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Is this possible or not!?

Posted on 2003-03-12
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Hi guys!
We have Win2000 network in NYC with 2 W2K servers. The backup system we have is Compaq AIT 100/200GB. The size of the data backed up every night is about 150 GB (many projects and big graphic files). We also have another office in New Jersey. NJ office is connected to main office in NYC through VPN. Both locations have DSL. Is there a way to backup the data from NYC office to NJ (something similar to offsite backup)!? I tried and backup up small file through NT Backup and it worked. But considering the huge amount of data (150 GB and increasing) is that a solution !? If not what would you suggest. We are obsessed that the building may come down one day (not me personally). I have checked those offsite backup companies but for our amount of data would be very expensive.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks

P.S. Sorry for the points but that's all I have.
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Question by:cembi
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18 Comments
 
LVL 45

Expert Comment

by:patrickab
ID: 8121256
The cost of a tape back-up unit is low relative to the cost of creating the data in the first place nor by comparison to the heartache of closing the business because there was no back up that survives a fire or whatever. A commercial concern that values it's data so little is asking for trouble. The stats are that any business that loses its data due to a fire will file for bankruptcy within 12 months of the fire. Get that CapEx application signed without further delay!

Good luck
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LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:pratigan
ID: 8121456
Although tape backup is an option.  Have you looked into mirroring the data to the NJ office.  This would perform a backup solution for you.
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Author Comment

by:cembi
ID: 8121586
patrickab!
I honestly don't understand your point. Thanks anyway

pratigan!
I have not looked into mirroring data remotely. COuld you provide a little more info or links!? We already have Raid5 and Raid1 implemented on the servers.
Thank you
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Christopher McKay earned 160 total points
ID: 8121587
Based upon the description of your setup, I would have to recommend some form of onsite backup to removable media. (Whether this be a tape backup, DVD Rewriter, USB hard drive, whatever.) Even with a high speed DSL internet connection, it will take many hours to do a backup of 150GB of information across the net. (Math is as such: 150GB of data = 153,600 MB of data. Typical speed of DSL trasfer: up too (most likely not at your site, but possible)2.3 MB /s. So for the amount of data  you want to transfer, it would take approximately 66783 seconds = 1,113 Minutes or 18.5 hours.)
Considering your business would most likely be changing the data for 8 hours a day, you would not have enough time to do a complete backup via DSL before the data is changing again.

The fastest means of backing up the data would most likely be a USB hard drive. (Attach the drive, copy the information over, then remove the drive and take it to an off site location.)
Even tape backup would take a tremendous amount of time to complete.

For the amount of information you wish to backup daily, and the time constraints, I would recommend a USB Hard drive be purchased, or a review of the data that you want to backup. Is it necessary to do a complete backup daily? Or will it suffice to backup whatever has changed, and do a complete backup once a month?

Hope this helps!

:o)

Bartender_1
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LVL 34

Expert Comment

by:arbert
ID: 8121694
I take it the 150gigs of information in uncompressed?

You figure if you could see s 2:1 compression on most files you would only be backing up 75gig.  Also, this would be the full backup that is need only once--after that you do incrementals nightly and reduce the amount of data transferred even more.

I don't see why you would have a problem backing up over your VPN as long as your doing mostly incrementals and your compressing the data.

There are many commercial packages that would work great in this situation Veritas and  Arcserve for example.

Brett
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Author Comment

by:cembi
ID: 8121816
Bartender!
Thank you for the reply. I take the backup tape with me every night (as you may have noticed we already have a backup system in place, it completes in approx. 5-6 hrs). The USB HDD is a good idea. Also, regarding remote backup I would only need to backup daily changes (approx. 250MB). I just am not sure how to start it. Is there any program e.g. any Veritas or whatever that allows doing it !?
Thanks again
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LVL 22

Expert Comment

by:Christopher McKay
ID: 8121920
Veritas Backup Exec does a great job of creating backup jobs. They also have a great wizard and help file to assist with determining what is the best setup for you.

I (being paranoid) would prefer to be taking care of the backup locally, rather than trusting it on a computer somewhere else, but that's just my opinion, not based on any facts out there, if I was in the same situation.

Hope this helps!

:o)

Bartender_1
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Expert Comment

by:hkchilam
ID: 8121980
To answer your question, what you are looking for is
1) incremental backup of remote site.
2) all windows servers

There are two ways you can do it.

1) use a replication solution
VERITAS product - storage replicator.
Replicate remote windows data (servers, professional, etc) to a central site and use your favorite backup tool to back it up. It supports incremental replication and full replication, continuous or scheduled replication.

Legato has similar solution or you can check out a product called DoubleTake. I only have experience with VERITAS Storage Replicator (VSR).

2) use a delta file block level backup solution
VERITAS has a product called Netbackup professional. Essentially it backs up laptops (w2k prof, win98 etc) and do an incremental forever type of backup. Very efficient as it only backup changed block (delta file backup) and store data once only (single instance storage). Works well with DSL or even dialup link.

Problem? It does not support w2k Servers.  However, with registry key changes and knowing a laundary list of limitations, there are ways to use this product to backup w2k servers. Talk to your reseller or VERITAS representative on this.

Legato has a similar product called 'Connected TLM'.

Either 1) or 2) solution you should be able to get a evaluation copy of the product from the vendor to try it out first.

Last but not the least, check out a freeware called 'rsync'.  It works both in windows and unix environment. It basically does what 'storage replicator' does with a few limitations. (such as cannot replicate files that are larger then 2 gig. it used to be a limitation)


Check out the following website for RSYNC.

samba.anu.edu.au/rsync/

-Bruce
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LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:pratigan
ID: 8122032
I kinda agree with both solutions of a USB Harddrive for a full backup, possibly once a week, and then perform incremental backups directly to a remote site as I had previously stated and as Bruce indicates above...
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Author Comment

by:cembi
ID: 8122904
Bartender!
Thank you for the reply. I take the backup tape with me every night (as you may have noticed we already have a backup system in place, it completes in approx. 5-6 hrs). The USB HDD is a good idea. Also, regarding remote backup I would only need to backup daily changes (approx. 250MB). I just am not sure how to start it. Is there any program e.g. any Veritas or whatever that allows doing it !?
Thanks again
0
 

Author Comment

by:cembi
ID: 8122916
Disregard my repeat. Mistake.
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Expert Comment

by:Rob_2002
ID: 8123418
I can think of one slight problem to flaw you plan.

Do you have any idea how long it would take to backup 150gigs of data accross a DSL connection ?

:)

or have i missed somthing
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LVL 34

Expert Comment

by:arbert
ID: 8123775
if you look at the previous posts Rob, you'll see that this has been addressed....
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LVL 34

Expert Comment

by:arbert
ID: 8717927
What's the status on this question?
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Expert Comment

by:mmanoukian
ID: 8989686
hkchilam hit on the answer: delta file backups. We use delta file back ups through the internet. We back up about eight servers nightly in a few of hours, probably 75 gig.

It's important to understand how delta file backups work. The first time you back up a computer a full backup is performed. Subsequent back ups only back up changed data. Changed data is identified at the block level. If/when a file is changed, instead of backing up the entire file, only the blocks that are changed are backed up. By backing up only the changed blocks the size of the backup falls radically, so extremely that you can do things like back up multiple servers through the internet.

It sounds like an differential backup of blocks but it is not. Delta file backups are often backed up to disk not tape. The original full backup and subsequent delta file backups are all stored on the same disk media. Because the delta file methodology includes a sophisticated index/catalog mechamism, if/when you choose to restore a file as of day x, the backup software will will reassemble the blocks for that file as it existed on day X. Some of those blocks may be older blocks that have gone unchanged and some of them may be changed blocks dated up to and including day X.

These methods, backing up and restoring, are blisteringly fast. And, they can be administered remotely. It's great to be able to sit at my desk and restore a document instead of having to walk down to the server room and shove a tape in a tape drive.

So, what do you use as your backup server. If you only have one location you can back up to a dedicated "back up" server. If you have two locations, both with broadband access, you can back them up to co-located, dedicated "back up" servers. You can also back up to a service providers "back up" server. eVault for example provides on-line vaults. (We use eVault.)

Of course, you still want to implement some form of tape backup. For example, you'll want to put a tape backup drive on your "backup" server. In fact, I'd buy two, one as a spare. I mean what good is a tape if the only tape drive in which it works fails. And, they do fail;we probably replace one tape drive a year. (Moving parts break.)

Get a couple of Quantum 220's or 320's. They're expensive, but you've just saved yourself the hassle of buying a tape drive for each of your servers. If you are like us, you've accumulated your servers over the course of a few years your servers have all different types of drives and media. We have a couple of servers with unique tape drives. If those servers tank we'll have the data but we won't be able to restore it using any of our other servers.

Delta file backup methodologies also let you add material to be backed up on the fly. Implementing a backup plan for a particular computer no longer revolves around installing a tape drive. If you decide to back up data on a particular computer, server or workstation, then you just install the agent on the computer and it will back up to the back up server. Voila. This is particularly useful if you like to upgrade equipment somewhat frequently and if you have users that want to keep data on their notebooks for portability purposes.

Prices and offerings vary. We use eVault. eVault markets their offering as a service, but you can buy the software from them. Legato, EMC and Veritas (NetBackup not Backup Exec) are in this market space. I haven't been able to confirm whether or not Brightstor ArcServe will perform delta file backups or if there is another CA product that performs. I'm pretty sure that CommVault is a player in this market. I can name more if you need more. There's a whitepaper on www.infotechadvisor.com that I believe is free to non-members. Let me know if it's not and I'll get you more info.

Mark Manoukian
Director of Information Systems
Kegler, Brown, Hill & Ritter
65 East State Street
18th Floor
Columbus, OH  43215
mmanoukian@keglerbrown.com
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Expert Comment

by:uxphreak
ID: 9031479
CommVault is a very powerful application, and I prefer it to any other on the market thusfar.  Although I have not needed to backup over a WAN or the Internet, CommVault does what they call a Synthetic Full Backup.  All jobs are maintained by SQL, which CommVault uses to record and keep track of.  When a full backup is performed, everything that is backed up is referenced in SQL.  When incremental backups are performed, CommVault checks the database before it backs up a file to see if the file has been modified since the last full backup.  A Synthetic Full backup takes all the data from the last full backup and all the data from all the incrementals and consolidates them into one backup, thus creating a full backup.  By doing so, this dramatically decreases the amount of time needed to perform a full backup.  Since the Synthetic Full backup appears to be a full backup, this job is then labeled the latest full backup.  The next incremental backup will use the Synthetic Full as a reference when backing up modified data.

My configuration consists of a backup server with CommVault and SQL installed, a SAN to backup all data to disk, and an LTO Library for my Auxilliary Copies that copies the data on disk to tape.  The first full, all incrementals for 1 week, and synthetic full backups are on disk, and copies of all the data are on On-Site and Off-Site tapes.

David
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by:LucF
ID: 10246663
cembi,
No comment has been added lately (187 days), so it's time to clean up this TA.
I will leave a recommendation in the Cleanup topic area for this question:

RECOMMENDATION: Award points to Bartender_1 http:#8121587

Please leave any comments here within 7 days.

-- Please DO NOT accept this comment as an answer ! --

Thanks,

LucF
EE Cleanup Volunteer
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