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Windows 98 trouble accessing Windows 2000 resources

Posted on 2002-03-09
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I have a network of 5 computers.  Computer A is a Novell server (about to be retired, but needed a short time longer).  Computer B is a Win98 laptop.  Computers C, D, and E are all Win2k Pro desktops.  The four workstations all see the Novell server without trouble.  The three Win2k machines see the Win98 laptop and it's resources without trouble (albeit slower than when seeing each other).  But, the Win98 laptop sees only one of the Win2k machines resources without trouble.  The Win98 laptop does see the other two Win2k machines in network neighborhood but sees their resources only about 1 out of 10 tries.  Because of this problem, the laptop boots without seeing the Win2k's mapped shared printer about 90% of the time, giving the "Network name cannot be found" message when double clicking on the Win2k's computer name in network neighborhood .  I've changed the laptop NIC, changed the patch cable, changed the hub, updated the laptop NIC driver, reloaded all the laptop networking components, reinstalled service pack 2 on the Win2k machines, checked for virus, installed all critical updates to all computers, rebooted computers and hub many times --- all to no avail.  The Win98 laptop keeps seeing the Win2k machines in network neighborhood, but just won't attach to their resources about 90% of the time.  All the Win2k machines continue to see each other and each other's resources without trouble.  Microsoft simply said to reload service pack 2 --- which didn't help.  One interesting note:  All four workstations use to be Win98 until I wiped and loaded Win2k on three of them.  Back when they were all Win98, we had no resource connection problems at all.  Now that three have Win2k, the Win98 guy has trouble.  Any ideas?
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Question by:firehawk
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by:adowns
ID: 6853153
Make sure the workgroup in the network settings is set to the same workgroup as all the other machines are. Also you will have to login to the machine, if you click cancel you will not be able to see any computers in network neighborhood.
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by:firehawk
ID: 6853175
adowns,
The workgroup is the same on all machines.  It does attach 10% of the time.  I mentioned that the Win98 machines does see the other Win2k machines in network neighborhood.
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by:GUEEN
ID: 6853226
Enable the guest account on w2K.
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by:GUEEN
ID: 6853232
Also make sure that the share names on win2k are less then 12 characters long.
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by:stevenlewis
ID: 6853351
try an entry in the lmhosts file using the #PRE and #DOM
info on lmhosts
http://www.realcomputerguy.com/lmhosts.htm
not e the file must ber named lmhosts no extension, not lmhosts.sam, just "lmhosts"
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by:AvonWyss
ID: 6854297
Enabling the guest account is a security problem. Better is to make sure that the user name and password used by the Win98 guy is known by the Windows 2000 machines.

Windows 2000 has access control lists for each resource, specifying for each user what rights he/she has. Only users which are entitled to use the specified resource can use it. When a connection is established, the one which wants to access shared reources will have to authenticate itself on the other machine. This is done automatically, but will only succeed if the user exists with the same password on the machine to be accessed.

Windows 98 only handles share-controlled access by default. That is, you specify a share and the rights on it, and everyone (regardless of user name) will be able to access it. There is a possibility to use a password, but this is not per user but rather per share. That's why everyone can access the 98 machine while the 2000 machines are more restrictive.
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by:firehawk
ID: 6854417
everyone,
The guest account is disabled, because it's not used.  All needed accounts are enabled without passwords (as no security is used here).  All computer and share names are less than 8 characters long.  As for lmhosts file, I've not needed it before, and all IP addresses are from a DHCP server in an existing DSL router -- so I don't have static IP's to enter in an lmhost file.  Note that I mentioned my originial scenario works 10% of the time.  If there was a problem with authentication or passwords, I wouldn't be able to use the resources at all.  I can about 10% of the time.  I'm suspecting a bug or registry setting at this point.  It's almost as though the Win2k machine doesn't give the Win98 machine enough time to attach.  Or, the Win98 machine doesn't wait long enough for the Win2k machine to respond.  Maybe this is why it does connect about 10% of the time?  One more piece of info I forgot to mention in the original question:  This network was functioning properly for about 3 months after I installed the Win2k.  It only last week began to have this Win98 share access problem.  By chance, we installed critical updates about the time this started.  Anybody have any trouble with the last group of critical updates for Win98 or Win2k?
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by:stevenlewis
ID: 6854439
I have a network of 5 computers
for only 5 machines static ip's are easy to setup
when you are having this problem, on the problem machine go to a prompt and type ipconfig /all |more and make sure they are getting a proper ip address
try and ping the other boxes
also try adding NetBEUI ot the w2k boxes (and the w98 box if not already)
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by:firehawk
ID: 6854495
stevenlewis,
I don't think it's an IP problem, since all machines get a dynamic IP from the router without trouble and all machines access internet without trouble (including the Win98 guy).  I had NetBEUI on all machines originally, but removed it as an attempt to solve this very problem --- to no avail.  Removing NetBEUI had absolutely no effect either way.  The Win98 guy can ping the Win2k guys without trouble, since TCP/IP works ok over the entire LAN.  It's the share accessing that has me stumped.  The only thing I can think of that I haven't tried is reinstalling Win98.  But, to do this correctly, I would need to wipe the original install and reinstall all the applications.  That would take about 5 hours --- and that is no gaurantee to be a fix.  I would waste 5 hours of time and headache.  However, I will try this if nobody comes up with a solution that works.  I was suspecting a registry network protocol timing issue fix...
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by:stevenlewis
ID: 6854518
The Win98 guy can ping the Win2k guys without trouble
wel you have connectivity
can you do a find computer and locate the other machine by NETBIOS name?
does it see itself in network neighborhood?
What message do you get exactly?
We are a ways away from a format/reinstall
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by:firehawk
ID: 6854615
The Win98 guy does see each of the three Win2k guys in FIND COMPUTER.  The Win98 guy always sees all the Win2k guys in his nethood.  He also sees himself in nethood.  The error is "Network name cannot be found " when the Win98 guy double clicks one of the two troublesome Win2k computer names in his nethood.  However, if he keeps clicking on the computer name over and over, it will eventually show the resources (about 1 out of 10 times)!!  Oddly, one of the Win2k machines always shows correctly even though all 3 were installed from scratch and have the identical configurations and updates.
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by:stevenlewis
ID: 6854633
there are no spaces in the computer names are there?
can you map a drive with net use from the prompt?
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by:firehawk
ID: 6854803
There are no spaces in the computer names.  I did not try to map from a command prompt.  I will try that tomorrow (today is Sunday and the office is closed).
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by:MPimentel
ID: 6855771
Well, if you still need help with this, you can e-mail me @ MPimentel@CaliforniaConsumer.Org I am 95% sure that the problem is the master browser that gets elected depending on the order you turn the machines on, you should turn off the "automatic" option on the win98 machines ans tweak a registry setting on the 2000 machines. Then  designate ONE machine that will act as browse master and leave it always on or turn it on first. Here is an excellent explanation and procedure to make your encironment work:
http://www.wown.com/j_helmig/guidneth.htm
This article explains how to disable master browser in win98 machines, on windows 2000 machines, change the value of the key MaintainServerList in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Browser\Parameters to No.

To check what services each machine is registering, at the command prompt type NBTSTAT -N you should get a ist of names with the values 00,01,03,20 that are Workstation, Other Messenger and File Server respectivelly. For the Browse master computer, you should get an additional one that says _MS.BROWSE_

Another thing to know is that windows 2000 will try to find resources the following way:
1. DNS Server (which you dont have)
2. Cached names in memory.
3. Host File
4. Broadcast.

Since your computers resolve names randomly, there is no cache and you dont have a host file, there\fore all machines shout out loud trying to resolve names and you get "Unable to browse the network" or simply some resources are accessible ond others are not. So, having a host file under c:\windows (for 98 machines) or c:\winnt for 2000 is a good idea, but NOT strictly necessary, besides, if you are using a router as DHCP, the ips for each maschine might change and you would end up maintaining a host list for a 5 computer network.

Even when you have a DNS server, the windows explorer on win98 or win200 will always use broadcast to resolve names and asking the browse master, thats why you are able to ping but not to access resources.

As you see the role of browse master is Microsoft implementation of networking and not always works fine, specially if you are in mixed OS's. that's when Net BIOS over TCP/IP comes to the picture.

Well, hope this helps. feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions.

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by:stevenlewis
ID: 6855788
MPimentel  ! Welcome to E-E! Its common courtesy to provide comments unless you know your answer is the only answer and is 300% correct and is what the questioner is looking for and will fix their problem. Please don’t take this personally, (others could let you know before I and not so diplomatically) I made the same mistake when I first arrived and someone was nice enough to point it out to me (It hurt my feelings, but I soon realized its teamwork that’s used here). This accomplishes a couple of things: First: it doesn't lock the question allowing more exposure to other experts allowing a faster fix (many problems require an interactive dialogue to troubleshoot them properly), Secondly: it gives the questioner the option to make an award based on the best comment that helped the most in fixing their problem and it is also is common courtesy to other experts.  Again welcome and look forward to working with you in the future, a lot of teamwork is used at this forum, as you will see! :>)  Quote shamelessly stolen from Dave, Thanks again Dave

Your answer may be correct, and I hope it is, after all the main goal here is to help the questioner, but when you propose an answer it removes the "accept comment as answer" button thereby robbing the questioner of the choice to choose which expert helped the most. If your comment is chosen by the questioner, you will be awarded the points.
Thank you  
Steve  





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by:MPimentel
ID: 6856954
Well, I am glad that there still respect and courtesy and I apologize for the inconvenience. Now I know.
I truly hope that the questioneer find the answers he needs and we can help him fix those issues. Hopefully he will post comments.
Is there a way to roll back my proposed answer and turn it into a comment? Maybe this is a design issue that EE guys should look into. I can see that the users have found a work around.

Thanks Steven Lewis.
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by:firehawk
ID: 6857965
MPimentel,

I really thought you had it, but that did not fix the problem.  I set the Win98 guy's browse master to disabled and all the Win2k guys set to "no" on MaintainServerList (except the browse master guy -- his is set to Auto), and only the important Win2k guy is set to be a browse master.  After rebooting everyone (and even letting the browse master guy boot first), my problem persists.  The Win98 guy still sees everyone in nethood, but accesses the Win2k resources only about 10% of the tries.  In other words, this attempt had no effect.  However, I suspect you might be on the right track -- I just can't think of another pertinent setting.
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by:GUEEN
ID: 6857990
>>All needed accounts are enabled without passwords
so the same accounts exist on each computer (same names and spelling with no password) correct?

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by:MPimentel
ID: 6858026
See, I had similar problems in mixed os and the TCP/IP
stack sometimes plays tricks on you. Something I missed was to say that after you disable it, all computers should be introcuded to the browse master and that is not only accomplished by re-booting the machines in specific order, do this at every machine: nbtstat -R
This will reload the netBIOS tables and re-register names. Also, check the the browse master machine has the _MS.BROWSE_ service registered (nbtstat -n)

The worst case scenario would be to remove the ip stack from all machines, reinstall it and make them members of a different named workgroup. This to REALLY leave behind the conflicting one. But i think you should try release and renew the IP settings prior to that (ipconfig/release[renew] for win2k and ipconfig/release_all[renew] for 98).

Sometimes its easier in a small environment to just release ip's, shutdown everything and get a win2k and a 98 to talk to eachother and then roll-out the settings. another thing that just came to my mind is that there might be policies in the win200 machines preventing the access.
Keep me posted.

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by:stevenlewis
ID: 6858714
MPimentel
Thank you , and look forward to working with you  in the future
Steve

firehawk, were you able to map drives from the w98 box to the ones he can't see, but can find with find -->computer?
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by:firehawk
ID: 6861490
MPimentel,
Thanks for more suggestions I hadn't thought of.  Unfortunately, none of that helped either.  At this point, we're thinking of wiping the Win98 off and putting Win2k in it's place, since none of the Win2k guys have any problem with each other.  I was hoping that I didn't have to do that.  I still suspect some kind of timing issue since the Win98 guy still connects a small part of the time without changing any settings.  You can sit there in his nethood and double click a Win2k guy over and over and sometimes it shows the resources and sometimes not.  Since it does work some of the time, I believe settings are correct.  But since it can't find the Win2k computer some of the time, I wonder about TCP/IP timing issues between Win98 and Win2k...
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by:firehawk
ID: 6861498
stevenlewis,
Cannot map drives or printers to the Win2k guy even though I can "FIND" it.  However, that is only intermittant.  Sometimes I can !!
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by:MPimentel
ID: 6861794
No problem Fire. I was thinking last night, that possibly you have on the 98 machines, the client for microsoft networks set up for windows logon instead of windows networks. I trully hav had that experience and my first step is always to remove all the services in the nethood properties, reboot and reinstalle them.
I can assure you that what you are going to do is better (all in windows 2000) for time lenght to troubleshoot, but its more rewarding to find out why.

Also, you said you had a Novell server, so if you are using IPX then the problem might as well be the binding order in the NIC's. but that's just another thought.

If you want email me @ MPimentel@californiaconsumer.org and we could get on the phone to fix this. see ya.
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by:MPimentel
ID: 6861803
Also, i suggest install from scratch rather than upgrade.
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by:firehawk
ID: 6861845
MPimentel,
Binding order.  Interesting, I hadn't thought of that.  I'll check that tomorrow and let you know if that solved the problem before we wipe Win98.  By chance, the two Win2k guys that are hard to reach do have IPX protocol installed, and the Win2k guy that's easy to reach doesn't.  You may have something there.  Will let you know...
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by:Moondancer
ID: 6912944
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by:firehawk
ID: 6915301
Unfortunately, nothing here solved my problem.  At first, I thought changing the binding order or adjusting master browser had helped -- but later discovered they didn't.  So, I'm now at the point where I'm going to give up and wipe Win98 and install Win2k on this laptop.  That will make all the machines Win2k and therefor all of them should be happy.
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MPimentel earned 300 total points
ID: 6915720
If its a laptop, sometimes the infrared port causes problems, deactivate it.

-remove all the ip stack from the 98 machine including the microsoft for windows network and file and print sharing services and deactivate and delete all the lan or virtual olan connections.

-then check the version of the NETAPI.DLL on the 98 laptop to be latest version (dont recall the latest one) but take it from a win2000 machine.
Logon into safe mode in the 98 machine and delete the existing ones and then replace them with your copies from the 2k machine by the way, on the 98 the file is under c:\windows\system32 and in 2k c:\winnt\system32

Replace both neatapi.dll and netapi32.dll.

-reboot and reinstall the clients for ms networks, the file and print sharing (disable master browser) and re-join the computer to the domain.

If this does not work the just reinstall. I have had the same issues and at least one of the thing that I have told you has worked. Good luck and post your coments more often.

Cheers
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by:Moondancer
ID: 7082219
Zero additional responses, since last entry (accepted answer), thus finalized by Moondancer - EE Moderator
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