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DLink704 vs WinPoET

Posted on 2002-05-20
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Last Modified: 2013-12-14
My ISP issues it's user WinPoET, a Wind River PPP-over-Ethernet utility. I have 2 PC's running Win98.

When the DI704 is connected as a HUB ONLY, using the front connectors, 1 PC can access the Web and ping all over from a DOS prompt.

However, when I allow the DI704 to connect, both PC's can access the Web at the same time (good!), but we cannont ping some common sites from a DOS prompt (bad!).

Our ISP, a local mom-and-pop telephone outfit, refuses to "support" home networking.

I called DLink, and they think it's an ISP problem. The ISP says I'm the only one having this problem. Any help/ideas/sympathy would be most appreciated!

-karl
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Question by:kfrick
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by:kfrick
ID: 7022990
upon reading, a bit more info is in order.....

When we connect using the HUB ONLY, each PC must connect with it's own version of WinPoET. Usually, the first one to try wins, and the other PC must wait.

When we let the DI704 connect, we do not have to start WinPoET from either PC, and both PC's have the same ping problem......

-karl
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7023235
I could be missing something here so a few clarifications are in order.

1. Does your ISP account issue a static IP address or is it DHCP?

2. Does your account with the ISP have more than one IP address issued, i.e. 2 ips  or 2 connections?

3. When you say you connect with both PC's to the internet but cannot ping certain sites - a. is it just the ping that is not responsive, can you go to the site in the browser b. is the non responsive site the same on both computers?

4. your conversation with D Link verified that you had correctly setup everything?

5. why all the pinging?

6. what in particular is it you wish to know?

Look forward to your responses

ITsy

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by:kfrick
ID: 7023826
Some answers...

1) My ISP did not issue me a static IP addy.

2) According to the original literature, my connection will allow 2 PC's using a hub to share the account. But they also said that they don't support home networking....

3) No response from said sites. For example, www.weather.com is not accessible without using WinPoET.

4) Yes, DLink said everything is connected properly, plus I've been connecting PC gear together since the CBM PET days....

5) DLink suggested that as a quick method to verify connectivity.

6) It almost seems that there is some magic that occurs between the DSL modem (or the WinPoET software) and my ISP that allows more sites to come thru. Really, I'm at my wits end over this....everyone says this DI704 should do a gret job, and I believe it should! At this point, I'm almost ready to go try a Linksys unit just to compare results!

I have tried setting the "DeMilitarized Zone" settings of the DI704 to my PC's IP addy, but that didn't help either.

I have 3 PC-age kids plus wifey and I, and right now only 2 PC's....but I'm sure more are on the way (PC's, not kids!). I'd really like everybody to be able to browse concurrently.

-karl

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by:highstar1
ID: 7024360
I just tried to ping www.weather.com from my T3 connection. It gave no response. Some web sites have thier ping service disabled. Sites can enable or disable any service they wish to. So ping is not fool proof unless you know that the target machine has the service enabled.
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by:highstar1
ID: 7024367
I am able to connect to www.weather.com using port 80 (web server service port) using my T3 connection.
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by:kfrick
ID: 7024388
Thanks for the info, hs.....

I know little about this whole IP port business, except that it exists...I don't know how to manipulate it for my system.....

The DI704 "log" also contains information on PAD? events, but I don't know if these are helpful.....

This problem has been around for a while.....and it is evolving.....for example, several months ago we used to not be able to browse "www.barbie.com" without WinPoET, now we can.....too strange!

-karl
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by:highstar1
ID: 7024555
Does your ISP supply you your DNS addresses.
Some ISP's run filters that block or allow access to specific IP addresses. I'm not familiar with WinPoET.
Is WinPoET required to be used by your ISP?
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7025474
I will start by saying that I am still a bit fuzzy on the actual core problem. This is probably from my being a more "see it" and understand it person.

If the goal is to connect more than one pc to the internet at the same time, then it appears that the solution of using the DLink has in fact worked and is supported by the statement of " However, when I allow the DI704 to connect, both PC's can access the Web at the same time (good!)".  And I interpret "access" as being browser opens and goes to some homepage on the net, and that you can get to one or more other sites on each PC concurrently. (Of course if this is not a correct understanding then all the rest is probably just useless bits.)

This would be expected because the ISP, as I understand it, has set up a single account with 1 IP assigned dynamically, the DLink is getting this IP and using it to represent others PCs in the mini network when needed.  It in turn has assigned a sub-ip to each unit that says you are number 1, you are number 2,etc.  Each pc sends out its request for the internet, the DLink sends it along and when a response comes back it distributes the information to the correct PC.  Thus the goal of multiple PC Internet connection happens.

Now when you use the DLink ONLY as a hub and try to make the multiple connection you still need to get into the ISP and WinPoet enables this.  However, you still only have one assign connection therefore number 1 goes gets the connection and signs in.  Number 2 attempts but cannot because it is already in use, thus it must wait.  So to get the multiple connection via the winpoet would be to use internect connection sharing ICS, which gives machine 1 the server position to all others, it uses the winpoet to establish the connection and the others don't use winpoet they just go through number 1.   But this is what the DLINK does for you and really in a better fashion.

WinPoet by the way, is really just a more refined type of dialup software that recognizes the point to point connection nature of DSL allowing the ISP to integrate rather "dumb DSL modems" into an existing dial up and account validation network.  
 
Now the not being able to ping various sites, can be a combination of things, from too much traffic on the web, to bad connection by the ISP to the web thus not being able to service all the accounts they have, to filters at various points, starting in your machine IE security settings, to cybersitter software, to filters applied as "protection" by the ISP, to any number of things.
And it might be frustrating trying to sort it all out.

So it seems to me like you had it working, but maybe got distracted by not being able to get to certain sites, which may really be just traffic issues at the ISP or somewhere upstream of them.

On the point of "pinging", well this is a rudimentary method of testing for connectivity.  However, as stated it can be unreliable, and the results require proper interpretation.  Also the actions you take can be different depending on if you are pinging the end IP address or pinging the domain name.  If it is the address then there can be a route problem or a defense in place that may or maynot be fixable.  If it is the domain name, www.something.com, then it is most likely a conflict of domain name resolution, ie. DNS, and that could well be in the setup of the DLink in its not "passing through" this type of request for the ISP to handle since it is only supposed to resolve ip names for its little subnet.
So were the pings to ip addresses, or domain names?

A couple side notes:

When the ISP says they "don't support" networking, it really means they don't want to figure things out too much, that they lose money on networked connections and thus quietly discourage them, and YOU never want to tell them it is one of your networked units having a problem. :-)

Also, www.barie.com was down for a time awhile back when the site address got hijacked and ended up being redirected to a porn site, even Barbie didn't know about it.  It was a shocker and just shows to frailty of internet these days.

So with all this editorial comment it seems like you had things working, set them back up and then kind of keep a log of where you can't get to and what time of day, etc.  If a pattern develops you might then be able to narrow down action to take.

I will monitor any response you have and if there is anything additional I can offer I will be glad to.

ITsy
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7025682
sorry about the poor formatting, wrote elswhere pasted here came out baaaaad.
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by:kfrick
ID: 7027145
Thanks for all the informed info, ITsy....

I agree that the big picture of things "Seems to be working" via the DI704.

What I can't figger out is this: My favorite example is the Weather Channel, www.weather.com.......

When connected via WinPoET, I can browse to www.weather.com almost any time at all. So here I am browsing weather.com, I go downstairs and re-configure the connections to allow the DI704 to connect, and bingo....no weather.com! THAT's the frustrating part.....I can go immediately back to WinPoET and get to the site again......

I guess I thought it was possible that WinPoET was giving some sort of "secret handshake" to my ISP, but I didn't really think so....

And my ISP has a section on setting up PPPoET via WindowsXP, without using WinPoET, so that also fuels the fire that this whole mess should just plain work.....

????#@(&*@&@@*&^%#?????!!!!!!!! - (i'm frustrated!)

Thanks again.

-karl


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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7027940
I would agree with your frustration.  But then as a programmer haven't you ever had code which should work, does work in most instances, but for some small even obscure reason it doesn't?  Well we are here again.

I looked over the DLink install/user manual, along with the FAQs, and while being rather straight forward there are a few points that are not definitive and may or may not be contributing to the frustration.

Not going into detail on each they are: 1) cloning of the mac address during setup 2)use of multiple DHCP layers, i.e. DHCP from ISP, DHCP to your local network, 3)recycling of modem after changes are made, 4) action to release/renew IPs while troubleshooting, and 5) possible conflict between WinPoet existance on system when DLink is to be used.

At this point then I guess you have to evaluate your choices:
1. Recontact DLink and see if there are any know problems between the use of their unit and systems which WinPoet has been/is installed on but not in use.

2. Contact the ISP and ask them, of course greasing the way with generous helpings of gratuitous comments about their fine service and prior assistance, if any one on their support staff has a Dlink and could you speak with them, also you might see if asked directly do they register the MAC address.  (This is stated in the manual in regards to cloning during initial setup)

3. Eliminate the DHCP by the DLINK using the alternate setup of assigning IPs to the individual units and directly input the required settings, in particular the DNS addresses as enumerated by the ISP. This would be to  
remove the DHCP on DHCP conflict potential.  If you chose to do this I would remove the WinPoet from one machine, take the other machine offline, and concentrate on getting one unit to work fully, including www.weather.com, and then get the next one up and working using like settings.

4. Forget the whole DLINK thing and go get a Linksys and see if it makes any difference. Not to be expected, but sometimes just going through a different routine kicks something to respond properly.

So, that's what I can suggest as this point.

ps  We hadn't talked much about turning off, waiting 2-3 minutes and turning on the Modem after each change of configuration but I know on my connection, this seemingly nonsense step cures ills and is about step 1 or step 2 in the "fix" list by their tech support.  You would think if it was so valuable they would put a switch on the front of the thing.
   
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by:kfrick
ID: 7028069
Yes, the turning off thing was a lesson learned a few months ago...

I wish I knew someone with a Linksys to borrow overnight .... I can't see spending good bux just to get the same results ...

Unfortunately, the ISP help desk is only open 9-5, and I'm at work during those hours. There are only two people who support this thing. And usually one of them is out at a convention somewhere....plus they already know me as a troublemaker (whaddaya mean it doesn't work, it works for me!)

I have removed WinPoET from one machine already, to test for possible conflicts. I will try the static IP address scheme with that PC to see if there is any improvement.

ISP, DNS, MAC, DHCP, ...... too many dad-gum initials!
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7075944
Kfrick

How are things progressing?  Any luck yet?  Can you take a moment and give us an update, I would appreciate it.

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by:kfrick
ID: 7075997
I have not yet tried the static IP, but I'm less than hopefull....

There is a feature of the DLink (i think) that will let me "clone" a MAC, I'm guessing that I can set the MAC of the DLink to the same as the MAC of my PC, maybe there is some magic happening there.

FWIW, my neighbor is also dissillusioned with the same ISP, and is 'sposed to be geting cable soon instead of DSL....

thanks for being interested...my ISP isn't!

-karl


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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7076052
No problem. I have seen that sometimes the mac cloning does improve the situation.  Normally this is the case in somewhat sophisticated ISP's, which yours does not sound like, but also they may have something enabled that can be overcome through the cloning that even they are not aware of.

Sorry to hear that the natives are restless and will keep an eye out on CNN for Neighbood STORMS ISP headlines.

What would you like to do at this point?  Keep the question open or close it now and open a new one at a later date after you have had more experimentation (frustration)?   Either way is ok, just trying to keep up to date on these.

ITsy
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by:kfrick
ID: 7076159
Well, let me at least try the MAC scheme and report back, then we'll put this puppy to bed, OK??

-karl
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7076431
Kfrick,

Sounds great and will look forward to hearing back from you when you have tried it out.

ITsy
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by:zuf50
ID: 7093414
There is a small program that claims to allow sharing of connections. I haven't used it myself but you might want to try it. It is at,
http://www.pppinfotech.com/pppshar.htm
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7114345
Kfrick

How we doing over there?  Haven't heard from you in awhile and was wondering what was going on?

Any successes, failures, weather?

ITsy
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Expert Comment

by:dudleylynch
ID: 7117809
Part of the problem may be that you are running winpoet on all the machines. If you are using D-Link 704, 704p,707, or 713p, PPPoE is built into the router and you must uninstall it from all computers. You can get all the info from d-links site faq. Search for set up for isp's that require PPPoE.

Scott
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by:dudleylynch
ID: 7117814
By the way I can't say enough good about d-link 704. It's fire wall is tremendous. I have not gotton a single hit since I hooked up 2 weeks ago.
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by:kfrick
ID: 7121641
Greeting folks....

I have had *no* good luck with the 704, or rather with my ISP....as I believe there is nothing wrong with the 704....

I have arranged with a neighbor to try the 704 at their house with their cable modem, as opposed to my DSL. Depending upon the results, I may be switching ISP's......

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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7122486
well now your gonna go over see the cable blazing speed and be so overwhelmed you will be be signing up before you leave their house. :)

Ok looking forward to hearing the results, and one additional note, if it does work as it should, call the cable support anyway and pretend it isn't, see how the response level is and attitude always worth checking before you make a switch.

ITsy
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by:kfrick
ID: 7122504
Hey, now that's almost underhanded.......I love it! It should *not* be difficult to surpass the support from CEI...

Actually, visitors who have used my DSL generally comment on it's fast response...soon we'll have an answer....

-karl

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by:kfrick
ID: 7141693
OK, so I took the DI-704 to the neighbor's cable modem, and we couldn't get that to work over there, either!
So I borrowed their Netgear RP314 (?) box, and it works fine at my house!

I found one configuration item that might allow the 704 to work with the cable, I'll still test that!

Anyone want a slightly used 704???

-karl
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7141920
kfrick

Heck you should be able to sell that really easy, well in any normal neighborhood (not within your own). And EBay is always open ;)

Now if your just wanting to get rid of it no charge, well then I will certainly stand at the front of that line.  ha ha ha.

I can't imagine what it is but hey now you know one that does work.

Let me know.

ITsy
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by:dudleylynch
ID: 7141952
Go into the main menu and do a factory reset on the 704. I have cable and it works fine. If your isp uses winpoet, the 704 has this built in, you do not run it on any of the computers.

Scott
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by:kfrick
ID: 7143285
Yeah, it all sound so simple! But I've tried everything several times with the 704, and no luck....I just plugged in the RP114 (I checked this time!) and it worked......
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7182587
Helloooooo Ken

Just noticed we past our two month anniversary on this question and want to wish you all the best.

Changed ISP's yet, changed boxes yet, ready to close this question yet?

Really how's things going and what's the latest.

ITsy
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by:kfrick
ID: 7183322
Howdy Itsy...

Thanks for the memory jog....

I switched to comcast cable modem, instead of mom-and-pop DSL.......fed the info into the 704, and we all surf gracefully now.

Thanks for following this thru. I'm glad the 704 will finally be performing the function for which I purchased it a year and a half ago!


I suppose now would be a good time to send this question to bed....

Thanks for all your support!

-karl


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ITsheresomewhere earned 200 total points
ID: 7183583
Karl

More than happy to have been of assistance and support.  Really glad you were able to retain your investment in the 704 and get that great cable action.  Now you better save your money for more drive space, cause with cable your gonna want to get every thing. ;-)

Again, glad to have helped and look forward to talking with you again anytime.

ITsy
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by:kfrick
ID: 7183780
Hope this was the right thing to do!
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by:ITsheresomewhere
ID: 7184157
Looks great and thanks.  

ITsy
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