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Cannot connect to mail.bigpond.com on port 25

Posted on 2003-11-24
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Last Modified: 2010-08-05
Hi all,

Big kisses and all my points (or just all my points) to whoever gets this one.

exchange bounces emails sent to bigpond.com addresses as follows

--------------------------------------

A mail message was not sent due to a protocol error.

      500 access denied; client-profile does not permit SMTP access
The message that caused this notification was:


      To:       <sifthisisgoingtowork@bigpond.com>
      From:     <anyone@anydomain.com.au>
      Subject:  Bigpond ams teh ghey

--------------------------------------

if i telnet to mail.bigpond.com 25 i get the following

"500 access denied; client-profile does not permit SMTP access"

and then disconnected


My ISP is TPG and they haven't heard of this.

Google search brings up a mailing list archive for WWII rubbish where someone else has the problem.  and that is it


If you need more information let me know


thanks
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Question by:goddamnyoubigpond
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26 Comments
 
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Expert Comment

by:ShineOn
ID: 9816062
Oooooh, I'm gonna tell your Mom what your ID is...

I don't know if you are new or if you're just slamming bigpond.com with your ID all the time, but you might want to reconsider your choice of ID if you intend to continue as an EE member.  That's kinda nasty, if you think about it.

Anyway.

You are not on bigpond.com, and are trying to send something to a bigpond.com address?

Or, you ARE on bigpond.com and you're SUPPOSED to be able to send all your Exchange email through their SMTP server, but are being refused instead?

You say your IPS is TPG, which implies the former.

Have you tried mailing to bigpond.com from a net account like yahoo.com or netscape.net or hotmail.com, or whatever, to see if maybe it's only your site being blocked?

Have you ever checked the blackhole lists to see if your address is listed in any ORB lists?  Perhaps you're not fully "clean" as far as mail relay is concerned, and a LOT of places blacklist addresses that show an open relay.  The messages returned from a blacklist block vary, so that could be what you're experiencing.  

Just a thought...
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9816074
That's not IPS but ISP... Dang these fingers...
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by:chicagoan
ID: 9816844
You say your ISP is TPG.
You should be relaying through TPG or your mail provider's relay.

The latter case usually requires authentication (or should), this is generally done through POP3. Once you've authenticated, your IP address will be allowed to relay for 20 minutes or so. Everytime you check your mail this renews. (this is the most prevalent scheme)

If bigpond is your email provider, they're the one to sort it out, otherwise use TPG's relay.


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by:chicagoan
ID: 9816859
sorry - hit the button too fast

So what you want to do is to set up exchange to use your ISP's mail relay as a smart relay.

Many hosts check a bunch of things before they'll accept mail:
IS the IP address the mail is coming from have a PTR record
  if it does does the A record have MX records
Is the IP address in a black hole database
Is the IP address in a database of dialup, DSL and Cable modem ranges, etc.

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Author Comment

by:goddamnyoubigpond
ID: 9834285
ShineOn, thanks for paying more attention to my ID than the question.  quite frankly, i don't care if you think i am nasty or not.  bigpond suck for MILLIONS of reasons, i use them for my home internet (cable) and they have all kinds of stupid policies (metered uploads, high prices) but hey, that is the price you pay for good service.  feel free to not comment on this issue anymore as it will simply be ignored.

chicagoan, thanks for your reply, I was really hoping someone would be helpful.  I will try adding the smart relay, but I don't know how this would have changed, this system has been working fine for years now.  The IP is not in any black lists, dns records are all good, the IP would be in a list of dsl customers, but not for bigpond.com - I can send to anywhere else, and everywhere else that i have tested can send to bigpond.com - I think i am going to switch ISPs anyway, so hopefully that will solve it.

I will test out the smart relay thing in exchange and accept your answer when it comes good


thanks again chicagoan
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9835164
My dearest goddamnyoubigpond,

Thank you for reading an insult into my editorial comment, and for further ignoring the rest of my comment, which was directed at solving your problem.  You have enamored me to your graciousness and I hope to work with you again soon.

Sarcasm aside, it is not a good practice to slam companies or people by taking a handle like you did.  The practice is nasty.  If you feel that makes you nasty, that's not my problem.   It's just that there are rules of conduct for this site and I'm not aware of any that condone "flaming through handle."  It doesn't matter a whit to me whether bigpond sucks rocks or not.   However, it does matter that they have "all kinds of stupid policies.

If you don't think I was helpful in the second half of my comment than that's your prerogative.  I disagree with you, and still contend that you may well be blackholed for that site.  If it turns out you're on a block list, ORB list. or other blackhole list that is causing this problem, and you choose not to accept my answer, I will protest.

Have you checked the ORB lists like I suggested?  It seems that you have.   Have you checked whether that bigpond address is reachable through other means, like I suggested?  It seems that you have.  How are those suggestions not helpful?  

One thing that you are missing is that the SITE could have your site blacklisted in its own, private blacklist.  Maybe they do that to people that say they suck, I don't know, but the ORB lists and other ban lists available for use aren't the only ban or block lists in existence.  Many sites have their own private blacklists that don't get published to the Web, and if they are as restrictive and unreasonable as you say, that makes me suspect that regardless of what they say, you have been banned.

I don't see how doing a mail-relay would help you at all, since this is the only mail server you're having problems sending mail to.

Is that helpful?
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Author Comment

by:goddamnyoubigpond
ID: 9835393
ShineOn, what do you want from me?

You have started a post from up on your high horse with utter sarcasm and then lectured me on what is proper in the EE guidlines?  If you don't like my ID, complain to the moderators.  Because if you aren't a moderator, I don't want or need you to "warn" me about policies (which you think are stupid anyway????).  If you think you are helping fix my problem, but I disagree - how does that make you right?  I have checked with ORDB and such blacklists, I have confirmed that bigpond.com is reachable from other sources.  I also did both of those before i had the "pleasure" of knowing you existed.  so, i ask you again, have you really helped?

ANYWAY, technically speaking, little miss helpful, I have noticed another port that refuses a connection; 110.  It comes up with a similar error

-ERR access denied; client-profile does not permit POP3 access

So how would a relay not help?  sure all of my mail would go that way which is not entirely necessary, but it would fix the problem.  which is more than I can say for your suggestion of an internal bigpond.com blacklist that I cannot fix.


and finally, no, it isn't
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9836554
Why would you need POP3 to bigpond?  What's your problem?  Why are you calling me a little miss, you asswipe?
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9836600
Rather than go running to the moderators complaining about your dumbass handle, I thought maybe you'd be mature enough to handle a gentle criticism instead.

In case you haven't noticed, I've got a bit of a problem with people acting like you have.  It takes great restraint not to succumb to the urge to flame your ass until it glows like a cherry.  But since we don't support flaming here - this isn't a chatroom hosting a bunch of middle-school girls - I am showing considerable restraint in how I am responding to your dumbass remarks.

Explain to me how a relay would help you to get to a site that has blocked you because you're a dumbass.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9839481
Since you are a home customer of bigpond, and apparently pay them big bux for their services, you, as a customer, should be able to request that mail from your TPG-based address not be blocked.  Explain to them that it used to work, but now it doesn't, and you have done all the legwork that you have done, so it has to be something that bigpond has done to block access from that address.

These things generally do NOT get fixed by requests from the site that has been blocked, but generally MUST be requested by a customer of the blocker.  If you convince the helpdesk-monkey that you have done all the work and eveything points to bigpond as the problem, maybe you can get it kicked up to a tech that knows more than the helpdesk script.

But since you are ignoring my suggestions and looking into mail relay when that from your descriptions of the problem wouldn't help a bit, I guess you won't do that and will continue to flail uselessy at the problem.
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by:chicagoan
ID: 9839620
golly
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9839698
Your lack of success with POP3 is likely because you're trying a client-type access to the bigpond mail server from a location that does not belong to the bigpond IP address range, which is also probably why you can't telnet to their port 25.  It probably has nothing to do with why mail from your Exchange server on a TPG address isn't getting through to bigpond addresses.
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by:chicagoan
ID: 9840017
>Explain to me how a relay would help

In an effort to curb spam, some mail administrators have implemented checks on source IP's ranging from simple reverse lookups, black hole databases, MX record checks, etc.

Your ISP's relay would generally take your mail by virtue of you being in their address space. Their mail relay likely has proper in-arpa records and mx records and is generally considered a reliable relay (Comacast and others have been black-holed - this is not a hard and fast rule) and won't turn up in a dialup-cable-dsl database. In addition ISP's are usually taken a bit more seriously when they contact one another with problems and have staff you're paying to work on these problems.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9840365
The only other possibility I can imagine here is that a relay through the bigpond server for mail intended for bigpond addresses is being attempted for some oddball reason, which would require authentication to the bigpond server.

The only reason to access SMTP or POP directly is if that server is serving your mail.  If another ISP is serving your mail, then it is quite unlikely that attempted access on telnet to 25 or 110 will work.

If you are simply using an email client like Outlook Express or Netscape Communicator, then you will be expected to authenticate your access to POP and SMTP.

If you are using Exchange and sending mail TO a site using your ISP's mail relay, then telnetting to that site's SMTP or POP won't be of use in troubleshooting.  

If you are trying to use one ISP's mail forwarder to relay through another ISP's mail forwarder then you're probably a spammer and shouldn't get help anyway.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9840396
If this questioner has no problems emailing any other addresses, and is using a different ISP than the one he/she/it is having problems getting mail to, then they are already either using a mail relay or a mail forwarder provided by their ISP.  Most ISP's don't let you serve your own mail without a forwarder or relay of their own in-between.  

Only the big companies that work with major internet access carriers like AT&T and Sprint can request that mail be sent directly rather than forwarded.

Non-telco ISPs and CLEC/ISPs usually provide a forwarder or relay as SOP and don't want to do anything that isn't SOP.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9840483
Hey, goddamnyoubigpond,

Just wondering - are you new to EE or is this a second ID and you've got another EE account?

If it's the latter, shame on you for bitching at me, because you should know that multiple accounts are against the rules.
If it's the former, shame on you for bitching at me, because you obviously don't know how things work here.

Regardless, I think I deserve an apology.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9840487
I think, that if we get no further non-flaming posts from goddamnyoubigpond, that that user should be suspended and this question be deleted.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?
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by:chicagoan
ID: 9840966
all the effort you put in, I'd look for a forced close
;)
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Author Comment

by:goddamnyoubigpond
ID: 9847397
wow, what a read.

anyway, i have obviously steered you down the wrog track with the problem shineon.  I will explain it again.

My exchange server, which sends mail via dns (so straight to other mail servers like mail.bigpond.com on port 25) via my link (which is on TPG not bigpond.com) is coming up with an error like the following

     500 access denied; client-profile does not permit SMTP access

as we have some external mail accounts for forwarding at bigpond, we cannot forward to certain staff.

now lets retort at some statements shall we

> Oooooh, I'm gonna tell your Mom what your ID is...
antagonistic, unhelpful, stupid.  were you hoping for me to get the ****s with you or accept your comments (which are helpful, if not just a little off target - which is probably from me not explaining the question enough)

> Why would you need POP3 to bigpond?
we also have email accounts with bigpond, hence wanting to receive the mail directly from said mail server.  this is done on the desktop, by the user with outlook express etc.

>Since you are a home customer of bigpond, and apparently pay them big bux for their >services, you, as a customer, should be able to request that mail from your TPG-based >address not be blocked.  Explain to them that it used to work, but now it doesn't, and you >have done all the legwork that you have done, so it has to be something that bigpond has >done to block access from that address.
I have spoken with three such technical support monkeys and the issue has been escelated to the point of being forgotten about.  I have since found out that bigpond do not use any public black list and more so, do not block any addresses (as a SOE) of TPG (so says TPG).  I have also queried as to the turnaround time of getting a new IP and pretending it never happened (4 days of downtime)

>Your lack of success with POP3 is likely because you're trying a client-type access to the bigpond mail server from a location that does not belong to the bigpond IP address range
has not and should not make a difference - try it, you should be able to telnet to both 25 and 110 of mail.bigpond.com

>which would require authentication to the bigpond server.
the smtp server does not even allow me to connect - i cannot give it a EHLO or HELO so could not authorize even if i wanted to.  this must me ip related for whatever reason.  so a mail relay would be excessive, but would solve the problem, would it not?

>The only reason to access SMTP or POP directly is if that server is serving your mail.  If >another ISP is serving your mail, then it is quite unlikely that attempted access on telnet to 25 >or 110 will work.
have you read what you just wrote? for pop3 i agree, if your mail aint there, what is the point of connecting (read above notes about our bigpond pop3 accounts).  but for smtp??? do you know how mail from one mail server gets to another mail server? i have 3 sites, all with their own mail servers, all sending and receiving lovely little packets of email goodness to port 25 (they use a dynamic range of ports for data, but SMTP is 25)

>If you are using Exchange and sending mail TO a site using your ISP's mail relay, then >telnetting to that site's SMTP or POP won't be of use in troubleshooting.  
if i could send to this site via my isps mail relay, i wouldn't have a problem would i?  i do not want to use a relay, and even if i did, i would still not be able to give users their pop3 bigpond mail

>If this questioner has no problems emailing any other addresses, and is using a different ISP >than the one he/she/it is having problems getting mail to, then they are already either using >a mail relay or a mail forwarder provided by their ISP.  Most ISP's don't let you serve your >own mail without a forwarder or relay of their own in-between.  
all emails from my exchange server are forwarded to dns, direct connections are established to the mx record mail server and so on and so forth.

>Only the big companies that work with major internet access carriers like AT&T and Sprint >can request that mail be sent directly rather than forwarded.
RUBBISH - go to www.zmailer.org/mxverify.html have a look at how email is sent through - heck, user bigpond.com as your test and watch the dns get checked, server located, connected to, and email sent - one of the reasons i was ignoring your comments was that you appear to have no idea how SMTP works

>Just wondering - are you new to EE or is this a second ID and you've got another EE account?
i had another account here about 3 years ago, but no longer have that email address, and forget my password.  so technically, i am a bad little boy with multiple accounts here for the sole reason of making your life difficult - sorry everyone

>Regardless, I think I deserve an apology.
for what exactly?

>I think, that if we get no further non-flaming posts from goddamnyoubigpond, that that user >should be suspended and this question be deleted.
sorry, you are claiming that I flamed you? LMFAO, scroll up

this is going no where, so if it continues that way i will have no choice but to issue you the points shineon, you have put in a lot of work - and although most of it has not solved the problem, you earned the points.  and chances are i will cancel this account (assuming you can) once this is over anyway
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by:ShineOn
ID: 9847968
1)  It would have been nice had you not made it like pulling teeth to get some of these details out of you.  Regardless of what you think of bigpond, it is not a nice handle, and I'll continue to assert that.  If you look at it objectivally, you cannot possibly disagree. My first post was primarily to try to get some of this information from you, but rather than answering my questions you got all pissy because I voiced my disagreement to your handle choice.

2)  You don't get a 500 message from an SMTP server unless that SMTP server has a problem with what you're sending.  The text of the message you received from bigpond is apparently custom to their mail server.  It can only be that for some reason, most of which we have covered in one way or another whether antagonistically or not.  If any of the steps you had already taken had been spelled out by you in your initial post, all sorts of BS could have been avoided.

3)  You got all pissy straight off as though this question had been open for weeks and you had recieved dozens of answers that were useless, and didn't want to deal with answering any questions to fill in the missing details just because of my comment on your handle choice.  You really need som xanax or something if you are really so thin-skinned as to take an obviously lighthearted comment the way you did.  I responded in kind.  Perhaps I shouldn't have, but I did, and you started the flaming with the little miss helpful jab, which would be offensive to anyone, but really raised my hackles, me being a 44-year-old male.

4)  I have a very good idea of how SMTP works.  Also POP3 and IMAP4.  And DNS, and firewalls, and mail-forwarding.  You decided to ignore my comments from the get-go, so don't go with that line of crap that any misstatements or misinterpretations in my later comments resulted in you deciding to ignore me.  *You* don't seem to know how email works if you say "all emails from my exchange server are forwarded to dns..."  DNS is only for name resolution and does not carry email.  Perhaps my comment about the non-carrier ISPs wanting to do mail forwarding was based on my own personal experience with the various carriers, CLECs and non-carrier ISPs in my area, so I withdraw that comment; I can't speak for how things are done in yours.

5)  I deserve an apology for your thin-skinned, pissy, antagonistic attitude throughout.  Starting with you offering "kisses" and points even though you have an obscenity in your handle, all sweetness-and-light, promising to supply more information if needed (which I asked for, btw) and then acting like a spoiled brat as soon as you get a lighthearted comment regarding your handle, ignoring my questions out of spite, calling names,  doing anything but answering any questions as you said you would.  

6)  This IS actually going somewhere.  You have *finally* given us a bit of information that helps make sense of some of your snotty remarks.  I don't want your points granted out of spite. I have been, and am still, trying to help you despite your attitude, and only want a comment from me accepted if it helps in any way.

7)  Since we finally have some information on how things are actually set up for your situation, I think that there might be some directions that can be taken.  If I might ask some more questions without getting a childish reaction, I am willing to continue to work with you, but I don't think this particular thread would be of much value as a PAQ.  We might want to ask to have this deleted, and start over fresh.
0
 

Author Comment

by:goddamnyoubigpond
ID: 9848054
it is my opinion that you are only offended by my handle due to your own religious beliefs, which i would never comment on.  however, i do not consider my handle offensive, due to my own religious beliefs.  i had no idea that this post would be received by someone that would take so much offense to my handle, nor did you have any idea that bringing up my dead mother would make me think you are just a child and not worth listening too.

with all that aside, i chose this handle because i was very dirty on bigpond at that moment in time, i chose this one as to me it seemed a lot less offensive than what i really wanted to use (use your imagination)

the bigpond server doesn't care what i am sending, more so it cares who i am
i do not have a chance to connect to the server, much less send it any information

i did not answer your initial questions as i thought they didn't require answering, although i just read it and think i was just mad.  my mistake

you think i am thin skinned and yet you are offended by my handle? alrighty then.

<QUOTE>*You* don't seem to know how email works if you say "all emails from my exchange server are forwarded to dns..."  </QUOTE>

it is an exchange function, forward all outbound mail to dns (OBVIOUSLY not to a dns server - it checks the mx records, finds the host and away we go)

i opened with a bit of a joke just to get things started, i was asking for help from people i don't know, if my handle was damnyoubigpond would you be happier?  you are offended by something that to me is merely cursing a fictional character - once again, alrighty then

like i said originally, you offended me - in my eyes personally.  you didn't know that you did but hey, i have a blasphemous handle and it is your personal crusade to right the wrongs of my herecy?

if you want to carry on this thread in a professional and amicable manner, i will be far more open to treating you the same way.  I am honestly sorry that my handle offends you so greatly, i wish i could change it as a way of showing you that i want to continue this at a higher level.

i don't think deleting this is necessary, can you rename accounts here? if not i don't particularly want to make another one
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Assisted Solution

by:chicagoan
chicagoan earned 25 total points
ID: 9848069
let's see...
If you telnet to mail.bigpond.com 25 you get
500 access denied; "client-profile does not permit SMTP access"

If I do it
500 access denied; your IP is listed by rbl-plus.mail-abuse.org

Makes sense, I'm on a cable network...

SO they're obviously doing spam checking based on IP address, as they can't do any sort of envelope info MX record lookup at THAT point in the SMTP dialogue.

So, as I see it, you have three alternatives:
I: Convince them to whitelist you.
B: Relay through a machine they do accept mail from. Configure your exchange server to use TGP as a smart relay.
3: Have this moved to the religion and philosophy forum.



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LVL 35

Accepted Solution

by:
ShineOn earned 100 total points
ID: 9848130
500-series errors only come from the server on the other end, and can be caused by various things, but should only indicate a "permanent" error.  The custom message you are getting implies, to me, that there is some sort of authentication server or IDS running in front of their mail server, that is denying you access from your source address regardless of what port or protocol you're using.

This use of "500" for an access-denied message isn't within the SMTP RFC spec, either, so bigpond.com is doing something funky on their end.   A "500" error regarding mail should only indicate a syntax error in the command received.  With HTTP, the "500" error should only mean the server can't complete the request because of an unexpected condition, not access-denied, so it isn't likely a redirect to a web server.  I'm not aware of any RFC's that allow authentication or authorization type responses with a "500" response, so they're playing fast-and-loose with the error code.

You are correct, I apologize regarding the telnet to port 25 at mail.bigpond.com.  I was able to telnet to it.

There is SOMETHING going on at the bigpond side of things, specific to your TPG address, that has nothing to do with RBL, reverse-lookup, DSL-range blocks, or any of the other common methods of blocking mail.  Those usually kick back as 550 errors anyway, with comments like relay not allowed.  If there is anything else you can give us about what's going on that might be helpful to avoid suggestions that you have already tried, please do so.  At this point I can only think of what you've already done, working through the 2 ISPs to locate the block.

Once again, I don't think a mail relay would help, because that would do nothing for your direct client mail account problems, and I don't see that it would be an exchange issue either.
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Expert Comment

by:ShineOn
ID: 9848168
There are general rules of conduct in civilized society that includes goddamned in the same vein as bastard, sonofabitch, go to hell, bite me and the like.  True, it is not as offensive as the sexual and scatological colloquialisms, but that has nothing to do with my religious beliefs.  And I did not think that my "ooooh, I'm telling" joking comment would get you all hot under the collar.

I ag my gnosts myself, so I assume by your reactions that you must be attacked a lot by religiosos.  Maybe that's why you saw red when I gave you that prod. It had nothing to do with the reference to "god."

I did react poorly to your poor reaction. I hope we can get past that and keep it professional.  If there is some goofy-ass thing in Exchange (and that is in reference to Exchange, not to you!) that says "forward to DNS" then, I guess.  It's not really what one  would expect to see when talking about SMTP mail in general, though, so it must be a goofy thing in Exchange.   I have tried to avoid using Exchange myself for a number of reasons including I Love You, Happy New Year, etc, etc, all the way through Code Red and beyond.
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Author Comment

by:goddamnyoubigpond
ID: 9848174
TPG (network management = non monkeys) have told me that telstra do not blacklist any of TPGs IP addresses.

Bigpond (tech support monkeys) have scratched their heads and that is about it.  Bigpond for you non Australians out there - is Australias backbone, so they just simply cannot blacklist all dsl IPs (from any carrier) from getting to port 110 - it just wouldn't work.

SO, i can only assume that somewhere, some bigpond monkey has blacklisted this IP address.

I have gotten a hold of a mate at TPG who i worked with when we were playing with fibre.  He told me that they can get telstra (read: bigpond) to whitelist this IP address.

I can't think of anything else to tell you guys, except thanks for your help, believe it or not i am thankful.

I will let you know as soon as i do as to what TPG tell me
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Author Comment

by:goddamnyoubigpond
ID: 9848192
I have accepted your answer shineon, you have helped me rule out heaps of things, thank you for your help.

I gave chicagoan 25 of the 125 points for telneting to the server and giving me proof to give to TPG that bigpond do actually use lists.  out of interest, can you telnet to port 110?

anyway guys, thanks for your help and for continuing with a thread that should have probably died long ago
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Join Greg Farro and Ethan Banks from Packet Pushers (http://packetpushers.net/podcast/podcasts/pq-show-93-smart-network-monitoring-paessler-sponsored/) and Greg Ross from Paessler (https://www.paessler.com/prtg) for a discussion about smart network …
Viewers will learn how to connect to a wireless network using the network security key. They will also learn how to access the IP address and DNS server for connections that must be done manually. After setting up a router, find the network security…
In this tutorial you'll learn about bandwidth monitoring with flows and packet sniffing with our network monitoring solution PRTG Network Monitor (https://www.paessler.com/prtg). If you're interested in additional methods for monitoring bandwidt…

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