Using a router without DHCP

I have a network of 20 users all running Win98.
One of the computers is runnig Windows Server 2003 to store everyones files.

They all need Email access.

I have a router and an ADSL connection.

All the IP addresses within the Network are set by myself in the range 192.168.0.(from 1 to 25)

What is the best way to connect the router to give these users access to emails.

And How will I then configure Win98

Thanks
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MoncapitaanAsked:
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LucFEMEA Server EngineerCommented:
If they're all in the same subnet, it shouldn't be a problem connecting them. The IP range is fine, just make sure they're all in the 255.255.255.0 subnet.
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LucFEMEA Server EngineerCommented:
You can also decide to create a DHCP scope on the server and let them all have dynamic ip-adresses

LucF
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PsiCopCommented:
Yeah, but for 20 computers, is it worth the trouble to have an extra layer of technology? That's a borderline case, IMHO. DHCP adds another layer to troubleshoot, and is that layer worth the nominal time being saved in setup?
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MoncapitaanAuthor Commented:
I agree with PsiCop, this Is why I didnt want to use DHCP.

And this is where my problem starts really.

If I set the router with an IP address and put it on the same subnet(Iused 255.0.0.0 - Is that ok?)
I could not get access to the internet from any pc?

Thanks
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LucFEMEA Server EngineerCommented:
try using 255.255.255.0 just to give it a try, the range you're using is a class C network.
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DexstarCommented:
@PsiCop:

> Yeah, but for 20 computers, is it worth the trouble to have an extra layer of
> technology? That's a borderline case, IMHO. DHCP adds another layer to
> troubleshoot, and is that layer worth the nominal time being saved in setup?

For what it's worth, I'd use DHCP even if I only had 5 PCs to maintain.  It is SO much easier once you have the DHCP server running (which also isn't a big deal).  When I need a machine to have a fixed IP, I configure the DHCP to always assign that computer the same IP.  That way, all of my IP maintaince is all in one spot.

Just my $0.02 (adjusted for inflation).

Hope That Helps,
Dex*
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PsiCopCommented:
For 20 machines there's no reason to use a Class A (255.0.0.0) subnet. The Class C (255.255.255.0) suggested by LucF is more than sufficient. That said, if everyone on the inside of the router uses the same subnet mask, it really shouldn't make any difference.

What you say "I could not get access to the internet from any pc?" what EXACTLY do you mean? Do you mean that you tried to ping a host on the Internet that you knew to be pingable and it didn't work? What was the error message?

Or do you mean that you brought up Netscape and tried to access a web page? What was that error message?

Have you tried pinging from the router to the Internet?

There are a LOT of possibilities - you need to provide a LOT more information about how the network is configured (the OS of the workstations doesn't really matter) and connected to the Internet.
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DexstarCommented:
@Moncapitaan:

> If I set the router with an IP address and put it on the same subnet(Iused
> 255.0.0.0 - Is that ok?)
> I could not get access to the internet from any pc?

The router should have 2 IPs.  One "remote" IP that is public, and the other that is private (usually .1 but that isn't absolutely necessary)  And then you'll need to configure each PC to use the router's private IP address as their gateway.  This is true with or without DHCP, but with DHCP, you'd be able to change all of the clients in one spot.  For now, if you want to change the gateway, you'll have to visit each PC.

Dex*
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MoncapitaanAuthor Commented:
Ok

Is it as simple as setting tcp/ip on the workstations to Gateway(the ip of router) and awayto go?
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LucFEMEA Server EngineerCommented:
Yes, it is that easy (I was really thinking the hard way I guess)
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bbaoIT ConsultantCommented:
why WITHOUT dhcp?

ok, let try it without dhcp, just use w98/2k/xp/2k3's automatic ip addressing feature APIPA to get ip automatically, range from 169.254.x.x 255.255.0.0. certainly, you should change your router's internal ip address to one in the above scope.

as for adding default gatway address (your router's internal ip address), you may add a "route add" command in the winstart.bat file in \windows\system.

enable the NAT feature on the router to allow all the internal clients to visit the outside.

hope it helps,
bbao
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MoncapitaanAuthor Commented:
I will try all suggestions when I get into work tomorow(yup SAT)

Many Thanks
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chicagoanCommented:
would not 192.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 encompass a couple if world routable addresses?
 
I agree with moncapitan

set your router's address to be used as the default gaeway in the IP configuration of your machines
it must be in the same subnet as the clients and should be in private ip address space
10.0.0.0/8 - Private Network addresses (RFC 1918)
172.16.0.0/12 - Private Network addresses (RFC 1918)
192.168.0.0/16 - Private Network addresses (RFC 1918)
and yes, DHCP will make it all happen like magic
169.254.000.000  169.254.255.255  are reserved addresses (APIPA) and meant for nonrouted environments where no dhcp server is available

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wyliecoyoteukCommented:
DHCP is a network admins gift

1.automatic adresses
2.automatic gateway info
3.automatic DNS info
4.even dymnamic WINS, lots of other options:)

the arguments against DHCP belong in the last decade.

We use fixed IP just for kit like printers, routers, scanrouters, servers etc.(and DHCP tells all our clients where they are!)

If you want to hand configure every PC on your network, and reconfigure every client every time you make a change of any kind. OK, you're paranoid, but that is your prerogative..

The other oldie is network logon scripts (who needs them?-everybody!)



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ThePowderedToastManCommented:
WINS is all you need for resolution here mon ami, simply set the server inside the lan behind the router and you have got it.  

NO DNS,
NO NAT,


Just set the server behind the router inside the LAN.  No muss, no fuss.

TOPTM

bbao, APIPA is not a feature offered in Win98.
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bbaoIT ConsultantCommented:
ThePowderedToastMan, i dont think so. in fact, APIPA's first release was with windows 98. for more information:

http://support.microsoft.com/?id=kb;en-us;220874

later,
bbao
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drev001Commented:
You don't need WINS for email\internet access

You DO need DNS

You DO need NAT

And finally, Auto addressing IS available in windows 98.
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bbaoIT ConsultantCommented:
hehe, drev001, agree.
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PsiCopCommented:
"the arguments against DHCP belong in the last decade."

That's the same foolish thinking as "Windows can do everything"

If I've got a 5-node network connected to the same ISP witrh the same IP addresses and DNS information for the past 3 years, tell me, what would have been the benefit of implementing DHCP? It just would have been another service to set up, troubleshoot, patch and maintain.

DHCP is a godsend, yes, for a network of any significant size, or one where critical network information is subject to change, or hardware is frequently changed/moved. But its not needed everywhere, and there are times where the effort spent to setup and maintain it is more than a static environment would be.
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chicagoanCommented:
hmmmm... random musings:

If the hardware is in place to support DHCP, entering the information into the typical broadband router take one mouse click.

On each workstation one must enter, at a minimum:

address: 12 digits
mask:     12 digits
gateway:12 digits
DNS:      12 digits

that's 48 keystrokes (not counting navigating to the pages to enter the information)

the effort in a 5 node network is 48*5 or 240 times more than implementing DHCP

I'm not a statistician, so can someone calculate the expeced error rate for static vs dynamic addressing for me, assuming a person of normal vision and average typing skills?

Please don't factor in the additional diagnostic benefit observing the behavior of dhcp /release /renew when things go wonky.

The labor involved in documenting machines and their respective addresses should be ignored as for one who undertakes this path, it is a labor of love, and a price cannot be put on love!
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PsiCopCommented:
Assuming, of course, you use your router for DHCP, or that you use the web interface, if it has one and you haven't disabled it for security reasons. YOu do know what you do when you assume?
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PsiCopCommented:
And as for the diagnostic benefit, I never said that DHCP wasn't worth implementing or learning. My thesis is that there can be situations where it isn't worth it to implement. If I'm in a high-security environment, for example, I may WANT every specific workstation to have a specific IP address. That's more than a mouse-click to set up in DHCP.

But we can go on all day with hypothetical situations. My thesis is simple: DHCP may generally be the best way to go for most networking situations, but it isn't ALWAYS, 100%, guaranteed to be the best way. Nothing is.
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ThePowderedToastManCommented:
bbao, drev001,

I stand corrected again on APIPA rollout, you live and learn.  But drev, why would he need NAT in this application?  Why doesn't he just put the file server inside the lan governed by his router?  He can use WINS res. for p to p and dhcp to get email access from the server.  The router is going to resolve traffic outside the LAN, that's it's job.  He doesn't need to NAT the link between the server and the router.
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bbaoIT ConsultantCommented:
for the reason of why I use NAT, is for internet access, not for internal LAN access. I think, drev should think so.
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bbaoIT ConsultantCommented:
btw, of course, we assume the email server is on the internet, not on the LAN. the local w2k3 file server is for file sharing.
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chicagoanCommented:
Moncaptaan,
Veuillez agréer mon amour.
Des excuses i pour parler!

>Moncapitaan (purportedly said):

>I have a router and an ADSL connection.
>All the IP addresses within the Network are set by myself in the range 192.168.0.(from 1 to 25)
>What is the best way to connect the router to give these users access to emails.

Set your router's internal address to an unused address on 192.168.0.0 (using the same subnet mask as the workstations)
Set the client's gateway address to the address of the internal address of the router.

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stevenlewisCommented:
or what it's worth, I don't use dhcp for small networks. It allows using lmhosts files.
I just set the static ip's, make sure that I have the correct gatewy specified, and of course dns servers
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bbaoIT ConsultantCommented:
hmmm... where is Moncapitaan? hehe, we should give comments to his/her questions, for his/her situatiions, not for our personal favorite technologies, so where is Moncapitaan? :))
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MoncapitaanAuthor Commented:
I am here!!:-) Just lmao (lighting the blue touch paper and standing well back)

It seems that I have opened a can of worms with my question.

For what it is worth I have not tested the suggestions as yet(I dont start work until 7pm).
I will let you all know the results tomorow afternoon.

BTW: I am not French,(I have taken the Handle of Moncapitaan from one of my favourite TV series, 50points to the first person to correctly guess it! Follow this link(I posted it here not to bloat this area off topic):
(http://www.experts-exchange.com/Miscellaneous/Puzzles_Riddles/Q_20805820.html)

And thanks for all your contributions/suggestions as I said I will let you all know tomorow

THANKS
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MusicManCommented:
No clue how to answer your problem, just posting here so I can have a guess over there - hope you don't mind :)
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alfomatCommented:
Hi,

when u manually assign the IP`s, u have to care about DNS and DefaultGateway

i.e.
IP 192.168.0.10 MASK 255.255.255.0 (the MASK has to be the same at all, inside your network)
DefaultGateway: IP of DSL-Router
DNS1: DNS-IP provided by your ISP ( NO 10.x.x.x or 172.16.x.x-172.31.x.x, 192.168.x.x)
DNS2: DNS-IP provided by your ISP

have fun
Al
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MoncapitaanAuthor Commented:
OK ***UPDATE*** after reading the posts on here I got it working.

I installed the router and gave it the address 192.168.0.59 on sub 255.255.255.0
This is the same sub as the workgroup and within the same ip range.
I switched off DHCP on the router.
I then had to add the routers ip address to GATEWAY and DNS Configuration within TCP/IP of each Win98 pc.

It works.

Could someone just answer why I had to also add it to DNS Configuration?

Thanks
MC
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stevenlewisCommented:
all tcp machines need a dns server to resolve domain names to ip addresses
we use domain names, but computers use ip addresses, the dns server resolves this for the machine. (won't go into hosts files)
when you use dhcp, the dhcp server gives this info to the machines, but when you statically assign ip addresses, you have to provide this info.
You could use the routers ip adress, or the dns servers provided by your isp
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bbaoIT ConsultantCommented:
yes, you should add dns configuration for each pc to access the external network, the internet, since the gatway uses NAT (Network Address Translation) technology to translate all your internal addresses to one public (external) address in order to make them reachable to other hosts on the internet. it is a transparent process, no need to add client software on the internal PCs. the internal PCs are likely on the real internet. so, what they need to access the internet are same as they are on the internal LAN.

DNS is basic for internet access, it maps readable name to ip address. so they need dns configuration.

with DHCP, you can make the process simple and easy to manage.

hope it helps,
bbao
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drev001Commented:
And to clarify, the reason you add the router's ip address into the dns settings is that the router acts as a DNS proxy. The router forwards all dns requests it receives from the lan on to the isp's dns servers. As the guys mentioned above, you could just add the isp's dns server addresses if you know them. If you don't it's easier just to use the router's address.
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DexstarCommented:
Congrats, Moncapitaan...  It wasn't so hard, now was it?

Dex*
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