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Question for SunBow only

Posted on 2003-03-04
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Just explain what is wrong with a question http://www.experts-exchange.com/Storage/Q_20538373.html
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Question by:msa2003
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14 Comments
 
LVL 8

Accepted Solution

by:
heskyttberg earned 1000 total points
ID: 8071267
Hi!

This is a classic school assignment, almost every Computer Student taking C, Pascal, C++ or whatever non functional language will get an assignment like this.

No matter where in the world they take the course either.
Besides there is not much practical use with this kind of program, that's why you can deduct it is some sort of school assignment/project.

There are a few rules on expertsXexchange, don't give full solutions to anything looking like a school assignment.
You can give some hint or tips, or links to general tutorials, since they are taking the class to learn not to copy allready finished work.

They shouls learn for themselves or tehy will utterly fail in later courses/classes that will build on the fact that they should know the mechanics of programming.

It's only to learn how to use rand and show that you can implement an sorting aglorithm in the programming language!

Regards
/Hans - Erik Skyttberg
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LVL 5

Author Comment

by:msa2003
ID: 8072786
As you can see, I didn't provided a complete solution. This is just an example of how the program could work. And there are a number of reasons why this answer could not be provided as an school assignment solution:

1. It is just a peace of program. It needs more code, such as main() function, user I/O, so on.

2. It is assumed that sorting order is from lowest to highest value. But in the real task it is allwais defined in the assignment.

3. Used straight search sorting algorythm which is not an optimal solution to this program.

4. This sample was provided as-is. I even didn't try to compile it.

I'm working close to the education. And I am a teacher myself. And I know what is a school assignment and what is not. If I'll ever receive such solution from a student i'll ask first:

1. How does it work?

2. Why I can't see it finished and working?

3. Why this solution differs from optimal solution described in the book or myself during the lessons.

I'll grade such work only if I'll receive a complete answer on such questions. Moreover, if I'll receive a complete answer which will show the student's knowledge, it is no matter for me who had really made this program.

So, dear Experts, I have some argument. There is your turn.

I'll award 250 points grade A to anyone who will make me change my mind or grade C to SunBow if nobody could.
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LVL 8

Expert Comment

by:heskyttberg
ID: 8074732
Hi!

I'm no teacher, I can only go to myself when I was a student.

If I had got a school asignment as that and got the code you provided I'd finished the assignment in 5 minutes instead of maybe one hour.

So I woldn't have had to think anything on my own.
Our teachers never gave us direct working code like that.
They could give pseudo code to show how that algorithm works, but we had to put that into C/C++ syntax ourselves.
That's part of the learning process, if you don't get that you won't learn anything either.

This is just my opinion in the matter.

Regards
/Hans - Erik Skyttberg
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LVL 5

Author Comment

by:msa2003
ID: 8075005
Thank you for your opinion but try to think different. When you open a C++ book what do you get? Examples! Nobody says that you should use such examples exactly in your programs, but everybody knows that the text with examples could be better understood.

When I describe something, not only to students, I allwais give some examples of how to implement that. I think that the student does not ought to change the world to make a program. And I learned programming myself step-by-step, using examples. The first I implemented them, the next I understood how to write'em myself. I think that learning programming this way student pays more attention to programming essentials than for realizing details. As an illustration of such the approach I'll bring you a little example. Knowing some programming essentials I had studied Perl language during 10 hours! This knowledge was anough then to write a commercial program.
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LVL 56

Expert Comment

by:andyalder
ID: 8075645
What does that question have to do with storage?
Are you related to Compaq's msa1000?
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LVL 41

Expert Comment

by:stevenlewis
ID: 8076492
the homework question is a grey area at best here, with different policies at different times, so it is hard to get a handle on it, but my rule of thumb is to have them post what they think it should be, and then try and help correct where they went wrong. The important thing is that they have demonstrated that they have tried to work thru the problem. I ask "what have you tried?", or "what do you think it should be?"
I also keep in mind, these people may end up working in the industry, and if hand fed, they won't make very good IT people.
If you give a man a fish they eat for a day, if you teach a man to fish, they eat for a lifetime
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LVL 5

Author Comment

by:msa2003
ID: 8082775
stevenlewis: Yes, you are right. The question is only how to teach. I think this question to be closed. I will award points to heskyttberg because he answered two times that is more than anybody.

andyadker: This question has no relation to storage devices but it is related to the question asked in this area. I have no relation to Compaq's msa1000. msa is my default login (first letter of my first name and initials), 2003 - random addon because user msa is already registered.
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LVL 24

Expert Comment

by:SunBow
ID: 8092083
andyalder,                :-)

msa2003,
Good job, thanx for review.

I would merely ditto good job of Hans were it not for the numerous other comments. So I'll add just a tad, "I promise".

Suppose the question were slightly different, simply about sorting in a bubble.

a) possibly, the less literate asker is not real student but some newbie trying to learn on own, possibly writing own game from scratch.

b) what is real vs what is not.

> Besides there is not much practical use with this kind of program

yup. I wonder, for fulltime teacher if it possible the real world can be obscured, after so many assignments, thinking some of the code is really usable somewhere. So many places where computers are these days, and so many applications.  But this:

>50 random numbers from 1 to 1000 using c++? also, i have to sort the numbers.

too simplistic, too impersonal, too incomplete, vaque, and brief. No hint of real.

Also look at all work of asker. Any other questions? (here: no)

Is asker literate enough to use prpoer TA: (here: no)

Is asker responsive? Any feedback saying yes or no concerning happiness with ANY of the resposes?  Often, a non-student will pipe back objection immediately after the first labeling of 'student'.  Sometimes even, a reals student will pipe back to explain that it is not code that is sought, but some helpful hints on parts of code not working.

But really, it is an art, not a science.
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LVL 24

Expert Comment

by:SunBow
ID: 8092086
> Title: Question for SunBow only

I just noticed that!?

All these other bodies in this thread? I must certainly be popular, huh?                             ;-)
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LVL 8

Expert Comment

by:heskyttberg
ID: 8093634
Hi!

:), You rock SunBow we all love ya, yeah, :)

Regards
/Hans - Erik Skyttberg
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LVL 5

Author Comment

by:msa2003
ID: 8093730
SunBow: I just noticed that!? - Too late ;)
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LVL 56

Expert Comment

by:andyalder
ID: 8094342
SunBow was last month's featured expert in the newsletter, he can summarise a 20 word answer into 300 words.

If you give a man a fish they eat for a day, if you teach a man to fish he takes away your supper with his factory ship, soon there won't be any fish left.

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LVL 5

Author Comment

by:msa2003
ID: 8094516
andyalder: I have no fish ;)
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LVL 24

Expert Comment

by:SunBow
ID: 8128580
We each gotta be good at somethin'                   ;-)
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