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---> NETWORKING HELP NEEDED <---

Posted on 2003-11-30
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Last Modified: 2010-04-11
Calling All Networking Experts.

This TA is in Dire need of cleanup volenteers, If you are interested in helping with the cleanup effort please post to this thread.

As soon as we have a few volenteers Ill assign some date ranges for you to cleanup.

Your help is very much appreciated.

SpazMODic
EE Moderator
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Question by:SpazMODic
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by:lrmoore
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Any movement on the CV incentives that were "being worked on" back in April 03, "to be released soon" in May 03?
This CV is on strike until such promises are kept.
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by:lrmoore
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Way back when... in April for sure, there were promises of CV incentives
Here's one of them - how convenient..it's been deleted (but Mods can still see it)


http://www.experts-exchange.com/Mods_only/Q_20664354.html?
And another, that I can't see:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/CS_EAB/Q_20643695.html

Just do a global search on "CV incentives"

SpideyMod tried to help...we know how far that got..

YensidMod and I had a few exchanges.
7/20/03:
"We are working on some incentives for Cleanup Volunteers"
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Operating_Systems/Q_20654195.html
I single-handedly cleaned over 2500 old Q's myself for nothing, with the anticipation of "CV tools and incentives"..

How freakin' hard is it to award a CV a few points per Q just for cleaning them up?
I got so tired of doing all the cleanup for the measly few questions that were awarded to me during the cleanup, that I decided that the only ones I would clean were the ones in which I had a vested interest. It wasn't cool to post a CV list when all the Q's were either quick deletes, or points to moi'.. I was chastised for it and YensidMod helped out..At the time I was absolutely the most prolific CV on the site. I told YensidMod that I would not work CV any  more until the incentive plan was worked out.

Still, that was months ago and no progress. But we have a slick new look! That's what I call priorities...
Pretty up the site for the googlers and paying customers, damn the Experts!

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by:lrmoore
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Link to exchange with YensidMod that goes into a bit more detail, and agreement from YensidMod that CV incentives truely were "in the works" way back when:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Community_Support/CleanUp/Q_20707649.html
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by:ShineOn
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lrmoore, I think that is part of the process going on with the new PE, as well as the cleanup tools that BooMod has been working on.

I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that the problem with awarding CV points was, how do you tell?  Part of the changes with the cleanup tools, I believe, are changes in how cleanup comments are posted, as non-acceptable cleanup comments and not as Expert/participant comments.  IMHO, it was an issue of logistics.

SpazMODic, does that sound right?
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by:lrmoore
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I still think it stinks that the illusion of a promise was made, and now that it's not deemed necessary, screw us...

Hey, we need more volunteers for cleanup.
It's going a little slow, perhaps an incentive to help...
Good idea, incentives to be announced soon...
Keep up the good work, CV's, incentives coming out soon...stay tuned
Meanwhile, let's campaign heavily for more volunteers
More volunteers, need more mods, life is good
All these suckers working even harder for NO extra incentive
Life is great!
Incentives? What incentives? We don't need no stinkin' incentives.

It just all leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

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by:ShineOn
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YensidMod,

I have to concur with lrmoore's assessment of the situation.

Yes, the ultimate will be that once tools are in place, and every TA has a PE, you won't need CV's any more.  That's not practical right now, and you really should do something other than a pat on the head for the CV's that are getting you to that point.
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by:lrmoore
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I wonder what would happen with a few well placed ---> ATTN ALL CV's <---- posts with a link back to this thread.....
Mutiny?

I'm not going to stoop low enough to do that because I have too much pride in myself, but it has crossed my mind.

You might want to "hide" this thread from the GenPop...
Close it out, delete it, and continue the dialog direcly in email if you wish....



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by:lrmoore
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C101,
I have no reason to question the number of questions closed, what you have sounds about right. but 1 point per is a mere token gesture, not a real incentive.

Yensidmod,
What do the EE tools have to do with incentives?

I'm really not trying to be an ass about this, I'm just asking.

Cheers!
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by:lrmoore
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C101,
I have no reason to question the number of questions closed, what you have sounds about right. but 1 point per is a mere token gesture, not a real incentive.

Yensidmod,
What do the EE tools have to do with incentives?

I'm really not trying to be an ass about this, I'm just asking.

Cheers!
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by:ShineOn
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YensidMod,

Does that kind of tie back to my comment at 11:45 PM PST on 12/1?  Was I on the right track with that comment as far as the incentive program and the tools?
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by:lrmoore
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C101. No, I just wanted to make sure "I" wasn't comeing across as harsh...I didn't think you were at all...
I actually DO have a suggestion.
CV posts a cleanup list.
Mod finishes cleanup list
Mod immediately posts "Reward points for <expert>" with link to cleanup list
point value depends on length of list.
How about 10 points per.
25 Q list = 250 point reward = 1000 points

Is that so hard?
These reward point Q's don't have to go into the searchable PAQ. The points get awarded in the Cleanup TA -where they should be- so the CV's -TA experts- can even compete for top 15 CV's...

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by:lrmoore
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So what if a CV gets 120k points in a month! There are some experts here that do that anyway just using QP templates. I easily cleaned 100 Q's a day with just QP and CV templates. Again, the "tools" are irrelevant to the reward system. What about retroactive rewards where those tools were not available? Is is still fair that because there are tools available now (or at least will be soon, maybe), the reward should be less, so you can't make it more fair for those CVs past that didn't have the tools?

I have yet to hear details of any incentive plan other than C101's 1 point per Q / retroactive.
If you're going to shoot down a suggestion, you'd better back it up with a better one, with solid argument for it.

I don't buy your argument regarding contamination of the Cleanup TA. If a poster is not an 'official' CV, does not post a solid list, or otherwise attempts to contaminate the TA then no reward. Plain and simple. Setup the rules. Remember, for the most part you're dealing with the cream of the crop with the CV's. These are the most likely to understand and follow any given set of rules.
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by:lrmoore
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>but I see a lot of CV's who dont do what they say they are going to
>some of the highest ranking experts on the site have also abandoned their cleanup efforts

DOH! Isn't this the EXACT issue that we're trying to solve by giving these Volunteers a little extra incentive to:
1) do what they say they will when they volunteer
   It doesn't take a genius to figure out this isn't such an easy task, and can take a lot more extra time than they though

2) keep the highest ranking experts involved
   It doesn't take long to figure out that spending the same amount of time on a couple of high point questions is a LOT more rewarding than cleaning up a bunch of old questions that we don't have any vested interest in.



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by:juliancrawford
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I did not start doing cleanup expecting to be rewarded in any fashion - however some form of reward would be nice to reflect the effort put in by the cleanup crew.
I agree with Irmoore that it can take up quite a bit of time and effort and it is more rewarding looking for information relating to an new open question that you could be reward for expert points.

What the reward would be is another matter - as different CV's would appreciate different rewards.
Access to premium service could be a reward - if the CV has not yet earned that with the 10,000 points.
If the CV already has access to premium services then maybe they could have that service for the next 3 months without having to earn the 3000 per month to sustain the benefit.
Maybe a hall of fame for the CV's
And Expert Points are always appreciated :)


Just my 2 cents

JulianCrawford
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by:lrmoore
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OK, gloves are off now. Thanks Dan Rollins!

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Security/Q_20824784.html
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/WebDevSoftware/Q_20824782.html


An expert gets 2000 points award for beta testing CV tools..

I ask again: How freakin' hard is it to do the same thing for spending the quality time necessary to actually clean up 1886 questions?

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by:zenlion420
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Guess I'll listen to this one now too, since I'm the example.

j
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by:DanRollins
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I've cleaned over 10,000 abandoned questions in Visual Basic alone.  
   http:/viewQuestionHistory.jsp?mid=330221&orderBy=10&sort=1&start=1#asked

When I started working that TA, there were over 6,000 abandoned questions -- the worst TA on the site.  Now there are LESS THAN 2000 open questions in VB, for the first time in living memory.

Anyway, 10,000 * 10 * 4 = 400,000 points
That would put me above jhance in the HOF and help get his embarassing Profile out of sight sooner.

-- Dan
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by:ShineOn
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SpaxMODic,

>>I appreciate the Expert points you may be loosing while doing your cleanup work, I'll chase your outstanding question but please try and meet us in the middle<<

I might be viewed as a bit anal-retentive with this comment, but it is an ongoing "bug in my craw" in all sorts of fora  Too many people use "LOOSE" when they really mean "LOSE".


Lose: lose-  verb) -
 1. be set at a disadvantage
"This author really suffers in translation"
Synonyms: suffer

2. fail to win
"We lost the battle but we won the war"

3. retreat
Synonyms: fall back, drop off, fall behind, recede

4. place (something) where one cannot find it again
"I misplaced my eyeglasses"
Synonyms: misplace, mislay

5. suffer the loss of a person through death or removal
"She lost her husband in the war"; "The couple that wanted to adopt the child lost her when the biological parents claimed her"

6. fail to perceive or to catch with the senses or the mind
"I missed that remark"; "She missed his point"; "We lost part of what he said"
Synonyms: miss

7. allow to go out of sight
"The detective lost the man he was shadowing after he had to stop at a red light"

8. miss from one's possessions; lose sight of
"I've lost my glasses again!"

9. fail to keep or to maintain; cease to have, either physically or in an abstract sense
"She lost her purse when she left it unattended on her seat"

10. fail to get or obtain
"I lost the opportunity to spend a year abroad"

11. fail to make money in a business; make a loss or fail to profit
"I lost thousands of dollars on that bad investment!"; "The company turned a loss after the first year"
Synonyms: turn a loss
 
fail to keep or to maintain; cease to have, either physically or in an abstract sense


However:  


Loose: loose (adjective) -
 1. not affixed
"the stamp came loose"
Synonyms: unaffixed

2. not compact or dense in structure or arrangement
"loose gravel"

3. not tight; not closely constrained or constricted or constricting
"loose clothing"; "the large shoes were very loose"

 

loose (adverb) -
 1. without restraint
"cows in India are running loose"
Synonyms: free

loose (adjective satellite) -
 1. not bound or fastened or gathered together
"loose pages"; "loose papers"

2. casual and unrestrained in sexual behavior
"her easy virtue"; "he was told to avoid loose (or light) women"; "wanton behavior"
Synonyms: easy, light, promiscuous, sluttish, wanton

3. (of a ball in sport) not in the possession or control of any player
"a loose ball"

4. emptying easily or excessively
"loose bowels"
Synonyms: lax

5. not literal
"a loose interpretation of what she had been told"; "a free translation of the poem"
Synonyms: free, liberal

6. having escaped, especially from confinement
"a convict still at large"; "searching for two escaped prisoners"; "dogs loose on the streets"; "criminals on the loose in the neighborhood"
Synonyms: at large, at liberty, escaped, on the loose

7. not restrained or confined or attached
"a pocket full of loose bills"; "knocked the ball loose"; "got loose from his attacker"

8. freely producing mucus
"a loose phlegmy cough"

9. not officially recognized or controlled
"an informal agreement"; "a loose organization of the local farmers"
Synonyms: informal

10. not carefully arranged in a package
"a box of loose nails"

11. lacking a sense of restraint or responsibility
"idle talk"; "a loose tongue"
Synonyms: idle

12. not fixed firmly or tightly
"the bolts became loose over time"; "a loose chair leg"; "loose bricks"

13. (of textures) full of small openings or gaps
"an open texture"; "a loose weave"
Synonyms: open

14. not tense or taut
"the old man's skin hung loose and gray"; "slack and wrinkled skin"; "slack sails"; "a slack rope"
Synonyms: slack

 

loose (verb) -
 1. become loose or looser or less tight
"The noose loosened"; "the rope relaxed"
Synonyms: loosen, relax

2. make loose or looser
"loosen the tension on a rope"
Synonyms: loosen

3. turn loose or free from restraint
"let loose mines"; "Loose terrible plagues upon humanity"
Synonyms: unleash, let loose

4. grant freedom to; free from confinement
Synonyms: free, liberate, release, unloose, unloosen

I really would appreciate anyone that reads this to stop typing "loose" (luce) when they really mean "lose" (luze)!!!

Sorry, just hat to get that off my chest, and I'm sure this won't be the last time!!!
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by:zenlion420
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And how do you feel about people that use the word "hat" when they mean "had"?

>>Sorry, just hat to get that off my chest, and I'm sure this won't be the last time!!!

j
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by:ShineOn
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lrmoore -

>>An expert gets 2000 points award for beta testing CV tools..

Really?  I've been beta testing the fastCAT tool.  I did it without expectation of points.  Was not aware that any promise of extra points was made for participating in testing of CV tools.

I just wanted to help out.  If there are points I should get, I'd like to know about it.  Otherwise, I'll just keep doing what I've been doing, for my own personal satisfaction.  Any recognition is gravy, and I will not reject it, but it is not expected, and I don't know that a beta "volunteer" shoul expect any "reward" for their voluntary help.
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by:ShineOn
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zenlion420, that was an obvious typo.

I will not say anything further, so as not to raise AnnieMod's ire.
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by:ShineOn
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Oh, and  to zenlion420, I typed "shoul" instead of "should."  That is worthy of further ridicule.
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by:zenlion420
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>>Really?  I've been beta testing the fastCAT tool.  I did it without expectation of points.  Was not aware that any promise of extra points was made for participating in testing of CV tools.

I wasn't aware that any pts or reward would be given to beta testers either.  This wasn't something that was discussed with me.  I purely was doing the testing to help out, and speed the process along for BooMod.  The points given here were not an incentive, and I really don't care whether or not I have them.  I feel like it was a nice gesture from BooMod for the work that we did, but with all of the drama (not that I'm saying it's unfounded, I agree with basically everything I have read) the "pts for" Qs have already caused, I'm considering having mine deleted.  I have absolutely no use for pts, considering I have PS through my work as PE, but I do appreciate the gesture.  

j
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by:zenlion420
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:) ShineOn,

Thanks for pointing that out.  

j
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by:ShineOn
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To reiterate -

Beta testing the CV tool was done with no expectation of points reward.  It was to help out, and nothing more.

I still have this "anal-retentive" issue about the misuse of the word "loose" when the context clearly implies that the intended word is "lose."  All typos aside (including mine, 'cause I think faster than I type) this is usually not a typo, but a use of the incorrect word for the intended purpose, which seems to me to be exacerbated by the frequency of its misuse in Internet fora, without being corrected.

Some might say, "if the context clearly implies the word 'lose' when 'loose' is used, then what's the big deal?"

That is an overly-simplistic and fallacious position. relying on contextual implication to define a word, as opposed to use of the proper word for the contextually intended thought.  Not a 1:1 relationship!

Correlating speech with computer programming, that's like a programmer saying "sure, I used incorrect syntax, but the compiler should *know* what I wanted it to do, because I was kinda close to what I meant when I said what I said."

Enuf. (yes, that is an intentional misspelling of "enough.")

That has nothing to do with anything other than my personal diatribe against the misuse of "loose" in all-too-many fora.
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by:COBOLdinosaur
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From day one, cleanup was done by "volunteers" because they cared about the site.  There was only once that points were awarded for it, and that was never asked for; and a misguided attempt to reward those who have never asked for a reward.  

Now we see the same kind of greed crap that invaded the site spilling over into everything.

As far as I am concerned anyone who is only willing to do cleanup is something that I can't say on this site without being banned for life.  As far as admins and mods giving points of cleanup or anything else that helps support the site; all you are doing is futher damaging a community based on volunteer service without compensation.

G R E E D Y !   G R E E D Y !   G R E E D Y !  Nothing but greedy <expletive deleted>

It makes me ashamed to have had a part in starting the cleanup effort.  

Cd&
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by:COBOLdinosaur
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<Dinotype correction>
<original>
As far as I am concerned anyone who is only willing to do cleanup is something that I can't say on this site without being banned for life.
</original>

<corrected>
As far as I am concerned anyone who is only willing to do cleanup for compensation is something that I can't say on this site without being banned for life.  
</corrected>
</Dinotype correction>

Cd&
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by:lrmoore
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Cd&,
I take offense at your insinuation that I am nothing but a greedy troll whore asking for compensation for volunteer work. Name-calling is SO productive. If you read all of my discussions on this matter, I have but one agenda, and we probably agree on more than we disagree on. I'm here for all the right reasons. If that has not been clear up to this point, then I'll try to clear it up even more.

There are several issues that I have tried to highlight:

1. Promises were made, lip service paid, and nothing has been resolved. I've seen multi-million $ projects conceived, funded, and completed in less time than this discussion has been going on. In the interest of the community, I simply want resolution. If NM and others agree that there will be NO incentives then so be it. We can all get back to the real work at hand.

2. Rewards WERE made for seemingly minor efforts (zenlion and others, these comments are not intended to denegrate in any way your valuable contributions to the site), while the Mods keep singing to the tune of "we can't" reward CV's for their efforts. The point is, the Mods CAN and they DO. Such selective play is wrong. Period.

3. Reward points were awarded in the technical TA's. That was wrong. Period. I think you and I agree on that point.

4. Competition amongst the Experts has always been a big part of what this site has been about, else why have the HOF? Now we can earn Certs. What's wrong with a little competition in the Cleanup TA? How about a Master CV Cert? How bad would it be to have a Top 15 CV ranking, (of course you'd be at the top) especially if those CV points don't add to the overall HOF ranking? I think that you and I also agree that these type award points, along with loung points and other non-technical areas don't belong in the totals for the Expert HOF rankings. After all, 27 certs and 5 million points, along with $3 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks... how much "incentive" is that, really? Enough to be considered a greedy whore troll?





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by:COBOLdinosaur
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Sorry you don't like the greedy reference.  If there are experts on this site with a right to addressed this issue in such terms; I am among them.  

When SM broke the site and CS was buried in complaints I helped Darin by handling some of the CS threads, without points, tools or access to a lot of information; because the community needed help.  When it was obvious that we no longer had automation for cleanup and the DB was being choked, I helped start the cleanup effort in Feb 2001; not for points, but because the community needed the help.  I was among the early group of mods that came on the scene along with Wes, Lunchy and a dozen others; slightly behind C101, because the community needed the help. When the site failed and Austin asked me to help keep the community together while he re-built it, I agreed to be on the EAB not for points, but because the site and the community needed each other; and I took a lot of abuse for my efforts.

The fact that any member of the community needs an incentive to perform community service turns my stomach.  

1. Promises and lip service are SOP.  Austin will make sure that everything is made right for the community just as surly as Santa Claus will take care of you on Christmas.

2. It appears that the mods are not always subject to the rules, and the admins can choose to interpret rules to fit the position they have taken. That is not to say they abuse their position.  They do what they need to do to keep things running; but every "adjustment" to the rules reduces confidence in fairness and costs them support in the community.

3. Agree on that point.  I don't think it should be necessary to award points for community service... perhaps community service citations, like the certs in profiles would be more appropriate.

4. I don't think the points should be necessary at all, but if they are in the cleanup TA and not included for HOF rankings they are at least marginally acceptable. And if you are going to do that then I guess certs in cleanup are worth as much as any other cert.

Cd&
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by:lrmoore
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I see we agree on much more than you thought we might. To help quell your thoughts that I am being greedy, I might add that I have also volunteered to be a Moderator, not once, but twice (once with Linda, and once with NM), but I guess my services were not needed at that time in that capacity. I started my own cleanup efforts in the TA's that I frequent for the simple reason that it needed to be done, and nobody had approached me to volunteer (as was part of the "requirements" that I found later on). I was only recently asked by NM to be a PE, but declined the offer only because my time that I have to devote to EE is being overrun by my real work, and I am afraid that I could not do justice to the position. I never asked for nor expected anything extra for it--until it was offered.



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by:COBOLdinosaur
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Irmoore,

I was not attacking you personally.  I am attacking the idea that points are necessary for Community service.  Nor do you have to justify anything concerning your volunteer service on the site.  The primary difference we have is in what the points for helping the community represent.  In the past the necessary work got done and the necessary positions got filled because the members of the community cared about the site.

The trolls and whores know who they are, and don't really care; because they don't have a clue, beyond playing the stupid high school game that the site is being dumbed down to.  For some fun is getting points by any means.  For some fun is providing solutions to interesting problems. Cleanup and beta testing are just problems that need salving on a regular basis... if it takes points to get things done then I guess there is not much of a community left.

Cd&
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AnnieMod earned 0 total points
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Hello everyone,

The procedure changes a little. Starting from 7th of February, the period changes from 7 to 4 days.
So you need to change your scripts (so they say that the question will be close in 4 days)
And also the due date.

Thanks to all!

I also started a new thread:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Networking/Q_20876434.html

I need updates from everyone - on what range you are working :) And please post it in the new question.

AnnieMod
CS Moderator
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