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Boot problem

You're gonna earn your wings on this one.  Here's the background leading up to the problem:
Have been using win98.  Installed winXP on same drive in new primary partition as a FAT32 (easier interfacing with win98 and all my files).  Got XP set up  looking and running as I wanted (after about 2 weeks), regularly swithching between the two OS's (dual booting) with no problem.  Yesterday, I decided it was time to dump 98.  Now the trouble starts:  made XP the active partition (using Partition Magic) and rebooted as required. Whe XP boots up, this error message appears: ntldr missing.  I go hunting and can't find it either, not knowing, at the time that it (along with ntdetect and boot.ini)  are sitting in win98 root directory.  So I can't boot either OS.  I go back and reverse the process (make XP inactive, 98 active).  Now 98 boots fine, but when I choose XP, I get error messages: " xmnt 2002 program not found...autochk skipped" and "autochk.exe not found...autochk skipped."  These are blue screen error messages.  The computer then reboots. It will continue in this endless loop, if I let it.  I found the autochk.exe file, installed it in the win98 windows//system32 directory, which eliminated the latter message, but I'm still stuck with the "xmnt 2002 program missing"  message.  I tried correcting it thru:
1) XP cdrom restoration;  2) booting thru a floppy boot disk with the  critical  boot files (boot.ini, ntldr, ntdetect); and 3) perform a "fixboot" thru XP recovery.  none of which worked. And I found no other solutions online.   I did find out, in my search into Microsoft support, that XP/FAT32, will not find ntldr.  I guess I should've converted XP to NTFS before making it active.  Apparently, when I made XP the active OS, it screwed up the boot system and I've been unable to correct it.  In any event, I need to boot into XP.  I spent too much time setting it up and fine tuning it to lose it all now. Plus, I have updated files and software in there. I don't want to have to start all over again.  First one who comes up with the solution gets a new car!! (-:   Honestly, I REALLY DO NEED YOUR HELP!
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skuuper
Asked:
skuuper
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2 Solutions
 
stevenlewisCommented:
>I guess I should've converted XP to NTFS before making it active.  Apparently, when I made XP the active OS, it screwed up the boot system and I've been unable to correct it
yep, when you made the XP partiton active is what did it
you need to have the 98 part active
boot to a w98 boot disk, type fdisk from the prompt and make the 98  partition active
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stevenlewisCommented:
On the 98 partition is the MBR and the bootstrap routine
when you boot, the bios does the POST, and then passes the boot routine to the MBR (a special part of the hard drive). the MBR tell your machine where to find the files for the next part of the boot, in a dual boot scenario, it goes to the boot.ini
this is where you get the choice between the two
If you choose XP, it goes to the ntldr, & ntdetect.com, then it goes to the OS files (located on your XP partition
If you choose 98, it loads the bootsect.dos file and then the OS (c:\windows)
by changing the active partition, now it can't find those files (the MBR doesn' t point to them anymore)

the other way would be to load in the XP cd, boot to it, and choose repair
and run fixmbr and fixboot
http://support.microsoft.com/search/preview.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q314058

install and use
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;307654
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stevenlewisCommented:
OK, just re-read your Q, and you have changed back
try the fixmbr and then the fixboot from the recovery console
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
When you load XP (and its system files) in a different partition, it still loads the boot files into the active partition, which was your W98 partition.  This is called the System Partition.  (The System Partition is where the boot files are located - ntldr,boot.ini, etc. -  The Boot Partition is where the system files are located - Windows folder...  I know this may sound confusing, but that is how they name them).  

Like Steven said, XP needs these boot files to load the OS and the system looks to the active partition for them.  You could try this though.  Format a floppy with a XP Operating System (a must!) and copy ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect from your W98 partition.  Then try booting from this floppy.  It should boot then directly into the XP OS.

Hope this all helped.

FE



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skuuperAuthor Commented:
Thanks for the quick response.  It's late and I'm beat, so I'm gonna follow thru with your input tomorrow.  Besides, I have some questions regarding some of your suggestions.  Talk to you on Tues.... Skuuper  
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Good idea.  The day has caught up to me too.

Night all.

FE
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Orientgal19Commented:
Why cant he just repair XP after he delete the 98 partition?

I had an experience with XP and it wont load up with missing dll and registery after I deleted ME off my Harddrive but the repair fixed the boot and all missing dlls

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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Orientgal...  I believe that was what Steven was referring to...  He should be able to repair it using the Recovery Console and the fixmbr/fixboot commands.

FE
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Orientgal19Commented:
Morning Fatal,

No I mean a repair install of xp, unless he/she knows how to work the console but not everyone recommends unless you are comfortable.

I see you had given alot of answers, I was reading on your comments.  I took some of them and shared with my fellow techies.

Not on this answer of course but others.
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
As I am fairly new to this site (not a lot of questions answered) I am finding it quite a learning experience, and a great way to discover new things.  Hopefully, I can contribute my fair share and give back some of what I take out.

Thanks for the honorable mention, Orient.  I do appreciate it.

And you are right regarding the Recovery Console.  It is not for the feint of heart.  :)

FE
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Orientgal19Commented:
I for myself, had experienced with the recovery console, boy you would wanna know what went wrong lol I lost so much data, I ended up reloading all my o/s, that was a tough lesson, from then on, if something is wrong, reinstall and repair instead ;)


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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
No backups?  Shame on you..:)  Just kiddin, of course.

Even worse, I had to try to fix a system where the EU had gotten into the RC and could not remember what they had done.  Did that ever teach him a lesson, as you can imagine.  Wipe and reinstall.  :)
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Orientgal19Commented:
yes shame on me, playing with my computer and experimenting lol but it was a good lesson.

I can imagin what he had learn lol I was reading some comments last night, I was laughing so hard, people are being misguided and done worst, but good help are always good when its the right one ;)

I fixed a computer once, omg I swear I was about to tell him to get his checkbook out and find another one, he had 2/3 of his system infected with virus and trojan, after cleaning it out, come to find out, the hd was dead lol I mean bad clustersssssssss, a 40GB with only 23GB was usable, I told him get 3 when you see a good sales lol he wonders why, I told him if you wanna play dangerously atleast play safe  


 
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Check out the TechNet Newsgroups if you really want to get a laugh.  
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Orientgal19Commented:
Got a link for that?
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Sure.  You will find links on the page for different areas of help needed.

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/newsgroups/default.asp?url=/technet/newsgroups/NodePages/winxp.asp

But I think you will find the questions here a little more challenging.

FE
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Orientgal19Commented:
ty ;)  

btw what field are you into?

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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Project Mgmt is my preference, but when I found that my techs knew more than I did, I decided to get up to speed on the technology end.  Now I deal mostly with Network Administration and Security, although I assist occasionally in the training dept. of our consulting firm.   I even pull wire and setup racks when the need arises.  Whatever it takes, eh?

FE
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Orientgal19Commented:
WOW sounds like you get your hands full all day at work and still have time to be on here, cool ;)
lol I dont work til after midnight and it sucks lol
but its a job that pays the bills, I get some crazy questions at night, one I was working on for 4 hours, come to find out she had hooked her wires up wrong and wonder why her system wasnt working OMG if it was another tech she talked to, I wouldnt wanna know what they had done with her.

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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Hopefully the market will get better and we can all start making some decent $
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Orientgal19Commented:
lol I was reading on your posted question, and someone recommended ERD, good investment :) I use it  
very helpful but does get myself in alot of trouble too

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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
LOL

Whatever happened to Skuuper?  Did you solve the problem?
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Orientgal19Commented:
lol hes lost somewhere I think
hope he find his way back

Or we might have to search his HD for him  lol
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
Boy, you've been havig a good time here.  Comcast had a major hiccup and I've been unable to get online until now.  I have no time to work on this stuff tonight.  But I guarantee I'm gonna be hard at it in the morning (unless Comcast gets sick again).  So you'll be hearing from me.  

P.S.  If I could climb into my HD and fix the problem, I would.  I've got plenty of shovels, screwdrivers and sockets.  But then I might get stuck between the partitions.
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
:)  Good to see you back on line.  We will pick it up in the AM then.

FE

BTW:  Used to manage a region that included techs contracting to Comcast.  Hiccup is putting it mildly.
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Orientgal19Commented:
I hate cyber hiccups, I wonder if holding its breath works lol

Good to see you are back and up

I think Fatal got a tweezer somewhere to drag you out lol


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stevenlewisCommented:
skuuper, how are we doing on this?
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
Time for one quick question - If I do a fixmbr (I've already tried fixboot) could that possibly stop me from booting into EITHER OS?
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stevenlewisCommented:
>If I do a fixmbr (I've already tried fixboot) could that possibly stop me from booting into EITHER OS?

no, you will still be able to boot
I still beleieve that your XP partition is now hidden
did you make the partition magic boot disks? boot to them, and see what it says about the partitons
report back to us (before the fixmbr)
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stevenlewisCommented:
all my research on "xmnt 2002 program not found" points to the XP  partition being hidden
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
I have partition magic boot disks for win98;  did not yet make them for XP.  I used those disks to inactivate XP  when I initially made it the active partition.  Yes, XP is still hidden.  My inveistigation has led me to believe that if I make XP and 98 visible at the same time, I won't be able to boot to 98.  

As per partition magic:

 If your hard disk has more than one primary partition, only one is visible by default. When you use the Set Active operation, PartitionMagic unhides the selected primary partition and hides other primary partitions. While you can unhide more than one primary partition, we recommend that you do not.

You must be careful when unhiding primary partitions. In general, you should not make two primary partitions on the same physical hard disk visible at the same time, as this can cause data loss in some operating systems.

Also, why is it so critical to format an XP boot diskette wth an XP OS?  Is the formatting that different from 98?
.


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stevenlewisCommented:
> My inveistigation has led me to believe that if I make XP and 98 visible at the same time, I won't be able to boot to 98.  
Not true at all, I have 98 on my first part, XP on my "G:/" and w2003 server on my J:
and all parts are unhidden
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stevenlewisCommented:
Unhide it, you'll like it LOL
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stevenlewisCommented:
You can only have one active, but they need to be unhidden. that is the reason for your error
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
OK! That's what I was wondering.  First thing tomorrow, I'm on it.  I'll be back at'cha.  Thanks
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Regarding formatting that floppy.  This came from an article I read a couple months ago with a tip regarding creating a bootable floppy for XP.  To tell you the truth, I cannot actually remember the reasoning behind using the XP OS to format, but the article stressed the fact that for this to work, you must use XP.  After the format, you can copy the boot files to the floppy.  I suppose I could test the theory, but since I am not running anything but XP.....  :) The formatting is the same (Fat12), so I just really do not know.  LOL, eh?

Hope Steven solved your problem.  Sounds like he hit it squarely.

FE
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
OK Gang, here's where we are:  XP is now unhidden.  I performed a fixmbr and then fixboot.     All boot files are where they belong (in C:\(Win 98) and the autochk.exe file is sitting in E:(WinXP)Windows\System32.

Now when I boot into XP, I get a new bluescreen message: "Partition Magic for Win2000/XP is complete.  Setup is being restarted..."   It will continue in an unending loop like this.   I went into Partition Magic and found nothing unusual with XP settings.  And yes, I can still boot to Win98. (Obviously...if I couldn't, you wouldn't be reading this note).  And no I don't yet have an XP formatted boot floppy - only one formatted on 98.  But I'm wondering if that's really going to help me solve the problem, anyway.  

What's the next step?
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Regarding your problem, the floppy would not solve it.  I have never had PM do that to me, so I am not sure what the problem might be, but I will give it some thought.

Hmmmmm.  Steven?  :)

FE
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
I was surprised to see it too. And I'm using the latest version.  At least I was able to access XP thru Explorer and move some critical data files.  (Steven....Help!!) :)
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stevenlewisCommented:
I'm at work, with a very slow dial-up, but off the top of my head
try to boot to safe mode (XP) press F8 choose safe mode
If that doesn't work, from the same screen try LKG (last know good)
meanwhile when I get home, I'll research some more on this issue
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
OK, I give it a shot.  I'm going to be out this evening, but if you come up with anything, post it and I'll check it when I return.
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
I'm back on board with XP.  I'll give you the lowdown tomorrow.  I've gotta go out now and won't be back till late.  In the meantime, you can decide who get s the points and who gets the car. :)
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stevenlewisCommented:
Great news! You'll have to let us know what you did. As far as the points and car, that's up to you, you decide who helped the most (or split the points)
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Ditto.  Just glad to have you going again.

Happy Holidays, wherever you may be.

FE
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
Ok, here's what happened. As per Steven's suggestion, I booted up with the cd, hit F8 and then clicked on the Restore option.  I don't think I did a Recover.  I had tried that before and it didn't work. (But then, XP was aslo hidden at that time).  It proceeded to essentially reinstall XP.  Now being able to boot into XP, I found our that Drive Mapper did a pretty miserable job when I unhid XP - it didn't reset the drive letter any of my .exe files or shortcuts.  Fixing that manually, while not difficult, was quite tedious.  But, in any event, XP is up and running with loss of ony one relatively unimportant piece of data...so far. There could be some surprises waiting for me - Bill's software is good at that).  

Now, one last question:  In order to remove win98 without flotzing up XP again, should I just reformat C:(win98)?  Will that automatically make E:(XP) active and reset it as the C:\ drive?  Annnddd... will it then boot up properly?  The three XP boot files are currently sitting in the root directory of C:\.  Also, while this may be irrelevant, XP is currently formatted as FAT32.  I can accomplish all of this using Partition Magic..if you thinnk that's a good idea.  I can also convert XP to NTFS thru PM.
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Looks like you are almost there!

Check here for removing the W98 OS:  http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;285480

It is pretty simple.  Just do not delete that partition, since it holds your boot files.

Editing the Boot.ini file is also pretty easy.  Best way to get to it is through the System Properties > Advanced >
Startup and Recovery window.  Press Edit button to view the Boot.ini file.

Let us know how it works out.

FE
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
Thanks...I'll be back.
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Okay..  Arnold...  or should I say Gov?  :)
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
Question:  this is my boot.ini file:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect
C:\="Microsoft Windows"

I should  change the (2) in the 3rd and 5th lines to (1) and also delete the last line.   And according the the url you referenced, the only other thing I need to do is delete the Windows (98) directory.  At that point, the XP boot files, currently in C:\ will become part of XP, since, upon rebooting, XP will then become the system boot partition (that being C:\).   Does this all sound right? And will I have to remap the drive or will that happen automatically?  If I sound apprehensive, I am.  I don't want to screw this up again.  
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
:)  

Not quite.  This is the ARC path notation and tells the boot where the system files are located.  As long as you are keeping the system files (XP > \Windows) in the second partition, leave it at (2).

Delete the reference to C:\Microsoft Windows

Delete the W98 folder from C

That should do it.  

FE
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
What happens on reboot, then.  Is XP automatically going to appear as the C: drive?  Or is it going to require another redo of the boot.ini to accomplish that?
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
boot.ini has nothing to do with the naming of the drives.  It is just a 'locator' telling how and where to look for the OS.

After reboot, everything will (should) look the same.  It should boot straight into XP.  When you look at Disk Mgmt, you will see 'C' marked as the system partition, and 'D' as the boot partition.  Just remember that your boot files are on C and DO NOT delete that partition.

I know that messing with this will make you hold your breath.  It happens to me every time I do it (and I have done this more than a few times).  Say a little prayer and push the button.  :)

FE
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
I guess to answer your question... ahem

XP will actually be located on your D drive.  Remember, your system files can be anywhere, it is where your boot files are located that matters.  

:)
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
One other thing I just thought of.  I have a data partition, D: - what happens to that?
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Ok.. what exactly are your partitions on Drive 0?  And where is your XP system files again?

C=W98
D=?
E=?
etc.

And remember, you are not renaming or deleting any of your partitions.  Just deleting the W98 folder and any reference to it in the boot.ini file.

FE
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stevenlewisCommented:
Boot to XP, right click on my computer, choose properties, click on advanced tab, startup and recovery settings, make XP the default, and set the time to "0" (zero), set the time for recovery to 30 secs
then go to c: and delete the windows directry there (this is your w98)
Do NOT format c:
If you have no programs loading from c:\program files then  you can delete that too. You will have to selectively delete the folders that you don't need on the c: drive
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stevenlewisCommented:
YOur XP will still be on E:, your data will still be on d:
YOur computer doesn't care what letters are assinged, and will be quite happy with XP on E:
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
OK.  But ultimately, I want XP to be my C:  drive.  I guess I can use PM to remap it later on.  

I've gotta run, so I'll play with this tomorrow.  Thanks again for the help.  Talk to you later, and I get the points out to you both.
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
You can chg drive letters via Disk Mgmt.

See ya tomorrow.
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stevenlewisCommented:
> But ultimately, I want XP to be my C
why? If you want that, there are two, maybe three ways
1. install XP on C: (either as a fresh install, or an upgrade to 98)
or 2.
HOW TO: Change the System/Boot Drive Letter in Windows (Q223188)

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;223188

Please note

This article describes how to change the system or boot drive letter in Windows. For the most part, this is not recommended, especially if the drive letter is the same as when Windows was installed. The only time that you may want to do this is when the drive letters get changed without any user intervention. This may happen when you break a mirror volume or there is a drive configuration change. This should be a rare occurrence and you should change the drive letters back to match the initial installation. NOTE : Please be aware of the following issue related to drive letters:

then see here

Unable to Log on if the Boot Partition Drive Letter Has Changed (Q249321)

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q249321

3.
manually copy ntldr and

ntdetect.com to the drive

switch  hard drives so that the XP drive is the primary IDE drive,  use the bootcfg /rebuild option



Have not tried this method, therefore can't gurantee it


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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Steven, I agree with you completely here.  There should be no reason to want to change the drive letters.  The system will work just fine the way it is.

FE
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
I'm probably gonna take care of this stuff over the weekend.  In the meantime I'll distribute points.  If I can figure out how, I'm gonna add more points and distribute as follows:
Steven:  400
FE: 250

Is that OK with you?
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
If it is all right with Steven, it certainly is fine with me.  He did most of the work here.  I would be happy with just an assist.

The main thing is that we got your problem taken care of and that you are satisfied.  

Have a great Holiday Season.

FE
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
Do you know how I can add points before I split them?

Also, are you familiar with broadband telephone service?
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
I pulled this down from the FAQ page:  http://www.experts-exchange.com/help.jsp#hi14

"The maximum number of points which can be offered for any question is 500 points. If more than one Expert contributes to the answer, then this total is divided by the Asker appropriately by splitting the points.

If an Expert provides extraordinary help in resolving your issue, then it is permissible to assign up to 500 additional points by creating a "Points For" question. To do this, create a new question in the same topic area with the title "Points for [ExpertName] re: Question XXXXXXXX". In the body of the new question, post the URL of the original question. Then return to the original question and post the URL of the "points for" question. "

Perhaps a moderator (or someone who has been here a while) can help you more with this...???

Regarding Broadband Telco Services, are you speaking of VOIP?

FE
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
Not sure what VOIP is.  This is local and long distance broadband phone service as a replacement for your standard service.  It's much cheaper.
Check out this site: http://vonage.com/.  I've been hearing a lot about it.  
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
VOIP=Voice over IP

For a small business (< 50 users) it works great.  Have a client that uses it and they are very happy about the service.  All their Internet and Phone service is handled by the same ISP, which is also nice for billing organization.

For a larger company, say 500 or more, it is not quite that simple.  VOIP requires that packets do not get fragmented in the ethernet, so bandwidth may be an issue.  In fact I have another client (700 users) that implemented it through a service provider and they are having a great many issues there.  Fortunately, they have a good SLA (Service Level Agreement), and a nice pool of attorneys.  :)

Hope this helped.

FE
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stevenlewisCommented:
skuuper, glad it's working for you now!
FE, it was a pleasure working with you on this one
Steve
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skuuperAuthor Commented:
We'll see how things go over the weekend, flushing out 98.  I don't anticipate any problems though.  Thanks for your help
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Fatal_ExceptionCommented:
Enjoyed it myself, Steven.  Am sure we will be working together again real soon.

Skuuper, am sure you will do just fine, but if not, come on back and we will work it through.

FE
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