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wireless lan

Posted on 2001-09-18
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i am looking for wireless lan equipment. i need ~10km range, with speeds from 2mb\sec to 11mb\sec. i dont want to spend more then $US1000 on each point. anyone know of any good products?
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Question by:sash031299
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by:svdamme
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10km range?????????
the only thing that has that kind of range with that kind of speed would be fiber and that doesn't come in your kind of price range....
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by:svdamme
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Wlan 802.11b only provides 11mb/sec with a range of 25 to 50 meters (office and open areas respectively)
speed rates drop beyond those distances
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by:andyalder
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Something like www.alvarion.com/Products_2020.asp?tNodeParam=15 will give you the 10Km at 11Mb spec you want but doubt it's under $1000 per end point. Plus you will probably need a radio license. Finally you'll need pretty tall buildings because you need line of sight.
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by:sash031299
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sorry. i forgot one bit of info. there can be a base station (nothing that needs fcc lic). this can be worth up to $US5000
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by:svdamme
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i stand corrected
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by:andyalder
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10Km in the 2.4GHz unlicensed band is pushing it a bit but you might get away with it. I would be interested in what price they quote you for the kit.
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by:bsadlick
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I can't believe that these guys at Alvarion are going to get 1km much less 10km. Signal attenuation at that distance has got to be extremely high. Couple that with the fact that they are using the crowded 2.4Ghz range, and I believe that you will not see 11mbps.

What is the application? There may be better solutions than this....
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by:svdamme
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i guess the only way to get that speed over that distance properly IS fiber which isn't cheap or easaly achieved..
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by:jwalsh88
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Actually most 802.11 based wireless outdoor building to building bridges should be able to get atleast 15 Miles with High Gain antennas  Problem isn't that.  Problem is you seem to think it will only cost a couple thousand dollars.  Well think about this.  Where do you have a link that long that will be a very clean line of sight?  Where will you put the Antennas I have never had a customer with a link even half that long that didn't need to have a tower constructed to place the antenna on.  That will probably cost somewhere near $50,000 and up depending on the height needed.  Thats just one site , if you need a tower at the other end thats double the above mentioned price.  Also, the equipment is exensive I would say a couple thousand dollars per bridge then the cabling and antenna are going to be twice that amount.  The speed is easy I can give you a solution that will do full duplex 100Mbps for under $50,000 you just need to find a way to provide total line of sight between the two sites.  So, if cost is a concern you can't go with anything other then a Point to Point t-1 really.  If the sites were closer together it would be easier but they're not.  Sorry.
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by:jwalsh88
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If you have exactly the right situation you could get this done for probably $6,000 dollars equipment cost and I would say someone would charge you $2,000 dollars a day for installation.  That's Ideal.  Lets say you buy the equipment without have a site and land survey done , that cost could turn into $250,000 dollars to get it done.  I have seen it before.
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by:bsadlick
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Has anybody looked at p2p laser solutions? The range isn't 10km, more like 5km, but you can get high bandwidth.
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by:jwalsh88
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Yes laser solutions are great but very expensive and you must plan for them.  you should never spend that kind of money and have no reliability so you need redundant links with seperate geographic locations.  Maybe one pair at south end of buildings and one pair at north end.  other wise a bird landing on the edge of the roof of your building or a window washer stopping in front of your laser will kill all communication.  Also, it's not very weather or even sun friendly.  Wireless is much more stable
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by:jwalsh88
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Wireless also has much better distances.
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by:bobj_kirk
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Hello everybody,

Just thought I would throw in my $.02.

I live about 1KM away from the office and I have had a wireless LAN connection for about 7 years now. I started out first with a 2Mbps WaveLan card made by Lucent and marketed by Solektek. This card operated at 905 MHz and I used a 6DB omni antenna at one end and a 14DB Yagi at the other end. The whole setup cost me around around $1800 in 1994. The old WaveLan cards used a 75 ohm antenna so it could use normal RG59 cable TV coax for the antenna, but I had a fairly long lead, so I used RG6U cable. I mounted the antennas on 20 foot aluminum pipes strapped to the side of my house and to the building penthouse at work. I did all the install work myself. You can probably pick up such a setup used on eBay for a couple of hundred dollars. However, I would not really recommend it in my area because there is too much traffic on the 905 MHz band.

I upgraded this setup to an Aironet 803.11 card operating at 2.4 GHz about 3 years ago. This is a PCMCIA card installed in a PCI adapter and installed in a WIN NT box. The card has a 50 ohm antenna connection, so I had to use RG8U cable. For antennas, I got some 24 DB parabolic dishes which have been completely reliable. I used the same masts as before. I am reasonably sure that you could go 10KM or further with these antennas. The upgrade cost me around the same price as the original installation, that is about $1800. I have seen these cards for sale much cheaper nowadays. I am pretty sure you could duplicate my setup for well under $1,000.

For the future, several companies are supposed to be announcing an upgrade to 802.11 (called 802.11a I think) which is supposed to operate at 54 Mbps. I will probably buy one of these once they become generally available.

A few things to look out for if you want to get 10KM distance. Look for other transmiters that may interfere with your setup. If possible, configure the setup to avoid pointing at the interference. In fact, you can sometimes get better performance by pointing away from your target somewhat just to avoid interference. If you have trouble, change your polarity, that is rotate the plane of your Yagi by 90 degrees. You can point right at a source of interference if you are 90 degrees out of phase and it will cause you very little problem. I think the parabolic dishes are the best way to minimize interference. They have a very narrow beam and must be properly aligned, but they get no interference unless it is directly in their path.

If you use TCP/IP, do not use the older cards without builtin error correction. Radio errors are treated by TCP/IP as ethernet congestion so the protocol slows right down. The error detection/correction shields TCP/IP from seeing the errors and bypasses this problem.

If you use more than two stations without an "access point" router, then configure the connection as several subnets with a central PC acting as a router. Then configure TCP/IP to force the outlying stations to communicate through the central PC instead of trying to talk directly to each other.

Of course before you try any of this, you should carefully look over the sites you want to use. Get up on the roof as high as you can with a pair of binoculars. Make sure you have a clear unimpeded view of your target. Look for any other antennas and try to determine what they are. If possible, borrow some cards and antennas and try out the connection. You can never guarantee it will work for sure until you try it.

-Bob

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by:jwalsh88
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Bob, I spent 2 years installing this stuff for a living. let me tell you, 1KM is a joke as far as how hard it is to install and get right, 10KM is very hard unless you live in either a farmland, where there is no trees just flat land, or in a major downtown city, have access to both rooftops and have a perfect clear line of site.  If you have one of those situations now you just need to get your parabolic antennas , that has a very tight radius some as low as 7 degrees vertical and 12 horizontal, alligned correctly.  Believe me this is a job for professionals most the time.  If you don't have those easy situations then more then likely you will need a tower.  Mast are okay for short distance like under 2KM but more then that and you really should have a tower.

To answer your question, there is wireless equipment that will do what you want, in fact almost all of them will.  There is no special equipment for long range , just high gain antennas.  and none of this is as cheap as you are going to want it to be.  especially if you don't have perfect conditions and can't handle the work yourself.
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by:sash031299
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thanks for all your help. i have never seen this many people in one discution before :). just to clear somethings up. i have "line of site" of my target. the distance i need to cover is closer to 2 km, but i would not mind having 10 for another link i also need to do. fiber, ro other cable, is not a optine becasue this is a built up area. once again, thanks for all your help, but i would like to see some "products" as well, so some links would be helpfull. even if they are just to other sites that can provide help. last of all, the 2.4ghz range in my area is not used but alot of people. traffic on the band is not a problem. thanks again:)
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jwalsh88 earned 100 total points
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One of the best products for price/performance is the
Stratum MP from Proxim.  It is roughly $2500 dollars a piece and is almost twice as fast 802.11b products like Cisco-Aironet.  Also, has the best security of any wireless product I have seen.  Unlike 802.11b's sorry security.
If you want best managebility in the 802.11b sector then look at avaya's wireless outdoor router system.
Best performance in the 802.11b sector would go to Cisco.
If you need more speed then Cisco's real world throughput of 5.5Mbps or Stratum MP's 8-9Mbps then look into the Stratum 20 or 100 line from Proxim.
Stratum 20 provides 20+Mbps throughput, full duplex.
Stratum 100 provides 100+Mbps throughput, full duplex.

Go here for Stratum MP/20/100:
http://www.proxim.com/products/all/stratum/index.html

Go here for Cisco-Aironet 350 Bridge:
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/44/jump/wireless.shtml

Go here for Avaya Outdoor router:
http://wwwdb.avaya.com/pls/bcs/syst.main?p_id=153&p_keyword=

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by:jwalsh88
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I am sorry the stratum MP costs is down to $1500 on CDW
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by:timberbt
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So either way you're screwed if you don't own the land between the two sites and someone builds a 20 story building eh?  :)  
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by:jwalsh88
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Exactly.  Thats why I said at that distance you really should have a tower, with way more clearance then you could ever need.  Just get it above a line of trees and in 2 years you lose your link as the trees grow.  Alot of pitfalls in wireless building to building.  But alot of benifits.  Mostly cost/performance.
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by:andyalder
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As long as the laser is high enough power it should be able to burn through offending structures and create it's own line of sight ;)

I don't think you should pay for a survey though, just post a link to a map like www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?grid2map?X=406640&Y=288555&arrow=Y&zoom=1&largeuk=P and we can make some estimate as to if it will work or not.
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by:jwalsh88
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You can't possible estimate for multi path, reflection, let alone height of trees or things like that from those pictures.  Let alone frequency interference.
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by:jwalsh88
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if you are going to do it yourself, buy Avaya as it has the best tools for setting it up.
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by:sash031299
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i have contacted proxim and i think that is going to be the best thing to get.i will, however, keep this post open for a bit longer:)
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by:timberbt
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At this point in our discussion it seems reasonable to suggest launching your own communications sattelite.  It may be slightly (read astronomically) above you quoted limit, but that could solve pretty much all the problems mentioned above.  For good receiving speeds just remember you're going to need a huge dish for reception at each site.  I believe the 2.4gb/sec systems used for some of the sattelite imaging technologies uses a 15 or 20 meter dish.  So just remember to reserve some room for that.  Other than that it should be a peace of cake!  

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by:sash031299
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not a bad idea. i will contact nasa today :)
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by:timberbt
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Done and done!  You'll really just need Nasa permission, but you're going to need to through a private contractor.  Someone like Lockheed Martin.  Qualcomm might be able to help you too.  You just accept that comment as an answer any time you want.  ;)  

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by:sash031299
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thanks for all your help. the nasa idea was good, but turned out to be more then $5000. :)

thanks everyone
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by:timberbt
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On a related note....you should take a look at some stuff I just heard of recently.  In the US on several Indian Reservations out west, they've implemented a large wireless network via relay stations.  It runs at 45mbit/sec and they have some huge expansion plans for it.  Called HPWREN check it out here...
http://www.npaci.edu/online/v5.4/hpwren.html

Enjoy.
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