must be a member of Experts Exchange.
ASKER
I remind you again -- I don't have SE.
But, the problem did start after I installed SP1 on my original Win 98.
houston
But, the problem did start after I installed SP1 on my original Win 98.
houston
I understand....I never had the problem until I installed SE, but I have run into others that had the problem that weren't SE either. In every case, once the virtual memory was hard-set, it didn't happen any more....thanks for the points!
ASKER
To: nbdyfool
And, thanks for your help.
houston
And, thanks for your help.
houston