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I increased voltage by .025V, and the PC won't start up

Posted on 2003-11-06
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Last Modified: 2010-04-26
I have an MSI K7N-2 Delta.  I took up my voltage for my CPU from 1.75 (standard) to 1.775 (+.025V).  That's not even a tenth more, which is where most overclockers begin!  I know of XP 2500 CPUs that run at 2.1V!  Anyway, I have an XP 2000 with a huge heatsink that has a copper core.  I only had my PC running for 4 seconds, twice.  I tried to start up with the BIOS reset the second time, and still nothing happened.

Could I have damaged my power supply?  It's an Xcase dual fan 460W thing I got from amamax.com for $17.

For the past two days, I have had my CMOS battery sitting outside of the case.  However, I'm still skeptical.  What should I do if my PC doesn't start up again?

Here's the summary of my question:
What's the standard voltage for an Athlon XP?  1.75, I am sure of it.  I set that and .025 more.  Then, I saved that and restarted my PC.  Now, I get no beep, no signal to my monitor, nor can I reset the BIOS to start over.  I waited only 4 seconds before I shut off my PC with the new voltage.  I tried to reset the BIOS, and that didn't work.  That added another 4 seconds to the running time, if the voltage wasn't reset by then.

Thank you,
Radomir Jordanovic
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Question by:radomirthegreat
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 9696656
umm are you sure that the standard voltage is 1.75?  I beleive that it is 1.65 .  I have a XP 2200 that the standard is 1.65.  However, it runs fine at 1.75.  After reseting the bios you should be able to boot up though.  
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by:guynumber5764
ID: 9696798
I'm almost certain that you haven't hurt your PSU.  Have you accidentally left the bios reset jumper on?  Removing the CMOS battery and closing the reset jumper will reset the bios almost instantly so there is no need to wait days.  Strip your board down to the absolute basics (ie: PSU, MB, Video, memory and CPU fan only).  If it doesn't POST after that, you know the drill...  BTW: CPU power (and heat) is ~voltage x speed.  You can just as easily smoke your cpu with speed as power.

Before you try this again, pls. read some of the links posted on the other thread.  They do things in baby steps and in a certain order to reduce (but not eliminate) the chances of toasting something.  
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by:Callandor
ID: 9701156
When you overclock, there is no guarantee that the combination of motherboard, cpu, and RAM will be able to handle it; it's more of a probability and sometimes the low probability case is what you get.  Your equipment should be ok; just find that reset pin (or remove the cpu and put it back) and you should be back in default settings.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9707544
So, what's the voltage of an Athlon XP 2000?  Speedfan told me it's 1.74-1.75V.  I've tried resetting the CMOS, and it hasn't worked.  What could have been damaged?
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by:Callandor
ID: 9707810
You have the right voltage.  Either the processor or your motherboard sound like they are gone - perhaps static electricity?
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by:_
ID: 9709044
Passing thought, have you tried holding the power button in for 4 to 10 seconds, or jumping the pins manually? The BIOS might be in sleep or hibernate.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9711535
Well, I can't seem to understand something.  When I try to boot up, I get long beeps and nothing happens.  This would be something like a long beep, nothing, a long beep, nothing.  Is this because of the ram?  I have tested two of my three ram slots after finding this out, and nothing happened.

Is my ram dead?  What would cause it to die?

I have no static electricity in my PC.  I use an Antec SX830 case, and I've switched the PSU to a 460W one.  Also, I haven't touched the motherboard or any of its components before and since the thing happened.

Thank you,
Radomir Jordanovic
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by:Callandor
ID: 9711551
Were you getting these beeps before?  One long beep sounds like it is a RAM failure: http://www.sysopt.com/biosbmc.html - even though you may not have actually touched anything, static electricity can be induced from a distance and could have zapped your memory.  Good prevention involves wearing an anti-static wrist band to ground your body completely, and you have to stay away from rugs in dry weather.  Test your memory in another machine, if you can.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9712297
I have an AK32E.  That's a KT266A chipset.  I'm quite sure the ram won't work in that PC, so if the ram also doesn't work in that PC, I still won't be able to tell.

No, I didn't get the beeps before.  I usually get a short beep and nothing else.  After that, I tap on DELETE and go into the BIOS.  So, could the beeps signal a CPU failure?

I tried, on my AK32E, to take out the ram and start up the PC.  I got the same results!  By the way, the AK32E is made by Shuttle.  It supports both SDR and DDR.  I have one SDR stick in there, so I'm stuck with absolutely no other DDR ram than mine, which I presume does not work.

Does the ram not work because of a motherboard defect?  Could the motherboard not even comprehend that?  Could this have happened even if I had not increased the voltage by .025V?

Thanks again,
Radomir Jordanovic  
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by:_
ID: 9712332
Here's a list of beep codes:
General beep codes ( yours maybe different )

AMI BIOS
1 beep Refresh failure
2 beeps Parity error
3 beeps Base 64K memory failure
4 beeps Timer not operational
5 beeps Processor error
6 beeps 8042-gate A20 failure
7 beeps Processor exception interrupt error
8 beeps Display memory read/write failure
9 beeps ROM checksum error
10beeps CMOS shutdown register read/write error
11beeps Cache memory bad

Award BIOS
1 short system boots successfully
2 short CMOS setting error
1 long 1 short DRAM or M/B error
1 long 2 short Monitor or display card error
1 long 3 short Keyboard error
1 long 9 short BIOS ROM error
Continuous long beeps DRAM error
Continuous short beeps Power Error
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by:_
_ earned 200 total points
ID: 9712357
>>>So, could the beeps signal a CPU failure?<<< I don't think so, cause bad CPU's usually don't let the mobo beep.

>>>Does the ram not work because of a motherboard defect?  Could the motherboard not even comprehend that?<<<    Maybe

>>Could this have happened even if I had not increased the voltage by .025V?<<<     Maybe. That small of an increase Rarely fries anything.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9712403
I'm on my AK32E computer now.  I've taken the DDR400 ram from my PC and put it in this one.  Now, this KT266A motherboard is running perfectly with the ram that was thought not to work at all.

All the 512MBs of ram are accounted for.  The DRAM clock, as the BIOS states on startup, is 200MHz.  Great!  This is running nicely in DDR!  So, no more PC-133, but now PC-2100 speed.

I'm very impressed by the time it takes to load Windows with DDR ram, as opposed to SDR ram.  The board is very stable with the ram at CL2.

What could be the problem now?

Thanks in advance,
Radomir J.
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by:_
_ earned 200 total points
ID: 9712511
>>>What could be the problem now?<<<   With the MSI?  Who knows.    mobo or cpu? Do you have some way to try the cpu on another mobo?
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by:Callandor
ID: 9714936
It does sound like either the cpu or motherboard are bad.  Were either one new?  In my experience, they have the greatest probability of failing when you start to use them.  Once they have been up and running for a while, they tend to be stable, unless you do something really bad to them.  Your slight overvoltage should not have done anything.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9717832
Motherboard - Brand new MSI K7N-2 Delta purchased from a local PC place, www.datastreamcomputers.com  The DataStream Computers store was robbed about a month after I got my motherboard from there, so the company that bought it out can carry out my warranty to its full value.  If the motherboard was damaged by overclocking, then the warranty is voided.  Because I only went up by .025V, considering overclocking damage would be naive.

CPU - OEM from www.portatech.com  I bought it with the super value kit or whatever.  It's the more expensive of the two.  The heatsink has a copper core (round), has strangely-shaped fins, and has a 70mm fan on top.  There is Artic Silver III thermal paste between the CPU and the heatsink, slopped on professionally by the guy at D.S.C.

When I first ordered the parts for my PC, my arsenal included a Shuttle AK32E.  I have come to understand that the manual is misprinted.  So, both I and the guy at DSC tried to follow the manual and could not make the motherboard work.  The AK32E was taken out and replaced by the MSI K7N-2 Delta.  I returned the Shuttle board to have it tested at www.pcrapids.com  They sent me a new board within 3 weeks.  I had the same problem, so I figured I might as well set up the board incorrectly, and I got it to work.  That board is now in my sister's PC.  When I had already paid for the board, I realized that I'd have to rebuild my system.  So, I paid the guy at DSC to put in the board, rewire the case, and install the software.

Do you know how good Alienware's wiring looks?  It's almost as if the PC's unfinished!  That's exactly how my PC looked!  That guy's a genius!

Since I had gotten my PC, I had tinkered with it, installing wireless LAN stuff, removing a CD-ROM drive, and so on.  It's been fun.  However, the PC worked, then I restarted it and upped the voltage, and it died.  Therefore, I could have experienced no damage.

There is one thing that crossed my mind:  I usually went to check on my voltages and see if everything's all right.  It always told me that my DDR ram ran at 2.7V, so I took it down to 2.5V.  People told me that 2.7V is more stable, but I went with 2.5V because that's the specified voltage of all DDR ram, right?  Was my voltage controller off?  My motherboard, upon having the CMOS reset, took the DDR voltage up to 2.7V.

Also an important thing to note:  I installed an Xcase dual-fan 460W PSU that I bought from www.amamax.com for $17US.  I noticed, after checking out speedfan, that my hard drive got .3V more from that PSU than from the previous one.  Did the PSU kill my motherboard?

Thanks again,
Radomir Jordanovic
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9717849
coral47:  I could try the CPU on the AK32E, but I'm kind of uneasy about that.  I'd have to go through the whole process of taking apart both PCs (kind of) to switch CPUs.  Also, this motherboard has a funky CMOS jumper.

What could happen if I do switch the CPUs?
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Callandor earned 150 total points
ID: 9718183
A voltage difference of .3V?  That is way out of spec!  If I had to suspect anything, it would be the power supply - $17 is not a good deal if it doesn't produce stable power.  Other people didn't like the seller either: http://www.resellerratings.com/seller2027.html  Never skimp on clean power - it can bite you later on.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9718605
Well, the hard drive is fine.  It just went up in temperature by 4C; it went from 21C  to 25C.  Also, the CPU voltage was 1.74V.  So, the hard drive's actual voltage was 5.3-5.5V on the 5V line.  I am going to return that PSU and get another one.  May I have some links, please?

I think one way to close this question would be to go through a Q&A that would, after certain actions, allow my PC to work.  By the end of this week, I should be able to get my old PSU back in my PC and then I could see what happens.

Besides putting back the PSU and the ram, what other stuff should I do?  Could I try putting in my sister's 800MHz Duron?  Why would this be a stupid thing to do?

Thank you,
Radomir Jordanovic
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by:buckeyes33
buckeyes33 earned 150 total points
ID: 9718825
here is an execlent PSU that I have and it is the quitest PSU that I have every seen.  It is quiter than any old PSU. Plus this place has free shipping.

http://www.futurepowerpc.com/scripts/details.asp?PRDCODE=CS_EMX_EG465P_VE_FC

if you don't need or want 460 watt here is the 350 watt of the same model.

http://www.futurepowerpc.com/scripts/details.asp?PRDCODE=CS_EMX_EG365P_VE_FC

with my 460 P/S i am have very good readings out of this unit.
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by:Callandor
ID: 9718953
I don't know if the Duron and the Athlon XP 2000 use the same voltage, so you might want to check that.  Testing it out with the Duron will tell you if the cpu or the motherboard are no good, but do it AFTER replacing the power supply.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9719028
OK...  I have a thermal pad on the heatsink.  Will it be good to go after I remove the heatsink?  I've reset the bios several times, or so I believe.  I'll switch the power supplies, send back the crappy one, and then see if my PC will run as is.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks a lot!
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by:Callandor
ID: 9719088
Make sure you have some kind of heatsink attached to the cpu so that you don't fry it.  You should be good to go.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9719191
Thanks a lot.  I think I should keep this question open until all testing is finished.  What do you think?  It'll take the next 2 days or so.
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by:Callandor
ID: 9719602
Sure.  Let us know what happens.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9725737
Thanks.  Should I start off trying to get the whole system going with the old PSU?  I don't see any danger in that.
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by:Callandor
ID: 9727794
I do.  I think that PSU was delivering bad voltage levels and may have fried your cpu or motherboard.  Keep the suspect out of play and let's see what works and doesn't work.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9727814
Crap.  So, $17 badly spent could have damaged a whole lot?

Please give me a link for another PSU.
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by:Callandor
ID: 9727904
I like the Antec power supplies for quietness and reliability - I think the 350 watt one should work for you:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&manufactory=1516&catalog=58&DEPA=0&sortby=14&order=1
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 9728333
I like Enermax.  This model is the quietest P/S that I have ever not heard

http://www.futurepowerpc.com/scripts/details.asp?PRDCODE=CS_EMX_EG365P_VE_FC

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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9735127
I had a 300W Antec PSU that came with my case.  Could 350W actually power what I'm planning to put in?

After future upgrades:
XP 3000 or 3200
1024MB PC-3200 dual channel DDR
Radeon 9800SE or Radeon 9500
Second 120GB hard drive
some USB stuff

I'll keep these:
K7N-2 Delta motherboard
first stick of ram
120GB hard drive
52× CD burner
5× DVD-ROM drive
wireless ethernet card
TV tuner card
USB 2.0 card
5 80mm case fans
1 expansion card cooler
2 80mm case fans blowing on PCI cards

That's the reason why I bought a 460W PSU.  I know that an average PC doesn't use more than 100W at a time, and I also know that all the components power up with the PC, taking up maximum wattage.

Is there hope for my motherboard and CPU?
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by:Callandor
ID: 9735299
Hard drives are the real power eaters, and you only have two (I have three, 2 120GB + 1 250GB, and at one time had four, but I consolidated).  Today's disks consume much less than old models, also.  The only other power consumer would be the Radeon card, but I have a 9500, the hard disks, and a 350W supply, and it still doesn't bother the supply.  You can add up the individual wattages and you wouldn't come close to the limit.

I don't think both survived; one is likely gone, but who knows - you may be fortunate.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9735390
I followed buckeyes33's link and found some 460W Enermax power supplies.  The price difference is not major; I could buy either one.  Which would you recommend?  When would it be absolutely necessary to get a 460W PSU?

Thanks again,
Radomir Jordanovic
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 9737012
I like like the Enermax because they run more amps on the 12V service then any other P/S on the market today.  That goes with both the 350 W and 465 W.  The 350 W runs 26A on the 12 volt service.  That would be plenty for your system.  If I could I would probably go back and buy the 350W even though I have 4 HD b/c they run more amps then any other 350 on the market that I have seen.  I might be wrong, but most other companys, including Antec have 18 or so amps.  And agian it is the quietest P/S that I have ever not heard.  
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by:Callandor
ID: 9739285
I also have a 350W Enermax and agree that it is a good brand and quiet - I use it in my theater.  The 26A doesn't sound right - see http://www.coolerexpress.com/en35egatxpow.html .  If you can afford the 460W version, go for it.  Someday you may want to build a terabyte video server :-)
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by:buckeyes33
buckeyes33 earned 150 total points
ID: 9740292
Here is the ratings for both the 350 and 465 model.  And yes 26A is correct.

http://www.maxpoint.com/products/pow_supp/spec_pg/3_465fc/3_465fc.htm
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by:Callandor
ID: 9741010
That's really strange - the spec sheets are almost the same, but those numbers are far apart.  Must have been two different people working on the copy...
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 9741239
Callandor the model that you were looking at is a different model then the one I gave him.  That is why they are so far apart amperage wise, but I don't know why they would be so far apart too.  Seems strange to me too. Here is the link about them from the website.

http://www.enermax.com.tw/product-01.htm
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by:Callandor
ID: 9741728
You're right - the "FC" version gives you fan control in suspend mode and 9A extra on the 12v line.  Why would they not designate a different model for such a dramatic difference?  That's over 50% extra max current!  The marketing department should have been all over this one.
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 9743152
I figure out the difference.  The model that you showed him is from the 1.1 line.  The one I showed him is from the 1.2 line.  So it is basically just an older model.  I could not find any thing about the 1.1 line on the enermax website.  
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 9743173
So basically the website that you found that at is selling it for a really hi price compaired to what it is worth.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9744420
Thanks for the input!  I seriously appreciate it.  I'm trying to work on my PC, but I'm tied up with work and homework.  I'll have a few hours available tomorrow.  That should help.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9754862
Update:

The video card works, the hard drive works, the ram works, and I lost my thermal paste, so I'll have to go out and buy some before I can continue.  The AK32E is really kicking around a lot of innocent people with its mind-blowing performance, even with the Duron 800.  I can't believe how stable and fast this is.

Also, the reason I got the 460W power supply was so I could give my 300W PSU to my sister.  She needed a new one, and I figured it would be a waste to buy another 300W PSU.  I found a really cheap 460W thing, and I used it quite nicely for about a week.  Nothing skipped, overheated, or anything, and the voltages weren't that far off of what the 300W Antec provided.  Eventually, the new PSU started getting a bit lousy and producing 5.4-5.5V on 5V lines.  What, do you think, happened when I increased the voltage?  Did my motherboard just let loose and fry?
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by:Callandor
Callandor earned 150 total points
ID: 9755163
Well, that's what good voltage regulators will do for you - keep the voltage steady under almost all circumstances.  It sounds like your motherboard was on the receiving end of voltage fluctuations, and couldn't handle it.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9757025
I read a question on here a while ago, and it wasn't that important to me at the time.  It was about a guy who had bought a PC from www.ibuypower.com and he wanted to know why it died.  It had an Xcase PSU.  The question, now that I have recalled it well enough, was about his PC just not working all of a sudden.  The situation was that there was some power, but not enough to boot up.  The fans were spinning, so he could tell that the PC was sitting idly.  However, it never booted up at all.  The accepted answer suggested buying another power supply, since Xcase was not well-known then, and practically not even now.  The PC worked fine after the new PSU was put in.

Could you relate that to my situation?  My motherboard doesn't recognize my ram.  That guy didn't say anything about long beeps.  I did some hardware fiddling earlier today.  I misplaced my thermal paste, so I'll have to find that or get some more before I test my CPU.

Don't we all love life's challenges?  I need to edit a bunch of video for Monday morning, so I won't have any time to wrestle with motherboard stuff.  If you'd like, I can close the question and open another one based on where I have come so far with this.

Thank you,
Radomir Jordanovic
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by:Callandor
ID: 9757630
Well, as I said before, after you get a new power supply, you may find that both your motherboard and your cpu work ok.  I would think that is unlikely, though, but it turns out that way, you haven't wasted anything, since they definitely don't work with your present power supply.

I think you have narrowed down the problem enough that you know what to look for.  It's up to you to make the call as to whether you were helped ot not.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9768176
I definitely was helped.  However, I'd still like to know what you think.  My speech project took a little over 24 hours over 2 days to edit on my sister's Duron 800.  It was so slow, in fact, that I overclocked the PC to 900MHz to get back a few more seconds overall.  It's back at 800 now.  I didn't take up the voltage!
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by:Callandor
ID: 9769072
If he had insufficient power and buying a new supply solved his problem, you can find out if your situation is similar by removing every power consuming item until you had a bare bones motherboard, RAM, and video card.  If it still doesn't boot, it won't with a fully loaded system.

I overclock my systems, too, but I use some high probability parts - I have one P4 1.6a running at 2.1GHz, and I have another P4 1.8a running at 2.4GHz.  No change in voltage and plain old PC2700 RAM in Asus motherboards, and an Enermax power supply.  I have had them running this way for over a year, and they have been stable and never gave me a problem (running at 50% increase in FSB DID give me lockups).
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9790586
I tried booting up with only my ram, CPU and video card plugged in.  The main thing I'd like to know now is what caused the ram slots to stop working?  Why is my tested and presently working ram not recognized on the motherboard?

Thanks again,
Radomir Jordanovic

P.S.  If you overclock a video card and keep it like that, the GPU could burn out.  Some guy with a GeForce2 GTS took up his card a whole lot.  After a few months, his games didn't start up and his screen had weird fuzzy things.  The verdict was that he had overclocked his GPU and kept it like that, so the thing fried.  Can't that happen with CPUs?  What are the chances of that happening if you have good cooling?  This is a minor question that requires only a single-sentence answer.  Please don't get crazy, unless you absolutely must.
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by:Callandor
ID: 9797120
In any electrical circuit, if you exceed the parameters it was designed for, you have a chance of blowing out a component (resistor, capacitor, transistor, etc).  An unstable power supply can do this, as well as power surges, static electricity, and lightning strikes.

Overclocking can fry a cpu, just like a gpu (they are really the same beast).  Cooling will help, but keeping the voltages in normal ranges would be best (for the reasons mentioned above).  Intel has had a history of overdesigning their cpus for a given speed (Celeron 300a -> 450, Celeron 566 -> 850, P4 1.6a -> 2.4), so statistically, it was a safe bet.  Some have speculated that the dies are the same and they are multiplier locked just for marketing purposes, but capable of the higher speed.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9821383
I'm so sorry I haven't been able to provide feedback.  I've been working a lot lately, and nothing has actually worked out as far as free time goes.  My sister is always on the PC.  I'll try to hurry up.
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by:Callandor
ID: 9855499
Radomir,

Be a good example and close this question if you have your answer.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9855533
Oops.  I thought I had already closed this.  How strange.  Thank you.

Current situation:
My sister's 30-day WinXP trial ended, so I got the AK32E.
I haven't yet gotten the thermal paste, so I'll wait until that comes about to test the Athlon.
I'm using a Duron 800 on a KT266A chipset currently.
My DDR400 ram is working fine at DDR200, CL2.
I re-registered my copy of Windows so that the motherboard change is legal.

Once I get the thermal paste, my testing will begin.  I'll use the old power supply and the K7N-2 Delta on a cardboard platform that I used to test the AK... 32E!  Ahem...  I believe the voltages are awry, but it just may be that the PSU died.  I don't want to test it with the Shuttle board.

Thank you,
Radomir Jordanovic
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9855572
I agree with resellerratings.com.  I once knew the URL very well, but I forgot it.  Thanks for reminding me.  That was, basically, the deciding factor.  Everyone's answers very very good.  Thanks for agreeing with me on the minute voltage difference!
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 9855614
no problem.
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 9855620
Tell use what happened after you test the system.
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 9855628
*Everyone's answers WERE very good.

I'll be glad to test my system and award another 500 points if necessary.
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by:_
ID: 9855695
Thank you much.    : )

< also waiting. >      : )
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 10189628
Oh, that took a while!  The AthlonXP 2000 checks out along with the rest of my hardware.  The PSU, I believe, still works, but I'd rather be in charge of milking 100 goats than try to use that thing.  Goats have mammary problems when they're not milked daily.

It seems that the motherboard is dead.  I have to look on the back of it and register the serial number written there, then I can try to have it repaired.  I'm hoping that, if they can't repair it, I can get a good deal on another board like that.

In the meantime, I will build a very well-crafted PC and sell it to get rid of some hardware.  I really need at least a 333MHz FSB!  I helped a friend build an XP 2600 system and it just doesn't seem right that he should have all the fun.  I'm thinking about an XP 2800, also at 2.08GHz as the 2600 is, but with more cache.

If all else fails, I found the K7N-2 Delta I have/had on newegg.com.  Unfortunately, that's $75US and I can get another nForce2 (KX18D or AN35N also on newegg) for $60.  The K7N-2 Delta doesn't have SATA support (not the one I have/had, which is also the $75 on newegg; there are many variations) nor firewire ports!  Aaah!
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by:_
ID: 10189768
Thanks for the update.

I could have gone a long time without being reminded about milking goats. Childhood memories  :/
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 10189862
Yes.  They get mastitis as soon as something goes wrong, it seems.  That's why it's so hard to take care of them!  They could very easily die from that filth!

My plans for now:
http://oldlook.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/Q_20861295.html
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 10189871
>Yes.  They get mastitis as soon as something goes wrong, it seems.  That's why it's so hard to take care of them!  They could very easily die from that filth!

Same goes with cows, except for the dieing part.  You have to love that cottage cheese. ;) Thank God they are gone now and so am I.  :)
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 10189895
I once ate Romanian goat cheese, and it was delicious!  Delicious!  It was in nice, unpatterned, white chunks!
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 10189977
I was talking about mastitis and how it looks like cottage cheese.  
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by:radomirthegreat
ID: 10190006
I just typed a random comment that seemed to go along with the thread... like this comment, for example!
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