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Graphics on my website won't download

I've constructed a website for my son's Boy Scout troop.  The site is at www.clarksgreen251.com .  I authored the site using MS Word 2000.  Most people report that the website looks great and works fine.  But on a few computers some of the graphics on the web home page will not download.  The web page appears with placeholders where the graphics should be.  The missing graphics are Scout logos with very small file size.  They are GIF files.  But other GIF files on other pages of the site download with the page fine.  I used my home computer with a DSL connection to build and upload the site.  

Where I work we have a Dell Pentium III 500 Mhz running Windows 98 and IE 5 with a dial-up internet connection.  The Dell computer at work will not display the problem graphics on the troop website.  Whether I log on to the internet via AOL or Epix(my local ISP), the result is the same.  The same graphics will not appear on the web page with either service.  When I access the "webfolder" on the website host server from the same Dell computer, I can download the wayward graphics files independently of the web page, and view the logos in IE5 one at a time without the web page.

I've used AOL and other ISPs from other computers with dial-up connections and they download the same web page just fine with the graphics where they should be.

What might be the problem with my wayward web graphics, and how can I fix it?
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BillFiore
Asked:
BillFiore
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1 Solution
 
MikeForbesCommented:
Bill,

It appears what MSWord has created is an XML document that is being rendered.  I viewed the page and viewed source from there. It may be that your browser is not transforming (or rendering) the page correctly.

My recommendation would not to use any of the MS products for web development.  If you plan on continuing to develop your web pages you use a REAL development tool (i.e. Dreamweaver, Homesite, Go Live)  These are true web development tools that will not only help you with things that you may or may not know how to do (for example give you a list of option available for each tag) but give you true code.  The problem I find with the MS way of doing business is that they tend to try to be all too intuitive.  Frontpage for example puts in a lot of extra code that tends to make maintenance a nightmare.  Of course MS Word is NOT meant to be an HTML editor for the reasons you are writing about.

Dreamweaver has a nice feature that actually helps you clean up MSWord/HTML documents.

I would get one of those and try again.  The pages are great for an MS Word attempt though!

Mike
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BillFioreAuthor Commented:
To Mike:
Thanks for your suggestions.  I have heard before that MS Word puts a lot of excess code in its HTML documents.  Perhaps I will have to breakdown and buy some decent web authoring software.  I have not heard similiar negative reviews of Frontpage.

Since I posted my question, I have corrected the problem of graphics that do not download by replacing the graphics files with other files of similiar images.

Thanks,
Bill
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AvocadoIsleCommented:
Just an FYI (my two cents):

I agree with MikeForbes in that using Word or another editor not designed specifically for Web development is unwise.  Word inserts quite a bit of style code which is messy and not always cross-browser compatible.

However (ahem), as a developer and user of HomeSite, GoLive and FrontPage, I strongly disagree that FrontPage inserts a lot of extra code.  It will attempt to complete missing tags and also format the code if the option to preserve existing HTML is not selected under tools/page options/HTML, but it does not just add a bunch of extra HTML.  We use it as the main tool for our development because it lends itself to rapid site maintenance and updates.

Just my two cents...  :)
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What does it mean to be "Always On"?

Is your cloud always on? With an Always On cloud you won't have to worry about downtime for maintenance or software application code updates, ensuring that your bottom line isn't affected.

 
mgfranzCommented:
As a user of HomeSite for over 3 years now, I have to say it is by far the most HTML tool for the money, FrontPage is garbage, period.  If you are building an Intranet site and don't care about having to call ActiveX components that are installed with IE, and will be using IE only then FrontPage is for you, otherwise stay away from it...

As for your site, it looks like you have the PIC problem fixed, although I'm sure the pages will not load in Netscape...
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BillFioreAuthor Commented:
Thank you all for your comments.  Each contributor has endorsed a different web authoring program.  All have roundly condemed MS Word.  I'll have to do more research before choosing new web authoring software.

Bill
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mgfranzCommented:
Older versions of Word, 97 to be exact were an OK source of generating simple HTML pages...  Not anymore...

HomeSite 4.5.2 http://www.allaire.com is a renowned and well awarded HTML editor, I have used to to create .asp, .jsp, .js and more... the built in StyleSheet editor is an excellent touch!  The developers forum is outstanding and for the $80 it can't be beat!

(gee... I should be a sales guy for Allaire...)
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Eric AKA NetminderCommented:
Just my two cents... *laughing -- keep this open and you'll have enough to BUY an html editor*...

I've used about a dozen different HTML editors at one point or another, and I'd suggest doing the following:

1. Forget about FrontPage and Word as HTML editors. Both are more trouble than they're worth.

2. Visit www.tucows.com, and look under the section called Advanced HTML Editors. Besides having evaluation copies you can try, there are also a good number of shareware and freeware editors. Personally, I liked CoffeeCup, Aracnophilia, HotDog and HotMetal, but HomeSite is superior to anything else I've ever used. Dreamweaver runs a close second.

3. At the same time, download a good text editor (I use NoteTab, but EditPlus is good, too). You'll find that most HTML editors include something or other that's extraneous to what you want on your page. A text editor gives you the ability to put in ONLY what you want, and nothing else. I'll frequently use an HTML editor to build a template of sorts, and then use the text editor to change pictures and text.

Hope it helps...
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kneeaCommented:
How about using netscape composer to edit your pages.

It costs nothing and can be downloaded from the net for free.  Netsape 4.7 or 4.77 is best for this.

You can have real wysiwyg editing which is more than enough for most people.

There is plenty of help and support on the net for it too.

As a bonus you can also check your webpage with both browsers on your own pc before uploading.
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mgfranzCommented:
Netscape Composer is better than some editors, but you get what you pay for... ;-)

I have used CoffeeCup before and was quite happy with it, until I found HomeSite.  I have a copy of DreamWeaver3 but just haven't got around to using it to much... I notice it writes a lot of code that is IE only...

As for extraneous data, FrontPage is the second worse, DreamWeaver is the worst.  While a text editor will leave nothing for the immagination, HomeSite temlates can be modified to open with nothing too... in fact, the default is just a Doctype-Type, Head, Body and Html tags.

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
     <title>Untitled</title>
</head>

<body>

</body>
</html>
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mgfranzCommented:
Any action on this Bill?  

Did you get a satisfactory answer?
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BillFioreAuthor Commented:
Thanks to all respondants.

I downloaded and tried the 30 day trial version of Dreamweaver.  One nice feature for someone like me is that one can tile two windows and view the HTML code in one window and the webpage in the other.  If you highlight part of the code, the corresponding section of the webpage is highlighted also.  Or if one highlights part of the webpage, the corresponding code is highlighted.  It is a good way to learn HTML coding.  The tool for cleaning up unneccessary code in MSWord authored webpages often screws up the page, especially the sequence of graphics files referenced in the HTML code.  The thing I find least desirable about Dreamweaver is that to edit one page of an extensive site, the entire site must be downloaded to harddrive, edited, and then uploaded.  The MS products have a very nice setup for saving files to the web server and editing individual files.

I also downloaded a trial of Homesite.  I did not spend much time with it, but I think it is more appropriate for someone with more HTML savy than I have.  I am pretty much HTML illiterate.  I think that Frontpage may be the software that will meet my needs.

Thanks again for your comments.
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mgfranzCommented:
Keep playing with HomeSite... you may suprise yourself with what is can do.  The WYSIWYG funtion of HomeSSite may not be as shiny as FrontPage, but at least it writes code for ALL browsers...

It's never to late to learn something new.
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Ernest022699Commented:
Count another two pennies being tossed into the pot!

Learn HTML.  It's fairly painless and must be done if you're going to be working on Web Pages.  Period.

No matter what "web authoring package" you use, you must clean up the HTML by hand before calling it production.  Make sure it validates with the World Wide Web Consortium's free tools.

Everyone posting here has made good contributions!
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mgfranzCommented:
HomeSite 4.5.2 has an excellent built in HTML Validator that can be configured to HTML3.2 or 4.0 W3C specs, and yes, I use it religiously.

No validator is going to be 100%, even the W3C validator will miss a tag action occasionally.  But the key here is that a page built with FrontPage will fail drastically with the W3C validator, a WYSIWYG page built with HomeSite will not...

(No, I'm not a salesman with Allaire, I just love this product, I do not like the JRUN product they make thought...)

Bill, if you want, I can do a bit of ProBono work on your site if the need arises.

Mark
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BillFioreAuthor Commented:
To mqfranz,

Thanks for your offer.  That's very nice, but I enjoy fiddling with the website myself.  On your advise, I'm going to make an effort to learn the ins and out of Homesite.  Thanks for your comments.

Bill
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Ernest022699Commented:
mqfranz makes an excellent point about validation, BillFiore.  Not matter what you use to create your Pages initially, run them through the W3C validator and tweak accordingly.

I have never seen a Page built with an authoring tool (no matter which one!) which did not need at least some hand tuning.

An opinion: You've got a good start on a great Site!  Having the frames/no frames choice on the Home Page is a nice touch.

Opinion: I found the choice of yellow for the initial backgrounds unfortunate.  I found it difficult to read some of the text.  Probably white would make reading easier.

Opinion: Be consistent when using (background) colors.  There are some yellow, some olive, some blue.  Your Site will have a more consistent look and feel if you use the same color scheme for all Pages.

Just my two cents....
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mgfranzCommented:
Good poit on the colors, use them either sparingly, or to create a point.  My friend Molly, www.molly.com, is a foremost authority on the use of color and design, follow her lead and you will succeed.

There is a reason 90% of the pages you visit have a white background... <hint>
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Ernest022699Commented:
Sorry, mqfranz.  There are two big problems with www.molly.com that are color-related.  First, yellow text on a white background is hard to read.  Second, the links are forced to be yellow and NOT underlined.

Cascading Style Sheets are wonderful.  However, using them to change the appearance of links (forcing them to be un-underlined, changing the colors of visited and unvisited links to the developer's idea of what they should be) should not be done.

If Molly is a wizard, why is Mik Garrison listed as the WebMaster for her Site?

I do, however, look forward to looking at her "Color for Web Sites" book when it is available.
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mgfranzCommented:
A Web Master and a Developer are two different entities...

No style sheet here, it's all in the body; <... link="#99CC00" vlink="#FF9900" alink="#FF9900">

The colors when plugged into my test tool come out to a dirty orange and a lime green, I don't see any yellow except in the "Molly" image, maybe it's time for a new graphics card... ;-)
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Ernest022699Commented:
Sorry, mqfranz.  There are two big problems with www.molly.com that are color-related.  First, yellow text on a white background is hard to read.  Second, the links are forced to be yellow and NOT underlined.

Cascading Style Sheets are wonderful.  However, using them to change the appearance of links (forcing them to be un-underlined, changing the colors of visited and unvisited links to the developer's idea of what they should be) should not be done.

If Molly is a wizard, why is Mik Garrison listed as the WebMaster for her Site?

I do, however, look forward to looking at her "Color for Web Sites" book when it is available.
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Ernest022699Commented:
mqfranz: I hope that the following paragraph doesn't sound smart-alecky to you!  It isn't meant that way!

OK, mqfranz, please educate me (or should I make it a different question?): What IS the difference between a Developer and a WebMaster?  In this context is the Developer the person who developed the Web Site?  And doesn't a WebMaster develope and maintain Web Sites?

With my current monitor, the links appear yellow and without underlines.  The following code gives yellow links WITH underlines; the only assumption I can make is that the style sheet takes away the "decoration" of the link text.

<html>
<head>
<title>Testing colors</title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000"
link="#99CC00"
vlink="#FF9900"
alink="#FF9900">

<p>
Hello test?
</p>

<p>
<a href="">I am a link (blank).</a>
</p>

<p>
<a href="http://www.molly.com">I am a visited link (molly.com).</a>
</p>

<p>
<font color="#99CC00">I am #99CC00.</font>
</p>

<p>
<font color="#FF9900">I am #FF9900.</font>
</p>

</body>
</html>
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mgfranzCommented:
The roles can be misleading, I am both a developer and a webmaster, I have been in both situations at the same time.  But in a nutshell, a developer creates content, not necessarily graphics, thats the designers job.  A webmaster ensures the content and the graphics have the ability to be delivered, ensuring the proper utilities and applications are installed and properly set-up, permissions are set accordingly, etc... Maintenance is the job of the Web Master, but not maintenance of the content.

Clearer?
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Ernest022699Commented:
mqfranz: Thanks for drawing the distinction!  Because I'm a software engineer (a.k.a. "designer" and "developer" rolled into one), I wasn't seeing the differences among the graphic artist's piece, the developer's piece, and the webmaster's piece.  You've made it much clearer!

Any response to the yellow-on-white / no decoration on Molly's Site problem?  It must be the style sheet which is removing the underline of the links.
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mgfranzCommented:
Her entire CSS;

BODY {
          font-family : arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
          text-align : top;
}

h3 {
          font-family : arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
          font-size : 13pt;
          color :
}

P {
          font-size : 11pt;
}
         
A     {
     font-size : 11pt;
     font-family : arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
     font-weight : bold;
     text-decoration : none;
}

li {
     font-size : 11pt;
     font-family : arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
     text-decoration : none;
}
     
.note {
     font-size : 10pt;
     font-family : arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}

img {
     vertical-align: text-bottom;
}  

Of course you will see in her "A" ref;

A     {
     font-size : 11pt;
     font-family : arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
     font-weight : bold;
     text-decoration : none;
}

The Text-decoration : none,

But here is a question, if you have your browser properties set to display all <a> tags with underlines, will a CSS over-ride those parameters?  ;-)

Just to get you thinking...
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Ernest022699Commented:
mqfranz: Thanks for the CSS!  It is as I suspected; she IS removing the underline.  Told you so!  (And yes, you did get me thinking and checking.)

My browser is set to "underline links" "always".

The CSS should not override my settings, but it appears to be doing so.

Thoughts?
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mgfranzCommented:
Sorry, but it has been my experience, that CSS properties will for the most part override browser properties.  In other words, I have "underline links always" set on my IE browser, but the style sheet overwrites this value.
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Ernest022699Commented:
Yup, mgfranz, that's why it is A Bad Idea to mess with things such as "decoration" in CSS.  It is the designer's / developer's ego saying "The way I like it is better than the way the user likes it".

Don't make my links yellow.  Don't remove the underline.
Leave me alone.  If I want to change my preferences I will.

This rant should not be construed as an attack on any specific Web Site.  Too many people are guilty.
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mgfranzCommented:
You can set client-side .css in IE5
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AlexisPCommented:
I in many cases disagree and agree with removing the underline with CSS. However, to answer your questions, if the CSS is not disabled in your options, then it will over ride your browser options.  I tend to take out underlines on Menu Links which could have been made with graphics, and often look better within the layout as having no underline. I have been leaving underlines in on links in main body text often.  I never really considered that there would be a large number of people who would want them underlined no matter what. :)

As for the graphics question, something that may not have been checked but could occasionally happen is that the graphic was uploaded incorrectly (Make sure to set your upload to binary for graphics, otherwise gifs can load unusually but not be considered broken.)  It's a rare thing but has happened to me a few times.

I do reccommend learning HTML.  Some good sites for this are: http://www.htmlhelp.com, http://www.htmlgoodies.com, http://www.w3school.com

Also look for the HTML Reference Library for downloading (It is like a help program for HTML< very small and handy if you are or are not using an editor.)

I use a free and very extensive HTML editor that has many nice built in features.  It is by a company called Evrsoft and is called 1st Page and can be found at: http://www.evrsoft.com/.
I have a Web Resource section divided by skill level at my website, direct url to the page: http://www.alexisparker.com/links1frame.html

I also have more recent links at:
http://www.blink.com/members/LexiP

I hope those help you feel more confident in learning HTML. I found learning HTML easier then learning how to use the WYSIWYG editors, however combined they can both aid you in learning the trade faster. :)

Good Luck!
~Alexis
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mgfranzCommented:
"I in many cases disagree and agree..."  Alexis, you don't happen to work for the Government do you?  ;-)
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AlexisPCommented:
MgFranz, let me consult my committees and get back to you. ;)
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dij8Commented:
Interesting thread.

First point.  The image thing could be the way in which the original images were created.  I know with PhotoShop there is a "RGB" and "Indexed Color" option.  I have found that sometimes if an image is saved using Indexed Color it doesn't show on the web.  This could be a matter of graphics support (is graphics the same as audio in that it uses codecs?).  A guess would be that it could be something like that.  Which would explain why the images then showed up after being changed to other, similar images.

Second point.  Avoid wysiwyg editors if you can.  This is really dependant on your knowledge.  They still generate their own code (even HomeSite) and is usually not optimised, or truly crossbrowser compliant.

Third point.  I have used HomeSite for about two years.  And highly recommend it.  I never use the wysiwyg part but it does have one if you need it.  Microsoft make a great browser (IMHO) but would not have a clue about development for it.  Certainly not if you want to include Netscape support.  Avoid all MS editors (except maybe Notepad or Visual Interdev) at all costs.
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MoondancerCommented:
It's time to clean up this topic area and that means taking care of this question. Your options at this point are:
 
1. Award points to the Expert who provided an answer, or who helped you most. Do this by clicking on the "Accept Comment as Answer" button that lies above and to the right of the appropriate expert's name.
 
2. PAQ the question because the information might be useful to others, but was not useful to you. To use this option, you must state why the question is no longer useful to you, and the experts need to let me know if they feel that you're being unfair.
 
3.  Ask Community Support to help split points between participating experts.  Just comment here with details.
 
4.  Delete the question because it is of no value to you or to anyone else.  To use this option, you must state why the question is no longer useful to you, and the experts need to let me know if they feel that you're being unfair.
 
If you elect for option 2, 3 or 4, just post comment with details here and I'll take it from there.  We also request that you review any other open questions you might have and update/close them.  Display all your question history from your Member Profile to view details.
 
PLEASE DO NOT AWARD THE POINTS TO ME.
 
____________________________________________
 
 
 
Hi Experts:
 
In the event that the Asker does not respond, I would very much appreciate your opinions as to which Expert ought to receive points (if any) as a result of this question.  Likewise, you can also suggest that I PAQ or delete the question.
 
Experts, please do not add further "answer" information to this question.  I will be back in about one week to finalize this question.
 
Thank you everyone.
 
Moondancer :)
Community Support Moderator @ Experts Exchange
 
P.S.  Engineering has been advised about the error in the comment date/time sort order.
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Eric AKA NetminderCommented:
Not a lot of questions, but for most questioners, a rather weak batting average when it comes to responding... Move it to the PAQ, and dock his points.

Moon,

You're getting busy... *laughing*... and I'm becoming grouchy...

ep
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MoondancerCommented:
I'm sorry the client, BillFiore has not yet responded, but I did note that he was active here just recently.  Hopefully this reminder will generate the response needed.  If not, I'll revisit.  Hopefully we all smile soon.

Moondancer
Community Support Moderator @ Experts Exchange
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BillFioreAuthor Commented:
Hello, Moondancer, et al.,

I found many of the responses to my question interesting and they have opened several avenues that I want to explore when time permits.  Spurred by comments posted here, I've dabbled some with demos of Dreamweaver and Homesite.  I've also been using the freeware FirstPage.  Working with FirstPage, I've begun learning how to code HTML and used the W3C validator.  Unfortunately my job (which does not involve web authoring), my time working with the Boy Scouts, and the business courses I'm taking don't leave a lot of time to follow-up on all the suggestions that were posted.  

I appreciate all the comments.  You may delete the question or post it as answered as you see fit.  Thanks again.

Bill
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mgfranzCommented:
There is a lot of good information here... seems a shame to delete it.

I'm for a PAQ.
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AlexisPCommented:
I know this is posting area is coming to an end soon. However, I saw your last post Bill and another thought came to mind. If you want to jump forward into somemore complex html designing, I reccommending downloading freeware and linkware graphic sets. There are many places on the internet.  Check out the graphics links section at http://www.web-building.com.  Make sure to find sets that comewith the html code and graphics.  Download the html and the load it into FirstPage.  You can then play around with the code and see whats happening when you do it.  Also view the source on pages you like. That coupled with an HTML reference guide (built right into firstpage) will help you start designing more "advanced" looking pages in no time.  Or you may be able to find a nice looking and suitable set for your boyscout page as well.  Good luck with all your future designing endeavors!

Alexis Parker
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Ernest022699Commented:
Moondancer: Please, please, please make this a PAQ!  There's just too much good information (and time spent by various experts) to have it go to waste.

Please do NOT award any points to me in the process!  I learned too much (and created a question or two of my own) from the discussion here.  Thanks!
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mgfranzCommented:
One last thing, Bill, please do yourself a favor, try to not learn FrontPage, Get an excellent editor like HomeSite, www.allaire.com, it will not import BOTS or add any unnecessary code like FrontPage.

There is another Excellent editor available, AceHTML from Visicom Media Inc.  It is an awesome editor too!  Try it.
0
 
mgfranzCommented:
Well?
0
 
MoondancerCommented:
Thank you all.

Does a point split make sense to all and seem fair, to award information given that proves helplful when accessed in our PAQ?  Ernest appreciated the help here and opted not to participate in the point split.

Listening for your input.

Moondancer
Community Support Modertor @ Experts Exchange
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Eric AKA NetminderCommented:
Moon,

Do it... *grin*... As to any split, I'll defer to anyone -- doesn't matter much to me.

ep
0
 
mgfranzCommented:
Nah... I get em all!  ;-)
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Eric AKA NetminderCommented:
*laughing*...

On the other hand, maybe they should ALL go to Ernest... *smirk*... or molly...
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BillFioreAuthor Commented:
Hi All:

I'm just back from a week of vacation with no PC's or Internet.  Moondancer, I think you should split the points.

Bill
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Ernest022699Commented:
As I said before, NO POINTS TO ME, please!
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dij8Commented:
There really is a lot of good stuff here.  The original question though is why are the images not downloading.  It can not be confirmed I guess but what I said about colour palettes is something I have experienced myself.  Not digging for the points here but I think it is the answer to the question.

With all the valuable information added, although not answering the original question but rather continuing where BillFiore took it, a points split may be appropriate.  Either that or I think I answered the question.
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mgfranzCommented:
dij8, really?  What part of your comment "answered" the Q?
0
 
dij8Commented:
>>> I know with PhotoShop there is a "RGB" and "Indexed Color" option.  I have found that sometimes if an image is saved using Indexed Color it doesn't show on the web. ... Which would explain why the images then showed up after being changed to other, similar images.
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mgfranzCommented:
Where does it say that Bill is using PhotoShop?  And I have never ran into this problem with RGB...
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dij8Commented:
I am not saying that the problem is PhotoShop.  I have experienced this with Indexed Color when using PhotoShop (not RGB).  Other programs may cause similar errors.  That is all I am suggesting.  Other than I am the only one that addressed the original question.  Which I also stated then turned into something completely different and was then accurately handled by many others.
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MoondancerCommented:
Point split for contributions here have now been completed, details follow.  To claim the split points not awarded here, please comment in your respective links below.

Points for AvocadoIsle  http://www.experts-exchange.com/jsp/qManageQuestion.jsp?qid=20163094
Points for mgfranz  http://www.experts-exchange.com/jsp/qManageQuestion.jsp?qid=20163095
Points for kneea  http://www.experts-exchange.com/jsp/qManageQuestion.jsp?qid=20163097
Points for AlexisP  http://www.experts-exchange.com/jsp/qManageQuestion.jsp?qid=20163098
Points for dij8  http://www.experts-exchange.com/jsp/qManageQuestion.jsp?qid=20163099
Ernest  declined points
ericpete  declined points

Please comment here if questions, I'll respond.

Thank you,
Moondancer
Community Support Moderator @ Experts Exchange
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